Are there certain varietals that REQUIRE the presence of oak?

Are there any that FORBID it?

If I am at a restaurant looking at a wine list (without descriptions), can I
know which are oaky and which aren't simply by the varietal?

And finally (I'm looking for personal opinions here), do raw oysters go
better with non-oak. My personal opinion is yes, but I've only had non-oak
the last 2 times, far too few to reach such a broad conclusion, as there
may have also been other contributing factors.

Thanks in advance.

\/

Vincent wrote:
> Are there certain varietals that REQUIRE the presence of oak?
>
> Are there any that FORBID it?

By "the presence of oak," do you mean the flavors of new oak, Vincent?
Aside from those wines vinified in stainless steel, most all wine is
aged (and possibly fermented) in oak barrels of one size or another.
Many of those wines, however, won't taste "oaky" because the barrels
aren't new (and most of the "oaky" flavor has been previously
extracted). AFAIK, no rules specifically forbid oak aging, but there
may be some regulations that require it. I am not familiar enough with
various regional rules to know, though.

>
> If I am at a restaurant looking at a wine list (without descriptions), can I
> know which are oaky and which aren't simply by the varietal?

Certain wines/regions have a tradition of not being overtly oaky: NZ
Sauvignons, Rieslings, Chablis, most white wines from the Loire and
Alsace and Italy. However, especially in CA or for "International"
wines, all bets are off. I've had Viogniers and Sauvignon Blancs from
CA that were so oaky as to be unrecognizable *sigh* One thing I've
noted is that the "Reserve" designation on a CA white wine is a fairly
reliable indicator for heavy-handed use of oak.

>
> And finally (I'm looking for personal opinions here), do raw oysters go
> better with non-oak. My personal opinion is yes, but I've only had non-oak
> the last 2 times, far too few to reach such a broad conclusion, as there
> may have also been other contributing factors.

A classic pairing with raw oysters is Muscadet from the Loire, a
distinctly non-oaky wine; another would be Champagne, again non-oaky.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton > wrote:

> AFAIK, no rules specifically forbid oak aging, but there may be
> some regulations that require it. I am not familiar enough with
> various regional rules to know, though.

There are many regulations which require oak ageing: Rioja
(Crianza, Reserva, Gran Reserva), all other Spanish Reserva & Gran
Reserva wines; Chianti, Brunello, Barolo, Barbaresco and many
others, the longest unfortified requirement being 6 years for
Chteau-Chalon (vin jaune from the French Jura), fortified it's 20
years for vintage Madeira.

But no single regulation requires the use of new oak (totally or
in part), some (as vin jaune) even ruling out new oak.

M.

Mark Lipton > wrote:

> Certain wines/regions have a tradition of not being overtly
> oaky: NZ Sauvignons, Rieslings, Chablis, most white wines from
> the Loire and Alsace and Italy.

Add most whites from Austria: Grüner Veltliner, Rieslings,
Sauvignons, and Pinot Blancs etc. Avoid Chardonnay to be on the
safe side.

M.

Mark Lipton wrote:

> Certain wines/regions have a tradition of not being overtly oaky: NZ
> Sauvignons, Rieslings, Chablis, most white wines from the Loire and
> Alsace and Italy. However, especially in CA or for "International"
> wines, all bets are off. I've had Viogniers and Sauvignon Blancs from
> CA that were so oaky as to be unrecognizable *sigh* One thing I've
> noted is that the "Reserve" designation on a CA white wine is a fairly
> reliable indicator for heavy-handed use of oak.

I would add to this Mark that American oak seems to be the predominant
material for barrels in Australia and it makes the oakiness even more
pronounced than one would find in a California wine using French oak.

"Bill Loftin" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I would add to this Mark that American oak seems to be the predominant
> material for barrels in Australia and it makes the oakiness even more
> pronounced than one would find in a California wine using French oak.

Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing apples and
oranges. French oak is much more restrained - especially on the nose.
American oak has a racy nose that I find more interesting than French on
some wines (Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of French
oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for Bordeaux
blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.

Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)

Tom S

"Bill Loftin" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I would add to this Mark that American oak seems to be the predominant
> material for barrels in Australia and it makes the oakiness even more
> pronounced than one would find in a California wine using French oak.

Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing apples and
oranges. French oak is much more restrained - especially on the nose.
American oak has a racy nose that I find more interesting than French on
some wines (Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of French
oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for Bordeaux
blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.

Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)

Tom S

"Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> Are there certain varietals that REQUIRE the presence of oak?

A loaded question! OK, I'll bite. IMO the one white wine that seems to
require (and indeed _devour_) oak is Chardonnay.

> Are there any that FORBID it?

Muscat comes to mind.

> If I am at a restaurant looking at a wine list (without descriptions), can
> I
> know which are oaky and which aren't simply by the varietal?

Not really, but it's pretty safe to say that most California Chardonnay and
white Burgundies (except for Chablis) will have seen oak for at least part
of their "lives".

> And finally (I'm looking for personal opinions here), do raw oysters go
> better with non-oak?

Personal opinion? Yes!

Here's an interesting note:
At a recent, outrageously expen$ive dinner at a highly touted quasi-French
restaurant, one of the courses was lobster, accompanied by a very oaky -
even by my standards - Chardonnay. It was a near *perfect* match!
I guess the lesson is that oaky white wines go well with at least _some_
rich foods.

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Bill Loftin" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> I would add to this Mark that American oak seems to be
>> the predominant
>> material for barrels in Australia and it makes the
>> oakiness even more
>> pronounced than one would find in a California wine using
>> French oak.
>
> Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing
> apples and oranges. French oak is much more restrained -
> especially on the nose. American oak has a racy nose that
> I find more interesting than French on some wines
> (Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of
> French oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for
> Bordeaux blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.
>
> Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of
> mine. :^)
>
> Tom S
Which raises an interesting the question - one occasionally
hears oak connoisseurs banging on about the various merits
of using Vosges vs Limousin vs Nevers and other French oak -
are there many different types of American oak used for
barriques?
Martin

Michael Pronay wrote:
> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
>
>>AFAIK, no rules specifically forbid oak aging, but there may be
>>some regulations that require it. I am not familiar enough with
>>various regional rules to know, though.
>
>
> There are many regulations which require oak ageing: Rioja
> (Crianza, Reserva, Gran Reserva), all other Spanish Reserva & Gran
> Reserva wines; Chianti, Brunello, Barolo, Barbaresco and many
> others, the longest unfortified requirement being 6 years for
> Chteau-Chalon (vin jaune from the French Jura), fortified it's 20
> years for vintage Madeira.
>
> But no single regulation requires the use of new oak (totally or
> in part), some (as vin jaune) even ruling out new oak.

Thank you for coming to my rescue, Michael. I suspected that Spanish
rules would require oak aging, given the traditional style of Rioja, but
didn't have the time to look it up myself (especially when people like
you have this knowledge "at your fingertips").

Mark Lipton

Michael Pronay wrote:
> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
>
>>AFAIK, no rules specifically forbid oak aging, but there may be
>>some regulations that require it. I am not familiar enough with
>>various regional rules to know, though.
>
>
> There are many regulations which require oak ageing: Rioja
> (Crianza, Reserva, Gran Reserva), all other Spanish Reserva & Gran
> Reserva wines; Chianti, Brunello, Barolo, Barbaresco and many
> others, the longest unfortified requirement being 6 years for
> Chteau-Chalon (vin jaune from the French Jura), fortified it's 20
> years for vintage Madeira.
>
> But no single regulation requires the use of new oak (totally or
> in part), some (as vin jaune) even ruling out new oak.

Thank you for coming to my rescue, Michael. I suspected that Spanish
rules would require oak aging, given the traditional style of Rioja, but
didn't have the time to look it up myself (especially when people like
you have this knowledge "at your fingertips").

Mark Lipton

"Tom S" wrote in message
>
> Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing apples and
> oranges. French oak is much more restrained - especially on the nose.
> American oak has a racy nose that I find more interesting than French on
> some wines (Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of French
> oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for Bordeaux
> blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.
>
> Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>
> Tom S

Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though I
have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is somewhat
pronounced, but does not get in the of the other flavors present (some
American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
department). Do you agree?

\/

"Tom S" wrote in message
>
> Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing apples and
> oranges. French oak is much more restrained - especially on the nose.
> American oak has a racy nose that I find more interesting than French on
> some wines (Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of French
> oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for Bordeaux
> blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.
>
> Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>
> Tom S

Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though I
have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is somewhat
pronounced, but does not get in the of the other flavors present (some
American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
department). Do you agree?

\/

[oops, typo in original reply, missed a word ("WAY"), here it is again]

"Tom S" wrote in message
>
> Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing apples and
> oranges. French oak is much more restrained - especially on the nose.
> American oak has a racy nose that I find more interesting than French on
> some wines (Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of French
> oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for Bordeaux
> blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.
>
> Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>
> Tom S

Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though I
have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is somewhat
pronounced, but does not get in the WAY of the other flavors present (some
American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
department). Do you agree?

\/

Martin Field wrote:

>>Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing
>>apples and oranges. French oak is much more restrained -
>>especially on the nose. American oak has a racy nose that
>>I find more interesting than French on some wines
>>(Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of
>>French oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for
>>Bordeaux blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.
>>Tom S

> Which raises an interesting the question - one occasionally
> hears oak connoisseurs banging on about the various merits
> of using Vosges vs Limousin vs Nevers and other French oak -
> are there many different types of American oak used for
> barriques?
> Martin

Martin we have a member of this group that is in the barrel business
and maybe he will answer your question in detail. The forests of
North America were not denuded in the past like Europe and there is
little or no business of growing oak trees. The French oaks are in
well managed forests and the ones used for barrels are usually over
a hundred years old. In the US, the barrel makers were making whiskey
barrels and oak has been so plentiful, they hardly had to pay for it.
Just walk around and find one. In the US the wood is sawed and kiln
dried. In Europe it is split and air dried for a couple of years.
There is probably enough oak in 80% of the states to satisfy the US
barrel makers. I would think that the oak that is used in Australia
comes from Arkansas or Missouri where a lot of the barrel making is
centered.

Martin Field wrote:

>>Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing
>>apples and oranges. French oak is much more restrained -
>>especially on the nose. American oak has a racy nose that
>>I find more interesting than French on some wines
>>(Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of
>>French oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for
>>Bordeaux blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.
>>Tom S

> Which raises an interesting the question - one occasionally
> hears oak connoisseurs banging on about the various merits
> of using Vosges vs Limousin vs Nevers and other French oak -
> are there many different types of American oak used for
> barriques?
> Martin

Martin we have a member of this group that is in the barrel business
and maybe he will answer your question in detail. The forests of
North America were not denuded in the past like Europe and there is
little or no business of growing oak trees. The French oaks are in
well managed forests and the ones used for barrels are usually over
a hundred years old. In the US, the barrel makers were making whiskey
barrels and oak has been so plentiful, they hardly had to pay for it.
Just walk around and find one. In the US the wood is sawed and kiln
dried. In Europe it is split and air dried for a couple of years.
There is probably enough oak in 80% of the states to satisfy the US
barrel makers. I would think that the oak that is used in Australia
comes from Arkansas or Missouri where a lot of the barrel making is
centered.

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:44:46 GMT, Mark Lipton >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>A classic pairing with raw oysters is Muscadet from the Loire, a
>>distinctly non-oaky wine; another would be Champagne, again non-oaky.
>
>
> Amphibolite, by Domaine de la Luvetiere, is a Muscadet so good that
> you might not believe it is Muscadet ;-)))
>
> Ehm, there are some oaky Champagnes, our friend Francis Boulard makes
> a solera type Champagne with a very well integrated oakiness...

I was expecting someone to point that out, Mike. By oaky, do you mean
that f6 uses new oak for flavor, or that he oak ages for rounding out
the wine?

Mark Lipton

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:44:46 GMT, Mark Lipton >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>A classic pairing with raw oysters is Muscadet from the Loire, a
>>distinctly non-oaky wine; another would be Champagne, again non-oaky.
>
>
> Amphibolite, by Domaine de la Luvetiere, is a Muscadet so good that
> you might not believe it is Muscadet ;-)))
>
> Ehm, there are some oaky Champagnes, our friend Francis Boulard makes
> a solera type Champagne with a very well integrated oakiness...

I was expecting someone to point that out, Mike. By oaky, do you mean
that f6 uses new oak for flavor, or that he oak ages for rounding out
the wine?

Mark Lipton

"Bill Loftin" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In the US the wood is sawed and kiln
> dried. In Europe it is split and air dried for a couple of years.

That's a gross oversimplification. American oak is a different species from
French. It (American oak) has a denser structure of tyloses, which are
structures in the wood that cross the sieve tubes and block the flow of
liquid. That permits permits American oak to be sawn into staves without
leakage occurring in the resulting barrels. French oak needs to be split
along the grain to preclude leakage.

While it is true that most American barrels are made from kiln dried and
steam bent wood, those are typically made for the whiskey distilleries.
American barrels made for wine are usually air dried and fire bent in the
same manner as French or other European barrels.

> I would think that the oak that is used in Australia
> comes from Arkansas or Missouri where a lot of the barrel making is
> centered.

Don't forget Kentucky and Oregon. There are probably other states as well.

Tom S

"Vincent" > wrote in message
news
> "Tom S" wrote in message
>> Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>>
>> Tom S
>
> Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
> the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
> Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though
> I
> have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
> YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is
> somewhat
> pronounced, but does not get in the way of the other flavors present (some
> American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
> department). Do you agree?

Yes, and I believe I know why. It's my experience that Chardonnay and oak
integrate best if the wine is fermented in the barrel, and left therein - on
its lees - for the entire duration of barrel aging. The French claim that
the lees "feed" the wine, and although that may be a bit anthropomorphic it
does seem to describe the phenomenon in a general sense. As opposed to that
are wines that are tank fermented and put "clean" into new barrels for
aging. This tends to result in the typical "wood plank" or 2x4 character
that wine critics love to hate.

As far as Spanish Chardonnays go, I have little experience - but I was very
impressed by one I tasted a few years ago in Spain. It had been fermented
in new French oak, and was really very nice - especially for the price,
which was ~$12US at the time (October 2001). I'd recognize the name if I
saw it again, but it isn't Vega Sindoa.

Tom S

"Vincent" > wrote in message
news
> "Tom S" wrote in message
>> Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>>
>> Tom S
>
> Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
> the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
> Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though
> I
> have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
> YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is
> somewhat
> pronounced, but does not get in the way of the other flavors present (some
> American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
> department). Do you agree?

Yes, and I believe I know why. It's my experience that Chardonnay and oak
integrate best if the wine is fermented in the barrel, and left therein - on
its lees - for the entire duration of barrel aging. The French claim that
the lees "feed" the wine, and although that may be a bit anthropomorphic it
does seem to describe the phenomenon in a general sense. As opposed to that
are wines that are tank fermented and put "clean" into new barrels for
aging. This tends to result in the typical "wood plank" or 2x4 character
that wine critics love to hate.

As far as Spanish Chardonnays go, I have little experience - but I was very
impressed by one I tasted a few years ago in Spain. It had been fermented
in new French oak, and was really very nice - especially for the price,
which was ~$12US at the time (October 2001). I'd recognize the name if I
saw it again, but it isn't Vega Sindoa.

Tom S

Hi Vincent,

Such a simple question to ask and one that is almost impossible to answer!
You've had a lot of replies in this thread and some of them were even on
topic!! (;-)))

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:18:01 GMT, Vincent >
wrote:

Firstly, as others have said, it's quite important to differentiate
between _new_ oak which gives the flavour profile you're thinking about,
and old oak (3rd or 4th usage) which gives very little "oakiness" as such
but helps a wine to gain complexity.

> Are there certain varietals that REQUIRE the presence of oak?

Not of themselves, no, but I think it's fair to say that (as Tom S said)
Chardonnay is the varietal which most often seems to require it (and often
IMO gets too much). However when properly handled, and in a wine with
enough fruit to require it, oak doesn't have to dominate.

> Are there any that FORBID it?

No, though there are a few which get it very rarely. Muscadet, Champagne
(not a varietal, admittedly, but a wine easily recognised) Sauvigon
especially from NZ, but also from some french regions. Bordeaux, Bergerac,
Pouilly-s-Loire and its better known siblings are fairly often made
without oak.

Viognier is often made without oak, so are many Alsace cepages, though
none are ruined by its judicious use.

> If I am at a restaurant looking at a wine list (without descriptions),
> can I know which are oaky and which aren't simply by the varietal?

Not really with any certainty, though often Sauvignons mention it if they
use oak (proudly,ty Domionicioo).

> And finally (I'm looking for personal opinions here), do raw oysters go
> better with non-oak.

IMO, yes. Just for the anecdote,(cooked oysters) we ate out with Tom S
tonight at a seafood restaurant here in Los Angeles before heading East
tomorrow morning, and I had their Oyster Stew (I was curious about the
dish) (followed by a seafood Jamabalaya. Both were excellent, and both
went extremely well with the Austrian Gruner Veltiner by (???) Jurschisch.
Dreadful label, nice wine with little signs of oak. I have once had a
sweet wine with raw oysters, done as a challenge by Dominici, and while it
was a lot less awful than I expected, it wasn't a _great_ match.

All the best

Ian Hoare (despite the sig!)
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/



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john shaw wrote in newspsir73jen4tgne9@toshiba-user:


> Both were excellent, and both went extremely well
> with the Austrian Gruner Veltiner by (???) Jurschisch. Dreadful
> label, nice wine with little signs of oak.

It's Jurtschitsch from Langenlois/Kamptal.
<http://www.jurtschitsch.com/english/index.html>

> Ian Hoare (despite the sig!)

Regards, Robert

"john shaw" > wrote:

> Both were excellent, and both went extremely well with the
> Austrian Gruner Veltiner by (???) Jurschisch.

Almost. Jur_t_schi_t_sch.

> Dreadful label,

Dreadful? Hmmm, in this case it can't have been their standard
label which is far from dreadful:

<http://www.jurtschitsch.com/c_wein/weine_weiss_liste.html>

I think it might have been their "GrüVe":

<http://www.jurtschitsch.com/c_wein/weine_weiss/w_02.html>

Note that it's an artist label. Christian Ludwig Attersee,
Bratisklava-born painter living in Austria, has been painting the
labels since 1987.

More on this wine - always the earliest and lightest bottling of
Jurtschitsch's Grüner Veltliner portfolio - and on the artist,
including a label gallery - to be seen he

<http://www.grueve.com/main_en.html>

> nice wine with little signs of oak.

GrüVe is 100% stainless steel.

M.

"john shaw" > wrote:

> Both were excellent, and both went extremely well with the
> Austrian Gruner Veltiner by (???) Jurschisch.

Almost. Jur_t_schi_t_sch.

> Dreadful label,

Dreadful? Hmmm, in this case it can't have been their standard
label which is far from dreadful:

<http://www.jurtschitsch.com/c_wein/weine_weiss_liste.html>

I think it might have been their "GrüVe":

<http://www.jurtschitsch.com/c_wein/weine_weiss/w_02.html>

Note that it's an artist label. Christian Ludwig Attersee,
Bratisklava-born painter living in Austria, has been painting the
labels since 1987.

More on this wine - always the earliest and lightest bottling of
Jurtschitsch's Grüner Veltliner portfolio - and on the artist,
including a label gallery - to be seen he

<http://www.grueve.com/main_en.html>

> nice wine with little signs of oak.

GrüVe is 100% stainless steel.

M.

"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "john shaw" > wrote:
>
>> Both were excellent, and both went extremely well with the
>> Austrian Gruner Veltiner by (???) Jurschisch.
>
> Almost. Jur_t_schi_t_sch.
>
>> Dreadful label,
>
> Dreadful? Hmmm, in this case it can't have been their standard
> label which is far from dreadful:
>
> <http://www.jurtschitsch.com/c_wein/weine_weiss_liste.html>
>
> I think it might have been their "GrüVe":
>
> <http://www.jurtschitsch.com/c_wein/weine_weiss/w_02.html>
Yes, that was it. I agree with Ian re the label. :^P
Clever name though - a little play on words.

I was expecting the wine to be quite firmly acidic, which it was, but I'd
have liked it to have been bigger and more complex. Maybe I have to try the
stuff with the classier label...

Tom S

Tom S wrote:

> "Vincent" > wrote in message
> news >
>>"Tom S" wrote in message
>>
>>>Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>>>
>>>Tom S
>>
>>Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
>>the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
>>Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though
>>I
>>have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
>>YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is
>>somewhat
>>pronounced, but does not get in the way of the other flavors present (some
>>American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
>>department). Do you agree?
>
>
> Yes, and I believe I know why. It's my experience that Chardonnay and oak
> integrate best if the wine is fermented in the barrel, and left therein - on
> its lees - for the entire duration of barrel aging. The French claim that
> the lees "feed" the wine, and although that may be a bit anthropomorphic it
> does seem to describe the phenomenon in a general sense. As opposed to that
> are wines that are tank fermented and put "clean" into new barrels for
> aging. This tends to result in the typical "wood plank" or 2x4 character
> that wine critics love to hate.

I can easily believe, Tom, that the interior surface of the oak barrel
could be modified during the fermentation. Most trivially, the yeast
deposits (the lees) could adhere to the inner surface, hindering the
extraction of flavor by the wine. Alternatively, the yeast could
actually metabolize some of the flavorants, rendering them more
"mellow." Certainly, the increased temperature of a fermenting barrel
should promote the extraction of things from the wood.

Mark Lipton

"Tom S" > wrote:

[Austrian Jurtschitsch's "GrüVe"]

> I was expecting the wine to be quite firmly acidic, which it
> was, but I'd have liked it to have been bigger and more complex.

"GrüVe" is Jurtschitsch's most basic Veltliner, always bottled and
marketed in November/December of the harvest year. It's an
uncomplicated, easy going quaffing wine, one I would order on the
terrace of a snack bar, not in a serious eatery. But then prices
leap in incredible increments for any wine leaving Austria heading
over the pond ... :-(

> Maybe I have to try the stuff with the classier label...

You should definitely - heads and shoulders above GrüVe!

M.

"Tom S" > wrote:

[Austrian Jurtschitsch's "GrüVe"]

> I was expecting the wine to be quite firmly acidic, which it
> was, but I'd have liked it to have been bigger and more complex.

"GrüVe" is Jurtschitsch's most basic Veltliner, always bottled and
marketed in November/December of the harvest year. It's an
uncomplicated, easy going quaffing wine, one I would order on the
terrace of a snack bar, not in a serious eatery. But then prices
leap in incredible increments for any wine leaving Austria heading
over the pond ... :-(

> Maybe I have to try the stuff with the classier label...

You should definitely - heads and shoulders above GrüVe!

M.

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Tom S wrote:
>
>> "Vincent" > wrote in message
>> news >>
>>>"Tom S" wrote in message
>>>
>>>>Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>>>>
>>>>Tom S
>>>
>>>Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
>>>the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
>>>Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though
>>>I
>>>have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
>>>YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is
>>>somewhat
>>>pronounced, but does not get in the way of the other flavors present
>>>(some
>>>American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
>>>department). Do you agree?
>>
>>
>> Yes, and I believe I know why. It's my experience that Chardonnay and
>> oak integrate best if the wine is fermented in the barrel, and left
>> therein - on its lees - for the entire duration of barrel aging. The
>> French claim that the lees "feed" the wine, and although that may be a
>> bit anthropomorphic it does seem to describe the phenomenon in a general
>> sense. As opposed to that are wines that are tank fermented and put
>> "clean" into new barrels for aging. This tends to result in the typical
>> "wood plank" or 2x4 character that wine critics love to hate.
>
> I can easily believe, Tom, that the interior surface of the oak barrel
> could be modified during the fermentation. Most trivially, the yeast
> deposits (the lees) could adhere to the inner surface, hindering the
> extraction of flavor by the wine.

Yes, but the occlusion of the wood surface isn't too significant except at
the _bottom_ of the barrel.

Alternatively, the yeast could
> actually metabolize some of the flavorants, rendering them more "mellow".

Yes, in situ "fining" by the action of the yeast is certainly significant.
That same fining action is believed responsible for precipitation of
oxidation products from the so called "brown juice" treatment of the juice
(no SO2 at crush).

Certainly, the increased temperature of a fermenting barrel
> should promote the extraction of things from the wood.

I doubt that the temperature increase of ~10°F over the course of a week or
so amounts to much in that regard. Even if it did, that would merely move
forward the time the winemaker deems the wine ready to be moved out of
barrel.

Tom S

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Tom S wrote:
>
>> "Vincent" > wrote in message
>> news >>
>>>"Tom S" wrote in message
>>>
>>>>Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)
>>>>
>>>>Tom S
>>>
>>>Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address
>>>the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite
>>>Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though
>>>I
>>>have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for
>>>YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is
>>>somewhat
>>>pronounced, but does not get in the way of the other flavors present
>>>(some
>>>American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this
>>>department). Do you agree?
>>
>>
>> Yes, and I believe I know why. It's my experience that Chardonnay and
>> oak integrate best if the wine is fermented in the barrel, and left
>> therein - on its lees - for the entire duration of barrel aging. The
>> French claim that the lees "feed" the wine, and although that may be a
>> bit anthropomorphic it does seem to describe the phenomenon in a general
>> sense. As opposed to that are wines that are tank fermented and put
>> "clean" into new barrels for aging. This tends to result in the typical
>> "wood plank" or 2x4 character that wine critics love to hate.
>
> I can easily believe, Tom, that the interior surface of the oak barrel
> could be modified during the fermentation. Most trivially, the yeast
> deposits (the lees) could adhere to the inner surface, hindering the
> extraction of flavor by the wine.

Yes, but the occlusion of the wood surface isn't too significant except at
the _bottom_ of the barrel.

Alternatively, the yeast could
> actually metabolize some of the flavorants, rendering them more "mellow".

Yes, in situ "fining" by the action of the yeast is certainly significant.
That same fining action is believed responsible for precipitation of
oxidation products from the so called "brown juice" treatment of the juice
(no SO2 at crush).

Certainly, the increased temperature of a fermenting barrel
> should promote the extraction of things from the wood.

I doubt that the temperature increase of ~10°F over the course of a week or
so amounts to much in that regard. Even if it did, that would merely move
forward the time the winemaker deems the wine ready to be moved out of
barrel.

Tom S

Another thing to consider is that the insides of many oak barrels are
"toasted" and the degree of this heat treatment can have an influence on
the taste of the liquid stored therein. The most extreme toasting
probably is for bourbon whisky barrels that are heated enough to produce
a black charcoal surface on the interior. The charcoal perhaps helps
remove some of the trace compounds that make unaged bourbon extremely
harsh.

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