I enjoy a robust, spicy finish to my reds. On a recent tour through
Washington wine country, I found a malbec and syrah that were
fantastically spicy and peppery. The winemaker said that tannins and
yeast were the primary factors that determined how peppery of a finish
you get. He was understandably vague, though.

Has anyone been able to consistently (or accidentally) achieve this
affect? If so, what grapes, yeast, fermentation temperature, brix,
pH, and TA did you have?

Thanks in advance.

-Greg

It is partly the grapes, small dark berries are the best.

Also the fermentation conditions. the longer the contact with the
skins the more tannin character you will get.


Greg wrote:
> I enjoy a robust, spicy finish to my reds. On a recent tour through
> Washington wine country, I found a malbec and syrah that were
> fantastically spicy and peppery. The winemaker said that tannins and
> yeast were the primary factors that determined how peppery of a finish
> you get. He was understandably vague, though.
>
> Has anyone been able to consistently (or accidentally) achieve this
> affect? If so, what grapes, yeast, fermentation temperature, brix,
> pH, and TA did you have?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Greg

It is partly the grapes, small dark berries are the best.

Also the fermentation conditions. the longer the contact with the
skins the more tannin character you will get.


Greg wrote:
> I enjoy a robust, spicy finish to my reds. On a recent tour through
> Washington wine country, I found a malbec and syrah that were
> fantastically spicy and peppery. The winemaker said that tannins and
> yeast were the primary factors that determined how peppery of a finish
> you get. He was understandably vague, though.
>
> Has anyone been able to consistently (or accidentally) achieve this
> affect? If so, what grapes, yeast, fermentation temperature, brix,
> pH, and TA did you have?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Greg

"spicy" and "peperry", to me, are not so much associated with winemaking
techniques - but more to do with variety. For instance, Zinfandel,
Mourvedre, Carignane, and, to a lesser extent, Syrah, can be managed (in the
vineyard) to produce wines with those qualities. Whereas I donlt think
anyone will ever get them out of Merlot. Grenache is also "spicy" in that it
can elicit that herbal character so prized in some of the Cotes du Rhone
wines.

Assuming that the grapes already have the character you're after, then some
vinification considerations that might accentuate them include; harvest
decisions (ensuring ripeness), longer, slower primary - possibly with
extended skin contact, blending to accentuate those flavors (such as with
the complex Rhone wines - Grenache, Syrah, Mourvedre, etc).

Other than that - maybe someone else has some ideas.



"Greg" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I enjoy a robust, spicy finish to my reds. On a recent tour through
> Washington wine country, I found a malbec and syrah that were
> fantastically spicy and peppery. The winemaker said that tannins and
> yeast were the primary factors that determined how peppery of a finish
> you get. He was understandably vague, though.
>
> Has anyone been able to consistently (or accidentally) achieve this
> affect? If so, what grapes, yeast, fermentation temperature, brix,
> pH, and TA did you have?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Greg
>

I was at Presque Isle the other day and the woman helping me knew I
liked big reds, she asked if I liked peppery? I said of course. She
then poured me out a taste of a new local wine made with a grape grown
within the area (Erie, PA). The hybrid name is NY73, something with
chancellor and now something else too. It was recently named "Noiret"
and it is the most peppery I have ever tasted and it was fantastic.
This was a 2005 and it WILL age well. I hope it has a good season
next year as I will replace my batch of DeChaunac with Noiret for
sure. This stuff was off the charts for North East dry reds!

Greg, Erie, PA

On 18 Sep 2006 20:52:09 -0700, "Greg" > wrote:

>I enjoy a robust, spicy finish to my reds. On a recent tour through
>Washington wine country, I found a malbec and syrah that were
>fantastically spicy and peppery. The winemaker said that tannins and
>yeast were the primary factors that determined how peppery of a finish
>you get. He was understandably vague, though.
>
>Has anyone been able to consistently (or accidentally) achieve this
>affect? If so, what grapes, yeast, fermentation temperature, brix,
>pH, and TA did you have?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>-Greg

Greg - I grow Noiret (it was just recently given a name to replace NY73).
It does make a very good red wine. Here in the KC area I don't harvest with
brix much above 20 but acid does drop down to the 0.7% range so it's a great
hybrid to have in your vineyard. I usually blend with Baco Noir but this
year I'm making a straight Noiret as well as the blend. I'm a big fan also.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Hoss" > wrote in message
...
>I was at Presque Isle the other day and the woman helping me knew I
> liked big reds, she asked if I liked peppery? I said of course. She
> then poured me out a taste of a new local wine made with a grape grown
> within the area (Erie, PA). The hybrid name is NY73, something with
> chancellor and now something else too. It was recently named "Noiret"
> and it is the most peppery I have ever tasted and it was fantastic.
> This was a 2005 and it WILL age well. I hope it has a good season
> next year as I will replace my batch of DeChaunac with Noiret for
> sure. This stuff was off the charts for North East dry reds!
>
> Greg, Erie, PA

William,

What PH do the NY73 grapes get to?? Is 20 brix the norm for those
grapes or is the growing season to cool in KC? What's the average day
of bud break and first fall frost in the KC area? When do you usually
harvest them?

Bob


William Frazier wrote:
> Greg - I grow Noiret (it was just recently given a name to replace NY73).
> It does make a very good red wine. Here in the KC area I don't harvest with
> brix much above 20 but acid does drop down to the 0.7% range so it's a great
> hybrid to have in your vineyard. I usually blend with Baco Noir but this
> year I'm making a straight Noiret as well as the blend. I'm a big fan also.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> "Hoss" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I was at Presque Isle the other day and the woman helping me knew I
> > liked big reds, she asked if I liked peppery? I said of course. She
> > then poured me out a taste of a new local wine made with a grape grown
> > within the area (Erie, PA). The hybrid name is NY73, something with
> > chancellor and now something else too. It was recently named "Noiret"
> > and it is the most peppery I have ever tasted and it was fantastic.
> > This was a 2005 and it WILL age well. I hope it has a good season
> > next year as I will replace my batch of DeChaunac with Noiret for
> > sure. This stuff was off the charts for North East dry reds!
> >
> > Greg, Erie, PA

Bob - It certainly gets hot enough in KC...this summer it was too hot.
Temps between 90 and 100F for several weeks and I believe this hurt sugar
production in all my grapes.

I noted bud swelling for Noiret April 7th. They were in bloom May 21st and
veraison started July 5th. I spur prune these vines and had 30 shoots per
vine. I cluster thinned to NMT two clusters per shoot. This year there
were 14.2 lbs/vine.These are large grapes...about the size of Chambourcin.
I let them hang until I see some berries starting to raisin up. Here's
some harvest data;

2003-August 22nd, 20.4 brix, 3.71 pH, 0.68%TA
2004-September 22nd, 19.5 brix, 3.54 pH, 0.72%TA
2005-September 6th, 18.6 brix, 3.50 brix, 0.83%TA
2006-August 13th, 18.3 brix, 3.34 pH, 0.77%TA

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> William,
>
> What PH do the NY73 grapes get to?? Is 20 brix the norm for those
> grapes or is the growing season to cool in KC? What's the average day
> of bud break and first fall frost in the KC area? When do you usually
> harvest them?
>
> Bob

Thanks William.

It's amazing , you have a month longer growing season in KC than I do
but because of the heat you actually lose weeks. I think your right
about the heat. Here in the NE the temps have been pretty good the last
few years. Actually, this year is turning out better than I had
thought. We've had planty of rain and we'll see how the next month
goes. SO far so good. Just one question, why did you harvest this year
so early in August?

Bob

William Frazier wrote:
> Bob - It certainly gets hot enough in KC...this summer it was too hot.
> Temps between 90 and 100F for several weeks and I believe this hurt sugar
> production in all my grapes.
>
> I noted bud swelling for Noiret April 7th. They were in bloom May 21st and
> veraison started July 5th. I spur prune these vines and had 30 shoots per
> vine. I cluster thinned to NMT two clusters per shoot. This year there
> were 14.2 lbs/vine.These are large grapes...about the size of Chambourcin.
> I let them hang until I see some berries starting to raisin up. Here's
> some harvest data;
>
> 2003-August 22nd, 20.4 brix, 3.71 pH, 0.68%TA
> 2004-September 22nd, 19.5 brix, 3.54 pH, 0.72%TA
> 2005-September 6th, 18.6 brix, 3.50 brix, 0.83%TA
> 2006-August 13th, 18.3 brix, 3.34 pH, 0.77%TA
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > William,
> >
> > What PH do the NY73 grapes get to?? Is 20 brix the norm for those
> > grapes or is the growing season to cool in KC? What's the average day
> > of bud break and first fall frost in the KC area? When do you usually
> > harvest them?
> >
> > Bob

I picked the Noiret because they were at least 18 brix, TA was below 0.8%
and mainly because some rot was starting in clusters and some grapes were
starting to wrinkle up. If the grapes had stayed in good shape I would not
have picked. Chambourcin, growing in the next row, were perfect this year
and I picked them September 8th at 21 brix, pH 3.26 and TA 0.78%. They were
full of juice. But, I know others here in the KC area that let them hang
longer. I believe Noiret is just an earlier grape.

Bill Frazier

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thanks William.
>
> It's amazing , you have a month longer growing season in KC than I do
> but because of the heat you actually lose weeks. I think your right
> about the heat. Here in the NE the temps have been pretty good the last
> few years. Actually, this year is turning out better than I had
> thought. We've had planty of rain and we'll see how the next month
> goes. SO far so good. Just one question, why did you harvest this year
> so early in August?
>
> Bob
>
> William Frazier wrote:
>> Bob - It certainly gets hot enough in KC...this summer it was too hot.
>> Temps between 90 and 100F for several weeks and I believe this hurt sugar
>> production in all my grapes.
>>
>> I noted bud swelling for Noiret April 7th. They were in bloom May 21st
>> and
>> veraison started July 5th. I spur prune these vines and had 30 shoots
>> per
>> vine. I cluster thinned to NMT two clusters per shoot. This year there
>> were 14.2 lbs/vine.These are large grapes...about the size of
>> Chambourcin.
>> I let them hang until I see some berries starting to raisin up. Here's
>> some harvest data;
>>
>> 2003-August 22nd, 20.4 brix, 3.71 pH, 0.68%TA
>> 2004-September 22nd, 19.5 brix, 3.54 pH, 0.72%TA
>> 2005-September 6th, 18.6 brix, 3.50 brix, 0.83%TA
>> 2006-August 13th, 18.3 brix, 3.34 pH, 0.77%TA
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas USA
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > William,
>> >
>> > What PH do the NY73 grapes get to?? Is 20 brix the norm for those
>> > grapes or is the growing season to cool in KC? What's the average day
>> > of bud break and first fall frost in the KC area? When do you usually
>> > harvest them?
>> >
>> > Bob
>