That's what I'd like to know.

The only thing I know is that they use botrytized grapes (not even sure
what kind of grapes), that they ferment it to a relatively low alcohol
content (10-11%), and that it has quite a bit of residual sugar. Can
anybody provide some other details about this wine? Like, what is the
initial Brix? What is the final Brix? How do they stop the
fermentation, or does it stop naturally before all the sugar is
consumed? Why does it age well considering the low alcohol content?
Thanks in advance for any information.

Franco,
I can help you when I get back to Pittsburgh, I'm in your home state
right now. I have some books that talk about Tokaji Aszu and my
neighbor is Hungarian so I've have several examples; both communist and
the more recent. All were unbelievably good.

As I recall it's made with Furmint grapes in a 30 gallon barrel; the
number of Puttonyos (I know I butchered that) on the bottle is the
number of 'pails' of botrytis infected grapes they add per barrel. 3
is good, 6 is great and hard to find over here in the US; over that and
it's called Essence in Hungarian. The pail is this leather bucket they
wore on their backs while picking the grapes, literally one at a time.
It dies on it's own. This wine was made well and was famous way before
the French version, Sauternes.

Joe

Franco wrote:
> That's what I'd like to know.
>
> The only thing I know is that they use botrytized grapes (not even sure
> what kind of grapes), that they ferment it to a relatively low alcohol
> content (10-11%), and that it has quite a bit of residual sugar. Can
> anybody provide some other details about this wine? Like, what is the
> initial Brix? What is the final Brix? How do they stop the
> fermentation, or does it stop naturally before all the sugar is
> consumed? Why does it age well considering the low alcohol content?
> Thanks in advance for any information.

Joe:

I posted the same question on winepress.us and I got a good link:

http://www.funkcity.demon.co.uk/tokaj2.htm

My understanding of the Tikaji Aszu is as follows:

They start with a 136-liter barrel of base wine (13-15% alcohol, but
what kind of wine? dry, sweet?), then they mash between 3 and 6 puttony
(20-25 kg) of botrytized grapes to a pulp. Then they pour the base wine
over the dough and they mix it well. They soak that for 24-36 hours and
then they press. Then they pour the pressed wine/juice on a cask and
they leave it partially empty for 1-3 months. I assume that later they
top up the cask and let the wine mature for a number of years that is
equal to the number of puttony plus 2. I think that the base wine is
also made from Aszu grapes, but the grapes used for it are not
botrytized, although this is just a guess.

Here in Austin there is a wine store called Grapevine Market that has
three different labels of Tokaji Aszu, all 6 puttony, and priced in the
$70s.

The reason why I'm inquiring about Tokaji Aszu is that I'd like to try
to make a batch following the same procedure. No, it won't be made with
botrytized Aszu grapes, and no, I won't be aging it in a Hungarian cask
from a particular forest and that has already been aged for 12 years,
but nevertheless I intend to go through with this experiment. Instead
of botrytized grapes I'll use raisins. Instead of a Hungarian oak cask
I'll use a carboy and Hungarian oak cubes. The main question right now
is: what should the base wine be like?



Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Franco,
> I can help you when I get back to Pittsburgh, I'm in your home state
> right now. I have some books that talk about Tokaji Aszu and my
> neighbor is Hungarian so I've have several examples; both communist and
> the more recent. All were unbelievably good.
>
> As I recall it's made with Furmint grapes in a 30 gallon barrel; the
> number of Puttonyos (I know I butchered that) on the bottle is the
> number of 'pails' of botrytis infected grapes they add per barrel. 3
> is good, 6 is great and hard to find over here in the US; over that and
> it's called Essence in Hungarian. The pail is this leather bucket they
> wore on their backs while picking the grapes, literally one at a time.
> It dies on it's own. This wine was made well and was famous way before
> the French version, Sauternes.
>
> Joe
>
> Franco wrote:
> > That's what I'd like to know.
> >
> > The only thing I know is that they use botrytized grapes (not even sure
> > what kind of grapes), that they ferment it to a relatively low alcohol
> > content (10-11%), and that it has quite a bit of residual sugar. Can
> > anybody provide some other details about this wine? Like, what is the
> > initial Brix? What is the final Brix? How do they stop the
> > fermentation, or does it stop naturally before all the sugar is
> > consumed? Why does it age well considering the low alcohol content?
> > Thanks in advance for any information.

> Instead
> of botrytized grapes I'll use raisins. Instead of a Hungarian oak cask
> I'll use a carboy and Hungarian oak cubes. The main question right now
> is: what should the base wine be like?

Franco,
I don't want to rain on your parade but Hungary was under communist
rule for quite a while and if they could have made Tokaji Aszu that way
a lot of people all over the world would have been doing it a long time
ago. They didn't; if anything current methods are sometimes less
correct now. Anyways here is the deal.

Aszu describes the shriveled berry; it's not the grape variety. Each
Puttonyo is a six gallon container. That container of berries gets
'mashed' (in the old days by foot) until a dough is created; the skins
have to be just right for this to happen. A gonc is a 30 to 35 gallon
barrel to which the dough is added. the normal levels are from 3 to 6
puttonyos. I have had 3, 4 and 5 puttonyos and can tell you if I ever
made anything that good I might just quit. Most were made under
communism, (you can tell by the way the crown looks on the label).

They mix all of this together in large tubs and then into the barrel it
goes. They can last several hundred years, really.

The base wines is usually Furmint but can also have some Harslevelu and
Muscatel. It's just plain jane wine grapes; Furmint is not anything
special as far as I am concerned; I would say it's kind of like a good
Chenin Blanc. (Not that I have had many, it's hard to get Hungarian
wines over here in the US unless you are talking Bulls Blood.)

Instead of raisins which could give you a cooked taste you might want
to freeze some white grapes and remove the water by dripping; or use a
really good white concentrate. You need to get to 40 to 60% strength,
the trick would be deciding how much to add if you use concentrate.

The way I read this they dump the 30-35 gallons of plain white must
into a tub and add x puttonyos to that. That gets mixed up and once
fermentation starts they put it in some sort of bag and tread it again;
that goes to the barrel and sooner (actually much later), Tokaji Aszu.


This is not going to be Tokaji Aszu but so what; it could be great.

The best book I have seen on this is my Hungarian neighbors, "The Wine
Book" by Dorozynski and Bell. I borrowed it and need to get it back to
him...

Hope that helps,

Joe

Thanks Joe for the extensive reply. One thing that I'm not clear about:
do you ferment the base wine just like a regular wine, and after it's
fermented you mix it with the "dough"? Or do you ferment everything
together? I would think it's the former, because that article that I
referenced in a previous post mentions that the base wine used has
13-15% alcohol, which implies that it's already made.

Another thing that I don't understand is: if you added a bunch of sugar
to a regular wine, it would be bound to start fermenting again. It
would most likely not ferment to dryness because the alcohol % would
become toxic for the yeast, but I would think that the alcohol level
would go up, not down. However, the Aszu wine has 10-11% of alcohol and
they start with a base wine that is 13-15% alcohol. The article I
linked has a one-sentence explanation for this, but I didn't understand
it.

Finally, why is Tokaji Aszu able to last up to hundreds of years? Very
few regular wines can last more than a few decades.


Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > Instead
> > of botrytized grapes I'll use raisins. Instead of a Hungarian oak cask
> > I'll use a carboy and Hungarian oak cubes. The main question right now
> > is: what should the base wine be like?
>
> Franco,
> I don't want to rain on your parade but Hungary was under communist
> rule for quite a while and if they could have made Tokaji Aszu that way
> a lot of people all over the world would have been doing it a long time
> ago. They didn't; if anything current methods are sometimes less
> correct now. Anyways here is the deal.
>
> Aszu describes the shriveled berry; it's not the grape variety. Each
> Puttonyo is a six gallon container. That container of berries gets
> 'mashed' (in the old days by foot) until a dough is created; the skins
> have to be just right for this to happen. A gonc is a 30 to 35 gallon
> barrel to which the dough is added. the normal levels are from 3 to 6
> puttonyos. I have had 3, 4 and 5 puttonyos and can tell you if I ever
> made anything that good I might just quit. Most were made under
> communism, (you can tell by the way the crown looks on the label).
>
> They mix all of this together in large tubs and then into the barrel it
> goes. They can last several hundred years, really.
>
> The base wines is usually Furmint but can also have some Harslevelu and
> Muscatel. It's just plain jane wine grapes; Furmint is not anything
> special as far as I am concerned; I would say it's kind of like a good
> Chenin Blanc. (Not that I have had many, it's hard to get Hungarian
> wines over here in the US unless you are talking Bulls Blood.)
>
> Instead of raisins which could give you a cooked taste you might want
> to freeze some white grapes and remove the water by dripping; or use a
> really good white concentrate. You need to get to 40 to 60% strength,
> the trick would be deciding how much to add if you use concentrate.
>
> The way I read this they dump the 30-35 gallons of plain white must
> into a tub and add x puttonyos to that. That gets mixed up and once
> fermentation starts they put it in some sort of bag and tread it again;
> that goes to the barrel and sooner (actually much later), Tokaji Aszu.
>
>
> This is not going to be Tokaji Aszu but so what; it could be great.
>
> The best book I have seen on this is my Hungarian neighbors, "The Wine
> Book" by Dorozynski and Bell. I borrowed it and need to get it back to
> him...
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Joe

Franco,
Take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaji

And this reference pretty much answers your other questions:

http://www.masters-of-wine.org/Resou...ePDF/Atkin.pdf

Reading them over and comparing them to what I know sounds similar.
They started with a must _capable_ of 13-15%; adding this dough to it
makes it quite sweet. As I see it the idea is actually for the wine to
'stick' on purpose. They leave this pulpy must alone for a day or two
and then put it into barrels once it's started fermenting.

As to how can it live this long, what could kill it? You have decent
alcohol and decent acidity; as long as you change the corks as needed
they seem to consider this normal; they expect a good bottle to last
lifetimes. They don't shoot for a light colored wine so that's not a
big deal to them.

Hungary isn't well known over here in the US as a high end wine
producer but believe me, they are. They were making this before the
French made Sauternes. The reference to 300 year old wines was from
that book I mentioned.

Joe

Joe:

The second link you posted is a very nice read. So basically Tokaji
Aszu is made in many different ways. Regarding the base wine, some like
to use finished wine while others like to use must, and yet others seem
to use must that is in the middle of fermentation.


Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Franco,
> Take a look at this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaji
>
> And this reference pretty much answers your other questions:
>
> http://www.masters-of-wine.org/Resou...ePDF/Atkin.pdf
>
> Reading them over and comparing them to what I know sounds similar.
> They started with a must _capable_ of 13-15%; adding this dough to it
> makes it quite sweet. As I see it the idea is actually for the wine to
> 'stick' on purpose. They leave this pulpy must alone for a day or two
> and then put it into barrels once it's started fermenting.
>
> As to how can it live this long, what could kill it? You have decent
> alcohol and decent acidity; as long as you change the corks as needed
> they seem to consider this normal; they expect a good bottle to last
> lifetimes. They don't shoot for a light colored wine so that's not a
> big deal to them.
>
> Hungary isn't well known over here in the US as a high end wine
> producer but believe me, they are. They were making this before the
> French made Sauternes. The reference to 300 year old wines was from
> that book I mentioned.
>
> Joe