I have a picture of(from left to right) a cork from a 1978 Ridge
Zinfandel, a new cork, and a cork from a 1964 Bertani Amarone. These
wines were opened in the last few weeks. The corks were sound. However
they were very heavy. After they were allowed to completely dry in the
kitchen, they became very light and shrank so much that they will fall
through the neck of the wine bottle. The new cork was bought in about
1975. It is still elastic. The dry 1978 cork has lost all elasticity and
is hard. The 1964 cork is so hard and brittle that it is easy to break
it. The picture is at:

http://www.cwdjr.net/picsnap/WineCorks1978,new,1964.jpg

Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork structure
with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope screw caps soon
become universal. However I want a heavy duty cap that will not bend or
dent and that has a Teflon seal so that the cap can withstand minor
rough handling and can seal for many decades without problems. Of course
the present screw caps may be good enough for wines not kept for several
decades, although the weak construction of them sometimes allows the
caps to dent or bend and leak if the cap receives a blow. Surely a top,
or even average, classified wine estate could afford to pay a little
more for heavy duty screw caps, consdering the very high price their top
wines now bring.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:37:02 -0600, (Cwdjrx _)
wrote:

>Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork structure
>with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope screw caps soon
>become universal. However I want a heavy duty cap that will not bend or
>dent and that has a Teflon seal so that the cap can withstand minor
>rough handling and can seal for many decades without problems. Of course
>the present screw caps may be good enough for wines not kept for several
>decades, although the weak construction of them sometimes allows the
>caps to dent or bend and leak if the cap receives a blow. Surely a top,
>or even average, classified wine estate could afford to pay a little
>more for heavy duty screw caps, consdering the very high price their top
>wines now bring.

Good point about the physical strength of the screwcap.

I am not sure about tefon as a sealant though. I believe the current
sealant disks (silicone I think) are carefully designed to perform
their function, and there is even research to design seling disks that
are slightly porous - in case people eventually decide that is
desirabe.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Steve Slatcher > wrote:

>> Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork
>> structure with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope
>> screw caps soon become universal. However I want a heavy duty
>> cap that will not bend or dent and that has a Teflon seal so
>> that the cap can withstand minor rough handling and can seal
>> for many decades without problems. Of course the present screw
>> caps may be good enough for wines not kept for several decades,
>> although the weak construction of them sometimes allows the
>> caps to dent or bend and leak if the cap receives a blow.
>> Surely a top, or even average, classified wine estate could
>> afford to pay a little more for heavy duty screw caps,
>> consdering the very high price their top wines now bring.

> Good point about the physical strength of the screwcap.
>
> I am not sure about tefon as a sealant though. I believe the
> current sealant disks (silicone I think) are carefully designed
> to perform their function, and there is even research to design
> seling disks that are slightly porous - in case people
> eventually decide that is desirabe.

The liner is made from 4 layers. From outside to wine

- the screwcap itself (aluminium alloy)
- a compressed wad of expanded polyethylene
- a tin foil (gas barrier)
- a neutral PVCD (polyvinylidene chloride)- not silicone! -
foil in touch with the wine.

See the details of the makeup he

<http://www.screwcap.co.nz/grids/index_green.asp?area=5&id=246>

Btw, current screwcaps have proven successfull in sealing over
more than three decades.

M.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:37:02 -0600, Cwdjrx _ wrote:
>
> Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork structure
> with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope screw caps soon
> become universal.


I find the trend towards screw tops on wine quite depressing. It's going to
decimate one of the main industries in the Alentejo and other areas where
there are few alternative sources of employment. Cork is an infinitely
renewable resource, is biodegradeable, and will not sit around in rubbish
dumps for hundreds of years like Teflon.

I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rates of up to 30%.
I suspect any fault in the wine is nowadays ascribed to the cork. Even so,
I think a few corked bottles of wine every now and again is a price we
should be prepared to pay. I don't think it's fair for us wine drinkers to
insist on a zero failure rate for corks, if a consequence of this is to
destroy the livelihoods of people who have been involved in the industry
for generations.

There are ways of improving the performance of cork, for e.g., by washing
in hydrogen peroxide, but a large part of the problem is that the price for
lower grades of cork has come down over the past 20 years or so, and so a
great many of the problems that are emerging now arise as a result of
bottlers using inferior cork in order to save money.
--
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

---------------------------------------------------------
Best Eurovision Song Title So Far:

"Vsichki Drehi Mi Prechat" - All Clothes are an Obstacle to Me
(Bulgaria)

loobyloo > wrote:

>> Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork
>> structure with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope
>> screw caps soon become universal.

> I find the trend towards screw tops on wine quite depressing.

I don't, quite on the contrary.

> It's going to decimate one of the main industries in the
> Alentejo and other areas where there are few alternative sources
> of employment.

OK then - how about the wax and cloth industry 200 years ago, when
the first moves to cork arised? Things *are* changing, and life
today is not like it has been 30, 50 or 150 years ago.

> Cork is an infinitely renewable resource, is biodegradeable, and
> will not sit around in rubbish dumps for hundreds of years like
> Teflon.

First, there is no teflon involved in scerwcaps. Second, the
failure rate is alarming. No other industry worldwide could get
along with such rates. The latest survey found its way to the
newspapers three days ago:

<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...5/01/27/WIGP7B
0EOG1.DTL>

or

<http://snipurl.com/ceib>

It shows an 8 percent failure rate on some 2000 wines tasted.

> I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rates of
> up to 30%.

The next time i'll invite you. That was the taint rate in our
Bordeaux 1995 tasting (101 wines) two weeks ago.

> I suspect any fault in the wine is nowadays ascribed to the
> cork.

If the back-up bottle is flawless, then I wait for your theory who
the culprit might be. Or if both bottles are equally so-so (i.e.
rated between 80 and 84 at best), while the wine in question,
Grand-Puy-Lacoste, happens to be a Parker 95 point wine - how do
you solve this question? And no - no heat or other damage
possible, the bottles coming airmail directly from the chateau.

> Even so, I think a few corked bottles of wine every now and
> again is a price we should be prepared to pay.

No. I am not prepared to pay this price. Some weeks ago I had
dinner at my house, and the magnum of Gruaud-Larose 1961 - a
wedding gift back in 1992 from a guy then working for Cordier's
importers to Austria - was opend in presence of the donor to be
the star of the evening. TCA, once again.

No, I am definitely fed up!

> I don't think it's fair for us wine drinkers to insist on a zero
> failure rate for corks, if a consequence of this is to destroy
> the livelihoods of people who have been involved in the industry
> for generations.

What happened to those working in the petroleum lamp business? Or
those constructing steam locomotives? Sorry, but I can't follow
you upon this path of reasonment.

> There are ways of improving the performance of cork, for e.g.,
> by washing in hydrogen peroxide,

I've heard *so* many solutions to the problems of TCA taint for
almost 30 years - and *none* has proven successfull. You don't
mind if I remain extremely sceptical.

> but a large part of the problem is that the price for lower
> grades of cork has come down over the past 20 years or so, and
> so a great many of the problems that are emerging now arise as a
> result of bottlers using inferior cork in order to save money.

Which, of course, happens to be true for Bordeaux crus classés,
too? Go figure.

M.

"loobyloo" > wrote in message
...
> I find the trend towards screw tops on wine quite depressing. It's going
> to
> decimate one of the main industries in the Alentejo and other areas where
> there are few alternative sources of employment.

So they'll grow cork for flooring instead of stoppering wine.

Cork is an infinitely
> renewable resource, is biodegradeable, and will not sit around in rubbish
> dumps for hundreds of years like Teflon.

Teflon isn't used in screw caps.

> I suspect any fault in the wine is nowadays ascribed to the cork. Even
> so,
> I think a few corked bottles of wine every now and again is a price we
> should be prepared to pay.

You're very generous with MY money, aren't you?

I don't think it's fair for us wine drinkers to
> insist on a zero failure rate for corks, if a consequence of this is to
> destroy the livelihoods of people who have been involved in the industry
> for generations.

The writings been on the wall for years. Besides, it's not happening
overnight - even from this point in time.

> There are ways of improving the performance of cork, for e.g., by washing
> in hydrogen peroxide, but a large part of the problem is that the price
> for
> lower grades of cork has come down over the past 20 years or so, and so a
> great many of the problems that are emerging now arise as a result of
> bottlers using inferior cork in order to save money.

It isn't so much that lower grades of cork have come down. It's more that
the higher grades have become so much more expensive so quickly. Even a
cheap cork is about _double_ the price of a synthetic corq. 20 years ago I
bought 50cm "extra first" corks for ~10¢ apiece. Nowadays that same cork at
least 5 times that price, and that still doesn't guarantee freedom from
taint.

In general, winemakers are a quality oriented lot. They will eagerly adopt
anything that comes along to improve their processes. Remember when barrel
bungs were all made from either fir or redwood and sealed with paraffin? I
havent seen a wooden bung in more than a decade because everyone uses
silicone nowadays. Surely that change has put some people out of work, just
as the spread of shoe laces and loafers changed the careers of button hook
manufacturers. Those people are all doing something different now, and new
jobs were created in aglet manufacturing.

Tom S

On 30 Jan 2005 17:08:40 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>loobyloo > wrote:

>> I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rates of
>> up to 30%.
>
>The next time i'll invite you. That was the taint rate in our
>Bordeaux 1995 tasting (101 wines) two weeks ago.

Can I come too ;-)

I think most sources would agree an average rate of about 5% for TCA
infection. Most, though not all, would be down to the cork.

A senior person (MD I think) in Oddbins - a major UK high street wine
merchant - estimated that 30% of wines are spoiled *in some way* by
faulty corks.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

In article >, Cwdjrx _
> writes
>Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork structure
>with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope screw caps soon
>become universal.

< delurk >

What about artificial corks? Surely they have the practicality of
screw-caps yet retain the romance of cork?

< /delurk >

--
Veggie Dave
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
Extreme Racing http://www.veggie-dave.co.uk
'Who ever puts their hand upon me to govern me is a usurper,
a tyrant and I declare them my enemy'

"Tom S" > skrev i melding
. com...
>

> ... Even a cheap cork is about _double_ the price of a synthetic corq.
> 20 years ago I bought 50cm "extra first" corks for ~10¢ apiece.

Wow, I've never seen a cork 20 inches long...! How big are the bottles?
:-) Anders

Veggie Dave > wrote:

> What about artificial corks? Surely they have the practicality
> of screw-caps yet retain the romance of cork?

Synthetic corks lose their sealing ability within 12 to 24 months
after bottling. From that time on, the wines age prematurely and
at an increasing pace. From the whites I open after three years,
80 and more percent are alreday noticeably oxidized.

Btw, I don't see any "romance" in cork stoppers. It's all about
the wine performing well in the glass - and nothing about anything
else.

After all - it's only a closure!

M.

Steve Slatcher > wrote:

>>> I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rates
>>> of up to 30%.

>> The next time i'll invite you. That was the taint rate in our
>> Bordeaux 1995 tasting (101 wines) two weeks ago.

> Can I come too ;-)

Of course.

My article - titled "The Cork Disaster" and to be published in
"VINARIA" (www.vinaria.at) - is available. If somebody wishes, I
can mail it, but that would only make sense if one has a basic
knowledge of German (or willing to work through it via babelfish).

> I think most sources would agree an average rate of about 5% for
> TCA infection. Most, though not all, would be down to the cork.

Five percent? Nope. A sommelier friend of mine, Adolf Schmid, head
wine waiter (Chefsommelier) in Vienna's best eatery, Steirereck
(<www.steirereck.at>), has been doing statistics for years now: a
solid ten percent. The last link I gave here reported 8 percent.

> A senior person (MD I think) in Oddbins - a major UK high street
> wine merchant - estimated that 30% of wines are spoiled *in some
> way* by faulty corks.

He's absolutely right. 30 to 40 percent of all cork stoppered
wines "do not taste like they should", as another friend of mine,
Franz Noitz, an importer and wine-merchant (with an extremely
sensitive nose to faults) puts it.

M.

Veggie Dave > wrote:

> What about artificial corks? Surely they have the practicality
> of screw-caps yet retain the romance of cork?

Synthetic corks lose their gas tightness within 12 to 24 months
from bottling. From that time on, the wines age prematurely and
at an increasing pace. From the whites I open after three years,
80 and more percent are alreday noticeably oxidized.

Btw, I don't see any "romance" in cork stoppers. It's all about
the wine performing well in the glass - and nothing about anything
else.

After all - it's only a closure!

M.

In ,
Michael Pronay > typed:

> My article - titled "The Cork Disaster" and to be published in
> "VINARIA" (www.vinaria.at) - is available. If somebody wishes,
> I
> can mail i, but that would only make sense if one has a basic
> knowledge of German (or willing to work through it via
> babelfish).


Michael, I'd like to read it. My German was learned in High
School many years ago. It was never very good and it's very rusty
now, but I'm willing to give it a try.

Could you send it, please, to . Thanks very
much.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

"Ken Blake" > wrote:

> Could you send it, please, to . Thanks very
> much.

Done.

M.

On 30 Jan 2005 17:08:40 GMT, Michael Pronay wrote:

>
> OK then - how about the wax and cloth industry 200 years ago, when
> the first moves to cork arised? Things *are* changing, and life
> today is not like it has been 30, 50 or 150 years ago.
>

That's not going to be much of a consolation to the thousands of people who
depend on producing wine corks as an explanation of why they're going to be
out of a job. It's a important industrial sector in Portugal and its demise
would damage the country's economy.


>> Cork is an infinitely renewable resource, is biodegradeable, and
>> will not sit around in rubbish dumps for hundreds of years like
>> Teflon.
>
> First, there is no teflon involved in scerwcaps.

The OP suggested a Teflon element in the new caps.


Second, the
> failure rate is alarming. No other industry worldwide could get
> along with such rates. The latest survey found its way to the
> newspapers three days ago:
>
> <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...5/01/27/WIGP7B
> 0EOG1.DTL>
>
> It shows an 8 percent failure rate on some 2000 wines tasted.
>
>> I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rates of
>> up to 30%.
>
> The next time i'll invite you. That was the taint rate in our
> Bordeaux 1995 tasting (101 wines) two weeks ago.

If the average failure rate is 8%, then it's quite possible that
occasionally a tasting might result in a rate this high, but you must have
been particularly unfortunate with that sample.

>> Even so, I think a few corked bottles of wine every now and
>> again is a price we should be prepared to pay.
>
> No. I am not prepared to pay this price. Some weeks ago I had
> dinner at my house, and the magnum of Gruaud-Larose 1961 - a
> wedding gift back in 1992 from a guy then working for Cordier's
> importers to Austria - was opend in presence of the donor to be
> the star of the evening. TCA, once again.
>
> No, I am definitely fed up!
>

You might be fed up but you can always afford another bottle of wine. I
still think that given the vast economic mismatches between the cork
producers and ourselves, that we should learn to live with an 8% failure
rate and pressure the industry into improving cork rather than abandoning
it.
..
>
>> There are ways of improving the performance of cork, for e.g.,
>> by washing in hydrogen peroxide,
>
> I've heard *so* many solutions to the problems of TCA taint for
> almost 30 years - and *none* has proven successfull. You don't
> mind if I remain extremely sceptical.

Well, it's worth a try!

>
>> but a large part of the problem is that the price for lower
>> grades of cork has come down over the past 20 years or so, and
>> so a great many of the problems that are emerging now arise as a
>> result of bottlers using inferior cork in order to save money.
>
> Which, of course, happens to be true for Bordeaux crus classés,
> too? Go figure.
>

Of course even higher grade cork is going to taint the odd wine. I just
think the suggestion to abandon cork altogether is disproportionate to the
incovenience it causes.
--
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

---------------------------------------------------------
Best Eurovision Song Title So Far:

"Vsichki Drehi Mi Prechat" - All Clothes are an Obstacle to Me
(Bulgaria)

loobyloo wrote:

> That's not going to be much of a consolation to the thousands of people who
> depend on producing wine corks as an explanation of why they're going to be
> out of a job. It's a important industrial sector in Portugal and its demise
> would damage the country's economy.

Wine closures are not the only use for cork, and no attempt to replace
the cork will involve 100% of wine bottles.


> You might be fed up but you can always afford another bottle of wine. I
> still think that given the vast economic mismatches between the cork
> producers and ourselves, that we should learn to live with an 8% failure
> rate and pressure the industry into improving cork rather than abandoning
> it.

Should we also buy lead-tainted candy from Mexico because they need the
income? IMO, this is a straw man of the worst sort. I agree with
Michael 100% that no other industry would tolerate the failure rate that
wine consumers are asked to put up with. Even the industry policy of
refunding the purchase price of TCA-tainted bottles is inadequate
because of the time lag involved with bottles that need cellar aging.
In the case of Michael's 1961 Gruaud-Larose, are you seriously
suggesting that he go to the auction market to pay in excess of 200
Euros to replace his defective bottle (even if he could find it)? In
the end, let the consumers make the choice and let the cork industry
respond to whatever economic pressures are placed on them.

Mark Lipton

The best seal of all likely is a gold gasket. That is what is used to
seal ultra-high vacuum equipment. However, even given the now extreme
price of some top wines, gold is still a bit expensive to seal a wine
bottle. Teflon may also, like gold, be an overkill. However so much work
has been done on this plastic, that it is nearly certain that it could
properly seal a wine for up to hundreds of years. Teflon has been long
used and is very safe and non toxic for contact with foods and has been
so approved. In fact many of you are drinking water that comes in
contact wth Teflon. Teflon tape now is often used to seal the threads in
plastic cold and hot water pipes that now serve most homes. Of course
there are still a few homes served by pipes of the very natural material
lead, and also a pipe cement containing lead oxide often was used before
Teflon tape became common. A high quality screw seal with a Teflon
insert for the seal probably would be best made of stainless steel that
will withstand extremely long storage under damp conditions. Aluminum is
much more reactive. The cap should be strong to avoid distortion by
blows that can break the seal in soft, thin metal screw caps. Also the
cap must be tightened to a sufficent pressure to hold the Teflon seal
very tightly against the glass. Again we are talking about the tiny
portion of fine wines that can be aged for many decades. The amount of
Teflon waste from these would be insignificant compared to the huge
amount now used for pipe seals, non-stick pans, and such.

There is one condition under which Teflon can be harmful. Although it
can withstand extremely high temperatures, it will decompose at a high
enough temperature - such as if you place a Teflon coated pan on a stove
burner on high and leave it there a long time. This usually causes no
problems for humans. However certain birds, such as Amazon parrots, can
not tolerate the decomposition products produced by overheated Teflon
and rapidly die before you can get them to a vet. A bird's respiration
system is greatly different from that of a human, and there are many
things that some birds can not tolerate that are no problem to humans,
dogs, and cats. I use some Teflon coated equipment, but not saute pans,
in case I forget and leave one on a heated burner. My 22 year old Amazon
Green Cheek parrot never is sick, still is playful, and has no
problems.He has been drinking water from pipes sealed with Teflon tape
and has been around Teflon equipment that is not used on the stove top
all of his life.

I see no need to support outmoded technology. At one time, a local
company used a large number of key punch operators to punch computer
cards. These people were out of a job when punched cards were no longer
needed. People who lose their job have to retrain to do something else.
Many companies or the various governments will pay for this, as it is
much better for all concerned not to have many people receiving
unemployment pay at taxpayer expense. I do know a bit about forests,
since my father left me some forest land in another state that has been
in the family for over 100 years. It produces mainly yellow pine, which
is widely used for lumber, electric poles, etc. There are also at least
6 kinds of oaks on the property - red oak, whte oak, pin oak, black oak,
etc. Oaks are tolerated to a small extent, but the pine is encouraged
because it has the best market value. Should a certain kind of oak come
in high demand, the forest could be slowly converted to produce more of
that species. In the area where the forest is, more land now is in
forest than in the early last century. In the early last century much
cotton was grown in the area, but other areas now are better suited for
cotton. Thus much of the former land used for cotton now is planted with
trees. Besides producing lumber and paper pulp for over 100 years, my
forrest land is the home of many animals - wild turkeys, deer, rabbits,
a wolf or two, many bird species, the same as it was 100 years ago. The
cork oak forests may have to be slowly coverted to some other species of
oak or other tree. At one time cork was widely used as insullation.
However much of this cork is now replaced by a wide variety of other
materials. Wine corks are just one of many uses of cork.


My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

In ,
Michael Pronay > typed:

> "Ken Blake" > wrote:
>
>> Could you send it, please, to . Thanks very
>> much.
>
> Done.


And received here, thanks very much.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

Cwdjrx _ wrote:
> Teflon has been long
> used and is very safe and non toxic for contact with foods and has been
> so approved. In fact many of you are drinking water that comes in
> contact wth Teflon. Teflon tape now is often used to seal the threads in
> plastic cold and hot water pipes that now serve most homes. Of course
> there are still a few homes served by pipes of the very natural material
> lead, and also a pipe cement containing lead oxide often was used before
> Teflon tape became common. A high quality screw seal with a Teflon
> insert for the seal probably would be best made of stainless steel that
> will withstand extremely long storage under damp conditions. Aluminum is
> much more reactive. The cap should be strong to avoid distortion by
> blows that can break the seal in soft, thin metal screw caps. Also the
> cap must be tightened to a sufficent pressure to hold the Teflon seal
> very tightly against the glass.

Teflon is certainly unreactive enough, but it might be too plastic to
keep a tight seal. For instance, the teflon tips to the plungers of
Gastight syringes that we use will deform enough if the plunger is
stored in the barrel to abrograte the seal of the syringe (that seal is
quickly restored by banging the plunger tip on a countertop several
times -- very plastic indeed). That happens over the course of a few
days, so a Teflon-lined cap would surely deform and possibly lose its
seal during the time needed to age wine.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton states:

"Teflon is certainly unreactive enough, but it might be too plastic to
keep a tight seal. For instance, the teflon tips to the plungers of
Gastight syringes that we use will deform enough if the plunger is
stored in the barrel to abrograte the seal of the syringe (that seal is
quickly restored by banging the plunger tip on a countertop several
times -- very plastic indeed). That happens over the course of a few
days, so a Teflon-lined cap would surely deform and possibly lose its
seal during the time needed to age wine."

I never used Teflon syringes at work, but I know other types often had
problems with the seal also, perhaps for different reasons than for
Teflon ones. We used pure tin foil in bottle caps, and it seemed to work
very well for many things. However for some very nasty things that will
react with tin, Teflon discs worked very well if you tightened the cap
down well, even for very volatile liquids. In addition, metal pipe
threads sealed with Teflon tape held up well and did not leak, even at
very high pressures. The experimental thermodynamics people did use some
pure gold gaskets in some of their combustion bombs that could produce a
very high internal pressure. If gradual flow did tend to unseal the cap
over a very long time, a metal disc behind the Teflon disc and a small
sprong between the metal disc and inside of the cap would help keep
pressure on the seal if need be. Again, I am talking only about wines
that are to be kept several to many decades. If you are stuck with old
bottles that have very old corks, you can always remove the capsule,
clean the top, and dip it in wax several times. Of course this would not
do for wine that is to be resold. I have a few very old bottles waxed.
If the bottle is to be kept in a cool cellar and not moved, USP beeswax
works well and is easy to apply and remove. Many old vintage Madeiras
solved the cork problem by sealng the top of the bottle with a heavy
coat of sealing wax instead of using a metal capsule. I have a few very
old bottles thus sealed, and the wax likely is the only thing that
prevents the bottles from leaking.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom S" > skrev i melding
> . com...
>>
>
>> ... Even a cheap cork is about _double_ the price of a synthetic corq.
>> 20 years ago I bought 50cm "extra first" corks for ~10¢ apiece.
>
> Wow, I've never seen a cork 20 inches long...! How big are the bottles?
> :-) Anders

Wups! That darned metric system got me again. :^/
Should have been 50mm. Next time I'll just say 2 inches.

Tom S

Salut/Hi Cliff,

le/on Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:41:01 +0000, tu disais/you said:-

>On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:37:02 -0600, Cwdjrx _ wrote:

>> Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork structure
>> with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope screw caps soon
>> become universal.
>
>I find the trend towards screw tops on wine quite depressing. It's going to
>decimate one of the main industries in the Alentejo and other areas where
>there are few alternative sources of employment. Cork is an infinitely
>renewable resource, is biodegradeable, and will not sit around in rubbish
>dumps for hundreds of years like Teflon.

May I be pedantic here to make a point? You say that the move towards
alternative closures will "decimate" the cortk industry. Well, unwittingly
you may be right!! Decimate as an expression dates back to the roman
legions, where disciplinary action included "decimation" it seems. "Decem"
is latin for 10, and decimation meant that one person in ten was selected
for punishment. As there were 100 centurions in a legion (centum means 100)
this meant that 10 (decem again) would be punished - usually by being put to
death. That's what decimated means, and yes, one job in ten MAY just be
lost, although in fact I think that's unlikely.

Allow me to sidetrack for a moment. My wife and I are members of RSPB (for
non UKians, that's similar to the US Audubon Society) and they contacted the
Beeb countryfile program, with an impassioned plea for the plight of the
robin, whose nesting habitat is cork oaks. One wonders who was fooling whom!

I see these two issues (jobs and robins) as a sign that after decades of
complacency, the Portuguese cork industry are getting seriously concerned
and coming up with ever more desperate reasons to continue to use cork
closures for wine.

I agree with you that cork has many virtues, and would be all in favour of
its continuing and even increasing use as a cheap and effective insulant,
for example. However, over the last 40 years, we've seen the proportion of
corked wines increase from an irritating but (IMO) acceptable <1% to the
present day levels. I'll not split hairs with you over whether current
figures are 5%, 8% or 20% or more. My personal opinion is that with extreme
care taken both in manufacturer and selection, some boutique winemakers can
confidently say that the incidence of corked bottles is under 1%. I am
pretty sure, however, that a winemaker such as Penfold in Australia, or
Lurton in France can't afford the very finest quality corks, nor the care in
selection of batches. If they have to rely on the cork manufacturer alone,
I'm sure that figures like 10% or even over 15% would be more or less
correct.

Others have commented upon the acceptability or otherwise of this, and the
difficulty that delays in discovery of a corked wine can pose. I'll not add
to their comments except to say that I share their feelings.

Leaving TCA contamination to one side, anyone who lays down wines will agree
that with time, corks break down in structure. I've seen this start on corks
at around 10 years, but it's generally agreed that the useful life of a cork
is around 30-50 years, at the end of which the bottle needs re-corking. So
again, cork is less than perfect for very long aging, because I hardly need
to mention the risks involved in recorking.

Cork agglomerates are being put forward as being _the_ solution. For short
to medium term storage. The cork manufacturers are saying that new treatment
methods guarantee TCA free closures. If that is the case, I have to wonder
why disks of natural cork are stuck on the wine side in many such corks.
Could it be because of the risk that the glue used is in itself a potential
contaminant?

>I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rates of up to 30%.

Why? Because it's not your personal experience. It isn't mine either, but
then we may be lucky/careful in our choice of supplier!

>I suspect any fault in the wine is nowadays ascribed to the cork.

No, no one serious confuses TCA contamination with the other ills to which
wine can succumb. That said, it may be true that in some restaurants,
clients order an expensive wine (too young?) discover that it doesn't
actually taste very nice and therefore try to send it back as corked. It may
even be that the sommelier/manager decides to maintain a polite fiction,
rathr than risk a confrontation.

> Even so, I think a few corked bottles of wine every now and again is a price we
>should be prepared to pay.

Why? To keep an industry that has manifestly failed to do its job alive? If
there were NO alternative, then we might just have to do so, but there IS a
perfectly satisfactory alternative. In fact there are two such. Crown caps
have been used for aging vintage and late bottled champagne for MANY years
with no discernable ill effect, and that they're used for a minimum period
for ALL "methode traditionelle" sparklers. Research has been carried out
into aging wines under Stelvin for at least 10 years, with no ill effects,
and perfectly satisfactory aging.

> I don't think it's fair for us wine drinkers to insist on a zero failure rate for corks, if a consequence of this is to
>destroy the livelihoods of people who have been involved in the industry for generations.

I'm afraid that's a specious argument. No industry has a God given right to
exist. You could just as well have used that logic against the spread of
personal computers, one consequence of which has been the demise of the
industry of copy-typists. You could have used it against the adoption of
cars, which has resulted in the demise of the industry of bargees, amongst
others.

That said, it is my opinion that much of the rise in TCA contamination is
due to too early harvesting of cork, and to be fair to them, they couldn't
have been expected to predict the rise in demand for cork, given the very
long lead time needed.
>
>There are ways of improving the performance of cork, for e.g., by washing
>in hydrogen peroxide,

Too little, too late, I'm afraid.

> but a large part of the problem is that the price for lower grades of cork has come down over the past 20 years or so, and so a
>great many of the problems that are emerging now arise as a result of bottlers using inferior cork in order to save money.

I am not sure you're right here. Firstly, cork manufacturers had no business
introducing cheap corks if that resulted in the present levels of TCA, which
is what is implicit in this last sentence. Secondly, I don't think it's
correct. I think you'll find that prices have risen in real terms,
especially at the top end of the market, while at the same time there has
been a significant rise in levels of TCA contamination.

What I think is likely to happen in the cork industry is that as consumer
acceptance of Stelvin becomes widespread, so more bottlers will switch. The
drop in demand will reduce pressure on the industry to harvest too early.
Faced with the possibility of the demise of cork as a closure, the
manufacturers will eventually eliminate TCA contamination, and at that stage
a new equilibrium will be reached. However, when all the new cork oak
plantations begin to be fully mature, there WILL be a crisis of
overproduction, and new markets will have to be found.

I don't know how true it is, but I read some time ago that bottle closures
represents only 20% of the total demand for cork as a material. If that
dropped to zero, it wouldn't result in the death of the industry.

But as in all spheres of life, adaptability is the prerequisite of survival.
The cork industry faces competition, just as did many others in the past.
Those that adapted, changed to meet demands and new circumstances and
survived, and those that couldn't, didn't. It's up to the cork manufacturers
to react to a new reality. They have serious competition for bottle
closures, and their existing product is far from satisfactory. They'll
either change, or become a niche market, catering to an ever reducing number
of diehard traditionalists.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi loobyloo,

le/on Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:21:21 +0000, tu disais/you said:-

>On 30 Jan 2005 17:08:40 GMT, Michael Pronay wrote:
>
>>
>> OK then - how about the wax and cloth industry 200 years ago, when
>> the first moves to cork arised? Things *are* changing, and life
>> today is not like it has been 30, 50 or 150 years ago.
>>
>
>That's not going to be much of a consolation to the thousands of people who
>depend on producing wine corks as an explanation of why they're going to be
>out of a job. It's a important industrial sector in Portugal and its demise
>would damage the country's economy.

Not half as much a blow is it would be, if every time a corked wine was
poured down the drain, the consumer took legal action to recover their loss.
I think there is quite a good case for action to be taken under existing
consumer legislation, certainly in the UK. A product must be of
"merchantable quality", and must carry out the function for which it is
sold. Corks don't.

In any case, in my previous reply to you, I have dealt with the accuracy of
the cork manufacturers' claim that the entire viability of life and
civilisation as we know it in the Alentejo would collapse if winemakers
stopped using cork as a closure material. I don't think it's true, and I
think you should give some supporting evidence of it if you seek to convince
us.

>Of course even higher grade cork is going to taint the odd wine. I just
>think the suggestion to abandon cork altogether is disproportionate to the
>incovenience it causes.

I'd not argue in favour if its total abandonment. What I want is to be able
to choose freely, perhaps through some kind of parallel marketing strategy.
Cork closures through wine merchants etc and screwtops through supermarkets.

Just as I'd not want to force you to buy screwtops if you don't want to, I'd
hope that you would encourage winemakers to make both styles of closure
available.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Veggie Dave,

le/on Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:52:41 +0000, tu disais/you said:-

>In article >, Cwdjrx _
> writes
>>Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork structure
>>with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope screw caps soon
>>become universal.
>
>< delurk >
>
>What about artificial corks? Surely they have the practicality of
>screw-caps yet retain the romance of cork?
>
>< /delurk >

Hi Dave, welcome!!!

Glad we've got you to delurk.

However, I'm afraid that I have to say that any artificial corks I've seen
have been the very devil to pull. Even my trusty screwpull has difficulty in
persuading one of those to move! Nope, for all its faults, cork has some
extraordinary properties. I just don't find the current levels of
contamination acceptable.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:07:26 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:


>Not half as much a blow is it would be, if every time a corked wine was
>poured down the drain, the consumer took legal action to recover their loss.

And even better if the wine was passed all the way back the chainto
those that decide what type of stopper to use

>I think there is quite a good case for action to be taken under existing
>consumer legislation, certainly in the UK. A product must be of
>"merchantable quality", and must carry out the function for which it is
>sold. Corks don't.

Indeed, but note that retailers' laibility is limitied to 6 years
after the sale BTW. Not so good for your EP 1er crus.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

What's a matter, you'se cork dorks have nothing better to do then talk about
da durability of your putzes; what is dis here a alt.ciallis.schtup
newsgrope or what. All dis talk about yer schvanzes has me wonderin' vetter
you ought to be sent to de adult sites for getting yer ya-ya's out.

Oh that's C O R K not C O (oy-gevalt, C) K, never mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Emily Leftella as told to


Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Veggie Dave,
>
> le/on Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:52:41 +0000, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >In article >, Cwdjrx _
> > writes
> >>Besides the problem of corked wines, this failure of the cork structure
> >>with extended contact with wine is the reason I hope screw caps soon
> >>become universal.
> >
> >< delurk >
> >
> >What about artificial corks? Surely they have the practicality of
> >screw-caps yet retain the romance of cork?
> >
> >< /delurk >
>
> Hi Dave, welcome!!!
>
> Glad we've got you to delurk.
>
> However, I'm afraid that I have to say that any artificial corks I've seen
> have been the very devil to pull. Even my trusty screwpull has difficulty
in
> persuading one of those to move! Nope, for all its faults, cork has some
> extraordinary properties. I just don't find the current levels of
> contamination acceptable.
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

>>I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rate=ADs of up
to 30%.


>Why? Because it's not your personal experience. It isn't min=AD>e
either, but
>then we may be lucky/careful in our choice of supplier!

Ian,
I'm not sure how being careful with the supplier would mitigate the
cork issue since the supplier wouldn't be able to discern TCA until the
bottle was opened.

FWIW, screwcaps aren't perfect either. I'm seeing more and more
incidents of seal failures. IMO, they fail (as would corks) because
the wine is not shipped properly and it either freezes or gets quite
hot which in either case would force the wine against the seal and
leaking can occur. Perhaps it's just timing but I haven't seen the
same issue with corks to the same degree.

I hae the same problem corkscrews with synthetic corks but I haven't
had a seal fail within 12-24 months. I opened a few wines recent;y
with plastic stoppers that went back to the early to min 1990's and the
wine was fine but I had a bugger of a time getting the"cork" off of the
corkscrew.

I could agree with the parallel strategy. However that might mean double
inventory and stores carrying multiple's of cork and stelvins might have no
choice but to reduce selection.


"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi loobyloo,
>
> le/on Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:21:21 +0000, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>On 30 Jan 2005 17:08:40 GMT, Michael Pronay wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> OK then - how about the wax and cloth industry 200 years ago, when
>>> the first moves to cork arised? Things *are* changing, and life
>>> today is not like it has been 30, 50 or 150 years ago.
>>>
>>
>>That's not going to be much of a consolation to the thousands of people
>>who
>>depend on producing wine corks as an explanation of why they're going to
>>be
>>out of a job. It's a important industrial sector in Portugal and its
>>demise
>>would damage the country's economy.
>
> Not half as much a blow is it would be, if every time a corked wine was
> poured down the drain, the consumer took legal action to recover their
> loss.
> I think there is quite a good case for action to be taken under existing
> consumer legislation, certainly in the UK. A product must be of
> "merchantable quality", and must carry out the function for which it is
> sold. Corks don't.
>
> In any case, in my previous reply to you, I have dealt with the accuracy
> of
> the cork manufacturers' claim that the entire viability of life and
> civilisation as we know it in the Alentejo would collapse if winemakers
> stopped using cork as a closure material. I don't think it's true, and I
> think you should give some supporting evidence of it if you seek to
> convince
> us.
>
>>Of course even higher grade cork is going to taint the odd wine. I just
>>think the suggestion to abandon cork altogether is disproportionate to the
>>incovenience it causes.
>
> I'd not argue in favour if its total abandonment. What I want is to be
> able
> to choose freely, perhaps through some kind of parallel marketing
> strategy.
> Cork closures through wine merchants etc and screwtops through
> supermarkets.
>
> Just as I'd not want to force you to buy screwtops if you don't want to,
> I'd
> hope that you would encourage winemakers to make both styles of closure
> available.
>
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Bi!!,

le/on 31 Jan 2005 11:48:42 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

>>>I'm very skeptical about tastings which report failure rate? of up
>to 30%.

>>Why? Because it's not your personal experience. It isn't min?e
>either, but
>>then we may be lucky/careful in our choice of supplier!

>Ian,
>I'm not sure how being careful with the supplier would mitigate the
>cork issue since the supplier wouldn't be able to discern TCA until the
>bottle was opened.

Careless language on my part, trying to be too brief. Despite what Michael
says, I think there is evidence that some growers/bottlers are particularly
careful about their corks and that they get a statistically significant
lower proportion of corked wines. That's what I meant - with the
concommittant thought that retailers and restaurateurs are in a fairly good
position to know whose wines are more prone, whose less. Remember also that
I buy nearly all my wines from the grower so in my mind, supplier=grower.

>FWIW, screwcaps aren't perfect either. I'm seeing more and more
>incidents of seal failures.

Any idea what proprtion?


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Richard Neidich,

le/on Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:33:07 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>I could agree with the parallel strategy. However that might mean double
>inventory and stores carrying multiple's of cork and stelvins might have no
>choice but to reduce selection.

>> to choose freely, perhaps through some kind of parallel marketing
>> strategy.
>> Cork closures through wine merchants etc and screwtops through
>> supermarkets.
>>
>> Just as I'd not want to force you to buy screwtops if you don't want to,
>> I'd
>> hope that you would encourage winemakers to make both styles of closure
>> available.

Which is why I suggested that diferent closures should be sold through
different types of outlet.

But I doubt many shops would buy less than 12 of a wine, and could perfectly
well buy 6 under stelvin and 6 under cork.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare wrote:
> Salut/Hi Bi!!,
>
> le/on 31 Jan 2005 11:48:42 -0800, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >FWIW, screwcaps aren't perfect either. I'm seeing more and more
> >incidents of seal failures.
>
> Any idea what proprtion?
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare

We recently returned 7 out of 24 bottles of R H Phillips Chardonnay due
to leakage from the caps.

>>I'm not sure how being careful with the supplier would mitigate the
>>cork issue since the supplier wouldn't be able to discern TCA until the
>>bottle was opened.
>
>Careless language on my part, trying to be too brief.

I was just jerking your chain but forgot the obligatory :-) What would the
wine world be without a bit of good natured ribbing?
Bi!!

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:52:35 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>
>That said, it is my opinion that much of the rise in TCA contamination is
>due to too early harvesting of cork, ....

<huge snips before and after - a slash?>

Just curious: Is anything even modestly certain known about the
mechanism or chemistry that causes TCA to get into the cork? I
remember references to bacteria, chlorine, cleaning techniques etc.
but I wonder if there is something definitive known by now.

tia

Art Schubert
Traverse City, Michigan

Corks, once a living organism, can harbor spores that are related to
TCA. Cork producers sterilize corks to eliminate the problem; however,
if one spore survives (which happens), TCA evolves. There are no
producers who are either immune or prone to TCA. TCA happens to all
producers. One would think that quality corks (they do have "quality"
ratings, and the producers pay for that) would eliminate TCA. Not so.
There's no elimination short of finding other substances, and we're in
that process. Plastic corks have been tried (hard to get out, then put
back in the bottle). Many producers are giving screw caps a try as a
possible answer. We'll see. Winemakers have shared with me (I'm an
industry publicist, so I interview these guys on all matters relating
to the industry) that there's a chemistry that happens in the bottle
with bottle aging. The small amount of aeration that occurs from a cork
won't happen with screw caps. So, the wine's not going to be the same
as if it had been in a bottle with cork. Only time will tell. We're in
the experimental stages of "choice" development, and your purchasing
power will dictate where this all goes.

On 6 Feb 2005 09:27:25 -0800, "jo" >
wrote:

>The small amount of aeration that occurs from a cork
>won't happen with screw caps.

Not quite true. To be precise, the aeration through corks varies a
good deal. With screwtops the variation is a lot smaller. It is at
the low end of the porosity of cork, but within the cork range. For
numbers, see:
http://www.henschke.com.au/news/?id=12

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

tell that to winemakers who are very doubtful, and waiting in the wings
for time results versus screw cap industry propaganda -- jo

"jo" > wrote:

> tell that to winemakers who are very doubtful, and waiting in
> the wings for time results versus screw cap industry propaganda

Sorry, but the Australian Wine Research Institute is in no way
"screw cap industry propaganda".

M.

Salut/Hi jo,

le/on 6 Feb 2005 09:27:25 -0800, tu disais/you said:-
as a
>possible answer. We'll see. Winemakers have shared with me (I'm an
>industry publicist, so I interview these guys on all matters relating
>to the industry)

And you're claiming neutral objectivity with respect to wine glasses whose
design you're working on?

Right.

By the way, screwcaps do allow oxygen to enter the bottle - slowly. The REAL
reasons winery owners are reticent about changing are that they would need
to put in entirely new bottling lines (expensive) and that screwcaps aren't
yet perceived by most consumers are being acceptable.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website