Steve Slatcher > wrote:

>>> But here's another (non-rhetorical) question.... what is the
>>> mechanism for the reduction of the volume of wine (increased
>>> ullage) over the years?

>>Seepage. But I guess you knew that ... ;-)

> Honestly, no. Not with certainlty.
>
> I can't be sure, but I think I have noticed low levels of red
> wine, without obvious signs of seepage around the top of the
> cork. Wondered if it was related to some chemical process.

Whether chemical or physical I don't know, but what happens here
is evaporation.

> But if it is wine getting out, why cannot air get in?

Air gets in.

> Besides, if the pressure is mainained in the gap, something
> would need to fill it. I believe this is an arguiment that has
> been used for porosity in cork contributing to the aging
> process.

True.

> Of course the pressure in the gap might simply reduce, or a gas
> may be generated from within the wine? Has the research been
> done?

No gas from the wine has ever been mentioned (except for ullaged
bottles of sparkling wines, of course).

> (I am not trying to argue from any particular standpoint here,
> just trying to establish some facts.)

No problem.

M.

Bromo > wrote:

>> So what would be the theory of wine ageing under crown or screw
>> cap? (Don't tell me it doesn't age - in fact wine ages even
>> more gracefully than under cork.)

> _Wine and Spirits_ magazine did a non-scientific analysis of
> screw-cap vs. non-screw cap wines. I think their conclusion was
> that wines age differently, and probably need to have sulfite
> levels and other techniques examined.

Nothing really new.

As to ageing, I am getting tired to quote Peter Gago (Penfold's
chief winemaker) once more (how often did I cite him already?)
who, after 9 and 10 years of test with premium reds, concluded:
"Reds under screw caps seem to have a slightly different ageing
pattern: like bottles from a rather cool cellar compared to a
normal one."

And it's a well-known fact that sulfite levels (and a few other
factors) have to be inspected closely. Screw caps are less
permissive than corks with this regard.

M.

Michael, my main concern with the new non cork closures is this issue with
air. If air plays a roll in the aging of wine with cork products, isn't
this a limitation of the new stelvins and other non cork closures?

Will this affect aging. I agree that TCA is an issue but will the solution
be worse than the problem?


"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Slatcher > wrote:
>
> >>> But here's another (non-rhetorical) question.... what is the
> >>> mechanism for the reduction of the volume of wine (increased
> >>> ullage) over the years?
>
> >>Seepage. But I guess you knew that ... ;-)
>
> > Honestly, no. Not with certainlty.
> >
> > I can't be sure, but I think I have noticed low levels of red
> > wine, without obvious signs of seepage around the top of the
> > cork. Wondered if it was related to some chemical process.
>
> Whether chemical or physical I don't know, but what happens here
> is evaporation.
>
> > But if it is wine getting out, why cannot air get in?
>
> Air gets in.
>
> > Besides, if the pressure is mainained in the gap, something
> > would need to fill it. I believe this is an arguiment that has
> > been used for porosity in cork contributing to the aging
> > process.
>
> True.
>
> > Of course the pressure in the gap might simply reduce, or a gas
> > may be generated from within the wine? Has the research been
> > done?
>
> No gas from the wine has ever been mentioned (except for ullaged
> bottles of sparkling wines, of course).
>
> > (I am not trying to argue from any particular standpoint here,
> > just trying to establish some facts.)
>
> No problem.
>
> M.

"dick" > wrote:

> Michael, my main concern with the new non cork closures is this
> issue with air. If air plays a roll in the aging of wine with
> cork products, isn't this a limitation of the new stelvins and
> other non cork closures?

No. The very best corks don't let ullage happen and are as tight
as alternative closures.

> Will this affect aging. I agree that TCA is an issue but will
> the solution be worse than the problem?

Definitely not! AU/NZ have 30 years plus of experience with screw
caps, champagne even more with crow cap closures. Every, I repeat:
every finding points into the right direction. Once again I point
you to this chapter of Tyson Stelzer's book. Please read it.

<http://www.cellaringwine.com/Chapter%206.pdf>

M.

thanks. Also, my son was accepted at UNC-Chapel Hill Business School and in
September applies for the exchange aspect to study at your business school
in Vienna. Therefore next Spring I might get to meet you when I visit him
:-)


"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "dick" > wrote:
>
> > Michael, my main concern with the new non cork closures is this
> > issue with air. If air plays a roll in the aging of wine with
> > cork products, isn't this a limitation of the new stelvins and
> > other non cork closures?
>
> No. The very best corks don't let ullage happen and are as tight
> as alternative closures.
>
> > Will this affect aging. I agree that TCA is an issue but will
> > the solution be worse than the problem?
>
> Definitely not! AU/NZ have 30 years plus of experience with screw
> caps, champagne even more with crow cap closures. Every, I repeat:
> every finding points into the right direction. Once again I point
> you to this chapter of Tyson Stelzer's book. Please read it.
>
> <http://www.cellaringwine.com/Chapter%206.pdf>
>
> M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
> > The sulfites added at bottling time will rapidly consume any
> > oxygen trapped within the bottle, so any oxidative processes
> > taking place in the year(s) subsequent to bottling strongly
> > argue for the influx of new oxygen -- through or around the
> > cork, as the case may be.
>
> So what would be the theory of wine ageing under crown or screw
> cap? (Don't tell me it doesn't age - in fact wine ages even more
> gracefully than under cork.)
>

Michael,
We seem to be running circles here. My first post in this thread
was to the effect that both reductive (anaerobic) and oxidative
(aerobic) processes contribute to the aging of wine. I have no doubt
that many of these processes are unaffected by the closure and operate
just fine under Stelvin -- but I am *not* convinced that the aging under
Stelvin will reproduce the same flavors as aging under cork. Please
note that I am not advocating for the retention of cork here. In fact,
it strikes me as similar to the argument put forth about analog vs.
digital music sources: they do sound different, and people do differ on
which they prefer (the music analogy isn't perfect, since there is a
quantifiable measure of quality -- THD -- that is totally lacking in
wine appreciation). But, much like music sources, I have no doubt that
as winemakers become more familiar with the aging of wine under
screwcaps, they will be able to adjust for that and hopefully retain
their ability to make ageworthy wines.

Mark Lipton

Michael Pronay wrote:

> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
> > It's been noted that sealed glass ampules show the (very)
> > gradual diffusion of oxygen into them over the span of years.
>
> If that is true - and I have not the slightest reason to doubt -,
> then abolish this peace of bark in the neck as fast as possible,
> please!

Well, the glass of a wine bottle is significantly thicker than the
ampules to which I refer, so that already slow process will become
glacial. I have few doubts, however, that a hermetically sealed bottle
of wine will still show oxidation after a millenium or two of storage!
;-)

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton > wrote:

>> > It's been noted that sealed glass ampules show the (very)
>> > gradual diffusion of oxygen into them over the span of years.

>> If that is true - and I have not the slightest reason to doubt
>> -, then abolish this peace of bark in the neck as fast as
>> possible, please!

> Well, the glass of a wine bottle is significantly thicker than
> the ampules to which I refer, so that already slow process will
> become glacial. I have few doubts, however, that a
> hermetically sealed bottle of wine will still show oxidation
> after a millenium or two of storage! ;-)

In fact there are tests running at Ausone. I have seen such a bottle,
but the sealed glas closure is much thinner, of course.

M.

(Mark Willstatter) wrote:

> I don't see anything in what Mark L. said that rejects the idea
> that reduction has a role - even a primary role - in wine bottle
> ageing. He only said that any *oxidative* processes taking place
> must get oxygen from somewhere. It's tough to argue with that!

Good bottles from Shipwrecks. As tough to argue with that!

M.

"dick" in hlink.net...
> thanks. Also, my son was accepted at UNC-Chapel Hill Business School and
in
> September applies for the exchange aspect to study at your business school
> in Vienna.

Forgive me if I intrude into what may be a private conversation. But I did
wish to speak up for UNC-CH in multiple ways.

First, gastronomically, the "triangle" region of North Carolina is one of
the gems of North America, I have enjoyed my many visits there. From the
Colonial Inn in Hillsborough to the little all-purpose Fowler's delicatessan
and wine shop in Durham (I hope it still thrives!) to the little independent
restaurants in CH. At Fowler's, multiple generations offered equipment and
ingredients and insightful wines all crammed into one little shop. One time
I saw a senior Mr. Fowler (looking like a retired baseball pro for some
reason, that was my offhand impression) at a cheese counter with a large
block of cream cheese, offering samples. I quipped from a scene late in
Mann's novel _Felix Krull_ involving a conversation across a block of cream
cheese. Without hesitation, Mr. Fowler retorted from _Buddenbrooks._

Second, Internet-historically. UNC-CH was one of the early prominent sites
on the Internet, and its near-dominance in early neswgroup postings is not
unrelated to the following. Newsgroups, such as the one you are now
reading, were a creation of Steve Bellovin, a student at UNC-CH, in 1979.

In case it might be of interest. -- MH

"Mark Lipton" in ...
>
> Please
> note that I am not advocating for the retention of cork here. In fact,
> it strikes me as similar to the argument put forth about analog vs.
> digital music sources: they do sound different, and people do differ on
> which they prefer (the music analogy isn't perfect, since there is a
> quantifiable measure of quality -- THD -- that is totally lacking in
> wine appreciation).

This is, I assume, an innocent analogy rather than any subtle gambit to
induce engaging exchanges. (I don't know how much past history of postings
on other newsgroups, of past decades, you have read, Mark, and whether you
knew about some of the people who got their fill of the Usenet over such
topics as mentioned in passing above.) That's what I'm assuming, anyway.

But while I'm busy assuming, let me salute also one of the Usenet's chief
candidates for sainthood (application to the Vatican for Stage-1 now
pending). That is Jim Johnston (originally rabbit!jj), one of the very
first contributors on net.wines, one of the first contributors on many of
the newsgroups. He still contributes occasionally despite everything.
(Congregation for the Whatsis, please note.) His own work is in
psychoacoustics and information coding for audio, and he is also blessed or
cursed with extraordinarily subtle hearing -- thus sitting precisely on the
razor's edge of technology and perception. This made him a target for every
conceivable complexion of armchair expertise (which the Usenet draws in as a
dry cellar draws moisture). His combination of skills put him at odds with
practically everybody interested in consumer audio, especially in those
cases when he was the only person in sight with any idea of what he was
talking about. For more than 20 years, with more or less patience (saints
are, after all, human), Jim argued the ancient and unpopular position that
useful discussion of a subject demands knowledge of the subject. He was
lucky not to be killed (though the latter might admittedly -- no offense,
Jim -- have accelerated the sainthood process, notoriously gradual. :-)

"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "dick" > wrote:
>
> > Slam Dunk!
>
> Sorry, my bad command of English doesn't give me any clue as to
> what this means. Could you help me?
>

Ian hoare separately, to me:

> So no matter
> who says what, there's likely to be someone who argues!
> Heck, I've even had people doubting ME!

> You'll be amazed at what can be controversial!

Possibly what I was going to say to M Hoare may also apply to the query of
Hr Prónay: an idiom originally from French I think, used in fencing, or to
acknowledge an effective point in argument:

Touché!

On 2/29/04 12:18 PM, in article , "Mark Lipton"
> wrote:

>
>
> Michael Pronay wrote:
>
>> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>>
>>> The sulfites added at bottling time will rapidly consume any
>>> oxygen trapped within the bottle, so any oxidative processes
>>> taking place in the year(s) subsequent to bottling strongly
>>> argue for the influx of new oxygen -- through or around the
>>> cork, as the case may be.
>>
>> So what would be the theory of wine ageing under crown or screw
>> cap? (Don't tell me it doesn't age - in fact wine ages even more
>> gracefully than under cork.)
>>
>
> Michael,
> We seem to be running circles here. My first post in this thread
> was to the effect that both reductive (anaerobic) and oxidative
> (aerobic) processes contribute to the aging of wine. I have no doubt
> that many of these processes are unaffected by the closure and operate
> just fine under Stelvin -- but I am *not* convinced that the aging under
> Stelvin will reproduce the same flavors as aging under cork. Please
> note that I am not advocating for the retention of cork here. In fact,
> it strikes me as similar to the argument put forth about analog vs.
> digital music sources: they do sound different, and people do differ on
> which they prefer (the music analogy isn't perfect, since there is a
> quantifiable measure of quality -- THD -- that is totally lacking in
> wine appreciation). But, much like music sources, I have no doubt that
> as winemakers become more familiar with the aging of wine under
> screwcaps, they will be able to adjust for that and hopefully retain
> their ability to make ageworthy wines.

I think it won't even be as difficult as all that - but I agree about the
analog vs. digital thing.

As an audiophile, I noticed that he type of setup one must have to sound
"good" with an analog source such as an LP, is a bit different than what
would be required for a well mastered CD. Both can sound excellent, and to
most people's ears, probably both would sound great, but to the aficionado,
one is preferred to the other. (I am one of those rare geeks that like
digital better than analog *if* the mastering is decent - CD's tend to be
rather over compressed lately)

We just need to understand how to age and work with the fine wine under
screwcap - the nice part is that it would offer a promise of better quality
control. As a otherwise nice bottle of Burgundy we opened and had this
weekend - it has cork taint. Made me a bit upset - since I paid almost
USD20 for the bottle ! I can't wait for good screwcaps!!

On 2/29/04 12:20 PM, in article , "Mark Lipton"
> wrote:

>
>
> Michael Pronay wrote:
>
>> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>>
>>> It's been noted that sealed glass ampules show the (very)
>>> gradual diffusion of oxygen into them over the span of years.
>>
>> If that is true - and I have not the slightest reason to doubt -,
>> then abolish this peace of bark in the neck as fast as possible,
>> please!
>
> Well, the glass of a wine bottle is significantly thicker than the
> ampules to which I refer, so that already slow process will become
> glacial. I have few doubts, however, that a hermetically sealed bottle
> of wine will still show oxidation after a millenium or two of storage!
> ;-)

This way you can pass on your wine collection to your distant descendants -
and the wine can be enjoyed by the generations!

I would love a situation where I didn't have to worry about the wine's age
in my lifetime.

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 29 Feb 2004 11:40:34 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>> To answer your (presumably rhetorical) question: it's a
>> reductive process, isn't it?
>
>Yes, thank you.
>
>> But here's another (non-rhetorical) question.... what is the
>> mechanism for the reduction of the volume of wine (increased
>> ullage) over the years?
>
>Seepage. But I guess you knew that ... ;-)

And what seeps in to replace the wine that seeps out?


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Mark Lipton wrote:
>
> > If I can find a source of it on the web, I will post it.
>
> Here's something (not what I remember, though):
>
http://waterhouse.ucdavis.edu/ven219...g_of_wines.htm
>
> At issue, Michael, is the formation of sediment. That part of sediment
> that is not tartrate crystals has been shown to be polymerized phenolics.
> The problem here is that the polymerization of phenolics is an oxidative
> process. I can do it in the lab, and I guarantee you that it doesn't
work
> without some sort of oxidant.

Incorrect. There are 2 types of polymerization-- oxidative and
non-oxidative. It is the non-oxidative which is normally associated with
the polymerization of tannins in quality table wines.

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines

>Since we know that sediment forms even
> before that cork is removed, we need to find the source of oxidation and
> oxygen is the obvious (perhaps even correct!) culprit. I do realize that
> Peynaud has argued strongly against this view, but I haven't seen the data
> that led him to this conclusion.
>
> Mark Lipton
>

Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines wrote:

>
>
> Incorrect. There are 2 types of polymerization-- oxidative and
> non-oxidative. It is the non-oxidative which is normally associated with
> the polymerization of tannins in quality table wines.

Craig,
Can you steer me to any sort of reference for this? I truly cannot imagine
what chemical process is occuring that would polymerize phenols without oxidation
taking place.

Mark Lipton

yup, similar to touché.

I think you points made...I have been on sidelines learning. Science was
not my strong suit.

"Max Hauser" > wrote in message
...
> "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "dick" > wrote:
> >
> > > Slam Dunk!
> >
> > Sorry, my bad command of English doesn't give me any clue as to
> > what this means. Could you help me?
> >
>
> Ian hoare separately, to me:
>
> > So no matter
> > who says what, there's likely to be someone who argues!
> > Heck, I've even had people doubting ME!
>
> > You'll be amazed at what can be controversial!
>
> Possibly what I was going to say to M Hoare may also apply to the query of
> Hr Prónay: an idiom originally from French I think, used in fencing, or
to
> acknowledge an effective point in argument:
>
> Touché!
>
>

On 29 Feb 2004 21:05:24 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>"dick" > wrote:
>
>> Slam Dunk!
>
>Sorry, my bad command of English doesn't give me any clue as to
>what this means. Could you help me?
>
It comes from basketball. Literally it is a play where the player with
the ball leaps so high that he (I've never seen this done by a "she")
actually is able to push the ball downward through the net and score
two points.

Figuratively it has come to mean (in the US anyway) something that has
been accomplished completely, unquestionably, and with some sense of
finality. In the posting in question, the fact that bottles of wine
that are still good can be found in old shipwrecks is considered
(rightly or wrongly) to be proof positive of the correctness of the
poster's argument.

Hope this helps.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> And what seeps in to replace the wine that seeps out?

Air, of course. But I guess we had that already.

M.

Vino > wrote:

["Slam dunk"]

> Hope this helps.

Yes, thanks to you all!

M.

On 1 Mar 2004 08:11:53 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
>> And what seeps in to replace the wine that seeps out?
>
>Air, of course. But I guess we had that already.

The question of cork letting oxygen in was done to death a while back
in this NG. Most (or at least the most vocal) people were of the view
that corks were not porous to oxygen. This surprised me somewhat, but
a Google seemed to bear out this orthodoxy.

FWIW, I am with you Michael - if alcohol gets out then air must be
able to get in. Alcohol molecules are bigger than oxygen molecules.

Seems to me the issue is rather how much air actually enters, and to
what effect.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Steve Slatcher > wrote:

> FWIW, I am with you Michael - if alcohol gets out then air must
> be able to get in. Alcohol molecules are bigger than oxygen
> molecules.

It's not the alcohol only that evaporates, it's water too.

> Seems to me the issue is rather how much air actually enters,
> and to what effect.

We have the paradox that all three possibilities

- Ullaged bottles (with air inside)

- bottles with perfect corks (no ullage over decades)

- bottles from shipwrecks

Can produce perfectly matured wine (although the risk of
madeirisation = oxidation is higher, the bigger the ullage, of
course).

I don't see any problems for crown and screw caps not coming to
exactly the same result.

M.

P.S.: For the first time a sig:

--
Ceterum censeo corticem esse delendam

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 1 Mar 2004 11:50:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> Seems to me the issue is rather how much air actually enters,
>> and to what effect.
>
>We have the paradox that all three possibilities
>
>- Ullaged bottles (with air inside)
>
>- bottles with perfect corks (no ullage over decades)

Humm, this is where I have some doubts Michael. We both have some experience
with older bottles. Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you've
ever seen a bottle over 20 years old, with no ullage at all. I can't. This
leads me to the inescapable conclusion that NO cork makes a perfectly
airtight seal. Given the work of Paster, which showed that the aging of
wines was linked to oxygen, and Mark's view - as a professor of organic
chemistry - that tannins are unlikely to polymerise out of solution in total
absence of oxygen, I think it's unwise to be quite so black and white about
corks - when it comes to long aging wines.

>- bottles from shipwrecks

I have heard anecdotal evidence that such bottles are good, but not seen any
hard evidence from experts. If you have references on this, I'd be most
grateful.

>madeirisation = oxidation is higher, the bigger the ullage, of
>course).

Of course. I'm not saying that there are NO risks associated with ullage in
wine, but that it seems to me to be _part of the normal aging process_, as
we have experienced it over the 200 years we've aged wine under cork.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:41:27 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you've
>ever seen a bottle over 20 years old, with no ullage at all.

Corks are not meant to last more than 25 years. A good quality cork
under 25 years OUGHT to be a perfect seal. Alas, there can be no
guarantees of that.

I agree with Michael that the sooner we get rid of cork, the better.

Mike
(who just emptied a corked 2000 Vouvray sec by Foreau into the sink,
GRRRRRRR!)

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Ian Hoare > wrote:

>>- bottles with perfect corks (no ullage over decades)

> Humm, this is where I have some doubts Michael. We both have
> some experience with older bottles. Can you put your hand on
> your heart and say that you've ever seen a bottle over 20 years
> old, with no ullage at all. I can't.

Yes I can. Pichon-Lalande 1982, seen 1.5 years ago in Paris
(Taillevent) at a lunch given by the owners. These four bottles
(coming directly from the chteau) had absolutely perfect fill
levels (and probably were chosen for this reason).

> This leads me to the inescapable conclusion that NO cork makes a
> perfectly airtight seal. Given the work of Paster, which showed
> that the aging of wines was linked to oxygen, and Mark's view -
> as a professor of organic chemistry - that tannins are unlikely
> to polymerise out of solution in total absence of oxygen,

Mark's position has been disputed here. I am no chemist at all, so
I can't pronounce myself on this.

> I think it's unwise to be quite so black and white about corks -
> when it comes to long aging wines.

I am black & white on corks because of unacceptable TCA taints,
that's all.

>>- bottles from shipwrecks

> I have heard anecdotal evidence that such bottles are good, but
> not seen any hard evidence from experts. If you have references
> on this, I'd be most grateful.

I have never tasted one myself, but there Hardy Rodenstock once
presented Gruaud-Larose from an American ship (more than half of
the bottles were completely undrinkable, but a smaller part was
well-preserved). If you do a short google search for
"heidsieck-1907" you will find the well documented story of the
"Jonköping". She sunk in 1916 with apparently the last consignment
of fine wine and cognac for the tsar. I definitely remember
Michael Broadbent referring to wine from shipwrecks (Madeira?) in
the older editions of his book, but I seem unable to find the
reference.

>>madeirisation = oxidation is higher, the bigger the ullage, of
>>course).

> Of course. I'm not saying that there are NO risks associated
> with ullage in wine, but that it seems to me to be _part of the
> normal aging process_, as we have experienced it over the 200
> years we've aged wine under cork.

Which does not mean they won't age as gracefully - or even better
- under a better metal closure.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

>>Humm, this is where I have some doubts Michael. We both have
>>some experience with older bottles. Can you put your hand on
>>your heart and say that you've ever seen a bottle over 20 years
>>old, with no ullage at all. I can't.
>>
>>
>
>Yes I can. Pichon-Lalande 1982, seen 1.5 years ago in Paris
>(Taillevent) at a lunch given by the owners. These four bottles
>(coming directly from the chteau) had absolutely perfect fill
>levels (and probably were chosen for this reason).
>

Don't the top wineries recork their wine every 20 to 25 years Michael? I
remember a TV
program on Mouton some 20 years back and I am certain that the Baron
explained this was
policy in his cellar.

"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> (Mark Willstatter) wrote:
>
> > I don't see anything in what Mark L. said that rejects the idea
> > that reduction has a role - even a primary role - in wine bottle
> > ageing. He only said that any *oxidative* processes taking place
> > must get oxygen from somewhere. It's tough to argue with that!
>
> Good bottles from Shipwrecks. As tough to argue with that!
>
Is it?
Fish do get oxygen...
Now we need a discursion on oxygen molecules being pushed in through the
cork by high pressure on the outside - anybody up to that task?
Anders

Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines wrote:

>
> Incorrect. There are 2 types of polymerization-- oxidative and
> non-oxidative. It is the non-oxidative which is normally associated with
> the polymerization of tannins in quality table wines.

Craig,
I've done some looking, and perhaps I now understand this statement. There is
one type of polymerization that results from the cross-linking of proanthocyanidins
with acetaldehyde. If that is what you mean by non-oxidative, then I feel that it
simply begs the question since acetaldehyde is the product of alcohol oxidation. I
realize that there might be various "storage forms" of acetaldehyde, but their
ultimate source is almost certainly an oxidation event. Am I missing something
here?

Mark Lipton

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you've
> ever seen a bottle over 20 years old, with no ullage at all. I can't.

Hi, Ian -

Actually, I suspect you meant to say "no _increase_ in ullage". Correct?

If that's the case, I have definitely seen bottles that remained at the same
fill level for decades. Some of the Heitz "Martha's Vineyard" bottlings
come to mind, as well as other top Cabernets. I really can't account for
that except to assume that any bottle that experiences an increase in ullage
(most) either has a defective cork or a cork that has become saturated with
wine. For some reason, not all corks soak up a significant amount of the
contents, but I have certainly pulled corks that were noticeably heavy with
liquid (wine).

Tom S

Wat do you mean by the so2 is consumed? What happens to the SO2 after
bottling/


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Mark Willstatter wrote:
>
> > Mark, what do you mean when you say that "wine at the time of bottling
> > is in a reductive state". Although the science of bottle ageing is
> > poorly understood, from what I've read, possible sources of oxygen in
> > the wine include small amounts dissolved in the wine during racking
> > (including, for example, consolidating wine from barrels into one tank
> > for bottling), during the bottling process (although even home
> > winemakers are taught to minimize this), from within the cork itself
> > as wine saturates it over time and the (variable) permeability of
> > cork. Protecting wine from oxidation caused by oxygen dissolved in
> > the wine during bottling is one of the main reasons (along with it
> > being their last chance) winemakers typically bump up SO2 levels
> > before bottling.
>
> It is this last statement that I was referring to. The added SO2 means
that all the
> oxygen present at the time of bottling will be consumed soon afterward.
From that moment
> on, the wine is in what I called a reductive state -- the tannins in the
wine can serve as
> reducing agents -- unless oxygen finds its way into the sealed bottle.
>
> >
> >
> > As I said in my other post, I certainly accept that the primary bottle
> > ageing mechanism is reductive. But like you (I think), I think it's
> > far from proven that the cork plays no role at all. I think some of
> > those who are upset enough about tainted wine to immediately put
> > everything under screwcap are perhaps just a little to eager to
> > dismiss the effects of cork permeability. Maybe none of corks
> > contributions are positive, I don't know - I just haven't been
> > convinced. And I would be happy to *be* convinced - if screwcaps are
> > indeed the all-purpose answer, then life would be simpler!
>
> There are so many factors at play here, Mark, that it makes my head hurt.
Is the cork a
> hermetic seal? (I doubt it) What are the processes that account for
bottle aging?
> (complex issue) Is a screwcap a hermetic seal? (probably moreso than a
cork, but
> unlikely to be perfect, either) etc., etc.
>
> Some of my view on this matter comes from my experience in lab: I've
observed oxygen
> diffusion through 5 mm of plasticized polyethylene against a pressure
gradient. It's been
> noted that sealed glass ampules show the (very) gradual diffusion of
oxygen into them over
> the span of years. In any contest involving the diffusion of oxygen, my
money is on the
> oxygen. It floats like a butterfly and stings like a hornet! ;-)
>
> Mark Lipton
>
>

Pantheras > wrote:

> Don't the top wineries recork their wine every 20 to 25 years
> Michael?

No. Afaik, they have stopped that long ago - for risk of TCA
contamination.

M.

Mark Lipton > wrote:

> In fact, I'm in favor of adoption of Stelvin closures worldwide.
> Like you, I think that consumer choice is optimal in this
> matter. I would like to be able to buy e.g. 2000 Lynch-Bages
> under both cork and Stelvin and do a comparitive tasting in 2020
> or so... ;-)

So do I!

> Like Ian, I would be fascinated to see the results of a
> comparitive tasting of the same wine, one bottle stored in
> impeccable conditions (a la Glammis castle) and the other
> recovered from a shipwreck. Of course, we'd have to have at
> least 6 bottles of each to factor out bottle variation, but I
> think that the results would be most revealing. Perhaps the
> illustrious Herr Rodenstock could actually arrange such a thing?
> I'd be willing to fly out to Vienna for such an event ;-)

It won't happen. First, Hardy Rodenstock resides in Munich (but
this would be the easiest part of the problem), but then, if ever
these types of bottles pop up, it's extremely unlikely to find
exactly a half dozen bottles of the same wine with an impecable
provenance à la Glamis castle. Alas ...

M.

>Tom,
> You've got the gist of it. The sulfites added at bottling time will
>rapidly consume any oxygen trapped within the bottle, so any oxidative
processes taking place in the year(s) subsequent to bottling strongly argue for
the influx of new oxygen -- through or around the cork, as the case may be.
>
>Mark Lipton
>
Thanks for the reply Mark. Between a slew of grading and this latest storm
(lots of wet snow), this is the first chance I've had to reply.

Tom Schellberg

Just a point of amusement, but if anyone read US's _Vintage_ magazine about
1979 or 1980 (the proud, advertising-free, non-revenue-influenced US
wine-critic publication that failed badly; its writers then going to a new
magazine -- Speculator or some name, I forget -- _d'opinion Capitaliste_ --
which prospered) -- you remember the hoax on the lost village of Domjelac
(in Basque country? Andorra? RSM? -- some such place). Old bottles were
found with (Mr Lipton please note!) -- perfect seals, like ampoules, from
melted glass tops. Detailed tasting notes from 200 year old wines, many
nuances. It was an "April" edition. Descriptions were realistic and
engaging. (Of course, I was not fooled for a minute ... :-)

-- Max

By the way I met an experienced food writer living in Andorra -- British by
birth -- who asserted that the population (circa 50,000) all had the
individual authority to close the borders on request -- makes thieves think
twice before visiting, he said.


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I agree. Like Ian, I would be fascinated to see the results of a
> comparitive tasting of the same wine, one bottle stored in impeccable
> conditions (a la Glammis castle) and the other recovered from a
> shipwreck. Of course, we'd have to have at least 6 bottles of each ...

I put shipwreck and wines into Google and came up with:

______________________________________

http://rms-republic.com/in_the_news/ws10_31_87.html

______________________________________

This should add some more complexity to this discussion. I have followed
this thread with interest, but I decided I had little to add other than
speculation. I will say that long ago cork was high tech for the time
compared to oil seals, wooden pegs, and such. However there must surely
be a better way today. But this is a consumer issue, except for corked
wines that show up early, so as usual it will be difficult to find
anyone willing to pay for detailed research.

Salut/Hi Joe,

le/on Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:04:42 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

>Wat do you mean by the so2 is consumed? What happens to the SO2 after
>bottling/

Well first it's dissolved and combines with water

H20+SO2=H2(SO3), this dissociates to form H+ and (So3)- ions.

Then these combine with oxygen

2(SO3-)+02=2(SO4-)
and the sulphurous ions becomes sulphuric ones.

That's easy!! The point at issue is that SO2 (sulphurous ions, actually)
have a very powerful attraction for oxygen - much more so than most of the
other components in wine. So if there IS any oxygen present in wine
containing sulphites (sulphurous ions), it will rapidly be combined with the
sulphites _before_ any other (slower) oxidation can take place. Actually
this isn't _exactly_ what happens, because all these chemical reactions are
a matter of equilibria rather than one way processes, but these equilibria
are reached with differing speeds and with different priorities. The
relatively energetyic oxidation of SO2 takes priority. And the SO3 formed is
so stable that to all intents and purposed, it takes little part in any
redox reactions.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:53:17 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you've
>> ever seen a bottle over 20 years old, with no ullage at all. I can't.

>Actually, I suspect you meant to say "no _increase_ in ullage". Correct?

Not quite. There's a reasonable presumption that a bottle of good wine is
filled very close to the cork. So if you look at a bottle of 20 year old
wine, you will find that it's extremely rare to find one where the ullage
(the space between top of wine and botton of cork - in this use of the word)
doesn't exist.
>
>If that's the case, I have definitely seen bottles that remained at the same
>fill level for decades.

Interesting. Cos I can't think of any, off hand. I'd not claim that they're
down to top if shoulder or anything like that, but for me it's the norm for
there to be a good couple of cms or so under the cork. Certainly, if you
look at Christie's documentation and what they say about bottle fill levels,
they make it quite clear that it is perfectly normal for wine levels to
drop. I don't think that one can seriously dispute that _no one_ can match
them for the number of old wines that they have seen (not necessarily
tasted) over the decades of wine auctions in London (not to mention other
sales venues).

>come to mind, as well as other top Cabernets. I really can't account for
>that except to assume that any bottle that experiences an increase in ullage
>(most) either has a defective cork or a cork that has become saturated with
>wine. For some reason, not all corks soak up a significant amount of the
>contents, but I have certainly pulled corks that were noticeably heavy with
>liquid (wine).

I would say that some wine loss is normal, but that there may be a very few
corks which for some reason haven't allowed a passage of liquid/air. I would
hazard a guess that the only case where there would be none, may actually be
less due to the corks themselves, but to environments where there was NO
significant temperature variation. I've explained this is detail before, but
it is obvious that the mechanism which drives the evacuation of wine and
ingress of air is the steady 6 monthly variation in temperature in the
cellar. If there's NO variation then there will be nothing to drive wine
past/through/into the cork and therefore fill levels may not change. My
point being that I'm less convinced than Michael that the process of aging
and improvement of top wines is entirely independent of oxygen.

While I'm wholly on the side of screw caps use for 90% - maybe more - of
wines, I'd be worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if ALL
wines were sealed under Stelvin. I'm not saying it IS so, but merely that it
_might_ be so. The great problem of course is that until experiments are
made by enough top wineries under varying conditions, we simply won't have
enough data to work with. I DO accept that there's already a lot of evidence
that shows that wines age under Stelvin, but from what I can see, this
evidence is not so unequivocal over _how_ it ages. Is it the same? Better?
Worse? In what way?
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

(Cwdjrx _) wrote:

> http://rms-republic.com/in_the_news/ws10_31_87.html

Thank you, interesting read.

There is another piece he

<http://www.guy-saget.com/vin_de_la_mer.htm>

In 1990, Loire winegrower Jean-Louis Saget decided to put some of
his wines 10 meters under sea water. The first tasting was 1994.
The key sentence:

| Une étonnante dégustation comparative des bouteilles témoins
| restées en cave et des vins "de mer" révèle que ces derniers
| sont restés beaucoup plus jeunes tout en développant une plus
| grande complexité.

"An astonishing comparative tasting of the reference bottles from
the cellar against the "sea bottles" showed that the latter kept
their youth much better while getter more complex."

Would that be accepted as a proof of ageing without oxigen?

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

> There is another piece he
>
> <http://www.guy-saget.com/vin_de_la_mer.htm>
>
> In 1990, Loire winegrower Jean-Louis Saget decided to put some of
> his wines 10 meters under sea water. The first tasting was 1994.
> The key sentence:
>
> | Une étonnante dégustation comparative des bouteilles témoins
> | restées en cave et des vins "de mer" révèle que ces derniers
> | sont restés beaucoup plus jeunes tout en développant une plus
> | grande complexité.
>
> "An astonishing comparative tasting of the reference bottles from
> the cellar against the "sea bottles" showed that the latter kept
> their youth much better while getter more complex."
>
> Would that be accepted as a proof of ageing without oxigen?
>

A few years back a group of divers salvaged some champagne and rum (or
cognac, I'm not quite sure) from a wreck of a schooner that had been
sunk in the Gulf of Bothnia by a German U-Boat during WWI.

If memory serves me right, the champagne was still in good condition, if
aged, and the auctioned bottles fetched high prices. The spirits,
however, were spoiled.

Too bad I can't remember the name of the salvors or the wreck. There was
quite a bit of interest in the wreck on both sides of the Gulf of
Bothnia at the time so the Swedish contributors to this group might
remember something.

Cheers,

-Topi Kuusinen, Finland