An addendum to the meal at Jardiniere that I previously wrote about: a
flight of Tokajis that Jean got at dessert time.

2000 Disznoko 4 Putts
nose: citrus
palate: lemon and earthy notes, but a bit dilute

1999 Oremus 5 Putts
n: lemons
p: rounded entry, rich lemony fruit, long finish

1996 Royal Tokaji Wine Company 6 Putts
n: totally different from the others, very much like Sherry
p: oxidative Sherry-like character, almost butterscotch, bears little to
no resemblance to the few Tokajis I've had

Of the three, the consensus winner was the Oremus. It had great
richness of flavor but also had the characteristics I expect to find in
Tokaji Aszu.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

On May 29, 9:17 pm, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> An addendum to the meal at Jardiniere that I previously wrote about: a
> flight of Tokajis that Jean got at dessert time.
>
> 2000 Disznoko 4 Putts
> nose: citrus
> palate: lemon and earthy notes, but a bit dilute

For the most part, Aszu starts at 5 P. for me. I don't drink young
Aszu, but the older examples of 4 P I have had usually are a bit
dilute for what Aszu can be.


> 1999 Oremus 5 Putts
> n: lemons
> p: rounded entry, rich lemony fruit, long finish

This sounds at least 20 years too young for me. This is a new wave
Tokaji, so I have no idea how it will develop. However, if it develops
as classic Aszu, it should have complex dried fruit character,
butterscotch and great length and intensity when 20 to perhaps 50
years old.


> 1996 Royal Tokaji Wine Company 6 Putts
> n: totally different from the others, very much like Sherry
> p: oxidative Sherry-like character, almost butterscotch, bears little to
> no resemblance to the few Tokajis I've had

It seems this wine may be a bit advanced for what would be expected if
it were a classic 6P Aszu. I worry that it has developed butterscotch
at such an early age and you do not mention intense dried fruit
character. It could just be starting to develop and be going through a
dumb phase for perhaps 20 to 50 years before it emerges with great
richness, complex and intense dried fruit character, and butterscotch.
But again it may not.

> Of the three, the consensus winner was the Oremus. It had great
> richness of flavor but also had the characteristics I expect to find in
> Tokaji Aszu.

This sounds like the winner if you must drink Aszu at such an early
age these days. For me, I am only interested in a classic style of
Aszu. The youngest I am drinking now is about 35 years old. However
you have to go back to 1945 and earlier to find out what classic Aszu,
Aszu Eszencia, and Eszencia can be. The 1945 Eszencia perhaps is the
most recent great Eszencia that is classic and ready to drink. Also
some of the 1945 Aszu Eszencias and 5-6 P Aszu were great wines. When
Tokaji production was taken over by the state and restructured after
1945, there was considerable decline, especially for the less rich
styles. However I have tasted a few 5-6 P Aszus and Aszu Eszencias
from that era that were very good, but not quite up to the best from
1945 and earlier.

A classic Eszencia is like no other wine I have ever tasted. When
fully aged at about 50 to over 100 years old, it is nearly
unbelievable. It is oily and very thick. The color is very dark. The
wine may be a bit cloudy because the extremely fine sediment often
never completely settles. The bouquet is extreme and very complex. It
includes a mix of dry fruit such as apple peel, apricots, and perhaps
citrus peel. Also mixed dried flowers often are apparent. Caramel or
butterscotch often is quite strong in both the bouquet and taste. Some
have called it a wine of autumn tastes and smells There often is a
spice character. The wine is nearly as sweet as honey, but there is
plenty of acid to balance that. Only a few drops will coat the mouth,
and the taste will linger for many minutes. The concentration is such
that a tiny serving of even about 1/2 oz is ample. And it usually
keeps very well after opening, although the alcohol content might be
only 3%. Likely the very high sugar and acid content protect it. The
best classic Aszu Eszencia can develop much as described above, but
there usually is considerably less of everything. There was a time
when you could sometimes find old classic Eszencia at auction, and the
price, while high, was no more than many top French wines from older,
classic vintages. Today you are lucky to find a top old classic
Eszencia at all, and if it is in good condition, and sometimes not,
the price likely will be extreme. Fortunately I bought some top Tokaji
about 30 years ago when it could still be found with a little effort,
and you did not have to be a millionaire to afford it.

> Mark Lipton
> --
> alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

> 2000 Disznoko 4 Putts

Is this a gold-derived rating system, or a technical term referring to
the percent acitidy divided by the molar vapor pressure over the resudal
sugar concentration at STP?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> gold-derived

golf-derived

I hate when that happens.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On May 30, 10:48 am, Jose > wrote:
> > 2000 Disznoko 4 Putts
>
> Is this a gold-derived rating system, or a technical term referring to
> the percent acitidy divided by the molar vapor pressure over the resudal
> sugar concentration at STP?

A puttony is an about 25 kilo measure, or a traditional hod, of grapes
in Hungary. The number of puttonys of the nearly dry grapes that have
been greatly concentrated by noble rot that are added per barrel of
dry base wine determines the sweetness of the wine. A barrel of dry
base wine is about 136 L. The Aszu wine usually runs from 3 to 6 P.
These days the measured residual sugar has replaced the number of hods
of grapes added. 3P contains about 60 g pf sugar per L while 6P
contains about 150. The next step up is Aszu Eszencia. It must contain
at least 180g of residual sugar per L. The best wine, made only in
minute quantities in the very best of years is Eszencia. It is made
with only free run juice without crushing or pressing from only the
best botrytis grapes with no added base wine. The sugar content of it
can exceed 750 g/L., depending on how much the sugar has been
concentrated in the botrytis grapes. At best, Eszencia can last for
centuries. It is the wine that Louis IV called the king of wines and
the wine for kings. Catherine the Great sent troops to Hungary to
guard it and safely bring it back to Russia. It has always been
extremely rare and costly.

Jose wrote:
>> 2000 Disznoko 4 Putts
>
> Is this a gold-derived rating system, or a technical term referring to
> the percent acitidy divided by the molar vapor pressure over the resudal
> sugar concentration at STP?

Assuming that this is a serious question: the "puttonyos" (aka "putts")
designation in Tokaj is a historical one. A puttonyo is a container for
grapes, so a 6 putts wine would be one that required 6 containers of
grapes to make a barrel (IIRC) of wine. Since the volume of the barrel
is constant, the higher putts wines would correspond to ones made from
smaller or drier grapes (i.e., more solids removed after pressing) and
consequently result in a more powerful wine. In the modern era, the
putts designation corresponds to a range of must weights, much as the
kabinett/spätlese/auslese/beerenauslese/TBA system works in Germany.

Mark Lipton

Thanks for the explanation.

> 3P contains about 60 g pf sugar per L while 6P
> contains about 150.

New math? Negative base sugar? Enquiring minds need to know.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

cwdjrxyz wrote:

> For the most part, Aszu starts at 5 P. for me. I don't drink young
> Aszu, but the older examples of 4 P I have had usually are a bit
> dilute for what Aszu can be.

On the basis of this one bottle, I'd tend to agree. I see from H.
Johnson's Pocket Guide that there is (in theory) also 7 putts Tokaji,
but I had thought that 6 putts was the usual upper limit before getting
to Aszu Eszencia (as opposed to true Eszencia). Have you ever seen a 7
putts bottling?


>> 1999 Oremus 5 Putts
>> n: lemons
>> p: rounded entry, rich lemony fruit, long finish
>
> This sounds at least 20 years too young for me. This is a new wave
> Tokaji, so I have no idea how it will develop. However, if it develops
> as classic Aszu, it should have complex dried fruit character,
> butterscotch and great length and intensity when 20 to perhaps 50
> years old.

Perhaps I will some day be able to render an opinion on this topic, but
you have the better of me here. I know that Tokaji is nearly immortal
and takes on quite different visual and flavor characteristics with age,
but to date the oldest I've had is the '96 RTWC below. One problem of
course with finding older wines is avoiding the miserable excuses for
Tokaji produced during the Communist era (I wonder if any decent Tokaji
was made in the '45-'59 period?)

>
>
>> 1996 Royal Tokaji Wine Company 6 Putts
>> n: totally different from the others, very much like Sherry
>> p: oxidative Sherry-like character, almost butterscotch, bears little to
>> no resemblance to the few Tokajis I've had
>
> It seems this wine may be a bit advanced for what would be expected if
> it were a classic 6P Aszu. I worry that it has developed butterscotch
> at such an early age and you do not mention intense dried fruit
> character. It could just be starting to develop and be going through a
> dumb phase for perhaps 20 to 50 years before it emerges with great
> richness, complex and intense dried fruit character, and butterscotch.
> But again it may not.

The big worry for me is the Sherry-like character, which we all
independently recognized (it was hard to miss). That suggests premature
oxidation, perhaps indicative of cork failure or a problem with the
elevage. FWIW, I had a '96 Szepsy 6 putts with Ian Hoare in '01 and it
was totally different in character from this wine (and much more
enjoyable) with plenty of dried fruit and earthy character.

> This sounds like the winner if you must drink Aszu at such an early
> age these days. For me, I am only interested in a classic style of
> Aszu. The youngest I am drinking now is about 35 years old. However
> you have to go back to 1945 and earlier to find out what classic Aszu,
> Aszu Eszencia, and Eszencia can be. The 1945 Eszencia perhaps is the
> most recent great Eszencia that is classic and ready to drink. Also
> some of the 1945 Aszu Eszencias and 5-6 P Aszu were great wines. When
> Tokaji production was taken over by the state and restructured after
> 1945, there was considerable decline, especially for the less rich
> styles. However I have tasted a few 5-6 P Aszus and Aszu Eszencias
> from that era that were very good, but not quite up to the best from
> 1945 and earlier.

A 35-year-old Tokaji would place it from 1972, squarely in the Communist
era. Is it at all good? My impression is that nothing of quality was
being made then. If not so, who was the producer? I know that Szepsy
was working for the gov't collective, so perhaps he made something of value?

<SNIP fascinating discussion of Eszencia>

Thanks again. It's always interesting to hear about wines that I'll
likely never get a chance to try.

Mark Lipton

On May 30, 3:03 pm, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> cwdjrxyz wrote:
> > For the most part, Aszu starts at 5 P. for me. I don't drink young
> > Aszu, but the older examples of 4 P I have had usually are a bit
> > dilute for what Aszu can be.
>
> On the basis of this one bottle, I'd tend to agree. I see from H.
> Johnson's Pocket Guide that there is (in theory) also 7 putts Tokaji,
> but I had thought that 6 putts was the usual upper limit before getting
> to Aszu Eszencia (as opposed to true Eszencia). Have you ever seen a 7
> putts bottling?

I have never seen a 7 putts bottling. I have just read about it as you
did. Even though I have been around many years, Aszu has been around
far longer. Perhaps a 7 putts wine was a bit more seen in the distant
past. I also have never seen anything lower than 4 putts.

>
> >> 1999 Oremus 5 Putts
> >> n: lemons
> >> p: rounded entry, rich lemony fruit, long finish
>
> > This sounds at least 20 years too young for me. This is a new wave
> > Tokaji, so I have no idea how it will develop. However, if it develops
> > as classic Aszu, it should have complex dried fruit character,
> > butterscotch and great length and intensity when 20 to perhaps 50
> > years old.
>
> Perhaps I will some day be able to render an opinion on this topic, but
> you have the better of me here. I know that Tokaji is nearly immortal
> and takes on quite different visual and flavor characteristics with age,
> but to date the oldest I've had is the '96 RTWC below. One problem of
> course with finding older wines is avoiding the miserable excuses for
> Tokaji produced during the Communist era (I wonder if any decent Tokaji
> was made in the '45-'59 period?)


Yes, there are some good wines from the 45-59 era. Michael Broadbent
describes many of them in his 3 vintage wine books over many years.
You need to view all 3 of his books to find some of the best ones. The
best state wine that comes to mind that I have and have tasted is the
Aszu Eszencia 1957. Broadbent rated this 5-star. The Aszu 6 putts 1959
and the Aszu-Eszencia 1964 are a bit of a step down, but still are
very good. The Aszu 5 putts 1975 also is quite good and holding. Many
others can be much like the Aszu 5 putts 1973. They are quite
drinkable but are not very interesting and only a hint of what fine
Aszu can be. All of these wines were once fairly easy to find at
auction at attractive prices. I no longer follow this market, but my
general impression is that the better ones are not seen very often,
and the price of them often is now fairly high.


> >> 1996 Royal Tokaji Wine Company 6 Putts
> >> n: totally different from the others, very much like Sherry
> >> p: oxidative Sherry-like character, almost butterscotch, bears little to
> >> no resemblance to the few Tokajis I've had
>
> > It seems this wine may be a bit advanced for what would be expected if
> > it were a classic 6P Aszu. I worry that it has developed butterscotch
> > at such an early age and you do not mention intense dried fruit
> > character. It could just be starting to develop and be going through a
> > dumb phase for perhaps 20 to 50 years before it emerges with great
> > richness, complex and intense dried fruit character, and butterscotch.
> > But again it may not.
>
> The big worry for me is the Sherry-like character, which we all
> independently recognized (it was hard to miss). That suggests premature
> oxidation, perhaps indicative of cork failure or a problem with the
> elevage. FWIW, I had a '96 Szepsy 6 putts with Ian Hoare in '01 and it
> was totally different in character from this wine (and much more
> enjoyable) with plenty of dried fruit and earthy character.
>
> > This sounds like the winner if you must drink Aszu at such an early
> > age these days. For me, I am only interested in a classic style of
> > Aszu. The youngest I am drinking now is about 35 years old. However
> > you have to go back to 1945 and earlier to find out what classic Aszu,
> > Aszu Eszencia, and Eszencia can be. The 1945 Eszencia perhaps is the
> > most recent great Eszencia that is classic and ready to drink. Also
> > some of the 1945 Aszu Eszencias and 5-6 P Aszu were great wines. When
> > Tokaji production was taken over by the state and restructured after
> > 1945, there was considerable decline, especially for the less rich
> > styles. However I have tasted a few 5-6 P Aszus and Aszu Eszencias
> > from that era that were very good, but not quite up to the best from
> > 1945 and earlier.
>
> A 35-year-old Tokaji would place it from 1972, squarely in the Communist
> era. Is it at all good? My impression is that nothing of quality was
> being made then. If not so, who was the producer? I know that Szepsy
> was working for the gov't collective, so perhaps he made something of value?

I mentioned some of the better wines from the communist era above.
Usually the producer is not mentioned on the bottles of state wine. I
have no idea if they blended all of the wine for a particular
bottling, or provided different blends of it for different markets.
The US importer in the 70s provided some for sale in the normal
distribution channels and sold some at their fine wine auctions. I
have no idea how much influence they had in what the Hungarian state
Tokaji authority sent them, if any. At a later date some of the best
of these wines reappeared at other auctions such as at the Chicago
Wine company - more expensive, but still very good value. I do know
that some of the very poor, cheap examples of Tokaji sold in this era
were not very nice. They often were sweet, had a generic sherry-like
character, and little else.

> <SNIP fascinating discussion of Eszencia>
>
> Thanks again. It's always interesting to hear about wines that I'll
> likely never get a chance to try.
>
> Mark Lipton

> Assuming that this is a serious question: the "puttonyos" (aka "putts")...

Yes, it was a serious question. I'd never heard the term before, and in
golf, "putt" is a light stroke on the green with a special club.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
>> Assuming that this is a serious question: the "puttonyos" (aka
>> "putts")...
>
> Yes, it was a serious question. I'd never heard the term before, and in
> golf, "putt" is a light stroke on the green with a special club.

Yes, I'm a semi-serious golfer (at least, I was until the birth of our
son 2+ years ago). I just wasn't sure if you were joking.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

> Yes, I'm a semi-serious golfer (at least, I was until the birth of our
> son 2+ years ago). I just wasn't sure if you were joking.

I was trying to be light-headed. I guess I succeeded, but not in the
way I intended. Now off to get light-headed the conventional way.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On May 29, 11:20 pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> Today you are lucky to find a top old classic
> Eszencia at all, and if it is in good condition, and sometimes not,
> the price likely will be extreme. Fortunately I bought some top Tokaji
> about 30 years ago when it could still be found with a little effort,
> and you did not have to be a millionaire to afford it.

I did find the 1889 Eszencia from Zimmermann Lipot for sale in the
small Tokay bottle that contains considerably less wine than a modern
bottle. It is called a half bottle, but it likely is a bit larger than
a modern half bottle. It is in the UK and can be yours for about $US
2600. Broadbent has notes for this wine in his first vintage wine
book, and tasted it in 1972. He rated it as 5 star. However he tasted
another bottle in 1974 that had no sediment and had a strong farmyard
bouquet. He thought it likely was an aszu eszencia. So if you win the
lottery, I think you would likely at least need to examine the bottle,
note the sediment, and read Broadbent's notes carefully. The
description by the seller is at
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/to...rring_site=WJO
..

Laws and labeling customs sometimes were more lax in the past, so you
have to be very careful. An Aszu Eszencia may not include the Aszu, or
mention it only in text somewhere else on a label with Eszencia in
bold letters at the top of the label. Likely some of the safest old
classic Eszencia to buy has a Berry Bros. label. They imported it into
the UK in the 1930s, and most of these wines have had good reviews by
Broadbent and others. I hate to think what the 1811 Eszencia described
by Broadbent would now cost, but it likely could not be found at all.