It's easy to imagine the accidental discovery of beer
and wine, maybe 10000 years ago. Grain ferments
naturally. We might speculate this was the genesis
of agriculture - the cavemen wanted a stable supply of barley.

But I was wondering about distilled liquor - it's a
sophisticated, nonintuitive process. This must have
appeared much later.

Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
was invented/discovered? What are the earliest records?


--
Rich

RichD > wrote:

> ...
> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
> was invented/discovered? What are the earliest records?

You can read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillation
But Wikipedia is highly suspect, at least to me.

While some crude forms of distillation may have existed
before 1200, the stills probably couldn't get the ABV much
higher than 25% to 30%. We know that, with tender loving
care, you can get fermentations without distillation to
from 20% to 25% ABV.

Brandy which is distilled wine (~40% ABV) was available,
at least in northern France, in the late 1100's.

I suspect the Scots were the first to run stills that
reached 40% ABV and were probably the first to use
double distillation to reach 80%+ ABV.

Dick

RichD wrote:
> It's easy to imagine the accidental discovery of beer
> and wine, maybe 10000 years ago. Grain ferments
> naturally. We might speculate this was the genesis
> of agriculture - the cavemen wanted a stable supply of barley.
>
> But I was wondering about distilled liquor - it's a
> sophisticated, nonintuitive process. This must have
> appeared much later.
>
> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
> was invented/discovered? What are the earliest records?

The Wikipedia article seems fairly well sourced to me, and jibes with
what I know of the history of Alchemy. Certainly, the Islamic scientist
Geber is widely credited with the development of "scientific"
distillation, and the name alcohol itself reveals its Islamic origins
(from Arabic al-kuhl, meaning "spirits" or something like that).

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

On Jul 9, 9:15*am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> RichD wrote:
> > It's easy to imagine the accidental discovery of beer
> > and wine, maybe 10000 years ago. *Grain ferments
> > naturally. *We might speculate this was the genesis
> > of agriculture - the cavemen wanted a stable supply of barley.
>
> > But I was wondering about distilled liquor - it's a
> > sophisticated, nonintuitive process. *This must have
> > appeared much later.
>
> > Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
> > was invented/discovered? *What are the earliest records?
>
> The Wikipedia article seems fairly well sourced to me, and jibes with
> what I know of the history of Alchemy. *Certainly, the Islamic scientist
> Geber is widely credited with the development of "scientific"
> distillation, and the name alcohol itself reveals its Islamic origins
> (from Arabic al-kuhl, meaning "spirits" or something like that).
>
> Mark Lipton

Yes, I have heard about the Islamic origins of distillation, and frm
there distillation spread to Europe. However the early history of
distillation may date back to the Chinese in 3000 BC. See a brief
discussion of the use of distillation at http://www.essentialspirits.com/history.htm
. This was written by a person well-known in the Cognac region, so it
likely is fairly accurate.

I doubt if many modern people would like to drink any of this early
brew, including that first made in France where it was called eau de
vie at first. "Firewater" likely would have been a more apt name back
then. Crude alcoholic distillates back then were considered medicine
for the most part. As time passed the firewater was sweetened and
various herbs and spices were added. An early example called
Goldwasser still can be found today. It is sweet, has considerable
herb-spice character, and has small particles of gold leaf in it.
Likely the early versions of Goldwasser were much less smooth, since
they were based on a less refined alcohol. At one time sugar was very
expensive. Thus a brew of alcohol, sugar, then expensive spices and
herbs, and gold should be a super medicine besides being far easier to
drink than the crude alcohol alone.

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> While some crude forms of distillation may have existed
> before 1200, the stills probably couldn't get the ABV much
> higher than 25% to 30%. We know that, with tender loving
> care, you can get fermentations without distillation to
> from 20% to 25% ABV.

And you can get higher concentrations by freezing
the crude prep and fishing out the ice. When
the crude prep is apple wine, the result is called
applejack. In northern Europe, this may have been
discovered accidentally when barrels were stored
where they would freeze in the winter (which is
pretty much anywhere in medieval northern Europe).

A few years ago, when I researched this on the web,
it quickly became apparent from reports of hobbyist
applejack-makers that you don't get a very good
result. It concentrates the alcohol, but it also
concentrates the fusel oil. Distillation gives you
a much higher quality product.

cwdjrxyz wrote:
> On Jul 9, 9:15 am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
>> RichD wrote:
>>> It's easy to imagine the accidental discovery of beer
>>> and wine, maybe 10000 years ago. Grain ferments
>>> naturally. We might speculate this was the genesis
>>> of agriculture - the cavemen wanted a stable supply of barley.
>>> But I was wondering about distilled liquor - it's a
>>> sophisticated, nonintuitive process. This must have
>>> appeared much later.
>>> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
>>> was invented/discovered? What are the earliest records?
>> The Wikipedia article seems fairly well sourced to me, and jibes with
>> what I know of the history of Alchemy. Certainly, the Islamic scientist
>> Geber is widely credited with the development of "scientific"
>> distillation, and the name alcohol itself reveals its Islamic origins
>> (from Arabic al-kuhl, meaning "spirits" or something like that).
>>
>> Mark Lipton
>
> Yes, I have heard about the Islamic origins of distillation, and frm
> there distillation spread to Europe. However the early history of
> distillation may date back to the Chinese in 3000 BC. See a brief
> discussion of the use of distillation at http://www.essentialspirits.com/history.htm
> . This was written by a person well-known in the Cognac region, so it
> likely is fairly accurate.
>
> I doubt if many modern people would like to drink any of this early
> brew, including that first made in France where it was called eau de
> vie at first. "Firewater" likely would have been a more apt name back
> then. Crude alcoholic distillates back then were considered medicine
> for the most part. As time passed the firewater was sweetened and
> various herbs and spices were added. An early example called
> Goldwasser still can be found today. It is sweet, has considerable
> herb-spice character, and has small particles of gold leaf in it.
> Likely the early versions of Goldwasser were much less smooth, since
> they were based on a less refined alcohol. At one time sugar was very
> expensive. Thus a brew of alcohol, sugar, then expensive spices and
> herbs, and gold should be a super medicine besides being far easier to
> drink than the crude alcohol alone.

Half fill a glass with Goldwasser, and slowly add Absinthe. It forms two
layers, green and clear. Or maybe it's the other way around. Can't
remember - but it's good:-)

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London

Mark Thorson > wrote:

> A few years ago, when I researched this on the web,
> it quickly became apparent from reports of hobbyist
> applejack-makers that you don't get a very good
> result. It concentrates the alcohol, but it also
> concentrates the fusel oil. Distillation gives you
> a much higher quality product.

I have read similar comments. The problem is the
methol alcohol and proper distillation protocol
eliminates it. But keep in mind that most alcohols
get their flavor from the barrels in which they are
aged

Eisbock is a freeze distillation bock beer. The
comments I have read on it consistent suggest
skimming the ice chips of the top every day or two
as opposed to letting chunks form. But I've never
read the science behind that.

Dick

Dick Adams wrote:
> RichD > wrote:
>
>> ...
>> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
>> was invented/discovered? What are the earliest records?
>
> You can read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillation
> But Wikipedia is highly suspect, at least to me.
>
> While some crude forms of distillation may have existed
> before 1200, the stills probably couldn't get the ABV much
> higher than 25% to 30%. We know that, with tender loving
> care, you can get fermentations without distillation to
> from 20% to 25% ABV.
>
> Brandy which is distilled wine (~40% ABV) was available,
> at least in northern France, in the late 1100's.
>
> I suspect the Scots were the first to run stills that
> reached 40% ABV and were probably the first to use
> double distillation to reach 80%+ ABV.

I have come across a mention that indicates the Romans had it but not very
efficient and did not catch on. It all depends on the equipment.

Reportedly the pot still was perfected in Islam and there came to be used in
alchemy for extracting essences from every thing as in perfumes. The next
improvement would be the coil condenser.

Clearly freeze separation would have been known in any climate cold enough to
have freezing temperatures.

--
He poureth me out as milk. He curdleth me as cheese.
Yeah though I walk through the Valley of the Cheesemakers
I shall fear no evil
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4032
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/ a8

>
> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
> was invented/discovered? *What are the earliest records?
>
> --
> Rich

Alcoholic distillation was first carried out in China. It travelled to
the West during the Middle Ages via Islam. Hence the name: Al-Cohol.

Cormac.

On Jul 9, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> > But I was wondering about distilled liquor - it's a
> > sophisticated, nonintuitive process. *This must have
> > appeared much later.
>
> > Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
> > was invented/discovered? *What are the earliest records?
>
> Certainly, the Islamic scientist
> Geber is widely credited with the development of "scientific"
> distillation, and the name alcohol itself reveals its Islamic origins
> (from Arabic al-kuhl, meaning "spirits" or something like that).

Interesting... doesn't the Koran have a few
words on the use of spirits?

--
Rich

Cormac wrote:
>> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
>> was invented/discovered? What are the earliest records?
>>
>> --
>> Rich
>
> Alcoholic distillation was first carried out in China. It travelled to
> the West during the Middle Ages via Islam. Hence the name: Al-Cohol.
>
> Cormac.

Just about everything was done first by China at some point.
Iron and suspension bridges in 600AD etc...

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London

Dick wrote on Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:14:29 +0000 (UTC):

>> A few years ago, when I researched this on the web,
>> it quickly became apparent from reports of hobbyist
>> applejack-makers that you don't get a very good
>> result. It concentrates the alcohol, but it also
>> concentrates the fusel oil. Distillation gives you
>> a much higher quality product.

> I have read similar comments. The problem is the
> methol alcohol and proper distillation protocol
> eliminates it. But keep in mind that most alcohols
> get their flavor from the barrels in which they are
> aged

Just don't try to make denatured alcohol drinkable by distillation!
Removing methyl alcohol from ethyl is very difficult

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James Silverton wrote:

> Just don't try to make denatured alcohol drinkable by distillation!
> Removing methyl alcohol from ethyl is very difficult
>

Likewise, absolute ethanol (200 proof) was a no-no for drinking because
of the use of benzene for the azeotropic removal of the 5% water present
in the azeotropic distillate of ethanol. I've wondered whether absolute
ethanol is still produced that way, or whether zeolites are now used to
remove the water. If so, I doubt that the fact is being widely
advertised, for obvious reasons.

"We never stagger
We never fall
We sober up on wood alcohol
While our loyal friends go marching
Back to the bars for more..."

(Sung to the tune of the Notre Dame fight song)

Mark (hic) Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

Matt Giwer wrote:

> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>> RichD > wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
>>> was invented/discovered? What are the earliest records?
>>
>>
>> You can read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillation
>> But Wikipedia is highly suspect, at least to me.
>>
>> While some crude forms of distillation may have existed
>> before 1200, the stills probably couldn't get the ABV much higher than
>> 25% to 30%. We know that, with tender loving care, you can get
>> fermentations without distillation to
>> from 20% to 25% ABV.
>>
>> Brandy which is distilled wine (~40% ABV) was available, at least in
>> northern France, in the late 1100's.
>>
>> I suspect the Scots were the first to run stills that
>> reached 40% ABV and were probably the first to use
>> double distillation to reach 80%+ ABV.
>
>
> I have come across a mention that indicates the Romans had it but
> not very efficient and did not catch on. It all depends on the equipment.
>
> Reportedly the pot still was perfected in Islam and there came to be
> used in alchemy for extracting essences from every thing as in perfumes.
> The next improvement would be the coil condenser.

What appears to be an alembic set-up was found in a "perfume
factory" at Pyrgos, Cyprus. It is dated to the early 2nd
millenium BC.

<http://en.museicapitolini.org/mostre_ed_eventi/mostre/i_profumi_di_afrodite_e_il_segreto_dell_olio/galleria_di_opere/(img)/1>

> Clearly freeze separation would have been known in any climate cold
> enough to have freezing temperatures.

On Jul 18, 7:46*pm, Italo > wrote:
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> > Dick Adams wrote:
>
> >> RichD > wrote:
>
> >>> ...
> >>> Anybody have any ideas when/where/how distillation
> >>> was invented/discovered? *What are the earliest records?
>
> >> You can readhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillation
> >> But Wikipedia is highly suspect, at least to me.
>
> >> While some crude forms of distillation may have existed
> >> before 1200, the stills probably couldn't get the ABV much higher than
> >> 25% to 30%. *We know that, with tender loving care, you can get
> >> fermentations without distillation to
> >> from 20% to 25% ABV.
>
> >> Brandy which is distilled wine (~40% ABV) was available, at least in
> >> northern France, in the late 1100's.
>
> >> I suspect the Scots were the first to run stills that
> >> reached 40% ABV and were probably the first to use
> >> double distillation to reach 80%+ ABV.
>
> > * * I have come across a mention that indicates the Romans had it but
> > not very efficient and did not catch on. It all depends on the equipment.