Having steak and kidney pie tonight, any suggestions? I'm thinking assertive
red, but looks like Hugh Johnson says Burgundy or mature Bdx.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 10 Mar 2004 16:43:35 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>Having steak and kidney pie tonight, any suggestions? I'm thinking assertive
>red, but looks like Hugh Johnson says Burgundy or mature Bdx.
>Dale

I think Hugh is right (as usual) provided you leave the kidneys out.

Can't think of a single wine that would enhance (or be enhanced) by
the flavor of kidneys. Maybe try whatever you might drink with a big
plate of liver and onions?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 10 Mar 2004 16:43:35 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Having steak and kidney pie tonight, any suggestions? I'm thinking assertive
>red, but looks like Hugh Johnson says Burgundy or mature Bdx.

I agree with you, Dale. I often serve a Rioja with it. I don't agree at all
re Burg or old claret. (Rare I disagree strongly with HJ). Mind you, a lot
depends on how you prepare your cake & sidney. Just looked at his 2004
pocket book. Says Mature Bx (boo hiss) Rioja or Douro (clap clap) A Dao
would also go well.

Sent in haste in time for you to decant your wine an hour before dinner!

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Dale Williams" wrote in message.....

> Having steak and kidney pie tonight, any suggestions?

Hell Dale, why don't you give us a little prior notice - it is already
tomorrow downunder!!!

I prefer to make my pies with a little more pepper than average - thus I
would have a peppery Aussie Shiraz (or even a spicy Zin - which I confess to
knowing 2/5ths of bugger all about!!!)

But, since I am far too late (err, or is that early!) what did you decide
upon?

--

st.helier

In article >, "st.helier"
> writes:

>Hell Dale, why don't you give us a little prior notice - it is already
>tomorrow downunder!!!
>
>I prefer to make my pies with a little more pepper than average - thus I
>would have a peppery Aussie Shiraz (or even a spicy Zin - which I confess to
>knowing 2/5ths of bugger all about!!!)
>
>But, since I am far too late (err, or is that early!) what did you decide
>upon?


Well, what basically happened was that I realized yesterday morning (a) Betsy
was working an afternoon rehearsal and staying in city for performance, (b)
David was eating with friends, (c) I had a speech and wouldn't be home till
fairly late, and (d) there were 2 small steak & kidney pies in fridge (a gift
from Sweeney's Mrs. Lovett!!!!). If I had been cooking then I would have given
more notice.

With my speech, I missed Ian's reply till too late (the vast majority of my
wines are not stored at home). So I had the following info:
Ed doesn't like Kidneys
Oz Clarke says spicy red like Syrah, or low tannin red like Cal Merlot
Hugh J (2002 pocket) says goes well with many reds, including mature Bdx, Burg,
Squinzano, and Bairrara.
As my extremely limited experience of Bairrara and Squinzano (neither of which
I cellar) are of fairly rich spicy tannic wines, I was confused.

I tried an already open Loire Côt, and an all-syrah CdR. The CdR went better,
full report later. This particular pie was not especially spicy, though it was
flavorful, given that it might have done well indeed with an everyday Bdx (not
a dish I would serve with a fine Bdx, I'm thinking more a Cotes de Castillon or
basic Medoc with a little bottle age)

I have to confess a little irritation when I find a wine suggestion for
"Squinzano or Bairrara". Maybe they are more common in UK than here, but in US
these are fairly obscure wines. It's advice like that that makes people feel
that wine is this unapproachable esoteric subject.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 11 Mar 2004 15:18:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>With my speech, I missed Ian's reply till too late (the vast majority of my
>wines are not stored at home). So I had the following info:

Never mind!

>Ed doesn't like Kidneys
>Oz Clarke says spicy red like Syrah, or low tannin red like Cal Merlot

I can go along with the first, never had the second.

>Hugh J (2002 pocket) says goes well with many reds, including mature Bdx, Burg,
>Squinzano, and Bairrara.
>As my extremely limited experience of Bairrara and Squinzano (neither of which
>I cellar) are of fairly rich spicy tannic wines, I was confused.

I've no knowledge of either!! Squinzano indeed. Sounds like a squiffy
version of an Italian Aperitive. Could you mean Bairrada? I've never had one
of those either, but at least I've heard of it! I thought it was supposed to
be tannic!

>I have to confess a little irritation when I find a wine suggestion for
>"Squinzano or Bairrara". Maybe they are more common in UK than here,

Humph. I can't find Squinzano in HJ 2004.

> but in US these are fairly obscure wines. It's advice like that that makes people feel
>that wine is this unapproachable esoteric subject.

Agreed. Just once in a while he does enjoy tossing in one or two oddball
wines. Parhaps we should write to him and ask him where he would recommend
we should find this amazing match.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare wrote:

> >Hugh J (2002 pocket) says goes well with many reds, including mature Bdx, Burg,
> >Squinzano, and Bairrara.
> >As my extremely limited experience of Bairrara and Squinzano (neither of which
> >I cellar) are of fairly rich spicy tannic wines, I was confused.
>
> I've no knowledge of either!! Squinzano indeed. Sounds like a squiffy
> version of an Italian Aperitive. Could you mean Bairrada? I've never had one
> of those either, but at least I've heard of it! I thought it was supposed to
> be tannic!
>
> >I have to confess a little irritation when I find a wine suggestion for
> >"Squinzano or Bairrara". Maybe they are more common in UK than here,
>
> Humph. I can't find Squinzano in HJ 2004.

Nonetheless, it does exist. Our good friend Mr. Google comes to the rescue:

http://www.milioni.com/vini/ingd1/634.htm

It's Apulian, tyically Negro Amaro with Malvasia Nera and/or Sangiovese. Never seen one
myself, but the redoubtable HJ no doubt has consumed enough to make this call...

Mark Lipton

On 11 Mar 2004 15:18:14 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>Well, what basically happened was that I realized yesterday morning (a) Betsy
>was working an afternoon rehearsal and staying in city for performance, (b)
>David was eating with friends, (c) I had a speech and wouldn't be home till
>fairly late, and (d) there were 2 small steak & kidney pies in fridge (a gift
>from Sweeney's Mrs. Lovett!!!!). If I had been cooking then I would have given
>more notice.
>
>With my speech, I missed Ian's reply till too late (the vast majority of my
>wines are not stored at home). So I had the following info:
>Ed doesn't like Kidneys
>
>I tried an already open Loire Côt, and an all-syrah CdR. The CdR went better,
>full report later. This particular pie was not especially spicy, though it was
>flavorful, given that it might have done well indeed with an everyday Bdx (not
>a dish I would serve with a fine Bdx, I'm thinking more a Cotes de Castillon or
>basic Medoc with a little bottle age)

I've got no experience with squinzano (first I've ever heard) and lest
I be labeled as either frivolous for my comment regarding kidneys or
provincial for my reluctance to deal with good British pub fare, let
me add further:

In my travels around the world I've found it a good rule of thumb that
if the locals like something, regardless of how repugnant it might
seem to the American sensibilities (not an oxymoron), it is probably
both edible and good. So, for those who have access to a steak and
kidney pie done by someone with some knowledge of the dish, I must
offer "bon appetit."

Then let me dump a recent experience with three CdR offerings. I've
been dealing recently with Sam's Wine & Spirits out of Chicago--I
found them online when searching for some Italian wines. They have
good prices, good service and a wide selection.
(http://www.samswine.com/homepage.asp).

They publish an email newsletter and offer some interesting
opportunities--for we provincials in fly-over country who can't drop
into Zachy's on the way home from work for a tasting, it's a good
deal.

They apparently have teamed with a negociant in Beaune to offer some
boutique CdRs under the label "Les Caves de la Colombe"--offerings
range from red/white burgs to beaujolais to rhones. I recently ordered
a couple of cases of 2001 Vacqueyras, Gigondas and Lirac. I've tasted
the Vacqueyras and the Lirac already and they are exceptional with a
full load of dark fruit, black/white pepper and a bit of leather and
smoke. A bit musty and earthy, but pleasantly so. Well integrated,
even though young and with a long smooth finish. They could certainly
stand up to a hearty peasant/pub meal of innards and cow with lardy
pastie. Or whatever.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

(By the way I always found kidneys, especially in Steak and Kidney Pie, much
milder than the liver to which they were compared here, elsewhere in the
thread.)

In the late 1970s my friends and I frequented a restaurant in Oakland,
California called Norman's, managed by John Fox (who later left and,
circa1982, with a couple of partners, opened a wine shop caled Premier Cru).
The restaurant offered some classic Euro specialties right out of the old
books (including Mrs Beeton and Molokhovets by the way) -- including a
respectable S&K pie. I used to order Guigal Rhônes with it, for whatever
that's worth. Might do so again.

"Ed Rasimus" in ...
>
> In my travels around the world I've found it a good rule of thumb that
> if the locals like something, regardless of how repugnant it might
> seem to the American sensibilities (not an oxymoron), it is probably
> both edible and good. So, for those who have access to a steak and
> kidney pie done by someone with some knowledge of the dish, I must
> offer "bon appetit."

I am too modest to speak for all of the Americas, I will speak merely for
the US (a tiny minority of the plurality of countries within that continent
system); but even in my travels in such exotic locales as Oakland I gathered
the S&K pie was not repugnant (they would have deleted it from the menu if
it were). In fact a quick glance at older US cookbooks suggests to me that
the dish was long familiar in the US. (Morrison Wood's perennial US classic
_With a Jug of Wine,_ in print from at least 1949 to 1980 -- see my longer
description on rec.food.drink, 13 Mar 92 -- Wood, like Britain's Yoxall, was
a veteran of the Great War by the way -- has an enthusiastic recipe and
suggests, for the record, Bass Ale or Guiness Stout.) For that matter,
gastronomic sensibilities in the US seem to have been richer and more
numerous until they got lost sometime in the middle 20th century, whence
they are being gradually and loudly rediscovered lately. (The Hesses in
_The Taste of America_ documented in some depth the details of the loss.)

> Then let me dump a recent experience with three CdR offerings.

La ronde! Reminds me of the Guigals I used to enjoy with steak-and-kidney
pie. It must be a natural match! Cheers -- M.

Replying to several posts:

Ed, I didn't think you were intolerant, it just sounded like you didn't care
much for kidney. I agree that's it's worth exploring most cuisines. I
personally am quite partial to organ meats.

Ian, indeed I mistyped, meant Bairrada . Don't see a whole lot here, the ones I
do see are Alianca & Joao. I think I've had one Squinzano, at a tasting.

To me it would be one thing if HJ named a fairly obscure wine because it was a
traditional match - Squinzano with some Southern Italian dish. But steak &
kidney pie? My problem is some newbie reading that entry and thinking "well, I
don't have/can't afford mature Bordeaux, so I'll go to the store and pick up a
Squinzano or Bairrada"- in NY he might hit 3 stores before he found a Bairrada
(and maybe 20 to find a Squinzano). That's the kind of thing that makes wine
intimidating for some.

Max, the Rhône I had was a decent match, might have been even better if this
pie was a little spicier. This was tasty, but a bit bland(it was made by an
English shop near Battery Park in NYC called A Salt and Battery).

best,
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>
>They apparently have teamed with a negociant in Beaune to offer some
>boutique CdRs under the label "Les Caves de la Colombe"--offerings
>range from red/white burgs to beaujolais to rhones. I recently ordered
>a couple of cases of 2001 Vacqueyras, Gigondas and Lirac. I've tasted
>the Vacqueyras and the Lirac already and they are exceptional with a
>full load of dark fruit, black/white pepper and a bit of leather and
>smoke. A bit musty and earthy, but pleasantly so. Well integrated,
>even though young and with a long smooth finish.

This is the second rec I've heard for the Rhônes (I've heard less enthusiastic
things re their Beaujolais and Burg offerings). I think it's the Rasteau in
particular I heard plugged as a QPR winner. I think with your recs I might go
ahead and get a couple next time I order from WineLibrary. I like Sam's, but
every time I see notice re one of their sales, everything I want to gone by
time I order.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> In my travels around the world I've found it a good rule of thumb that
> if the locals like something, regardless of how repugnant it might
> seem to the American sensibilities (not an oxymoron), it is probably
> both edible and good.

OK Ed, I'll bite: What wine would be best served with haggis? ;^D

I actually have a friend who _likes_ the stuff! She prepares it from all
the usual horrific ingredients, plus a liberal dose of Scotch whiskey. (If
I had to guess, I'd say roughly half goes into the haggis and half into the
cook. ;^))

Tom S

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:14:35 -0800, "Tom S"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
.. .
>> In my travels around the world I've found it a good rule of thumb that
>> if the locals like something, regardless of how repugnant it might
>> seem to the American sensibilities (not an oxymoron), it is probably
>> both edible and good.
>
>OK Ed, I'll bite: What wine would be best served with haggis? ;^D

There are always exceptions to rules of thumb, and regardless of how
well traveled an individual might claim to be, there are always
corners of the world not yet experienced. I've never been to Scotland
(but will go as soon as the lottery ticket gets paid off,) and I've
not had the opportunity to visit Ireland. So, I've not tested my rule
of thumb with regard to haggis.
>
>I actually have a friend who _likes_ the stuff! She prepares it from all
>the usual horrific ingredients, plus a liberal dose of Scotch whiskey. (If
>I had to guess, I'd say roughly half goes into the haggis and half into the
>cook. ;^))

Now, if we apply another rule of thumb here, we find that the alcohol
that is used to spice the dish and the cook usually serve well to wash
down the meal itself. If there's a "wee dram" or three in the haggis,
there might well be a bit of whisky with the meal as well.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:14:35 -0800, "Tom S"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
.. .
>> In my travels around the world I've found it a good rule of thumb that
>> if the locals like something, regardless of how repugnant it might
>> seem to the American sensibilities (not an oxymoron), it is probably
>> both edible and good.
>
>OK Ed, I'll bite: What wine would be best served with haggis? ;^D
>
If you're lookimg for wine rsther than whisky, I'd suggest a light
Pinot Noir, otherwise a red that can stand up to ground black pepper,
which is what lesser haggai tend to taste of.

James

James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

"James Dempster" > wrote in
message ...
> If you're lookimg for wine rsther than whisky, I'd suggest a light
> Pinot Noir, otherwise a red that can stand up to ground black pepper,
> which is what lesser haggai tend to taste of.

So, is "haggai" the plural of haggis? What declension is _that_? Is that
even Latin?

Tom S

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:14:35 -0800, "Tom S" > said:

]
] "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
] ...
] > In my travels around the world I've found it a good rule of thumb that
] > if the locals like something, regardless of how repugnant it might
] > seem to the American sensibilities (not an oxymoron), it is probably
] > both edible and good.
]
] OK Ed, I'll bite: What wine would be best served with haggis? ;^D
]

Tom, a powerful Bandol wouldn't be a bad choice.

I _like_ haggis!

-E


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

In article >,
says...

> In my travels around the world I've found it a good rule of thumb that
> if the locals like something, regardless of how repugnant it might
> seem to the American sensibilities (not an oxymoron), it is probably
> both edible and good.

My big sticking point was the moment in France that the waiter brought
out a half-dozen snails on a platter.

Girding my loins, I addressed the first snail, and determinedly chewed
my way through it, clenching my mind against the awfulness I expected.
I think I got halfway through the first one before it occurred to me
that this wasn't half bad! By the third I was an escargot convert.

I won't say I don't think about what food is any more - I still do. For
example, the local Vietnamese grocery's frozen section has a kind of
six-inch long beetle that makes me shudder. But I don't reject a dish
out of hand because it doesn't conform to the culinary prejudices I was
raised with. Speaking as a person who as a child wouldn't eat anything
but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches because all other food was
"yucky", I think I'm doing okay. ;-)

Katherine

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message >...
> Having steak and kidney pie tonight, any suggestions? I'm thinking assertive
> red, but looks like Hugh Johnson says Burgundy or mature Bdx.

How about a bottle of the Austrian red varietal Blaufrankisch? There
are two I would suggest: Feiler-Artinger Umriss and Wenzel
Bandkraften.

In article >,
(winemonger) writes:

>How about a bottle of the Austrian red varietal Blaufrankisch? There
>are two I would suggest: Feiler-Artinger Umriss and Wenzel
>Bandkraften.

I have to say that I've yet to have a Blaufrankisch (there's a diacritical in
there somewhere, but I can't remember) that excited me. I think that has more
to do with what's exported to US than overall quality issues. One day I hope to
get to Vienna, maybe Herr Pronay will introduce me to what Blaufrankisch can
really do.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

> I have to say that I've yet to have a Blaufrankisch (there's a diacritical in
> there somewhere, but I can't remember) that excited me. I think that has more
> to do with what's exported to US than overall quality issues.

Yes, I think that what's getting exported has a lot to do with it.
But Austrian red wines have in general been improving in quality by
leaps and bounds in the past few years, and with any luck that'll
start showing up on our North American shelves! I also have found
that personally, as my palate "comes around" to a varietal, I begin to
like it more and more. Happened with Gruner Veltliner. Is happening
with Blaufrankisch.

"winemonger" > wrote in message
om...
> Yes, I think that what's getting exported has a lot to do with it.
> But Austrian red wines have in general been improving in quality by
> leaps and bounds in the past few years, and with any luck that'll
> start showing up on our North American shelves! I also have found
> that personally, as my palate "comes around" to a varietal, I begin to
> like it more and more. Happened with Gruner Veltliner. Is happening
> with Blaufrankisch.

Glad to read your opinion.
I was sad and angry when reading in Wine Advocate last year that Austrian
whites are excellent, but the reds are uninspiring and over-extracted, so
they were not assessed. I guess the guy PA Rovani was just too lazy to taste
them, so he stuck to this prejudice. IMO many Blaufrankisch (BF) and BF
cuvees from 1999 and 2000 are mind-boggling... just to use a Parker's
favorite.

Martin

And here's something interesting (well, it was to me!)

Last week I tried an Eiswein made from Blaufrankisch (Heiss, 1999)
The very best attributes of the varietal came through: the exotic
aromas, the berries and spice, and then the acidity created great
balance with the sweetness. Totally unexpected, and totally lovely.

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote:

> One day I hope to get to Vienna, maybe Herr Pronay will
> introduce me to what Blaufrankisch can really do.

No problem - Engelbert Prieler's Goldberg 2000 (among others) is
waiting.

M.