Greeting to all;

Visited for 10 days with family in St. Helena, Napa Valley who are in the
wine business there and very well regarded.

You may remember that I solicited suggestions from the group but only
visited 2 restaurants (professional chef in the house (Sicilian)) and 2
wineries during our stay.

Restaurants:

Chez Panisse, Berkley Ca Lunch in the Cafe:

As my Chef daughter would say, "They didn't blow my skirt up."

The food was well prepared and served but somewhat on the bland side. I'll
spare you a complete listing but for US $500 we didn't get good value.

I've lost my wine notes but the menu listing tells me it was an Aravjo SB
(Yr?) that I was quite impressed with. Round and soft grassy notes with a
lovely clean mouth feel and long lasting finish. The Rhone red recommended
by the staff was an eminently forgettable quaff that fell far short of the
mark.

Tre Vigne in St. Helena Ca Lunch:

As I would say, "They really blew MY skirt up!"

Food was wonderful; service just short of fawning and wines wonderful over a
3 hour lunch for 3.

Pizzetta Con Aglio, Fritti Stagionale, Calamari Alla Griglia
Lattuga Mista
Pizza Margherita
Ravioli Di Piselli, Calamarata Con Cozze, Pappardelle Con Sugo Di Conigli
Pollo Alla Cacciatore, Pesce Del Giorno, Ipploglosso Con Fava

Wines included;
Saracina SB 2002, Mendocino County
Light grassy nose with a hint of lemon; Clean and fruity round mouth feel
with a medium finish. It was really lovely and merited 2 bottles.

Campas(?)-Barbera D'Alba 2001
Soft fruity nose; Full fruity and slightly acidic mouth with a nice medium
finish. It drank very well and all pronounced it more than acceptable.

Miscellaneous wines;

Unfortunately I only took notes on a very few of the boggling array of wines
presented over the 10 days;
At the top of the house has to be:

Chateau D'Yquem 1990 Sur Saluces.
What can I say?? Full, Sweet, permeated by that Pouriture Noble. Leftovers
even better before breakfast the next day!!!

Chateau Haut Brion 1983
Too much for a peasant like me.... Tobacco, barnyard, black berries,
multi-layered and complex. Beautifully balanced with a medium long finish.
My poor description is wholly inadequate.....

Dolce, Napa Valley Late Harvest GV
35 Brix at harvest
10 Brix at bottling
Full rich and mature nose; Clean full and fruity mouth with an excellent
acidic balance. Bloody wonderful!

Kiedrich Grafenbegg, Rheingao Reisling Eiswein, Weingut, Robert Weil 2001
Well Ian, I have to agree with you.... nothing this good has ever come out
of a Canadian icewine winery... Clean fresh fruity nose and mouth; Exquisite
balance and a l-o-n-g wistful finish. Gives us Canadians something to aim
at.

Enough for now.
--
Regards
Chuck
So much wine; So little time!

To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address








--
Regards
Chuck
So much wine; So little time!

To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address

Chuck Reid wrote:

> Chateau D'Yquem 1990 Sur Saluces.
> What can I say?? Full, Sweet, permeated by that Pouriture Noble. Leftovers
> even better before breakfast the next day!!!

_Leftovers_!!?? I'm sorry, I simply do _not_ understand.

--
Regards,

- Roy

=*=*=
Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark
Twain
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

Salut/Hi Chuck Reid,

Thanks for your notes. It seems like you had some fun, which is the main
thing.

le/on Thu, 27 May 2004 14:16:56 -0400, tu disais/you said:-


>Tre Vigne in St. Helena Ca Lunch:
>
>As I would say, "They really blew MY skirt up!"
>
>Food was wonderful; service just short of fawning and wines wonderful over a
>3 hour lunch for 3.

Total bill?

>Chateau D'Yquem 1990 Sur Saluces.

(ahem - Lur Saluces)

>Kiedrich Grafenbegg, Rheingao Reisling Eiswein, Weingut, Robert Weil 2001
>Well Ian, I have to agree with you.... nothing this good has ever come out
>of a Canadian icewine winery...

Well, I didn't go as far as to say that, as I've only tasted a very few
Canadian ice wines. What I said was thatthose I've tasted fell far short of
the better German eisweins.

I must admit, that notwithstanding the very high prices of eisweins, I
_don't_ think they're the summum of German sweet wine production. As a
famous french critic once nearly said. "I love Botrytised wines". So I
prefer the beerenauslesen in general, though I'd not spit at a trock. In
fact, for the most sublime and perfect balance in germanic sweet wines, I
think I'd go for an Auslese Mosel from an exceptionally sweet year. ('76
springs to mind, but 2001 and 2003 wouldn't be far behind).

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck Reid wrote:
>
> > Chateau D'Yquem 1990 Sur Saluces.
> > What can I say?? Full, Sweet, permeated by that Pouriture Noble.
Leftovers
> > even better before breakfast the next day!!!
>
> _Leftovers_!!?? I'm sorry, I simply do _not_ understand.
>
Well Roy, when 3 bottles of it get opened, leftovers are a possibility!
--
Regards
Chuck
So much wine; So little time!

To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Chuck Reid,
>
> Thanks for your notes. It seems like you had some fun, which is the main
> thing.
>
> le/on Thu, 27 May 2004 14:16:56 -0400, tu disais/you said:-
>
>
> >Tre Vigne in St. Helena Ca Lunch:
> >
> >As I would say, "They really blew MY skirt up!"
> >
> >Food was wonderful; service just short of fawning and wines wonderful
over a
> >3 hour lunch for 3.
>
> Total bill?

A little over US$ 525.

>
> >Chateau D'Yquem 1990 Sur Saluces.
>
> (ahem - Lur Saluces)

With my handwriting and at a party yet it's lucky I got that close to
correct!!

>
> >Kiedrich Grafenbegg, Rheingao Reisling Eiswein, Weingut, Robert Weil 2001
> >Well Ian, I have to agree with you.... nothing this good has ever come
out
> >of a Canadian icewine winery...
>
> Well, I didn't go as far as to say that, as I've only tasted a very few
> Canadian ice wines. What I said was thatthose I've tasted fell far short
of
> the better German eisweins.
>
> I must admit, that notwithstanding the very high prices of eisweins, I
> _don't_ think they're the summum of German sweet wine production. As a
> famous french critic once nearly said. "I love Botrytised wines". So I
> prefer the beerenauslesen in general, though I'd not spit at a trock. In
> fact, for the most sublime and perfect balance in germanic sweet wines, I
> think I'd go for an Auslese Mosel from an exceptionally sweet year. ('76
> springs to mind, but 2001 and 2003 wouldn't be far behind).
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Ian Hoare" > skrev i melding
...
>
> >Kiedrich Grafenbegg, Rheingao Reisling Eiswein, Weingut, Robert Weil 2001

Gräfenberg, Rheingau - you were pretty close on that too, Chuck :-)

....
> I must admit, that notwithstanding the very high prices of eisweins, I
> _don't_ think they're the summum of German sweet wine production. As a
> famous french critic once nearly said. "I love Botrytised wines". So I
> prefer the beerenauslesen in general, though I'd not spit at a trock. In
> fact, for the most sublime and perfect balance in germanic sweet wines, I
> think I'd go for an Auslese Mosel from an exceptionally sweet year. ('76
> springs to mind, but 2001 and 2003 wouldn't be far behind).
>
Hi Ian,
A Beerenauslese doesn't, imho, imply botrytis..., at least not in modern
vinegrowing which seems to be able to reach high Oechsle readings without
the desiccating effects of botrytis.
I've not tried the '03 wines yet, did not get lyrical with the '01 Ausleses
(but Spätlese - wow!) - and the '76 is still unsurpassed in my
experience...(we agree on that, I think :-)
Anders

Salut/Hi Anders Tørneskog,

le/on Sat, 29 May 2004 09:42:22 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>> famous french critic once nearly said. "I love Botrytised wines". So I
>> prefer the beerenauslesen in general, though I'd not spit at a trock.

>A Beerenauslese doesn't, imho, imply botrytis..., at least not in modern
>vinegrowing which seems to be able to reach high Oechsle readings without
>the desiccating effects of botrytis.

Well, with respect Anders, haven't the grapes have got to be dried one way
or another? Either by the effect of sun and wind (passerillage) or by
botrytis. Surely you're not saying that "modern winegrowing" is going to
reach 125 Oechsle (Specific Gravity 1.125) without it. In fact if I may
quote Hans Ambrosi in his "Germany Wine Atlas and Dictionary", his
definition is

"Beerenauslese, selected over-ripe grapes with botrytis"

For Eswein, his definition is "grapes picked and pressed when frozen"
commenting "a rarity in all classes of prädikatswein"

I think the legal definition only talks about Oechsle (a great mistake, by
the way, because it reduces quality to sugar), without specifying how it's
reached. That said, I don't think I've ever had a beerenauslese which
_didn't_ have the characteristic tastes of botrytis. I've had some
experience here in SW France with passerillé wines - Jurançon, Gaillac and
Pacherenc de Vic Bilh and considerably more with botrytised ones, and
honestly, I do think I'd recognise a non-botrytis wine as such.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Ian Hoare" > skrev i melding
...
> >A Beerenauslese doesn't, imho, imply botrytis..., at least not in modern
> >vinegrowing which seems to be able to reach high Oechsle readings without
> >the desiccating effects of botrytis.
>
> Well, with respect Anders, haven't the grapes have got to be dried one way
> or another? Either by the effect of sun and wind (passerillage) or by
> botrytis. Surely you're not saying that "modern winegrowing" is going to
> reach 125 Oechsle (Specific Gravity 1.125) without it. In fact if I may
> quote Hans Ambrosi in his "Germany Wine Atlas and Dictionary", his
> definition is
>
> "Beerenauslese, selected over-ripe grapes with botrytis"
>
Hi Ian,
Ah, well - my copy of Ambrosi (3rd print 1976 :-) says it in German: ..aus
überreifen, meist edelfaulen Beeren gekeltert - which I'd translate into
"made from overripe grapes, for the most part noble rotted" (Hallo Michael
P - would you agree?)
My thought was simply that wine making has advanced since 1973 and, among
other things, a very careful selection ensures more ripe grapes. One Mosel
grower told me last year that the general rise in Oechsle ratings of the
last 10-15 years was mostly due to selection, not climate changes, in his
opinion.
Furthermore, I believe that the lower limit for a Mosel BA is 115 degrees.
The question is then: Can an unbotrytised wine reach 115-125 degrees?
Would that be sold as a BA? I have certainly had BA's with a strong
character of botrytis, but also some with no or very little botrytis. But,
of course - I could be 'botrytis insensitive' like I'm with TCA... :-)
Anders

Salut/Hi Anders Tørneskog,

Sorry for the delay - sometimes even _I_ have to work (to my great shame).

le/on Sat, 29 May 2004 15:17:24 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>"Ian Hoare" > skrev i melding
.. .
>> >A Beerenauslese doesn't, imho, imply botrytis...,
>>
>> Well, with respect Anders, haven't the grapes have got to be dried one way
>> or another?
>>
>> "Beerenauslese, selected over-ripe grapes with botrytis"

>Ah, well - my copy of Ambrosi (3rd print 1976 :-) says it in German: ..aus
>überreifen, meist edelfaulen Beeren gekeltert - which I'd translate into
>"made from overripe grapes, for the most part noble rotted" (Hallo Michael
>P - would you agree?)

Pretty near perfect - I speak enough German - though my understanding of
what's meant by that may be slightly different from yours. I'd understand
that to mean that (ALL the grapes in a particular picking/batch are
individually selected) which is implicit in the title, and that most of the
grapes/berries in _any one batch_ are nobly rotted. I don't take it to mean
that most _wines_ are made from nobly rotted grapes but some aren't.

>My thought was simply that wine making has advanced since 1973

Agreed, but I don't think that you can get a normally ripened grape with
anything LIKE that level of sugar.

>other things, a very careful selection ensures more ripe grapes.

As above.

> One Mosel grower told me last year that the general rise in Oechsle ratings of the
>last 10-15 years was mostly due to selection, not climate changes, in his
>opinion.

That's perfectly possible. Global warming is indisputable - depite George
Dubya's catastrophic (in world terms) refusal to honour the previous
administration's commitments to the Kyoto agreement and refusal to admit its
existance. What is absolutely impossible to predict at the moment, and chaos
theory implies that it will remain so, is the effect of global warming on
the climate in any one part of the globe. If, for example, the gulf stream
were diverted 500 miles to the North in the North Atlantic, the whole of the
UK except Scotland could start to experience the sort of climatic conditions
experienced in Norway, and vice versa, possibly.

>Furthermore, I believe that the lower limit for a Mosel BA is 115 degrees.

Possible, I've not checked up.

>The question is then: Can an unbotrytised wine reach 115-125 degrees?

Yes, but only if it's passerillé (air/sun dried), IMO.

>Would that be sold as a BA? I have certainly had BA's with a strong
>character of botrytis, but also some with no or very little botrytis.

Were they Rieslings? I've had Beerenauslesen from other grape varieties
where the characteristics of noble rot were quite masked under the
characteristics of the grape.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> Well, with respect Anders, haven't the grapes have got to be
> dried one way or another? Either by the effect of sun and wind
> (passerillage) or by botrytis.

Of course, Ian, but they taste completely different. What Anders
wanted to say is that buying a botlle of Beerenauslese does not
*automatically* imply a botrytised wines. There are vintages where
passeriallage by letting the grapes hang very long without being
botrytis affected (because of the dry weather) is not an uncommon
feature.

This is what the German wine law says in its § 20, sec. 5 num. 3:

<http://bundesrecht.juris.de/bundesrecht/weing_1994/__20.html>

| Bei der Beerenauslese dürfen nur edelfaule oder wenigstens
| überreife Beeren verwendet werden.

There is a slight nuance compared to the legal definition of a
trockenbeerenauslese (num. 4):

| Bei der Trockenbeerenauslese dürfen nur weitgehend
| eingeschrumpfte edelfaule Beeren verwendet werden; ist wegen
| besonderer Sorteneigenschaft oder besonderer Witterung
| ausnahmsweise keine Edelfäule eingetreten, genügt auch Überreife
| der eingeschrumpften Beeren.

So the definition of a TBA defines the use of shrivelled non-botrytis
grapes as the exception, while no such passus exists in the BA
definition.

M.

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 30 May 2004 16:39:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
>> Well, with respect Anders, haven't the grapes have got to be
>> dried one way or another? Either by the effect of sun and wind
>> (passerillage) or by botrytis.
>
>Of course, Ian, but they taste completely different.

Which indeed I said :-

||cteristic tastes of botrytis. I've had some
||experience here in SW France with passerillé wines - Jurançon, Gaillac and
||Pacherenc de Vic Bilh and considerably more with botrytised ones, and
||honestly, I do think I'd recognise a non-botrytis wine as such.


>There are vintages where passeriallage by letting the grapes hang very long without being
>botrytis affected (because of the dry weather) is not an uncommon
>feature.

If you say, so Michael, though as I said, I don't think I've had one, hence
my comment that I would prefer a Beerenauslese over an eiswein, because (in
my experience) there is a greater botrytised character.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website