Hi

Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
artificially before pressing them?" and I have some vague recollection
that I read here that there's some fairly recent regulation about
this. Can anyone help me.... Am I going round the bend here?

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:51:51 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Hi
>
>Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
>Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
>in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
>Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
>artificially before pressing them?" and I have some vague recollection
>that I read here that there's some fairly recent regulation about
>this. Can anyone help me.... Am I going round the bend here?

from
http://www.tonyaspler.com/pub/articl...asp?id=979&s=5

Icewine is made by allowing the grapes to hang on the vine until they
freeze naturally. Since the juice is rich in sugar, the temperature
has to drop well below freezing and stay there long enough for the
bunches to be harvested and pressed while still in their frozen state.
A thaw will cause the ice to melt and the water will dilute the sugars
and acids, rendering the juice at harvest below the minimum sugar
level of 32 Brix.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:05:16 -0330, Young Martle >
wrote:



hmmm! Not sure how that happened. I meant to send this
http://www.winesofcanada.com/icewine_standards.html

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
>
> Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
> Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
> in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
> Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
> artificially before pressing them?"

What rubbish! We don't have to!!
Graham

graham wrote:

>>
>> Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
>> Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
>> in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
>> Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
>> artificially before pressing them?"
>
> What rubbish! We don't have to!!
> Graham

You echo my own thoughts, Graham. My first reaction was "the last thing
they have to worry about in Canada is the grapes _not_ freezing!"

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> graham wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
>>> Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
>>> in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
>>> Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
>>> artificially before pressing them?"
>>
>> What rubbish! We don't have to!!
>> Graham
>
> You echo my own thoughts, Graham. My first reaction was "the last thing
> they have to worry about in Canada is the grapes _not_ freezing!"
>

I think that they were able to pick a bit earlier this year, in December
rather than January. Unfortunately, I live where it's too cold for
grapes{:-( In fact it's too cold for most fruit.
Graham

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:39:40 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:
>>
>> What rubbish! We don't have to!!
>> Graham
>
>You echo my own thoughts, Graham. My first reaction was "the last thing
>they have to worry about in Canada is the grapes _not_ freezing!"
>
>Mark Lipton

I live in Newfoundland, Canada.
I visited a farm where the owners are trying a variety of grapes.

I mentioned icewine.
They said something about needing at least 8 days of a certain
temperature.

Newfoundland rarely (if ever) gets that cold for that long. Surprise!

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:07:47 -0700, "graham" > wrote:

>
>"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Hi
>>
>> Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
>> Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
>> in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
>> Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
>> artificially before pressing them?"
>
>What rubbish! We don't have to!!

that's not the question I asked. Are you allowed to? I read the page
youngmyrtle gave me (thanks YM) and that was unequivocal in so far as
wines from British Columbia
>5. Artificial refridgeration is prohibited except for tank colling during fermentation and during cold stabilization prior to bottling

But when I looked for the same unequivocal phrase in the rules for
wines from Ontario, I found something which could be a clever way of
misleading with a definite undistributed middle

When Harvesting the grapes must be in their natural frozen state ideal
temp -10 to -13 C

~ The grapes must be pressed when frozen

So they must be harvested frozen and pressed frozen, butthere's no
similar rule to British Columbia's forbidding artificial
refrigeration.

So by reading between the lines they could be kept in a freezer or
even cooled further in a freezer between harvesting and pressing.

I know that at one time, Canadian ice wines were sometimes "helped"
using artificial methods, so I'd be grateful if you could tell me
unequivocally, if such a procedure isnow specifically forbidden or
not.

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:07:47 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
>>> Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
>>> in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
>>> Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
>>> artificially before pressing them?"
>>
>>What rubbish! We don't have to!!
>
> that's not the question I asked. Are you allowed to? I read the page
> youngmyrtle gave me (thanks YM) and that was unequivocal in so far as
> wines from British Columbia
>>5. Artificial refridgeration is prohibited except for tank colling during
>>fermentation and during cold stabilization prior to bottling
>
> But when I looked for the same unequivocal phrase in the rules for
> wines from Ontario, I found something which could be a clever way of
> misleading with a definite undistributed middle
>
> When Harvesting the grapes must be in their natural frozen state ideal
> temp -10 to -13 C
>
> ~ The grapes must be pressed when frozen
>
> So they must be harvested frozen and pressed frozen, butthere's no
> similar rule to British Columbia's forbidding artificial
> refrigeration.
>
> So by reading between the lines they could be kept in a freezer or
> even cooled further in a freezer between harvesting and pressing.
>
> I know that at one time, Canadian ice wines were sometimes "helped"
> using artificial methods, so I'd be grateful if you could tell me
> unequivocally, if such a procedure isnow specifically forbidden or
> not.
>
I never heard of it during my trips to the Okanagan and the wineries always
made a big thing of picking in the middle of the night when the grapes were
frozen.
Bill S. would be the best person to answer this.
Graham

Hi again Graham,

When I first wrote, I hoped for a simple reply like "It's been
forbidden since 20??" or whatever.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:51:13 -0700, "graham" > wrote:


>> I know that at one time, Canadian ice wines were sometimes "helped"
>> using artificial methods, so I'd be grateful if you could tell me
>> unequivocally, if such a procedure isnow specifically forbidden or
>> not.
>>
>I never heard of it during my trips to the Okanagan and the wineries always
>made a big thing of picking in the middle of the night when the grapes were
>frozen.

Yes indeed they would do so. But since I write my latest reply, I've
been doing some more reading. Canadian Icewine makers don't _have_ to
adhere to the VQA rules and in fact Wiki says ice wine production is
only regulated by the "Vintners Quality Alliance in the provinces of
British Columbia and Ontario". I've not managed to find in my brief
forays on the web, whether there are ANY regulations that are binding
on ALL ice wine making in Canada, and so far, I can't.

I've already quoted the VQA rules for Ontario, and even they don't
specifically forbid using a freezer between harvest and pressing. I'm
not saying they do it, but seeking to find out what the regulations
are.

When I read - also in Wiki, which could be suspect, of course,

"Canadian rules were further tightened in British Columbia in 2000
after a producer dealt with the mild winter of 1999 by moving grapes
up to the mountains to seek freezing temperatures."

I suppose it's possible that I was thinking of this in the context of
"recent regulations".

It's also possible that the person who asked me, had read of the huge
levels of counterfeiting that was going on, or of Bonny Doon's "vin de
glaciere. "

>Bill S. would be the best person to answer this.

Probably, though I've never got the impression that he's got heavily
involved in the legal framework of winemaking in Canada. even though
he's a lawyer living in BC.

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Hi again Graham,
>
> When I first wrote, I hoped for a simple reply like "It's been
> forbidden since 20??" or whatever.
>
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:51:13 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>
>
>>> I know that at one time, Canadian ice wines were sometimes "helped"
>>> using artificial methods, so I'd be grateful if you could tell me
>>> unequivocally, if such a procedure isnow specifically forbidden or
>>> not.
>>>
>>I never heard of it during my trips to the Okanagan and the wineries
>>always
>>made a big thing of picking in the middle of the night when the grapes
>>were
>>frozen.
>
> Yes indeed they would do so. But since I write my latest reply, I've
> been doing some more reading. Canadian Icewine makers don't _have_ to
> adhere to the VQA rules and in fact Wiki says ice wine production is
> only regulated by the "Vintners Quality Alliance in the provinces of
> British Columbia and Ontario". I've not managed to find in my brief
> forays on the web, whether there are ANY regulations that are binding
> on ALL ice wine making in Canada, and so far, I can't.
>
> I've already quoted the VQA rules for Ontario, and even they don't
> specifically forbid using a freezer between harvest and pressing. I'm
> not saying they do it, but seeking to find out what the regulations
> are.
>

It makes sense that if you have a limited time to pick a largish crop and
having limited pressing ability, temporary storage in a freezer makes
sense - and I can't see any harm in that.
Graham

On Feb 19, 5:31*pm, "graham" > wrote:
> "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Hi again Graham,
>
> > When I first wrote, I hoped for a simple reply like "It's been
> > forbidden since 20??" or whatever.
>
> > On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:51:13 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>
> >>> I know that at one time, Canadian ice wines were sometimes "helped"
> >>> using artificial methods, so I'd be grateful if you could tell me
> >>> unequivocally, if such a procedure isnow specifically forbidden or
> >>> not.
>
> >>I never heard of it during my trips to the Okanagan and the wineries
> >>always
> >>made a big thing of picking *in the middle of the night when the grapes
> >>were
> >>frozen.
>
> > Yes indeed they would do so. But since I write my latest reply, I've
> > been doing some more reading. Canadian Icewine makers don't _have_ to
> > adhere to the VQA rules and in fact Wiki says ice wine production is
> > only regulated by the *"Vintners Quality Alliance in the provinces of
> > British Columbia and Ontario". I've not managed to find in my brief
> > forays on the web, whether there are ANY regulations that are binding
> > on ALL ice wine making in Canada, and so far, I can't.
>
> > I've already quoted the VQA rules for Ontario, and even they don't
> > specifically forbid using a freezer between harvest and pressing. I'm
> > not saying they do it, but seeking to find out what the regulations
> > are.
>
> It makes sense that if you have a limited time to pick a largish crop and
> having limited pressing ability, temporary storage in a freezer makes
> sense - *and I can't see any harm in that.

Just for comparison, let us consider how German eiswein is made. With
the then new 1971 wine laws, an eiswein, if the grapes were properly
frozen on the vine, could be of anything from kabinett to TBA level,
based on the sugar content of the juice pressed from the frozen
grapes. But the juice, if pressed from the same grapes unfrozen might
be of a considerably lower sugar content. Thus grapes that would
normally make a kabinett wine might make an auslese eiswein since
sugar is greatly concentrated in the juice pressed from the frozen
grapes. There actually were a few kabinett eisweins made, which would
be well below kabinett sugar content if pressed from unfrozen grapes,
and just met the kabinett level of sweetness when pressed as eiswein.
I have tasted such wine, and it is not a very pretty thing that might
best be described as essence of greeness. Because such nasty eiswines
were giving German eiswein a bad name, a few years later the law was
changed so that only frozen grapes that give a BA or TBA level of
sugar content in the pressed juice could be called eiswein and BA or
TBA could not be added to the name - only eiswein.

With this background, eisweins are seldom made from the best grapes in
the best years such as 1976 when many TBAs well over the legal lower
sugar content limit can be produced. A high end TBA capable grape
contains so much sugar that the nearly dry grapes would require
extremely low temperatures to freeze well. However using refrigeration
to freeze the TBA grapes to an extremely low temperature, it might be
possible to make a super rich eiswein that would be as rich as Tokay
Essence from Hungary. Eisweins are interesting, but I will usually
like a true TBA from a good vineyard and wine maker better than their
eiswein.

The danger in allowing eiswein to be made and sold, is that some will
make eiswein from grapes that are not nearly ripe enough and that
contain too much sharp acidity unless there are very strict rules,
such as now in Germany. I see no reason why use of refrigeration or
natural freezing should make any difference, other than some will be
tempted to harvest the grapes too soon if they can use refrigeration
to freeze the grapes.

Hi Graham,

>It makes sense that if you have a limited time to pick a largish crop and
>having limited pressing ability, temporary storage in a freezer makes
>sense - and I can't see any harm in that.

I can do lttle to improve on cwdjr's answer. when it comes to talking
about the possible harm.

I'd only add that IF there were no possible harm, then I don't see why
BC should specifically forbid it.

My original question wasn't designed in any way to cause a dispute,
but to clarify a question that was raised elsewhere.

Icewine might be quite a big thing in Canadian wineloving circles, but
on a world scale, very sweet wines from any country are very much of
minority interest, and ice wine even less so. So in that context, it's
reasonable for people not to have much idea of what can and can't be
done, and even where. It's perfectly possible that Sue (the person who
asked me) was thinking of the vin de glaciere from Bonny Doon when she
said she'd heard of ice wines being made from grapes frozen in the
freezer.

As I said before, my original question had little to do with the
rights or wrongs of this or that technique.

Is it worth repeating it? I'd dearly love to have an answer, which so
far I've not been able to find on the web.

>She asked "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes artificially before pressing them?" and I have some vague recollection
> that I read here that there's some fairly recent regulation about this. Can anyone help me.... Am I going round the bend here?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm insultig the integrity of Canadian
winemakers. I'm not. I'm trying to find out what - if any -
regulations exist for ALL makers of Ice wine in Canada - in the same
was as they do, say, in Germany. Or for Tokaji Aszu in Hungary, or for
Sauternes in France.

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> Sorry if it sounds like I'm insultig the integrity of Canadian
> winemakers. I'm not. I'm trying to find out what - if any -
> regulations exist for ALL makers of Ice wine in Canada - in the
> same was as they do, say, in Germany. Or for Tokaji Aszu in
> Hungary, or for Sauternes in France.

Quite obviously: apparently not. (Which does *not* imply that
anybody would use freezers in Canada.)

Btw, Austria has the same regulations as has Germany: no
artificial freezing permitted.

Thus said, I'd also say that probably there was a mix-up with
Bonny Doon's deep freezer wine.

M.

In article >,
says...
> Hi Graham,
>
> >It makes sense that if you have a limited time to pick a largish crop and
> >having limited pressing ability, temporary storage in a freezer makes
> >sense - and I can't see any harm in that.
>
> I can do lttle to improve on cwdjr's answer. when it comes to talking
> about the possible harm.
>
> I'd only add that IF there were no possible harm, then I don't see why
> BC should specifically forbid it.
>
> My original question wasn't designed in any way to cause a dispute,
> but to clarify a question that was raised elsewhere.
>
> Icewine might be quite a big thing in Canadian wineloving circles, but
> on a world scale, very sweet wines from any country are very much of
> minority interest, and ice wine even less so. So in that context, it's
> reasonable for people not to have much idea of what can and can't be
> done, and even where. It's perfectly possible that Sue (the person who
> asked me) was thinking of the vin de glaciere from Bonny Doon when she
> said she'd heard of ice wines being made from grapes frozen in the
> freezer.
>
> As I said before, my original question had little to do with the
> rights or wrongs of this or that technique.
>
> Is it worth repeating it? I'd dearly love to have an answer, which so
> far I've not been able to find on the web.
>
> >She asked "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes artificially before pressing them?" and I have some vague recollection
> > that I read here that there's some fairly recent regulation about this. Can anyone help me.... Am I going round the bend here?
>
> Sorry if it sounds like I'm insultig the integrity of Canadian
> winemakers. I'm not. I'm trying to find out what - if any -
> regulations exist for ALL makers of Ice wine in Canada - in the same
> was as they do, say, in Germany. Or for Tokaji Aszu in Hungary, or for
> Sauternes in France.
>
>
>
>
At this time, only BC and Ontario wineries belong to the
Vintner's Quality Alliance (VQA). Those two provinces
constitute the bulk of Canadian made wines, with some
production in Quebec and some in scattered spots in the
Maritimes of non-Vitis Vinifera wines. The Ontario
Liquor Control Board (LCBO) is probably the single
largest buyer in the world, and uses its network of
government controlled stores to promote VQA wines where
possible. VQA wines still are a minority of wines
consumed in Canada, even in Ontario. Even if a winery
produces VQA wines, not all of the wines they produce
are qualified to be labelled VQA. Due to the LCBO's
requirements for sheer volume before a product is
listed, many of the better wines from the boutique
wineries are only sold locally, or only at the winery.

As far as I know, only VQA members are required to
follow the rules on Icewines at:

http://www.winesofcanada.com/icewine_standards.html

The icewine harvest in my neck of the woods was early
this year due to several prolonged cold spells in the
normally warmer "banana belt" of Canada, Lake Erie North
Shore appellation (latitude 42 degrees North- northern
California). The Nigagara region (closer to Toronto 400
km north of us) was a few weeks later than ours. There
are only about 15 boutique and 2 large scale wineries in
our appellation, compared to almost 10 times as many in
Niagara appellation.

You can browse the VQA websites to get an idea of
production compared to Europe, California or Australia
at:

www.vqaontario.com

www.winebc.com

Dennis
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
(next door to Detroit, Michigan, USA)

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> Ian Hoare wrote:
>> Hi Can anyone help me please. I was having a discussion about Apex 2004
>> Gewurztraminer Ice wine (yes I do realize that the Yakima valley isn't
>> in Canada) and the conversation turned to the techniques used to make
>> Ice Wine. Someone said "Don't the Canadians freeze their grapes
>> artificially before pressing them?" and I have some vague recollection
>> that I read here that there's some fairly recent regulation about
>> this. Can anyone help me.... Am I going round the bend here?
>
>
> Canada has agreed with Germany and Austria to only use the term Icewine if
> the wine is produced according to the same rules as Eiswein.
>
> Er, don't you all scream at me simultaneously, but it seems to me that
> freezing them artificially would probably result in exactly the same
> thing...
>

I e-mailed Tony Aspler, Canada's premier wine writer with Ian's original
query and received the following reply:

Graham, an agreement in 2000 between Germany, Austria and Canada mandated
that Icewine had to be made from vine-frozen grapes. This is part of the VQA
regulations - grapes must be frozen on the vine. The only instance of
cryo-extraction (grapes harvested then frozen in commercial freezers) was
Hillebrand's 1984 Vidal Icewine. Home winemakers use the technique of
freezing pressed juice and removing the ice that forms on top of the
container. I imagine that most of the counterfeit Icewine that ends up in
China and Taiwan is made by freezing grapes that have been harvested.
Cheers, Tony

Ps. There is no such restriction for Quebec's Ice Cider. It can be made from
apples frozen on the tree or harvested apples left outside to freeze.

Tony Aspler.com.

On Feb 22, 7:27*am, Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>
> Er, don't you all scream at me simultaneously, but it seems to me that
> freezing them artificially would probably result in exactly the same
> thing...

Not necessarily. Cryo-extracted grapes can be harvested along with the
normally-processed grapes. Ice wine grapes, howevewr, must be left on
the vine until they freeze at -10C or so, usually in November,
December or January in the northern hemisphere. They are likely to
have a bit more sugar and less acid than grapes harvested in September
or October. I'd think that might have some influence on the final
product.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, only vine-frozen grapes can be lebeled as
ice wine in the US, as well as in Canada, Germany and Austria. Cryo-
extracted wines are not illegal, but they cannot be labeled as ice
wine.

> skrev i melding
...
On Feb 22, 7:27 am, Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>
>> Er, don't you all scream at me simultaneously, but it seems to me that
>> freezing them artificially would probably result in exactly the same
>> thing...

>Not necessarily. Cryo-extracted grapes can be harvested along with the
>normally-processed grapes. Ice wine grapes, howevewr, must be left on
>the vine until they freeze at -10C or so, usually in November,
>December or January in the northern hemisphere. They are likely to
>have a bit more sugar and less acid

And the freezing elevates both sugar and acid levels, I understand. I
recall an Erdener Busslay (Mosel) Ice Wine 1983 (I think) as one of the most
fabulous wines I've tasted. It had 13g/l acid... and with the RS to match,
it was a most mouthtitillating experience :-)
Anders

AFAIK all of the BC wineries do it the old fashioned way, waiting for
the grapes to freeze naturally. We never quite know what those in
Ontario get up to - I suspect that if they don't have enough frost
they could just trot out a politician to do stand up comedy (like
reading the new budget). That woud frost anything!

One must remember that the VQA is optional. In fact many of the very
best (and often smallest) producers do not belong to it - for two
reasons. They don't want to pay the fees to belong, and they sell
every bottle they make without the cachet of being VQA.

I recall in the 80s seeing wineries in Napa and Sonoma doing things
like spraying the grapes with botrytis to infect them and harvesting
and then using commercial freezers to concentrate the grapes. That
could possibly go on in BC, but I don't personally know of any
instances.

I regard BC ice wine as a confection to be put in little fancy
expensive bottles and sold at several times what they are worth to
Japanese tourists anxious to impress their coworkers and friends back
home.

I have never tasted (and I have tried many) of these wines that
matched or even approached the distinction or balance or flavour
interest of a decent german BA or Eiswein. If the stuff weren't so
damned expensive, it might be useful for filling our humminbird
feeder....

>
> The icewine harvest in my neck of the woods was early
> this year due to several prolonged cold spells in the
> normally warmer "banana belt" of Canada, Lake Erie North
> Shore appellation (latitude 42 degrees North- northern
> California).

That would be FAR northern California - about Yreka.

Hi Bill and everyone else who kindly answered,

I was amused to see Bill's comments, and am obliged to say that when I
was at an "off vinexpo" tasting with Michael P, there were a couple of
Canadian Icewines, along with quite a number of other glitterati in
the sweet wine world, I felt the canadians didn't live up to their
reputation or the company they were in. But as this must be about 8
years ago, I put it down to lack of experience.

I'm also gratified to see that he also pointed out that VQA is
optional. So it seems that in actual fact, there's nothing defined
either by individual states or nationally which defines what must or
must not be done, although there might be a restriction as to what it
can be called! Theoretically.

--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

In article >,
says...
> Hi Bill and everyone else who kindly answered,
>
> I was amused to see Bill's comments, and am obliged to say that when I
> was at an "off vinexpo" tasting with Michael P, there were a couple of
> Canadian Icewines, along with quite a number of other glitterati in
> the sweet wine world, I felt the canadians didn't live up to their
> reputation or the company they were in. But as this must be about 8
> years ago, I put it down to lack of experience.
>
> I'm also gratified to see that he also pointed out that VQA is
> optional. So it seems that in actual fact, there's nothing defined
> either by individual states or nationally which defines what must or
> must not be done, although there might be a restriction as to what it
> can be called! Theoretically.
>
> --
> All the best
> Fatty from Forges
>
Since BC and Ontario are the only provinces where VQA is
set up, the VQA requirements for Icewine are covered by
provincial legislation in those two provinces. Icewine
produced or sold in or from those two provinces (more
than 90 percent of Canadian wineries) would be covered
by those laws.

Dennis
Windsor, Ontario
(VQA appellation Lake Erie North Shore)