On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:48:09 GMT, Chris > wrote:

>I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was good. I'm
>thinking of converting to veginism. Do they make a vegitarian fried
>chicken?

They make fake chicken, and all that I've seen contain egg
whites. That means that instead of contributing to the lives of
and cds involved with broiler chickens, "ethical" veg*ns who
eat the stuff contribute to the lives of and cds involved with
hens kept in battery cages. The following, and I feel quite sure
other such products as well, contain egg whites:

Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
and Prosage Patties

Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties

Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties

Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets

dh@. wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:48:09 GMT, Chris > wrote:
>
>
>>I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was good. I'm
>>thinking of converting to veginism. Do they make a vegitarian fried
>>chicken?
>

My S.O granddaugher loves soy chicke'n nogets. Try them. They taste
great, but are not fried. They are a bit pricy. But health is cheaper
than getting sick. Fried foods are of course very bad for you
vegetarian or otherwise.

Try a packages, the child wont touch veggies, so that's how I sneak
veggies into her.


>
> They make fake chicken, and all that I've seen contain egg
> whites. That means that instead of contributing to the lives of
> and cds involved with broiler chickens, "ethical" veg*ns who
> eat the stuff contribute to the lives of and cds involved with
> hens kept in battery cages. The following, and I feel quite sure
> other such products as well, contain egg whites:
>
> Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
> and Prosage Patties
>
> Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties
>
> Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties
>
> Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets

Beach Runner wrote:
>>> I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was good. I'm
>>> thinking of converting to veginism. Do they make a vegitarian fried
>>> chicken?
>
> My S.O granddaugher loves soy chicke'n nogets.

Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
(found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
[Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
(3).
[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
[Ibid.]

“In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
[Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
grant M01 RR00073]

All above lifted from:
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsu pplements.com/articles/soyestr ogen.shtml

Additionally, see:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/ 185soy.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fu n/satter6.htm

No wonder you have a woman's disease...

<...>

dh@. wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:48:09 GMT, Chris > wrote:
>
>
>>I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was good. I'm
>>thinking of converting to veginism. Do they make a vegitarian fried
>>chicken?
>
>
> They make fake chicken, and all that I've seen contain egg
> whites. That means that instead of contributing to the lives of
> and cds involved with broiler chickens, "ethical" veg*ns who
> eat the stuff contribute to the lives of and cds involved with
> hens kept in battery cages. The following, and I feel quite sure
> other such products as well, contain egg whites:
>
> Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
> and Prosage Patties
>
> Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties

y the way, I was wrong. They do contain egg whites. Still a lot better
than fried chicken.

I'd be interested in a vegan source you find.
>
> Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties
>
> Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets

"Beach Runner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> dh@. wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:48:09 GMT, Chris > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was good.
>>>I'm thinking of converting to veginism. Do they make a
>>>vegitarian fried chicken?
>>
>
> My S.O granddaugher loves soy chicke'n nogets. Try them. They
> taste great, but are not fried. They are a bit pricy. But
> health is cheaper than getting sick. Fried foods are of course
> very bad for you vegetarian or otherwise.
>
> Try a packages, the child wont touch veggies, so that's how I
> sneak veggies into her.
========================
So, you'll rail about the supposed hormones in some beef, yet
feed them willy nilly to your granddaughter. You really should
put those so-called advanced degrees to some use. Maybe line a
bird-cage? They obviously haven't help you to critically analize
the propaganda sites you love to frequent.



>
>
>>
>> They make fake chicken, and all that I've seen contain egg
>> whites. That means that instead of contributing to the lives
>> of
>> and cds involved with broiler chickens, "ethical" veg*ns who
>> eat the stuff contribute to the lives of and cds involved with
>> hens kept in battery cages. The following, and I feel quite
>> sure
>> other such products as well, contain egg whites:
>>
>> Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
>> and Prosage Patties
>>
>> Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties
>>
>> Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties
>>
>> Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets
===============
So, you're not vegan be any stretch of the word, eh killer?
Tell me how many animals died to produce a pound of fake chicken.
Apparently, you have no care about that, eh hypocrite?


btw, where's your assignment on water totals?

rick wrote:
> "Beach Runner" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>
>>dh@. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:48:09 GMT, Chris > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was good.
>>>>I'm thinking of converting to veginism. Do they make a
>>>>vegitarian fried chicken?
>>>
>>My S.O granddaugher loves soy chicke'n nogets. Try them. They
>>taste great, but are not fried. They are a bit pricy. But
>>health is cheaper than getting sick. Fried foods are of course
>>very bad for you vegetarian or otherwise.
>>
>>Try a packages, the child wont touch veggies, so that's how I
>>sneak veggies into her.
>
> ========================
> So, you'll rail about the supposed hormones in some beef, yet
> feed them willy nilly to your granddaughter.

That jerk-off is going to give that little girl breast cancer.

Researchers agree that a biologic response to phytoestrogens in
infants and young children is likely and that a lack of data
hinders its characterization. Although Setchell doesn't believe
that worry about effects is justified, he agrees that there is a
need for more data: "[When] we've had so many infants raised on
soy formula and we haven't really seen these horrendous effects
that people keep saying these compounds cause, then there's
probably no reason for concern. However, I accept that the lack
of evidence is not evidence for the lack of effect."

In the meantime, Newbold and Rogan will continue to look for
evidence, one way or the other. "I think we just don't have
enough information," says Newbold. "I hope I'm wrong, but in
case I'm not, experimental animals are telling us this is
something to worry about."
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2002/110-6/niehsnews.html

And:

Soy formulas contain much higher amounts of phytoestrogens than
is seen in human breast milk. In addition, infants fed soy
formula have blood levels of phytoestrogens that are far greater
than normal levels of estrogen in infants. No studies have
examined the health effects of children eating
phytoestrogen-rich foods. Long-term studies that look at the
health benefits and risks of soy-based infant formulas and
eating phytoestrogen-rich foods as a child are needed.
http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Fact.../fs1.phyto.cfm

> You really should
> put those so-called advanced degrees to some use. Maybe line a
> bird-cage? They obviously haven't help you to critically analize
> the propaganda sites you love to frequent.

I weeded out the far-out/new-age websites. Many of them were much more
critical than the government and Cornell ones I found.

>>> They make fake chicken, and all that I've seen contain egg
>>>whites. That means that instead of contributing to the lives
>>>of
>>>and cds involved with broiler chickens, "ethical" veg*ns who
>>>eat the stuff contribute to the lives of and cds involved with
>>>hens kept in battery cages. The following, and I feel quite
>>>sure
>>>other such products as well, contain egg whites:
>>>
>>>Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
>>>and Prosage Patties
>>>
>>>Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties
>>>
>>>Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties
>>>
>>>Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets
>
> ===============
> So, you're not vegan be any stretch of the word, eh killer?
> Tell me how many animals died to produce a pound of fake chicken.

This same dunce suggested that meat uses up too many resources that
could be used to feed humans. Each pound of meat takes ~3-5 pounds of
grain. Let's consider a couple of popular meat substitutes to see how
the alternatives stack up to meat:

GLUTEN
Average wheat flour contains about 13% protein, and gluten
accounts for 80% of that. A pound of vital gluten, then, would
require over 9.5 pounds of flour. It would then have to be
hydrated if it were purchased already processed. Much of the
weight of seitan is going to be water, but one uses a tremendous
amount of water when washing out the starch to make seitan on
one's own. No matter how you cut it, it's wasteful of grain and
water resources and requires more water and grain per pound than
a turkey would.

See also:
http://tinyurl.com/crax7
http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/mar99/import.htm
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...7736.Bc.r.html

TOFU
Tofu is mostly water. According to the following article, one pound of
soybeans should yield 3.5-4 pounds of tofu. The recipe itself yields
22-26 ounces depending how much water is pressed out (soft vs firm). The
weight of the water input is >13x the weight of the soybeans -- 11 cups
of water is just over 2.6 liters, or 5.72 pounds of water by weight. A
cup of soybeans weighs seven ounces -- less than 1/2 pound.

Mother Earth News Recipe:
http://tinyurl.com/8kl83

soybean volume:weight conversion:
http://www.fareshare.net/conversions...to-weight.html
------

Gluten and TVP (which, like tofu, is a soy protein isolate) are the main
ingredients in many fake meat products. Quorn is different because it's
fungus-based but some of their products also contain wheat gluten.

> Apparently, you have no care about that, eh hypocrite?

Veganism is a meaningless gesture, so he doesn't care.

> btw, where's your assignment on water totals?

Don't hold your breath waiting for that scatterbrained dork to do the
math of the activist claims he mindlessly parrots.

usual suspect wrote:
> rick wrote:
>
>> "Beach Runner" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>
>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:48:09 GMT, Chris > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was good. I'm
>>>>> thinking of converting to veginism. Do they make a vegitarian
>>>>> fried chicken?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> My S.O granddaugher loves soy chicke'n nogets. Try them. They taste
>>> great, but are not fried. They are a bit pricy. But health is
>>> cheaper than getting sick. Fried foods are of course very bad for
>>> you vegetarian or otherwise.
>>>
>>> Try a packages, the child wont touch veggies, so that's how I sneak
>>> veggies into her.
>>
>>
>> ========================
>> So, you'll rail about the supposed hormones in some beef, yet feed
>> them willy nilly to your granddaughter.
>
>
> That jerk-off is going to give that little girl breast cancer.
>
> Researchers agree that a biologic response to phytoestrogens in
> infants and young children is likely and that a lack of data
> hinders its characterization. Although Setchell doesn't believe
> that worry about effects is justified, he agrees that there is a
> need for more data: "[When] we've had so many infants raised on
> soy formula and we haven't really seen these horrendous effects
> that people keep saying these compounds cause, then there's
> probably no reason for concern. However, I accept that the lack
> of evidence is not evidence for the lack of effect."
>
> In the meantime, Newbold and Rogan will continue to look for
> evidence, one way or the other. "I think we just don't have
> enough information," says Newbold. "I hope I'm wrong, but in
> case I'm not, experimental animals are telling us this is
> something to worry about."
> http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2002/110-6/niehsnews.html
>
> And:
>
> Soy formulas contain much higher amounts of phytoestrogens than
> is seen in human breast milk. In addition, infants fed soy
> formula have blood levels of phytoestrogens that are far greater
> than normal levels of estrogen in infants. No studies have
> examined the health effects of children eating
> phytoestrogen-rich foods. Long-term studies that look at the
> health benefits and risks of soy-based infant formulas and
> eating phytoestrogen-rich foods as a child are needed.
> http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Fact.../fs1.phyto.cfm
>
>> You really should put those so-called advanced degrees to some use.
>> Maybe line a bird-cage? They obviously haven't help you to critically
>> analize the propaganda sites you love to frequent.
>
>
> I weeded out the far-out/new-age websites. Many of them were much more
> critical than the government and Cornell ones I found.
>
>>>> They make fake chicken, and all that I've seen contain egg
>>>> whites. That means that instead of contributing to the lives of
>>>> and cds involved with broiler chickens, "ethical" veg*ns who eat the
>>>> stuff contribute to the lives of and cds involved with
>>>> hens kept in battery cages. The following, and I feel quite sure
>>>> other such products as well, contain egg whites:
>>>>
>>>> Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
>>>> and Prosage Patties
>>>>
>>>> Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties
>>>>
>>>> Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties
>>>>
>>>> Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets
>>
>>
>> ===============
>> So, you're not vegan be any stretch of the word, eh killer? Tell me
>> how many animals died to produce a pound of fake chicken.
>
>
> This same dunce suggested that meat uses up too many resources that
> could be used to feed humans. Each pound of meat takes ~3-5 pounds of
> grain. Let's consider a couple of popular meat substitutes to see how
> the alternatives stack up to meat:
>
> GLUTEN
> Average wheat flour contains about 13% protein, and gluten
> accounts for 80% of that. A pound of vital gluten, then, would
> require over 9.5 pounds of flour. It would then have to be
> hydrated if it were purchased already processed. Much of the
> weight of seitan is going to be water, but one uses a tremendous
> amount of water when washing out the starch to make seitan on
> one's own. No matter how you cut it, it's wasteful of grain and
> water resources and requires more water and grain per pound than
> a turkey would.
>
> See also:
> http://tinyurl.com/crax7
> http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/mar99/import.htm
> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...7736.Bc.r.html
>
> TOFU
> Tofu is mostly water. According to the following article, one pound of
> soybeans should yield 3.5-4 pounds of tofu. The recipe itself yields
> 22-26 ounces depending how much water is pressed out (soft vs firm). The
> weight of the water input is >13x the weight of the soybeans -- 11 cups
> of water is just over 2.6 liters, or 5.72 pounds of water by weight. A
> cup of soybeans weighs seven ounces -- less than 1/2 pound.
>
> Mother Earth News Recipe:
> http://tinyurl.com/8kl83
>
> soybean volume:weight conversion:
> http://www.fareshare.net/conversions...to-weight.html
> ------
>
> Gluten and TVP (which, like tofu, is a soy protein isolate) are the main
> ingredients in many fake meat products. Quorn is different because it's
> fungus-based but some of their products also contain wheat gluten.
>
>> Apparently, you have no care about that, eh hypocrite?
>
>
> Veganism is a meaningless gesture, so he doesn't care.
>
>> btw, where's your assignment on water totals?
>
>
> Don't hold your breath waiting for that scatterbrained dork to do the
> math of the activist claims he mindlessly parrots.
Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
dosages.

"Beach Runner" > wrote
> Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
> indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
> dosages.

You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?

Dutch wrote:
> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>
>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>dosages.
>
>
> You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>
>

I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
indications.

Scatterbrains wrote:
<...>
>>>> My S.O granddaugher loves soy chicke'n nogets. Try them. They taste
>>>> great, but are not fried. They are a bit pricy. But health is
>>>> cheaper than getting sick. Fried foods are of course very bad for
>>>> you vegetarian or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Try a packages, the child wont touch veggies, so that's how I sneak
>>>> veggies into her.
>>>
>>> ========================
>>> So, you'll rail about the supposed hormones in some beef, yet feed
>>> them willy nilly to your granddaughter.
>>
>> That jerk-off is going to give that little girl breast cancer.
>>
>> Researchers agree that a biologic response to phytoestrogens in
>> infants and young children is likely and that a lack of data
>> hinders its characterization. Although Setchell doesn't believe
>> that worry about effects is justified, he agrees that there is a
>> need for more data: "[When] we've had so many infants raised on
>> soy formula and we haven't really seen these horrendous effects
>> that people keep saying these compounds cause, then there's
>> probably no reason for concern. However, I accept that the lack
>> of evidence is not evidence for the lack of effect."
>>
>> In the meantime, Newbold and Rogan will continue to look for
>> evidence, one way or the other. "I think we just don't have
>> enough information," says Newbold. "I hope I'm wrong, but in
>> case I'm not, experimental animals are telling us this is
>> something to worry about."
>> http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2002/110-6/niehsnews.html
>>
>> And:
>>
>> Soy formulas contain much higher amounts of phytoestrogens than
>> is seen in human breast milk. In addition, infants fed soy
>> formula have blood levels of phytoestrogens that are far greater
>> than normal levels of estrogen in infants. No studies have
>> examined the health effects of children eating
>> phytoestrogen-rich foods. Long-term studies that look at the
>> health benefits and risks of soy-based infant formulas and
>> eating phytoestrogen-rich foods as a child are needed.
>> http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Fact.../fs1.phyto.cfm
<...>
>> This same dunce suggested that meat uses up too many resources that
>> could be used to feed humans. Each pound of meat takes ~3-5 pounds of
>> grain. Let's consider a couple of popular meat substitutes to see how
>> the alternatives stack up to meat:
>>
>> GLUTEN
>> Average wheat flour contains about 13% protein, and gluten
>> accounts for 80% of that. A pound of vital gluten, then, would
>> require over 9.5 pounds of flour. It would then have to be
>> hydrated if it were purchased already processed. Much of the
>> weight of seitan is going to be water, but one uses a tremendous
>> amount of water when washing out the starch to make seitan on
>> one's own. No matter how you cut it, it's wasteful of grain and
>> water resources and requires more water and grain per pound than
>> a turkey would.
>>
>> See also:
>> http://tinyurl.com/crax7
>> http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/mar99/import.htm
>> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...7736.Bc.r.html
>>
>> TOFU
>> Tofu is mostly water. According to the following article, one pound of
>> soybeans should yield 3.5-4 pounds of tofu. The recipe itself yields
>> 22-26 ounces depending how much water is pressed out (soft vs firm). The
>> weight of the water input is >13x the weight of the soybeans -- 11 cups
>> of water is just over 2.6 liters, or 5.72 pounds of water by weight. A
>> cup of soybeans weighs seven ounces -- less than 1/2 pound.
>>
>> Mother Earth News Recipe:
>> http://tinyurl.com/8kl83
>>
>> soybean volume:weight conversion:
>> http://www.fareshare.net/conversions...to-weight.html
>> ------
>>
>> Gluten and TVP (which, like tofu, is a soy protein isolate) are the
>> main ingredients in many fake meat products. Quorn is different
>> because it's fungus-based but some of their products also contain
>> wheat gluten.
<...>
> Talk about junk science.

Something you know an awful lot about...

> There are no human studies of any kind

That's the issue at hand, and why researchers like Newbold and Rogan are
hard at work to learn the long-term implications of subjecting young
humans to soy-based estrogens.

"Beach Runner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>
>>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>>dosages.
>>
>>
>> You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>
> I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
> indications.

Interesting.. there are references to human studies in most of these links..

http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/
and
http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html
and
http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html
and
http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm
and
http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm
and
http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html
and
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-update-wi2004.htm
and
http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
and
http://www.snopes.com/toxins/soya.asp

Dutch wrote:
> "Beach Runner" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>
>>Dutch wrote:
>>
>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>>>dosages.
>>>
>>>
>>>You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>>
>>I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
>>indications.
>
>
> Interesting.. there are references to human studies in most of these links..
>
> http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/
Pop science reporting. Thoughtful
> and
> http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html
Pop science reporting Also believable
> and
> http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html
Solid statistics
> and
> http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm
Good science, anecdotal corroboration
> and
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm
Solid statistics
> and
> http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html
Provocative
> and
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-update-wi2004.htm
Seems authoritative
> and
> http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
Plausible
> and
> http://www.snopes.com/toxins/soya.asp
"Status: Undetermined."

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Jerry Avins" > wrote
> Dutch wrote:
>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>
>>>Dutch wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>>>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>>>>dosages.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>>>
>>>I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
>>>indications.
>>
>>
>> Interesting.. there are references to human studies in most of these
>> links..
>>
>> http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/
> Pop science reporting. Thoughtful
>> and
>> http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html
> Pop science reporting Also believable
>> and
>> http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html
> Solid statistics
>> and
>> http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm
> Good science, anecdotal corroboration
>> and
>> http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm
> Solid statistics
>> and
>> http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html
> Provocative
>> and
>> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-update-wi2004.htm
> Seems authoritative
>> and
>> http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
> Plausible
>> and
>> http://www.snopes.com/toxins/soya.asp
> "Status: Undetermined."

So would you agree that based on the easily
available information it would seem to be an
irrational response to simply dismiss out of
hand health concerns about soy? This leads
to my original question to Beach Runner,
what kind of bias would cause a person to
do so. Perhaps such a bias ought to be put
through a quality control process.

"Beach Runner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> usual suspect wrote:
>> rick wrote:
>>
>>> "Beach Runner" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>
>>>>
>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:48:09 GMT, Chris > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I ate some peas and some watermelon last night. It was
>>>>>> good. I'm thinking of converting to veginism. Do they
>>>>>> make a vegitarian fried chicken?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> My S.O granddaugher loves soy chicke'n nogets. Try them.
>>>> They taste great, but are not fried. They are a bit pricy.
>>>> But health is cheaper than getting sick. Fried foods are of
>>>> course very bad for you vegetarian or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Try a packages, the child wont touch veggies, so that's how
>>>> I sneak veggies into her.
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================
>>> So, you'll rail about the supposed hormones in some beef, yet
>>> feed them willy nilly to your granddaughter.
>>
>>
>> That jerk-off is going to give that little girl breast cancer.
>>
>> Researchers agree that a biologic response to
>> phytoestrogens in
>> infants and young children is likely and that a lack of
>> data
>> hinders its characterization. Although Setchell doesn't
>> believe
>> that worry about effects is justified, he agrees that
>> there is a
>> need for more data: "[When] we've had so many infants
>> raised on
>> soy formula and we haven't really seen these horrendous
>> effects
>> that people keep saying these compounds cause, then
>> there's
>> probably no reason for concern. However, I accept that the
>> lack
>> of evidence is not evidence for the lack of effect."
>>
>> In the meantime, Newbold and Rogan will continue to look
>> for
>> evidence, one way or the other. "I think we just don't
>> have
>> enough information," says Newbold. "I hope I'm wrong, but
>> in
>> case I'm not, experimental animals are telling us this is
>> something to worry about."
>> http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2002/110-6/niehsnews.html
>>
>> And:
>>
>> Soy formulas contain much higher amounts of phytoestrogens
>> than
>> is seen in human breast milk. In addition, infants fed soy
>> formula have blood levels of phytoestrogens that are far
>> greater
>> than normal levels of estrogen in infants. No studies have
>> examined the health effects of children eating
>> phytoestrogen-rich foods. Long-term studies that look at
>> the
>> health benefits and risks of soy-based infant formulas and
>> eating phytoestrogen-rich foods as a child are needed.
>>
>> http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Fact.../fs1.phyto.cfm
>>
>>> You really should put those so-called advanced degrees to
>>> some use. Maybe line a bird-cage? They obviously haven't
>>> help you to critically analize the propaganda sites you love
>>> to frequent.
>>
>>
>> I weeded out the far-out/new-age websites. Many of them were
>> much more critical than the government and Cornell ones I
>> found.
>>
>>>>> They make fake chicken, and all that I've seen contain
>>>>> egg
>>>>> whites. That means that instead of contributing to the
>>>>> lives of
>>>>> and cds involved with broiler chickens, "ethical" veg*ns
>>>>> who eat the stuff contribute to the lives of and cds
>>>>> involved with
>>>>> hens kept in battery cages. The following, and I feel quite
>>>>> sure
>>>>> other such products as well, contain egg whites:
>>>>>
>>>>> Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot
>>>>> Dogs
>>>>> and Prosage Patties
>>>>>
>>>>> Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties
>>>>>
>>>>> Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties
>>>>>
>>>>> Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets
>>>
>>>
>>> ===============
>>> So, you're not vegan be any stretch of the word, eh killer?
>>> Tell me how many animals died to produce a pound of fake
>>> chicken.
>>
>>
>> This same dunce suggested that meat uses up too many resources
>> that could be used to feed humans. Each pound of meat takes
>> ~3-5 pounds of grain. Let's consider a couple of popular meat
>> substitutes to see how the alternatives stack up to meat:
>>
>> GLUTEN
>> Average wheat flour contains about 13% protein, and gluten
>> accounts for 80% of that. A pound of vital gluten, then,
>> would
>> require over 9.5 pounds of flour. It would then have to be
>> hydrated if it were purchased already processed. Much of
>> the
>> weight of seitan is going to be water, but one uses a
>> tremendous
>> amount of water when washing out the starch to make seitan
>> on
>> one's own. No matter how you cut it, it's wasteful of
>> grain and
>> water resources and requires more water and grain per
>> pound than
>> a turkey would.
>>
>> See also:
>> http://tinyurl.com/crax7
>> http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/mar99/import.htm
>> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...7736.Bc.r.html
>>
>> TOFU
>> Tofu is mostly water. According to the following article, one
>> pound of
>> soybeans should yield 3.5-4 pounds of tofu. The recipe itself
>> yields
>> 22-26 ounces depending how much water is pressed out (soft vs
>> firm). The
>> weight of the water input is >13x the weight of the
>> soybeans -- 11 cups
>> of water is just over 2.6 liters, or 5.72 pounds of water by
>> weight. A
>> cup of soybeans weighs seven ounces -- less than 1/2 pound.
>>
>> Mother Earth News Recipe:
>> http://tinyurl.com/8kl83
>>
>> soybean volume:weight conversion:
>> http://www.fareshare.net/conversions...to-weight.html
>> ------
>>
>> Gluten and TVP (which, like tofu, is a soy protein isolate)
>> are the main ingredients in many fake meat products. Quorn is
>> different because it's fungus-based but some of their products
>> also contain wheat gluten.
>>
>>> Apparently, you have no care about that, eh hypocrite?
>>
>>
>> Veganism is a meaningless gesture, so he doesn't care.
>>
>>> btw, where's your assignment on water totals?
>>
>>
>> Don't hold your breath waiting for that scatterbrained dork to
>> do the math of the activist claims he mindlessly parrots.
> Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind
> that indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies
> with massive dosages.
================
And junk science is something you know all about, right fool?
Since that is all you have posted since you got here.
Advanced degrees my arse.....

You can't even think or yourself. If it's not written down
somewhere for you in a propaganda scree, you don't have anything.
Proof is that you continue to ignore your lys and ignorance about
water usage...
Keep up the good work proving that veganism is about ignorance
and propaganda, hypocrite.

Dutch wrote:

> "Beach Runner" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>
>>Dutch wrote:
>>
>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>>>dosages.
>>>
>>>
>>>You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>>
>>I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
>>indications.
>
>
> Interesting.. there are references to human studies in most of these links..
>
> http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/

It's not a controlled study,
> and
> http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html
mostly based on birds
> and
> http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html

says
Mark Messina, a soy foods expert and former researcher with the Diet and
Cancer Branch of the National Cancer Institute, told the scientists,
"It's simply not possible as yet to draw any conclusions about soy
consumption and cancer prevention, but further research is certainly
warranted."
> and
> http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm
> and

an interesting yet hardly scientific study
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm
> and
scientists are only just beginning to research and understand the
harmful long-term effects that eating large quantities of soy can have
on the human body. As Fallon and Enig write: 'The industry has known for
years that soy contains many toxins. At first they told the public that
the toxins were removed by processing. Then they claimed that these
substances were beneficial.' Sounds like there's a big battle ahead.

But then is hardly the AMA or a recognized publication
> http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html
The Weston A. Price Foundation is exploring the causal connection
between soy and various serious conditions—see list below. We have also
sought out competent attorneys in the United States and elsewhere, who
may develop medical evidence in a number of these cases to pursue
damages or other appropriate remedies against the manufacturers and
sellers of soy products.

Still nothing conclusive
> and
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-update-wi2004.htm
http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
claims it's facts but simply states some theories
> and
> http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
ar pig studies
> and
> http://www.snopes.com/toxins/soya.asp
>
>
An anecdotal story.

Thank you for your research. Well worth watching, and certainly should
give one concern for watching over consumption of soy as a food.

However, as an anecdotal study as a 50 year of man and 30 years of
extensive soy usage, I had an MRI of my brain and they found my brain
unusually healthy, without the usual shrinkage's for a man my age. Why
the study, they found something in my brother while researching his
osteoporosis. My neurologist said he'd never seen such a healthy brain
in a 50 year old man. No shrinking brain in a tofu eating man!

The jury is out but your reports are interesting.

It goes a long way towards a balanced diet to include other legumes and
sources of protein for vegans, but is hardly conclusive.

Thank you.

Dutch wrote:

> "Jerry Avins" > wrote
>
>>Dutch wrote:
>>
>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>
>>>>Dutch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>>>>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>>>>>dosages.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>>>>
>>>>I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
>>>>indications.
>>>
>>>
>>>Interesting.. there are references to human studies in most of these
>>>links..
>>>
>>>http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/
>>
>>Pop science reporting. Thoughtful
>>
>>>and
>>>http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html
>>
>>Pop science reporting Also believable
>>
>>>and
>>>http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html
>>
>>Solid statistics
>>
>>>and
>>>http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm
>>
>>Good science, anecdotal corroboration
>>
>>>and
>>>http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm
>>
>>Solid statistics
>>
>>>and
>>>http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html
>>
>>Provocative
>>
>>>and
>>>http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-update-wi2004.htm
>>
>>Seems authoritative
>>
>>>and
>>>http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
>>
>>Plausible
>>
>>>and
>>>http://www.snopes.com/toxins/soya.asp
>>
>>"Status: Undetermined."
>
>
> So would you agree that based on the easily
> available information it would seem to be an
> irrational response to simply dismiss out of
> hand health concerns about soy? This leads
> to my original question to Beach Runner,
> what kind of bias would cause a person to
> do so. Perhaps such a bias ought to be put
> through a quality control process.
>

On the other hand, we do know that extensive use of meat will lead to
various medical disorders. You risk mad cow disease, "which supposedly
didn't exist but we are still finding cattle in the US and Britain),
and my family history suggests avoiding animal products.


It also does not address the scientific studies of increasingly
antibiotic resistance in animal production, nor the
morality of treating animals in such horrendous ways.

Please read Dr. Greger's report for some leading research on the dangers
of antibiotic resistance growing in the world from meat production.
>

Beach Runner wrote:

...

>> So would you agree that based on the easily
>> available information it would seem to be an
>> irrational response to simply dismiss out of
>> hand health concerns about soy? This leads
>> to my original question to Beach Runner,
>> what kind of bias would cause a person to
>> do so. Perhaps such a bias ought to be put
>> through a quality control process.

It seems to me that there is cause for caution. I will continue to have
the occasional bowl of hot-and-sour soup.

> On the other hand, we do know that extensive use of meat will lead to
> various medical disorders. You risk mad cow disease, "which supposedly
> didn't exist but we are still finding cattle in the US and Britain),
> and my family history suggests avoiding animal products.

I was advised by a doctor to eat red meat very sparingly for a while in
the hope of mitigating a colon condition. Not only did the condition
improve, so did my gout. I never went back.

> It also does not address the scientific studies of increasingly
> antibiotic resistance in animal production, nor the
> morality of treating animals in such horrendous ways.

The practice should be illegal. It wouldn't be necessary if cattle
weren't held in stockyards a foot deep in dung. It is illegal in
Denmark. Surprisingly, the cost of bringing a steer to market has gone
down there.

> Please read Dr. Greger's report for some leading research on the dangers
> of antibiotic resistance growing in the world from meat production.

No one should need a report. The harm is obvious to all who think.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Beach Runner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>
>> "Jerry Avins" > wrote
>>
>>>Dutch wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>>Dutch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>>>>>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>>>>>>dosages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>>>>>
>>>>>I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
>>>>>indications.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Interesting.. there are references to human studies in most of these
>>>>links..
>>>>
>>>>http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/
>>>
>>>Pop science reporting. Thoughtful
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html
>>>
>>>Pop science reporting Also believable
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html
>>>
>>>Solid statistics
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm
>>>
>>>Good science, anecdotal corroboration
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm
>>>
>>>Solid statistics
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html
>>>
>>>Provocative
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-update-wi2004.htm
>>>
>>>Seems authoritative
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
>>>
>>>Plausible
>>>
>>>>and
>>>>http://www.snopes.com/toxins/soya.asp
>>>
>>>"Status: Undetermined."
>>
>>
>> So would you agree that based on the easily
>> available information it would seem to be an
>> irrational response to simply dismiss out of
>> hand health concerns about soy? This leads
>> to my original question to Beach Runner,
>> what kind of bias would cause a person to
>> do so. Perhaps such a bias ought to be put
>> through a quality control process.
>
> On the other hand, we do know that extensive use of meat will lead to
> various medical disorders. You risk mad cow disease, "which supposedly
> didn't exist but we are still finding cattle in the US and Britain),

The instances of CJD in humans is so low as to
be statisically insignficant, relative to the hype.

> and my family history suggests avoiding animal products.
>
> It also does not address the scientific studies of increasingly antibiotic
> resistance in animal production,

Nor the dangers of 'cides in plant products..

> nor the
> morality of treating animals in such horrendous ways.

Nor the collateral harm done to countless animals in
crop production..

> Please read Dr. Greger's report for some leading research on the dangers
> of antibiotic resistance growing in the world from meat production.

I think it would be equally foolish to dismiss the risks
of meat consumption. The challenge for all of us is to
maintain a level perspective.

"Beach Runner" > wrote in message
.. .
>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>
>> "Beach Runner" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>
>>>Dutch wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Talk about junk science. There are no human studies of any kind that
>>>>>indicate a problem with soy. There have been rat studies with massive
>>>>>dosages.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You sound pretty certain about that, what's your bias?
>>>
>>>I looked into the allegations. To see if I should stop soy. No human
>>>indications.
>>
>>
>> Interesting.. there are references to human studies in most of these
>> links..
>>
>> http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/
>
> It's not a controlled study,
>> and
>> http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html
> mostly based on birds
>> and
>> http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html
>
> says
> Mark Messina, a soy foods expert and former researcher with the Diet and
> Cancer Branch of the National Cancer Institute, told the scientists, "It's
> simply not possible as yet to draw any conclusions about soy consumption
> and cancer prevention, but further research is certainly warranted."
>> and
>> http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm
>> and
>
> an interesting yet hardly scientific study
>> http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm
>> and
> scientists are only just beginning to research and understand the harmful
> long-term effects that eating large quantities of soy can have on the
> human body. As Fallon and Enig write: 'The industry has known for years
> that soy contains many toxins. At first they told the public that the
> toxins were removed by processing. Then they claimed that these substances
> were beneficial.' Sounds like there's a big battle ahead.
>
> But then is hardly the AMA or a recognized publication
>> http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html
> The Weston A. Price Foundation is exploring the causal connection between
> soy and various serious conditions—see list below. We have also sought out
> competent attorneys in the United States and elsewhere, who may develop
> medical evidence in a number of these cases to pursue damages or other
> appropriate remedies against the manufacturers and sellers of soy
> products.
>
> Still nothing conclusive
>> and
>> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-update-wi2004.htm
> http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
> claims it's facts but simply states some theories
>> and
>> http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/soyfacts.html
> ar pig studies
>> and
>> http://www.snopes.com/toxins/soya.asp
>>
>>
> An anecdotal story.
>
> Thank you for your research.

Two minutes using Google hardly ranks as research.

> Well worth watching, and certainly should give one concern for watching
> over consumption of soy as a food.

Exacly my point.

> However, as an anecdotal study as a 50 year of man and 30 years of
> extensive soy usage, I had an MRI of my brain and they found my brain
> unusually healthy, without the usual shrinkage's for a man my age. Why the
> study, they found something in my brother while researching his
> osteoporosis. My neurologist said he'd never seen such a healthy brain in
> a 50 year old man. No shrinking brain in a tofu eating man!

Anecdotal.

> The jury is out but your reports are interesting.
>
> It goes a long way towards a balanced diet to include other legumes and
> sources of protein for vegans, but is hardly conclusive.

Eat what you like, but in my view *total* avoidance of
animal products does not promote ideal health by any
objective measure. The relative good health of veg*ns
has more to do with comparison with typical western
diets laden with processed foods and trans-fats. The
best diets in the world are based on fresh produce but
include soy, whole grains, dairy, as well as fish and chicken
in modest proportions.

Dutch wrote:

...

> Eat what you like, but in my view *total* avoidance of
> animal products does not promote ideal health by any
> objective measure. The relative good health of veg*ns
> has more to do with comparison with typical western
> diets laden with processed foods and trans-fats. The
> best diets in the world are based on fresh produce but
> include soy, whole grains, dairy, as well as fish and chicken
> in modest proportions.

Southwestern Native Americans for whom corn (maize) was a major portion
of diet learned to treat it with strong alkali, thereby creating a
complete protein. The eastern population, which also raised beans,
rarely did that.

Oriental populations that use a lot of soy learned to ferment it in
various ways, thereby reducing its toxicity. Western arrogance has led
us to claim that fresh soy beans retain more vitamins, and so promote
their consumption; toxins, uptake inhibitors, pseudo hormones, and all.

A Pacific island people who grew white potatoes. Western nutritionists
convinced them not to peel the potatoes as a way to improve their
nutrition. Twenty years later, there was what can only be called an
epidemic of colon cancer.

Manioc is an important source of starch for many populations. It is
prepared by shredding the root, squeezing out and discarding the juice,
soaking the pulp, and repeating the process several times. This gets rid
of just about all the vitamins and much of the mineral content. It also
gets rid of the lethal level of cyanide.

To know the best way to use a food, see how it is used among those
populations that have used it for long times. Deviate with caution.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Beach Runner wrote:
<...>
> On the other hand, we do know that extensive use of meat will lead to
> various medical disorders.

And we likewise know that the moderate consumption of meat, particularly
lean cuts, won't lead to any such disorders.

> You risk mad cow disease,

Not related to "extensive use of meat" [sic]. BSE affects cattle, not
humans. The human TSE variant believed to come from infected meat is
vCJD. It's believed that eating infected meat -- not lots of meat -- is
to blame. Nitwit.

<...>

Jerry Avins wrote:
<...>
> Oriental populations that use a lot of soy learned to ferment it in
> various ways, thereby reducing its toxicity. Western arrogance

You self-loathing liberals can't get this straight. It's not arrogance
that leads Westerners to assume that because a little of something in
one form might be beneficial that a lot of it in all forms is even
better. That's *ignorance*.

usual suspect wrote:
> Beach Runner wrote:
> <...>
>
>> On the other hand, we do know that extensive use of meat will lead to
>> various medical disorders.
>
>
> And we likewise know that the moderate consumption of meat, particularly
> lean cuts, won't lead to any such disorders.
>
>> You risk mad cow disease,
>
>
> Not related to "extensive use of meat" [sic]. BSE affects cattle, not
> humans. The human TSE variant believed to come from infected meat is
> vCJD. It's believed that eating infected meat -- not lots of meat -- is
> to blame. Nitwit.
>
> <...>

What's in a name? it's the same infectious agent, and it's contagious.
If you eat no meat, you run no risk. The more cows you sample, the more
likely one of them will be infected. Commercial chopped meat usually has
meat from several dozen cows in a one-pound package. On the rare
occasions that I want a hamburger, I grind my own from a single hunk.

Next you're going to tell me that the few BSE cows we've had were all
found. All the ones we found were downers and, wouldn't have been found
otherwise. Not all BSE cows are downers. Who's the nitwit?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

usual suspect wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
> <...>
>
>> Oriental populations that use a lot of soy learned to ferment it in
>> various ways, thereby reducing its toxicity. Western arrogance
>
>
> You self-loathing liberals can't get this straight. It's not arrogance
> that leads Westerners to assume that because a little of something in
> one form might be beneficial that a lot of it in all forms is even
> better. That's *ignorance*.

Those dispensers of benefits killed several hundred Congolese by feeding
them toxic peanuts. Everybody shrugged. Later, when farmers lost several
hundred turkeys that had been fed peanuts -- money was involved -- they
looked into the matter and discovered aflatoxin.

Thay made intestinal cancer common in the Trobriand Islands by
"teaching" the islanders not to peel their stored-in-sunlight potatoes.

Who was ignorant?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:
>> <...>
>>
>>> On the other hand, we do know that extensive use of meat will lead to
>>> various medical disorders.
>>
>>
>>
>> And we likewise know that the moderate consumption of meat,
>> particularly lean cuts, won't lead to any such disorders.
>>
>>> You risk mad cow disease,
>>
>>
>>
>> Not related to "extensive use of meat" [sic]. BSE affects cattle, not
>> humans. The human TSE variant believed to come from infected meat is
>> vCJD. It's believed that eating infected meat -- not lots of meat --
>> is to blame. Nitwit.
>>
>> <...>
>
>
> What's in a name?

Ask scientists.

> it's the same infectious agent,

Actually it's not yet established, but believed to be so.

> and it's contagious.

Ipse dixit. It's not yet known if there are genetic issues which make
some people more prone to vCJD -- or normal CJD -- than others. Why do
only some members of households who presumably eat the same meat in the
same dishes contract (v)CJD and others not?

> If you eat no meat, you run no risk.

Ipse dixit. Some TSEs, including the normal form of CJD, appear
spontaneously. As well, some vegetarians have contracted and died from vCJD.

> The more cows you sample, the more
> likely one of them will be infected.

Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s, the
predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
backpedalling in their predictions.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...610802,00.html
Etc.

> Commercial chopped meat usually has
> meat from several dozen cows in a one-pound package. On the rare
> occasions that I want a hamburger, I grind my own from a single hunk.

The "problem" with commercially-prepared mince/hamburger is that it was
mechanically-separated and likely to contain tissues from spinal cord,
brain, etc., which is believed to increase the odds of vCJD
transmission. Grinding your own has other benefits -- for example, you
can select leaner cuts.

> Next you're going to tell me that the few BSE cows we've had were all
> found.

Strawman, and you're a poor excuse of a psychic. The problem in the UK
has been overblown, and the only reported case of vCJD in the United
States involved a British citizen in Florida whom it's believed was
infected while she lived in the UK. You're still the nitwit here.

Jerry Avins wrote:
>>> Oriental populations that use a lot of soy learned to ferment it in
>>> various ways, thereby reducing its toxicity. Western arrogance
>>
>> You self-loathing liberals can't get this straight. It's not arrogance
>> that leads Westerners to assume that because a little of something in
>> one form might be beneficial that a lot of it in all forms is even
>> better. That's *ignorance*.
>
> Those dispensers of benefits

Another example of your liberal self-loathing.

usual suspect wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:

...

>> The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>
>
> Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
> while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s, the
> predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
> backpedalling in their predictions.

It assumed nothing about numbers. If there is the possibility that one
cow is infected, the more cows you eat of, the more likely you are to
become infected.

The odds of contracting an STD from one sexual encounter is relatively
small. Do you doubt that the risk increases with the number of partners?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:
>>> The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>>
>> Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
>> while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s,
>> the predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
>> backpedalling in their predictions.
>
> It assumed nothing about numbers.

Yes, it does. How many cattle have been shown to be BSE+? How many meals
of beef are consumed daily by people in just the US? The risk of vCJD
from BSE is so miniscule that it deserves no consideration compared to,
say, being struck by lightning or being in an auto crash or acquiring
some form of cancer.

> If there is the possibility that one
> cow is infected, the more cows you eat of, the more likely you are to
> become infected.

Ipse dixit. You're assuming not only that one is infected but that it
makes it into the human food supply. In the two (possibly three)
instances of BSE+ cattle in the US, no meat from those animals entered
ANY food supply.

> The odds of contracting an STD

Is a much different issue and you're trying to change the subject.

"Jerry Avins" > wrote
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
> ...
>
>>> The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>>
>>
>> Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and while
>> that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s, the
>> predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
>> backpedalling in their predictions.
>
> It assumed nothing about numbers. If there is the possibility that one cow
> is infected, the more cows you eat of, the more likely you are to become
> infected.
>
> The odds of contracting an STD from one sexual encounter is relatively
> small. Do you doubt that the risk increases with the number of partners?

Of course, the question is, what is a rational response to risk?

One child in 10,000 is assaulted in the schoolyard, is it rational
to remove my children from school?

BSE is primarily a political/economic issue, not a reason to
radically alter one's diet.

usual suspect wrote:

>>> Not related to "extensive use of meat" [sic]. BSE affects cattle, not
>>> humans. The human TSE variant believed to come from infected meat is
>>> vCJD. It's believed that eating infected meat -- not lots of meat --
>>> is to blame. Nitwit.
>>>
Yes another term is used for people, vCJD, but directly related to
eating meat. It makes no difference. It's considered Mad Cow Desease.

> Ipse dixit. It's not yet known if there are genetic issues which make
> some people more prone to vCJD -- or normal CJD -- than others. Why do
> only some members of households who presumably eat the same meat in the
> same dishes contract (v)CJD and others not?
>

Good question. There was a lot of canobolism in human's past, so there
is some resistance factor. Obviously not comple.
>> If you eat no meat, you run no risk.
>
>
>> The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>
Obviously, and hamburgers have the largest variety.
>
> Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
> while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s, the
> predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
> backpedalling in their predictions.
>

The dsease has a long period of time till it shows itself.
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...610802,00.html
> Etc.
>
And there are new cases.
>> Commercial chopped meat usually has meat from several dozen cows in a
>> one-pound package. On the rare occasions that I want a hamburger, I
>> grind my own from a single hunk.
>
That's probably a good idea. You even know the source.
>
> The "problem" with commercially-prepared mince/hamburger is that it was
> mechanically-separated and likely to contain tissues from spinal cord,
> brain, etc., which is believed to increase the odds of vCJD
> transmission. Grinding your own has other benefits -- for example, you
> can select leaner cuts.
>
>> Next you're going to tell me that the few BSE cows we've had were all
>> found.
>
>
> Strawman, and you're a poor excuse of a psychic. The problem in the UK
> has been overblown, and the only reported case of vCJD in the United
> States involved a British citizen in Florida whom it's believed was
> infected while she lived in the UK. You're still the nitwit here.

We have found cows with Mad Cow desease. The evidence strong enough that
othere nations, such as Japan resused to accept American Beef.

Dutch wrote:

>>However, as an anecdotal study as a 50 year of man and 30 years of
>>extensive soy usage, I had an MRI of my brain and they found my brain
>>unusually healthy, without the usual shrinkage's for a man my age. Why the
>>study, they found something in my brother while researching his
>>osteoporosis. My neurologist said he'd never seen such a healthy brain in
>>a 50 year old man. No shrinking brain in a tofu eating man!
>
>
> Anecdotal.
>
I started by calling it an anecdotal study.

>

usual suspect wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>>>> The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
>>> while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s,
>>> the predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are
>>> now backpedalling in their predictions.
>>
>>
>> It assumed nothing about numbers.
>
>
> Yes, it does. How many cattle have been shown to be BSE+? How many meals
> of beef are consumed daily by people in just the US? The risk of vCJD
> from BSE is so miniscule that it deserves no consideration compared to,
> say, being struck by lightning or being in an auto crash or acquiring
> some form of cancer.
>
>> If there is the possibility that one cow is infected, the more cows
>> you eat of, the more likely you are to become infected.
>
>
> Ipse dixit. You're assuming not only that one is infected but that it
> makes it into the human food supply. In the two (possibly three)
> instances of BSE+ cattle in the US, no meat from those animals entered
> ANY food supply.
>
>> The odds of contracting an STD
>
>
> Is a much different issue and you're trying to change the subject.

I'm discussing the nature of contagion in general since you seem to have
blocked on the issue of prion diseases. The principles are the same. If
there's the possibility of one mad cow out there, a hamburger patty with
meat from a hundred cows is more likely to be infected than a patty with
meat from one. The actual likelihood of infection doesn't bear on that.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Dutch wrote:
> "Jerry Avins" > wrote
>
>>usual suspect wrote:
>>
>>>Jerry Avins wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>>>The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>>>
>>>
>>>Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and while
>>>that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s, the
>>>predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
>>>backpedalling in their predictions.
>>
>>It assumed nothing about numbers. If there is the possibility that one cow
>>is infected, the more cows you eat of, the more likely you are to become
>>infected.
>>
>>The odds of contracting an STD from one sexual encounter is relatively
>>small. Do you doubt that the risk increases with the number of partners?
>
>
> Of course, the question is, what is a rational response to risk?
>
> One child in 10,000 is assaulted in the schoolyard, is it rational
> to remove my children from school?
>
> BSE is primarily a political/economic issue, not a reason to
> radically alter one's diet.

I don't disagree. It is, however, a reason to alter our husbandry practices.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

usual suspect wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>>>> Oriental populations that use a lot of soy learned to ferment it in
>>>> various ways, thereby reducing its toxicity. Western arrogance
>>>
>>>
>>> You self-loathing liberals can't get this straight. It's not
>>> arrogance that leads Westerners to assume that because a little of
>>> something in one form might be beneficial that a lot of it in all
>>> forms is even better. That's *ignorance*.
>>
>>
>> Those dispensers of benefits
>
>
> Another example of your liberal self-loathing.

I do indeed take a liberal position on social issues. What I loathe are
those who, rather than adopt a defensible stance, simply sneer.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Beach Runner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>
>>>However, as an anecdotal study as a 50 year of man and 30 years of
>>>extensive soy usage, I had an MRI of my brain and they found my brain
>>>unusually healthy, without the usual shrinkage's for a man my age. Why
>>>the study, they found something in my brother while researching his
>>>osteoporosis. My neurologist said he'd never seen such a healthy brain
>>>in a 50 year old man. No shrinking brain in a tofu eating man!
>>
>>
>> Anecdotal.
>>
> I started by calling it an anecdotal study.

It's not a study.

"Jerry Avins" > wrote in message
...
> Dutch wrote:
>> "Jerry Avins" > wrote
>>
>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
>>>>while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s, the
>>>>predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
>>>>backpedalling in their predictions.
>>>
>>>It assumed nothing about numbers. If there is the possibility that one
>>>cow is infected, the more cows you eat of, the more likely you are to
>>>become infected.
>>>
>>>The odds of contracting an STD from one sexual encounter is relatively
>>>small. Do you doubt that the risk increases with the number of partners?
>>
>>
>> Of course, the question is, what is a rational response to risk?
>>
>> One child in 10,000 is assaulted in the schoolyard, is it rational
>> to remove my children from school?
>>
>> BSE is primarily a political/economic issue, not a reason to
>> radically alter one's diet.
>
> I don't disagree. It is, however, a reason to alter our husbandry
> practices.

I think that has already happened, in theory if not completely in practise.

Beach Runner wrote:

Hey, Einstein, do you have attention deficit disorder or are you just
stupid? Why don't you reply to the actual post containing the points you
want to discuss instead of ****ing up the whole thread?

>>>> Not related to "extensive use of meat" [sic]. BSE affects cattle,
>>>> not humans. The human TSE variant believed to come from infected
>>>> meat is vCJD. It's believed that eating infected meat -- not lots of
>>>> meat -- is to blame. Nitwit.
>
> Yes another term is used for people, vCJD, but directly related to
> eating meat. It makes no difference.

Yes, it DOES make a difference. Read the following link, dumb ass.

http://www.cjd.ed.ac.uk/CJDtype/cjdtype.htm

> It's considered Mad Cow Desease.

No, it is not. So-called "mad cow" refers to BSE, the transmissible
spongiform encephalopathy which affects cattle.

>> Ipse dixit. It's not yet known if there are genetic issues which make
>> some people more prone to vCJD -- or normal CJD -- than others. Why do
>> only some members of households who presumably eat the same meat in
>> the same dishes contract (v)CJD and others not?
>
> Good question.

Meaning you're wholly unqualified to respond with a good answer.

> There was a lot of canobolism in human's past, so there
> is some resistance factor. Obviously not comple.

See what I mean? That's a *HORRIBLE* answer, dumb ass. Kuru is not the
same as vCJD.

>>> If you eat no meat, you run no risk.
>>
>>> The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be infected.
>
> Obviously,

No, not necessarily. That presumes that BSE infection in cattle is a
widespread rather than isolated problem. The risk even in the UK during
the 1980s and 1990s was very small. It's even more small in the US and
Canada.

> and hamburgers have the largest variety.

You're blowing hot air out of your fat, old ass again.

>> Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
>> while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s,
>> the predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are now
>> backpedalling in their predictions.
>
> The dsease has a long period of time till it shows itself.

No, it doesn't. The risks were presumably greatest in the 1980s. The
number of new vCJD cases has already plateaued and is already in decline:

In the first quarter of 2004 there was only one death from
variant CJD reported in the United Kingdom. This follows a total
of 18 deaths reported in 2003. The greatest number of deaths
reported in any one year was 28 in the year 2000: this decreased
to 20 in 2001 and 17 in 2002. At the end of the first quarter of
2004 the overall total number of deaths from vCJD was 140 with a
further 6 probable cases alive.
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ew/2004/040513.asp#3

>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...610802,00.html
>> Etc.
>
> And there are new cases.

At a declining rate.

>>> Commercial chopped meat usually has meat from several dozen cows in a
>>> one-pound package. On the rare occasions that I want a hamburger, I
>>> grind my own from a single hunk.
>
> That's probably a good idea. You even know the source.

It's an irrational response. I gave him a better reason to grind his own
hamburger.

>> The "problem" with commercially-prepared mince/hamburger is that it
>> was mechanically-separated and likely to contain tissues from spinal
>> cord, brain, etc., which is believed to increase the odds of vCJD
>> transmission. Grinding your own has other benefits -- for example, you
>> can select leaner cuts.
>>
>>> Next you're going to tell me that the few BSE cows we've had were all
>>> found.
>>
>> Strawman, and you're a poor excuse of a psychic. The problem in the UK
>> has been overblown, and the only reported case of vCJD in the United
>> States involved a British citizen in Florida whom it's believed was
>> infected while she lived in the UK. You're still the nitwit here.
>
> We have found cows with Mad Cow desease.

Two. Two really *****ing old* cows that were destined for pet food, not
for the human food supply because they were over 12 years-old.

> The evidence strong enough

No, the panic is strong enough that other nations exercise irrational
caution just as we did when we banned Canadian beef because a couple
isolated cows tested positive.

> that
> othere nations, such as Japan resused to accept American Beef.

Japan agreed to rescinded its ban last year, but still hasn't done so.
Other nations have. It's safe. The two cows which have already been
tested to have BSE were very old and neither was headed to the human
food supply. Neither entered ANY food supply. There is a third cow whose
brain tissue is now being tested. According to the reports I've read, it
was also over 12 years old. That's the cattle age-equivalent of being
middle-aged (or borderline "old") -- a time when the body starts to
decline rather quickly. It's not surprising when aging humans, pets, or
livestock begin to show signs that their ends are near. It would be more
surprising if they didn't.

Beach Runner wrote:
>>> However, as an anecdotal study as a 50 year of man and 30 years of
>>> extensive soy usage, I had an MRI of my brain and they found my brain
>>> unusually healthy, without the usual shrinkage's for a man my age.
>>> Why the study, they found something in my brother while researching
>>> his osteoporosis. My neurologist said he'd never seen such a healthy
>>> brain in a 50 year old man. No shrinking brain in a tofu eating man!
>>
>>
>> Anecdotal.
>
> I started by calling it an anecdotal study.

It's not a study by any definition, you twit. It's ENTIRELY anecdotal.

Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>>> The more cows you sample, the more likely one of them will be
>>>>> infected.
>>>>
>>>> Ipse dixit. That assumes sufficient numbers of cattle have BSE, and
>>>> while that was certainly the case in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s,
>>>> the predicted pandemic has never occurred. Indeed, researchers are
>>>> now backpedalling in their predictions.
>>>
>>> It assumed nothing about numbers.
>>
>> Yes, it does. How many cattle have been shown to be BSE+? How many
>> meals of beef are consumed daily by people in just the US? The risk of
>> vCJD from BSE is so miniscule that it deserves no consideration
>> compared to, say, being struck by lightning or being in an auto crash
>> or acquiring some form of cancer.
>>
>>> If there is the possibility that one cow is infected, the more cows
>>> you eat of, the more likely you are to become infected.
>>
>> Ipse dixit. You're assuming not only that one is infected but that it
>> makes it into the human food supply. In the two (possibly three)
>> instances of BSE+ cattle in the US, no meat from those animals entered
>> ANY food supply.
>>
>>> The odds of contracting an STD
>>
>> Is a much different issue and you're trying to change the subject.
>
> I'm discussing the nature of contagion in general

We were discussing something in particular. Why do you keep trying to
change the subject?

Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>>> Oriental populations that use a lot of soy learned to ferment it in
>>>>> various ways, thereby reducing its toxicity. Western arrogance
>>>>
>>>> You self-loathing liberals can't get this straight. It's not
>>>> arrogance that leads Westerners to assume that because a little of
>>>> something in one form might be beneficial that a lot of it in all
>>>> forms is even better. That's *ignorance*.
>>>
>>> Those dispensers of benefits
>>
>> Another example of your liberal self-loathing.
>
> I do indeed take a liberal position

Already noted. I don't need your confirmation.