A wine trade friend, Brian Miller, sent me this list of what he reckons wine
consumers want: White wines that taste fresh; Pinot Noir that does not turn
brown; Cabernet Sauvignon that is ripe; Sauvignon Blanc that tastes like New
Zealand Sauvignon Blanc; Wines with minimal perceived chemical manipulation;
Wine that does not taste salty; Wine that does not prematurely oxidise;
Chardonnay that is complex in flavour; Shiraz of maximum flavour but with
lower alcohol; Wine that does not taste corked.

To his list I added: Chardonnay that does not taste of oak juice; Bottle
labels that are legible; Back labels that are accurately descriptive; Dry
wines without excessive residual sugar; Oaked chardonnay with a shelf life
longer than five years; Wines that do not use or contain animal products;
Cellar door facilities and staff that do not remind visitors of a mobile
phone sales consultancy; Wine that is made by winemakers rather than
accountants.

Others?

Cheers!
Martin

Martin, Without wishing to appear a total skeptic, *most* consumers have no
idea what they want; those who do are in a distinct minority.

Is your friend really involved in the wine trade - I only ask because some
of his list of "wants" seem amateurish and basic.

> White wines that taste fresh ??
What does this mean - I am sorry but when I am approaching an aged Riesling
or Champagne or Hunter Valley Semillon, I do not expect "fresh" but the
complexity which comes with age.

> Pinot Noir that does not turn brown
Surely, an aged Burgundy or new world Pinot does turn brickish red/brown -
that is what they do!!!

> Cabernet Sauvignon that is ripe
And what determines "ripe" - OK I agree that under-ripe, skinny vegetal
flavours are not desirable, but, I should have thought, rare in Australia
where "cool climate" means only 60 days a year under 40°C. Surely
"over-ripeness" - also apparent in a hot climate is also undesirable.

> Sauvignon Blanc that tastes like New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc ????
Why? Of course, I love *good* NZ SB - but I must say that I have tasted some
absolutely wonderful wines from Sancerre which, although being 100% SB
tasted nothing like NZ SB

> Wines with minimal perceived chemical manipulation
Can you (or your friend) explain or describe what this tastes like?

> Wine that does not taste salty
Can you name a wine which does taste "salty"

> Wine that does not taste corked
No disagreement here - but in my experience, only a small % of consumers can
recognise a corked wine anyhow!!

> Shiraz of maximum flavour but with lower alcohol
I would have thought that maximum flavoured shiraz can easily carry 14%
alcohol - more subtle examples can be overawed. Do you really think a full
flavoured shiraz should be 12%??????


> Chardonnay that does not taste of oak juice with a shelf life
> longer than five years
One of my pet peeves too - I simply won't but any NZ or Australian
Chardonnay older than three years!

> Wine that is made by winemakers rather than accountants
Sorry - as long as we have taxmen legislating the buggery out of the
industry.....!!!!!!
Of more concern is wine being made by chemists - very topical where much
winemaking in Australia is now done on an industrial scale

--

st.helier

Martin Field wrote:
> A wine trade friend, Brian Miller, sent me this list of what he reckons wine
> consumers want: White wines that taste fresh; Pinot Noir that does not turn
> brown; Cabernet Sauvignon that is ripe; Sauvignon Blanc that tastes like New
> Zealand Sauvignon Blanc; Wines with minimal perceived chemical manipulation;
> Wine that does not taste salty; Wine that does not prematurely oxidise;
> Chardonnay that is complex in flavour; Shiraz of maximum flavour but with
> lower alcohol; Wine that does not taste corked.
>
> To his list I added: Chardonnay that does not taste of oak juice; Bottle
> labels that are legible; Back labels that are accurately descriptive; Dry
> wines without excessive residual sugar; Oaked chardonnay with a shelf life
> longer than five years; Wines that do not use or contain animal products;
> Cellar door facilities and staff that do not remind visitors of a mobile
> phone sales consultancy; Wine that is made by winemakers rather than
> accountants.
>
> Others?

Martin,
While I cannot pretend to speak for Oz consumers, I would certainly
add to any such list: wines that are priced in accord with their quality
and record of performance. No doubt that the popularity of Kiwi
Sauvignons owes much to their vibrant flavors, but their low prices in
the world market also has played a major role in their growing
popularity (and, ironically, has led to an escalation of their prices).

Another addition: wine that complements food, by which I mean wine that
isn't flabby, overoaked, overly alcoholic or badly out of balance.

Mark Lipton

"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> Martin, Without wishing to appear a total skeptic, *most* consumers have
> no idea what they want; those who do are in a distinct minority.
>
> Is your friend really involved in the wine trade - I only ask because some
> of his list of "wants" seem amateurish and basic.

Hi St. I can't speak for him but I suppose most wine consumers are amateurs
with basic likes and dislikes.

>> White wines that taste fresh ??

> What does this mean - I am sorry but when I am approaching an aged
> Riesling or Champagne or Hunter Valley Semillon, I do not expect "fresh"
> but the complexity which comes with age.

I guess we're talking here about wines currently retailing.

>> Pinot Noir that does not turn brown
> Surely, an aged Burgundy or new world Pinot does turn brickish red/brown -
> that is what they do!!!

Again I think we were referring to current vintage wines.

>> Cabernet Sauvignon that is ripe
> And what determines "ripe" - OK I agree that under-ripe, skinny vegetal
> flavours are not desirable, but, I should have thought, rare in Australia
> where "cool climate" means only 60 days a year under 40°C. Surely
> "over-ripeness" - also apparent in a hot climate is also undesirable.

Agree.

>> Sauvignon Blanc that tastes like New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc ????
> Why? Of course, I love *good* NZ SB - but I must say that I have tasted
> some absolutely wonderful wines from Sancerre which, although being 100%
> SB tasted nothing like NZ SB

Most Oz SB consumers would probably not know the difference between a
Sancerre and Fume Blanc - but would be familiar with the NZ style.

>> Wines with minimal perceived chemical manipulation
> Can you (or your friend) explain or describe what this tastes like?

Sulphur faults, VA faults, excessive added acids?

>> Wine that does not taste salty
> Can you name a wine which does taste "salty"

I'm told that some wines from south-east South Australia have excessive salt
characters from salinity related to land degradation.

>> Wine that does not taste corked
> No disagreement here - but in my experience, only a small % of consumers
> can recognise a corked wine anyhow!!

Many may not recognise corked wine but many also won't buy another bottle of
a label that has cork taint - that they think has poor colour, smells or
tastes musty, lacks fruit, tastes flat.

>> Shiraz of maximum flavour but with lower alcohol
> I would have thought that maximum flavoured shiraz can easily carry 14%
> alcohol - more subtle examples can be overawed. Do you really think a full
> flavoured shiraz should be 12%??????

Personally I'm tired of high alcohol jammy shiraz. I can't set a definite
alcohol % but I do enjoy reds that are not over-extracted and verge on port.

>> Chardonnay that does not taste of oak juice with a shelf life
>> longer than five years
> One of my pet peeves too - I simply won't but any NZ or Australian
> Chardonnay older than three years!
>
>> Wine that is made by winemakers rather than accountants
> Sorry - as long as we have taxmen legislating the buggery out of the
> industry.....!!!!!!
> Of more concern is wine being made by chemists - very topical where much
> winemaking in Australia is now done on an industrial scale
>
> --
>
> st.helier

Martin Field wrote:


Hello Everyone,


Well speaking from someone who is not a complete beginner but certainly
nowhere near expert, but has a lot of friends who are "average wine
drinkers" (and increasingly I bore them to death with my increasing
wine-nerdery) I might compose a bit of a list.

And all assuming of course the label makers get within a mile of the truth!

I can sum up pretty much all the average wine drinkers I know by saying
fruity white and sweeter reds for the ladies, and fruity white (still
dryer than the ladies) and fat fruit forward reds for the guys.

So I think in most cases a huge flavour "wow" factor is what average
wine consumers want. So jammy high alcohol shiraz and fruit bowl whites
are still in high demand.



Labels that tell you what the wine "tastes" like.
A lot of ppl simply have no idea what any wine should theoretically
taste like, so get put off when they have say a dry chardonnay when in
fact they want the typical "fruity white".
I do however get sick of every chardonnay in Australia having "tropical
fruit flavours of lychee and passionfruit".

Labels that give you cellaring advice.
This is a bit of an annoyance to me, you go into a wine shop and see
something you don't know that has survived for a lot longer than its
newer vintages, say a '99 when there are 2002-2005 on the shelf. And you
think "Well it might be already dead, or is it in fact better with more
time on it?"

Food matching advice. And preferably more than one dish you've never
heard of (Cuban braised crittergen) or some vague marketting phrase like
"For outdoor living".
Even someone who knows a bit about food/wine matching, it can be
difficult to make a match without having had the wine before and knowing
exactly what it tastes like.

Labels that give you any sort of helpful advice.
Minimalist labels may be trendy, but they don't help anyone. Giving
advice on temperature to serve *how long to decant* etc is always a
bonus I think.

An impossibility, but wines that are truly "worth" what you pay for. So
no jacking up the price $10+ just for the sake of it. There are lots of
overpriced examples in the Australian market. True everywhere I guess.
You charge what you can get.

More "reviews" on wine labels.
So say: "Halliday calls this wine "very pleasant easy drinking" with a
score of 93". A lot of ppl feed off other's impressions, which is both
good and bad, but for a beginner it's a lot of help.



Most ppl who go to buy wine are completey clueless, so any usefull help
and not marketting hype goes a long way.


That's all I can think of at the moment. People just want easy drinking
no thinking with some helpful advice along the way. If it's Chateau
Cardboard and ppl say "ooo, that's nice", it says it's a dry table red,
it says to drink now don't cellar, to have it with pasta with a tomato
based sauce like bolognase and some wine reviewer gave it a 9/10, that's
all and more your average wine drinker wants I think.



Mat.

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:41:51 +1000, Mat <Ask@me> wrote:


<snip>

>I can sum up pretty much all the average wine drinkers I know by saying
>fruity white and sweeter reds for the ladies, and fruity white (still
>dryer than the ladies) and fat fruit forward reds for the guys.
>
>So I think in most cases a huge flavour "wow" factor is what average
>wine consumers want. So jammy high alcohol shiraz and fruit bowl whites
>are still in high demand.

<snip>

Hi Martin,

I knew I was "just the average wine drinker" before I read your list
and must admit that almost all your points have ME (and most Average
Joes imho) in mind.

Sometimes I feel a bit ashamed to like the "jammy high alcohol shiraz
and fruit bowl white" type wines. But even the most experienced
members in this ng say it's all about what YOU like and not what
others say you should like.

Your comments re info on the label is pretty much on (for us average
types) I have found myself buying a wine for the 92 or the
description on the label that seems to be all that I would ever want
in a wine- only to find it's not what _I_ like. One who wants to
learn soon realizes that they have to be somewhat discerning about
info presented on the bottle.

Anyways ramblerambleramble... loved you post

Larry

Wow factor wines are dismaying. They lack any subtlety or aging
potential. Most of them are not food friendly and are only meant to be
weekend trophy wines. This has always been a problem in California and
is only worsening. Stephen Tanzer feels some of this is related to a
change in viticulture techniques but some is definitely market driven.
There seems to be no shortage of $125-175 bottles from northern
California but for the average daily consumer this is of little value.
There is a distinct advantage for California producers to make wines
that can encourage daily consumption with a meal that most of the rest
of the world seems to understand and they don't. Yes, the economies of
producing wine in Northern California do not lend themselves to easily
affordable wines. Maybe that is why so many other wine growing regions
in other than Northern California, especially outside of California are
making such good progress and producing wines that are enjoyable to
drink with a meal. That is my desire. I don't care if it's sweet, dry,
oaky whatever. With the right food there are merits to all. But unless
you want to be drinking wine as the entire meal the extravagant ones are
of little use.

In article >, Mat <Ask@me> wrote:

> Martin Field wrote:
>
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
>
> Well speaking from someone who is not a complete beginner but certainly
> nowhere near expert, but has a lot of friends who are "average wine
> drinkers" (and increasingly I bore them to death with my increasing
> wine-nerdery) I might compose a bit of a list.
>
> And all assuming of course the label makers get within a mile of the truth!
>
> I can sum up pretty much all the average wine drinkers I know by saying
> fruity white and sweeter reds for the ladies, and fruity white (still
> dryer than the ladies) and fat fruit forward reds for the guys.
>
> So I think in most cases a huge flavour "wow" factor is what average
> wine consumers want. So jammy high alcohol shiraz and fruit bowl whites
> are still in high demand.
>
>
>
> Labels that tell you what the wine "tastes" like.
> A lot of ppl simply have no idea what any wine should theoretically
> taste like, so get put off when they have say a dry chardonnay when in
> fact they want the typical "fruity white".
> I do however get sick of every chardonnay in Australia having "tropical
> fruit flavours of lychee and passionfruit".
>
> Labels that give you cellaring advice.
> This is a bit of an annoyance to me, you go into a wine shop and see
> something you don't know that has survived for a lot longer than its
> newer vintages, say a '99 when there are 2002-2005 on the shelf. And you
> think "Well it might be already dead, or is it in fact better with more
> time on it?"
>
> Food matching advice. And preferably more than one dish you've never
> heard of (Cuban braised crittergen) or some vague marketting phrase like
> "For outdoor living".
> Even someone who knows a bit about food/wine matching, it can be
> difficult to make a match without having had the wine before and knowing
> exactly what it tastes like.
>
> Labels that give you any sort of helpful advice.
> Minimalist labels may be trendy, but they don't help anyone. Giving
> advice on temperature to serve *how long to decant* etc is always a
> bonus I think.
>
> An impossibility, but wines that are truly "worth" what you pay for. So
> no jacking up the price $10+ just for the sake of it. There are lots of
> overpriced examples in the Australian market. True everywhere I guess.
> You charge what you can get.
>
> More "reviews" on wine labels.
> So say: "Halliday calls this wine "very pleasant easy drinking" with a
> score of 93". A lot of ppl feed off other's impressions, which is both
> good and bad, but for a beginner it's a lot of help.
>
>
>
> Most ppl who go to buy wine are completey clueless, so any usefull help
> and not marketting hype goes a long way.
>
>
> That's all I can think of at the moment. People just want easy drinking
> no thinking with some helpful advice along the way. If it's Chateau
> Cardboard and ppl say "ooo, that's nice", it says it's a dry table red,
> it says to drink now don't cellar, to have it with pasta with a tomato
> based sauce like bolognase and some wine reviewer gave it a 9/10, that's
> all and more your average wine drinker wants I think.
>
>
>
> Mat.
>