I am reading "A Moveable Feast" by Hemingway, and in the book he mentions
"cutting" wine with about one third water. I am not sure if he did this to
save money because at the time he was rather "hard up," or he did it to
improve the flavor.
Is this a common practice in France or Paris. Seems I saw reference to this
practice somewhere else. Are there certain wines that are best "cut" with
water?

Thanks

Tom

In article >, tombates@city-net
..com says...
>
>I am reading "A Moveable Feast" by Hemingway, and in the book he mentions
>"cutting" wine with about one third water. I am not sure if he did this to
>save money because at the time he was rather "hard up," or he did it to
>improve the flavor.
>Is this a common practice in France or Paris. Seems I saw reference to this
>practice somewhere else. Are there certain wines that are best "cut" with
>water?
>
>Thanks
>
>Tom

During Roman times, it was considered to be the way wine should be consumed.
While I may have missed some cultures' choices, re wine/water, I don't know
the practice nowadays. Someone correct me, if I am wrong.

Hunt

Hunt wrote:

> During Roman times, it was considered to be the way wine should be consumed.
> While I may have missed some cultures' choices, re wine/water, I don't know
> the practice nowadays. Someone correct me, if I am wrong.

Not just in Roman times. It's thought that in the ancient world, wine
was rarely if ever drunk undiluted. Part of the reason for that is that
in the early days of winemaking, uncontrolled fermentations often
produced flawed wines. Moreover, storage was usually done in terra
cotta containers sealed with pitch, lending a very pungent flavor to the
wine (think Retsina, which many say is intended to invoke a memory of
those ancient wines). Another reason was that wine was used to render
water safe to drink, so "diluting" wine with water was done to create
safe drinking water (and also done to a greater extent for service to
children).

As far as I know, no culture practices that any more, though there are
no doubt some people who prefer their wine diluted (and there are a few
wines I've had that I'd have gladly cut with water) just as there are
some misguided souls who choose to foul their single malts with water.
De gustibus non disputandem est.

Mark Lipton

I got my start back in the 50's drinking watered wine with the adults. In
retrospect, probably to limit the alcohol, but mainly I think, the flavors
were too strong for our tender young palates. My palate has gone WAY south
since then... :-(

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
news:59TGf.545390$084.179499@attbi_s22...
> Hunt wrote:
>
>> During Roman times, it was considered to be the way wine should be
>> consumed.
>> While I may have missed some cultures' choices, re wine/water, I don't
>> know
>> the practice nowadays. Someone correct me, if I am wrong.
>
> Not just in Roman times. It's thought that in the ancient world, wine
> was rarely if ever drunk undiluted. Part of the reason for that is that
> in the early days of winemaking, uncontrolled fermentations often
> produced flawed wines. Moreover, storage was usually done in terra
> cotta containers sealed with pitch, lending a very pungent flavor to the
> wine (think Retsina, which many say is intended to invoke a memory of
> those ancient wines). Another reason was that wine was used to render
> water safe to drink, so "diluting" wine with water was done to create
> safe drinking water (and also done to a greater extent for service to
> children).
>
> As far as I know, no culture practices that any more, though there are
> no doubt some people who prefer their wine diluted (and there are a few
> wines I've had that I'd have gladly cut with water) just as there are
> some misguided souls who choose to foul their single malts with water.
> De gustibus non disputandem est.
>
> Mark Lipton

The practice shows up all over Latin Europe in various ways and elsewhere
too, I assume. Children routinely have been introduced to wine at dinner
with water dilution, in modern times. Adding a little wine to "doubtful"
water (as a germicide or whatever), whether or not effective, is a folk
technique, ancient I suppose. The cultures that have drunk wines routinely
for eons also tend not to hold it sacrosanct, so that you see casual mixing
of (ordinary) wines not just with water, but in suitable circumstances with
carbonated water, fruit juices, soft drinks, or other flavorings (cassis in
a kir is famous).

Saintsbury in his classic anglophone beverage guide _Notes on a Cellar-Book_
treated the mixed beverages so customary in his native Britain, though some
were fading in popularity when he wrote (1920). Sherry cobbler with lemon,
sherry and seltzer, negus, flip, punch, cups, "bishop," "Cardinal," and
"Pope" (mulled Port, Bordeaux, and Burgundy respectively -- though "No
burgundy is really suitable for mulling, while to mull good burgundy is a
capital crime"). Sainstbury grew up drinking beer, wine, and fortified
wines, seemingly unafflicted by fashionable prejudices of what was
"considered" good to drink, and went about trying all sorts of things and
judging by how they tasted. He confesses adding sodium carbonate to a
"modern" Marsala to touch up its pH and make it more agreeable. (His
accounts of encountering outstanding cask ales, in country inns during
walking holidays and so on, become poetic.)

I don't know where the original poster is located, but one of the several
quirks of North American wine consumption is that the beverage tends to be
put on a pedestal. Fussed over and served intacto. (Unless the family has
been accustomed to wine for generations, which is the exception and not the
rule.)

--
"Some years after I had invented it [a recipe for a `cup' or punch that was
very popular with party guests] I gave the receipt in an article in the
_Saturday Review,_ which used at that time to confide to me most books on
eating and drinking. Before long it began to appear in such books
themselves, as indeed I had altruistically expected, for they are almost
inevitably compilations. But the gradation of titles was very amusing. The
first borrower honestly quoted it as `Saturday Review Cup'; the second
simply headed it `Another Cup.' But the third trumped both them and me, for
with a noble audacity he (or she, as I think it was) called it `My Own Cup.'
" -- Saintsbury. [The cookbook business, in a nutshell. Actually not
just cookbooks. -- MH]

On 10 Feb 2006 01:12:20 GMT
(Hunt) wrote:

> In article >, tombates@city-net
> .com says...
> >
> >I am reading "A Moveable Feast" by Hemingway, and in the book he mentions
> >"cutting" wine with about one third water. I am not sure if he did this to
> >save money because at the time he was rather "hard up," or he did it to
> >improve the flavor.
> >Is this a common practice in France or Paris. Seems I saw reference to this
> >practice somewhere else. Are there certain wines that are best "cut" with
> >water?
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Tom
>
> During Roman times, it was considered to be the way wine should be consumed.
> While I may have missed some cultures' choices, re wine/water, I don't know
> the practice nowadays. Someone correct me, if I am wrong.
>

Certainly still current practice, although not connected to improving
quality. We have brought good Bordeaux to Adele's relatives in
Hungary, who much appreciated it, but pronounced it "too strong"
and mixed with water.

I have seen village oldsters in Normandy water their wine, and
then dunk sugary biscuits into it!

Watered wine is more typically given to children on special
occasions. We've never gone in for this with ours. If there's
a special bottle they get a taste, which they gargle spectacularly
and pronounce some maxim like: "It's very grapey..." I've
heard of people adding a sugar cube for kids, too, which
is to my mind a bit bizarre.

-E


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

Max Hauser wrote:

> The practice shows up all over Latin Europe in various ways and
> elsewhere too, I assume. Children routinely have been
> introduced to
> wine at dinner with water dilution, in modern times.

Here I am

> I don't know where the original poster is located, but one of
> the
> several quirks of North American wine consumption is that the
> beverage tends to be put on a pedestal. Fussed over and served
> intacto. (Unless the family has been accustomed to wine for
> generations, which is the exception and not the rule.)

Here in Italy it is the rule, and in summer, when thirst arises,
no wine is better than a glass of 50-50 lambrusco and water.
Also, my father sometimes dips bread in his wine glass, be it
water-cut or not: that's a typically old-fashioned habit.
--
Vilco
Think Pink , Drink Rose'

Mark Lipton > wrote:

>> During Roman times, it was considered to be the way wine should
>> be consumed. While I may have missed some cultures' choices, re
>> wine/water, I don't know the practice nowadays. Someone correct
>> me, if I am wrong.

> As far as I know, no culture practices that any more ...

Not true. Here in Austria, "Gespritzter" is a classic summer
thirst quencher: half dry white, half sparkling water (soda or
mineral). It's a Gasthaus or Heurigen order. But you wouldn't
bother taking FX Pichlers or Bründlmayers to practice this.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

> Not true. Here in Austria, "Gespritzter" is a classic summer
> thirst quencher: half dry white, half sparkling water (soda or
> mineral). It's a Gasthaus or Heurigen order. But you wouldn't
> bother taking FX Pichlers or Bründlmayers to practice this.

*slaps forehead* Of course! How could I forget the marvelously
refreshing Gespritzters of Austria? I well remember my mother getting
them when we were summering in Austria in '73. As a teenager, I even
got to try some. ;-)

Mark Lipton

In article <59TGf.545390$084.179499@attbi_s22>, says...
>
>Hunt wrote:
>
>> During Roman times, it was considered to be the way wine should be
consumed.
>> While I may have missed some cultures' choices, re wine/water, I don't know
>> the practice nowadays. Someone correct me, if I am wrong.
>
>Not just in Roman times. It's thought that in the ancient world, wine
>was rarely if ever drunk undiluted. Part of the reason for that is that
>in the early days of winemaking, uncontrolled fermentations often
>produced flawed wines. Moreover, storage was usually done in terra
>cotta containers sealed with pitch, lending a very pungent flavor to the
>wine (think Retsina, which many say is intended to invoke a memory of
>those ancient wines). Another reason was that wine was used to render
>water safe to drink, so "diluting" wine with water was done to create
>safe drinking water (and also done to a greater extent for service to
>children).
>
>As far as I know, no culture practices that any more, though there are
>no doubt some people who prefer their wine diluted (and there are a few
>wines I've had that I'd have gladly cut with water) just as there are
>some misguided souls who choose to foul their single malts with water.
>De gustibus non disputandem est.
>
>Mark Lipton

Thanks for the info.

Thinking about the dilution question, about the closest that I can come in
popular culture(s) is the dilution of White Port with lemonade. OR, the wine-
spritzer with wine mixed with carbonated water. Beyond those two cases, I'm
waiting to hear reports of other dilutions.

Hunt

In article >, lid says...
>
>Max Hauser wrote:
>
>> The practice shows up all over Latin Europe in various ways and
>> elsewhere too, I assume. Children routinely have been
>> introduced to
>> wine at dinner with water dilution, in modern times.
>
>Here I am
>
>> I don't know where the original poster is located, but one of
>> the
>> several quirks of North American wine consumption is that the
>> beverage tends to be put on a pedestal. Fussed over and served
>> intacto. (Unless the family has been accustomed to wine for
>> generations, which is the exception and not the rule.)
>
>Here in Italy it is the rule, and in summer, when thirst arises,
>no wine is better than a glass of 50-50 lambrusco and water.
>Also, my father sometimes dips bread in his wine glass, be it
>water-cut or not: that's a typically old-fashioned habit.
>--
> Vilco
>Think Pink , Drink Rose'

On to the dipping of pastries into wine - I've encountered many a glass of Vin
Santo, accompanied by biscotti for dipping. Could this be traced to the "
Communion" bread/wine combo, or maybe much before?

Hunt

(Hunt) wrote in :

> Thanks for the info.
>
> Thinking about the dilution question, about the closest that I can
> come in popular culture(s) is the dilution of White Port with
> lemonade. OR, the wine- spritzer with wine mixed with carbonated
> water. Beyond those two cases, I'm waiting to hear reports of other
> dilutions.
>

In that case, we could discuss various wine cocktails, like mimosas, bucks
fizz(es?), sangrias, rossinis...but I'm stopping short of those that mix
another alcohol, such as a black velvet...
d...

Mark Lipton > wrote:

>> "Gespritzter"

> *slaps forehead* Of course!

;-)

M.

(Hunt) wrote:

> Thinking about the dilution question, about the closest that I
> can come in popular culture(s) is the dilution of White Port
> with lemonade.

Riding on a boat up the Douro with George Sandeman, he had served
what he called "Sandeman Splash": White Port, ice cubes & tonic
water, in highball glasses. Quite refreshing long drink, btw.

M.

In message >, Hunt > writes

>Thinking about the dilution question, about the closest that I can come in
>popular culture(s) is the dilution of White Port with lemonade. OR, the wine-
>spritzer with wine mixed with carbonated water. Beyond those two cases, I'm
>waiting to hear reports of other dilutions.

I've often diluted red wine with water for a variety of reasons, though
never with something really good or when I'm out for dinner somewhere
special. It helps with some basic reds that have a sharpish edge to
them.

Often I also dilute cranberry juice 50:50 with water, which lessens the
dry sensation somewhat and tones down the sweetness.

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

Sometimes wine gets diluted with other liquids. About 20 years ago I
visited my sister for Thanksgiving and brought a very nice barolo with me.
My brother in law's father was there and as the bottle was passed to him he
had a taste and said the wine was too sour, so he took another 6 ounces and
poured the wine & orange juice into his glass. Luckily he didn't want
seconds. So while he was alive if I was going to visit my sister I brought
a long a special bottle just for "Pop" usually Chateau LaSalle because he
liked the shape of the bottle and now Murray.....

vell boyz and goils you know I left the old age joint in Pontiac, and am
hiding out. Dis week I got a lift to Miami Bitch and vent to a library so I
coud loggie in here. So some of use was sayin dat da Romans didn't drink
dere wine straight, which is true, dey new nuutin from sanitation and dere
vessals smelt like smelt plus a lot of da grapes wuz rottin, so dey used tap
water to thin out da wine--vell da tap water vasn't so good eider, so what
had waz wine dat looked n tasted like toids, big stiny horse toids. Now da
crew at da palace dey got der wine from Gaul in what you call your amfora
type jugs which waz sealed wit wax for da jouney. My cousin Felix had a
company dat sclepped stuff, so along mit some silk, gunpowder and da
occasional voigin, anudder cuz Moses La Farge had da wine made specially for
da Emporer and his posse and put it on Felix's cart---vell I te;; you ever
ting went good until some of dese Visigotts 86'd da cart and had ever ting
on it including da Voigin, such a tsimmis, da Gauls hired a shyster named
Prunelips LeVonce to sue da Goths, da Roman's hired Tightass Liviticus to
sue da gauls but den Nero trashed da place wit a barnfire dat got outta
hand. I'm told it took the boith of Marvin Shankless to straighten every
ting out...........

J. Murray Feffermam
worlds oldest fugitive
"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> (Hunt) wrote:
>
> > Thinking about the dilution question, about the closest that I
> > can come in popular culture(s) is the dilution of White Port
> > with lemonade.
>
> Riding on a boat up the Douro with George Sandeman, he had served
> what he called "Sandeman Splash": White Port, ice cubes & tonic
> water, in highball glasses. Quite refreshing long drink, btw.
>
> M.

"Michael Pronay" in :
> Hunt wrote:
>
>> Thinking about the dilution question, about the closest that I
>> can come in popular culture(s) is the dilution of White Port
>> with lemonade.
>
> Riding on a boat up the Douro with George Sandeman, he had served what he
> called "Sandeman Splash": White Port, ice cubes & tonic water, in highball
> glasses. Quite refreshing long drink, btw.
>
> M.

Didn't think of this before, but "White Port" blends have a history in the
US too, reportedly, but not under that name, and of course pre-mixed and
bottled and very deliberately marketed.

As of the 1970s an important niche segment of the California wine industry
consisted of sweetened and flavored blended wine drinks under labels à la
Thunderbird and Boone's Farm and Annie Green Springs. These were marketed
very specifically -- to younger wine drinkers, or other specific audiences,
more on that in a moment. (Individually packaged "wine coolers" evolved
later out of this niche and became more popular, I understand.)

A creditable though unauthoritative report I heard in the 1970s said that a
specific large US wine maker, known then entirely for bulk wines, had found
its "White Port" genre product selling impressively in low-income city
ghetto neighborhoods, and did market research to find out why. The product
was being mixed with cheap fruit-flavored drinks (maybe Kool-Aid (tm) though
I don't remember now) to make a cooler -- a US counterpart to some of those
summertime European wine mixes. In good US fashion the firm proceeded to
pre-mix the combination at the factory, leading to one of the well-known
labels such as I mentioned above. So went the account I heard, anyway.

Michael Pronay > wrote in
:
>
> Riding on a boat up the Douro with George Sandeman, he had served
> what he called "Sandeman Splash": White Port, ice cubes & tonic
> water, in highball glasses. Quite refreshing long drink, btw.

White Port and Schweppes (take that Nordic Mist *thing* out of my sight,
please) is also a very nice aperitif.

Best,

S.

Santiago > wrote:

>> Riding on a boat up the Douro with George Sandeman, he had
>> served what he called "Sandeman Splash": White Port, ice cubes
>> & tonic water, in highball glasses. Quite refreshing long
>> drink, btw.

> White Port and Schweppes is also a very nice aperitif.

That's more or less what we had on the boat.

> (take that Nordic Mist *thing* out of my sight, please)

Pardon my ignorance, but what's "Nordic Mist"? Googling brings out
a remarkably high number of hispanic pages, btw.

M.

Tom or Mary wrote:
> I am reading "A Moveable Feast" by Hemingway, and in the book he mentions
> "cutting" wine with about one third water. I am not sure if he did this to
> save money because at the time he was rather "hard up," or he did it to
> improve the flavor.
> Is this a common practice in France or Paris. Seems I saw reference to this
> practice somewhere else. Are there certain wines that are best "cut" with
> water?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>
>

Some wine I get tastes like it's made that way.

"Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> Thinking about the dilution question, about the closest that I can come in
> popular culture(s) is the dilution of White Port with lemonade.

"White port and lemon juice,
Ooh what it do to you."
Frank Zappa & the Mothers of Invention

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Don't know about France or Paris but I do recall wondering why the altar boy
would pour water in the priest's wine during the ceremony. )

Monika


"Tom or Mary" > wrote in message
...
>I am reading "A Moveable Feast" by Hemingway, and in the book he mentions
> "cutting" wine with about one third water. I am not sure if he did this
> to
> save money because at the time he was rather "hard up," or he did it to
> improve the flavor.
> Is this a common practice in France or Paris. Seems I saw reference to
> this
> practice somewhere else. Are there certain wines that are best "cut" with
> water?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>
>

"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
>>> During Roman times, it was considered to be the way wine should
>>> be consumed. While I may have missed some cultures' choices, re
>>> wine/water, I don't know the practice nowadays. Someone correct
>>> me, if I am wrong.
>
>> As far as I know, no culture practices that any more ...
>
> Not true. Here in Austria, "Gespritzter" is a classic summer
> thirst quencher: half dry white, half sparkling water (soda or
> mineral). It's a Gasthaus or Heurigen order. But you wouldn't
> bother taking FX Pichlers or Bründlmayers to practice this.
>
> M.

Jack Mann, late of Houghton's, used to put ice cubes in his signature white
wine as a refreshing summer drink.

"Monika Neszvecskó" > wrote in message
.. .
> Don't know about France or Paris but I do recall wondering why the altar
> boy would pour water in the priest's wine during the ceremony. )

It's a symbolic thing. It isn't merely to dilute the wine. This is from
the Council of Florence (circa 1400):
"Not wine only nor water only should be offered in the chalice of the Lord
but a mixture of both. For we read that both, that is blood and water,
flowed from the side of Christ."

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

In message >, Anders
Tørneskog > writes
>
>"Michael Pronay" > skrev i melding
...
>> Santiago > wrote:
>>
>> Pardon my ignorance, but what's "Nordic Mist"? Googling brings out
>> a remarkably high number of hispanic pages, btw.
>>
>The north of Spain I'd guess... :-)

Isn't it a brand of tonic water?

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

I thought I had replied to your question this afternoon, but I cannot see
my reply.

Nordic Mist is the tonic water brand of The Coca Cola Company that replaced
Finley some time ago, it seems that only in Spain. And I cannot stand it.

S.

Santiago > wrote:

> I thought I had replied to your question this afternoon, but I
> cannot see my reply.
>
> Nordic Mist is the tonic water brand of The Coca Cola Company
> that replaced Finley some time ago, it seems that only in Spain.
> And I cannot stand it.

Thank you. Thinking back to my visit of Pamplona in 1971
I remember the large ads standing in the landscape (like the
ubiquitous Osborne bulls):

¡Finley es la tónica!

I found it strange, because the range of soft drinks was called
"Kinley" here in Austria. (I don't know if they still exist.)

M.

Michael Pronay > wrote in
:
>
> Thank you. Thinking back to my visit of Pamplona in 1971
> I remember the large ads standing in the landscape (like the
> ubiquitous Osborne bulls):

Wow. 1971. You were in Spain even before than I arrived <g>.

S.

Santiago > wrote:

>> Thinking back to my visit of Pamplona in 1971

> Wow. 1971. You were in Spain even before than I arrived <g>

Yeah. Been there and even was part of the encierro. (I told both my
1st and my 2nd wife mucho/mas later ;-)

M.