If there was a Last Supper, what would the wine have been like?

I apologize if this gets asked every year at this time. :-)

On Apr 2, 11:51*pm, Young Martle > wrote:
> If there was a Last Supper, what would the wine have been like?
>
> I apologize if this gets asked every year at this time. :-)

No real idea. My guess is that it is likely to have been offdry and
low alcohol, as I assume it was going off native yeasts, without temp
control, etc.

DaleW wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 13:08:49 -0700 (PDT):

> On Apr 2, 11:51 pm, Young Martle > wrote:
>> If there was a Last Supper, what would the wine have been
>> like?
>>
>> I apologize if this gets asked every year at this time. :-)

>No real idea. My guess is that it is likely to have been offdry and
>low alcohol, as I assume it was going off native yeasts, without temp
>control, etc.

Even high class Roman wines could not have been matured very well before
the invention of the cork and I doubt that the seder wine for a not very
wealthy bunch of Palestinians would have been very great.

I'm no expert on wine history but I do wonder how Roman wines really
tasted, even the Falernian they raved about. I'm told Roman taste in
wine was not very sophisticated and they liked to mix it with honey and
other things. Of course, they originally worried about drunkenness and
would dilute it with water. Didn't Cicero sneer that Cataline was very
self-indulgent in drinking wine mixed with less than 50% water?

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Apr 3, 3:44*pm, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> *DaleW *wrote *on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 13:08:49 -0700 (PDT):
>
> > On Apr 2, 11:51 pm, Young Martle > wrote:
> >> If there was a Last Supper, what would the wine have been
> >> like?
>
> >> I apologize if this gets asked every year at this time. :-)
> >No real idea. My guess is that it is likely to have been offdry and
> >low alcohol, as I assume it was going off native yeasts, without temp
> >control, etc.
>
> Even high class Roman wines could not have been matured very well before
> the invention of the cork and I doubt that the seder wine for a not very
> wealthy bunch of Palestinians would have been very great.
>
> I'm no expert on wine history but I do wonder how Roman wines really
> tasted, even the Falernian they raved about. I'm told Roman taste in
> wine was not very sophisticated and they liked to mix it with honey and
> other things. Of course, they originally worried about drunkenness and
> would dilute it with water. Didn't Cicero sneer that Cataline was very
> self-indulgent in drinking wine mixed with less than 50% water?


Wine was well established in many regions of the world at that time,
and made in a few countries such as China from at least a few thousand
years BC. It sometimes was made from grapes and sometimes with other
fruit or other foods that could be fermented. Some liquid wine from
China that is several thousand years old has been found sealed in
bronze containers. It likely would be dangerous to taste wine sealed
in many bronzes this long, and the taste likely would now be awful.
The Greeks and Romans often sealed some of their better wines in
amphoras, and some still containing wine have been found in ancient
ships sunk at sea. Even until recently, and perhaps even now, a few
wines were sealed and aged in amphoras in Crete, among other places.
Sometimes the amphora was stored underground. For short term storage,
a layer of olive oil on top of the wine sometimes was used to help
protect the wine from oxygen in the air. The Egyptians often sealed
containers of wine in the tomb, but so far as I know, these containers
were all found dry. Thus at the BCE-AD transition, likely many types
of wines would be possible. Some might be made from grapes and some
from other fruits including dates. Some might contain added spices and
herbs. Some might be very sweet because they were fermented from
concentrated grape juice obtained by boiling off part of the water
from the grape juice. Some likely contained honey, added before or
after the wine was fermented. It has been speculated that the Romans
may have made a late harvest sweet wine in the manner that Yquem and
others are made today. The Romans sometimes heat treated amphoras of
their favorite wines and aged them for very many years - an early
version of Madeira? My guess is that ordinary people of the region
would drink the current vintage of one on the less expensive wines of
the region. They might add spices or herbs, honey, and some water if
the wine did not taste very good. However a king in the region might
drink something much better such as a wine mentioned in the Richard
Strauss opera Salome that is based on Oscar Wilde's Salome. Herod
asked Salome to drink with him a costly wine which Caesar himself had
sent to Herod.

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 21:51:23 -0700 (PDT), cwdjrxyz
> wrote:

>SNIP<
>others are made today. The Romans sometimes heat treated amphoras of
>their favorite wines and aged them for very many years - an early
>version of Madeira?
>SNIP>

Not based any knowledge of wine making for that time, I was think
Madeira.

On Apr 4, 12:52*pm, Young Martle > wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 21:51:23 -0700 (PDT), cwdjrxyz
>
> > wrote:
> >SNIP<
> >others are made today. The Romans sometimes heat treated amphoras of
> >their favorite wines and aged them for very many years - an early
> >version of Madeira?
> >SNIP>
>
> Not based any knowledge of wine making for that time, I was think
> Madeira.

In the 1981 edition of Alexis Lichine's New Encyclopedia of Wine and
Spirits, you find much information about ancient Roman wines starting
on p2.

" But the fumarium was intended to mellow the wine by heat rather than
by smoke - the principle was not unlike that of maturing Madeira near
ovens - and the jars were protected by a thick coat of plaster or
pitch."
" In old age, some of them would be, as Tovey said, 'reduced to a
syrup and rendered so muddy and thick they had to be strained through
cloths and dissolved in hot water'."
"The wines most prized in Rome were luscious, less in need of acrid
preservatives - they probably resembled the Lagrima of today."

cwdjrxyz wrote on Sun, 4 Apr 2010 12:24:36 -0700 (PDT):

> On Apr 4, 12:52 pm, Young Martle > wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 21:51:23 -0700 (PDT), cwdjrxyz
>>
>> > wrote:
> >> SNIP<
> >> others are made today. The Romans sometimes heat treated
> >> amphoras of their favorite wines and aged them for very
> >> many years - an early version of Madeira?
> >SNIP>>
>> Not based any knowledge of wine making for that time, I was
>> think Madeira.

> In the 1981 edition of Alexis Lichine's New Encyclopedia of
> Wine and Spirits, you find much information about ancient
> Roman wines starting on p2.

Thanks to everyone for the interesting information on wine history and
also the references. I know the stories about the origin of the Greek
taste for Retsina but I've only tried the stuff twice and I don't intend
to try again :-)

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:03:53 -0400, "James Silverton"
> wrote:



>Thanks to everyone for the interesting information on wine history and
>also the references. I know the stories about the origin of the Greek
>taste for Retsina but I've only tried the stuff twice and I don't intend
>to try again :-)


May I ask why you tried it the 2nd time? :-)

Retsina is not available where I live but I would have to try it no
matter what horror stories I've heard.

If it is so terrible, who is drinking this stuff? Are there foods that
make it palatable?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Ed wrote on Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:00:02 -0500:

>> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:03:53 -0400, "James Silverton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to everyone for the interesting information on wine
>>> history and also the references. I know the stories about
>>> the origin of the Greek taste for Retsina but I've only
>>> tried the stuff twice and I don't intend to try again :-)
>>
>> May I ask why you tried it the 2nd time? :-)
>>
>> Retsina is not available where I live but I would have to try
>> it no matter what horror stories I've heard.
>>
>> If it is so terrible, who is drinking this stuff? Are there
>> foods that make it palatable?
>>
>> Inquiring minds want to know.

> Retsina (like grappa, eau de vie, marc and other
> after-pressing products although retsina not a distillate) is
> found in a broad range of qualities. A lot is akin to lacquer
> or shellac with a hint of jet fuel on the nose.

> But, I had the privilege several years ago when on a NATO
> operation to be invited to the home of a Greek AF general who
> served a friend and me a magnificent dinner topped with a
> delicious lamb roast. Red wines accompanied the meal, but in
> conversation after dinner he asked if we would like to try
> something special.

> He went to the basement and returned with a crystal pitcher
> filled with a glowing pink wine, brilliant and clear,
> reflecting the living room lights. He filled small glasses and
> we sat to hear the story.

> His father had four sons. He lived on a small vineyard and
> olive grove. Each year his father takes some of the grapes and
> makes this pink retsina. He makes four barrels per year and
> give one to each son. We all agreed that he had received a
> very special birthright.

> That was retsina at its finest. Clearly such wines are not
> going to be found in American markets and would probably be
> difficult to find even in Greece.

I tried it the second time about a year after the first time to make
sure my first impressions were correct. Alas, I'll never meet the
wonderful stuff you describe :-(

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not