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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.gardening
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The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate
On May 23, 2:52*am, "Fred C. Dobbs" >
wrote: > On 5/22/2010 3:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > On May 19, 12:40 am, "Fred C. > > > wrote: > >> On 5/18/2010 2:17 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On May 18, 2:53 pm, "Fred C. > > >>> wrote: > >>>> On 5/17/2010 1:51 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On May 17, 6:50 am, "Fred C. > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> On 5/15/2010 6:21 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On May 16, 3:40 am, "Fred C. > > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 5/15/2010 1:26 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On May 15, 11:59 am, "Fred C. > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 3:43 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 8:23 am, "Fred C. > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 3:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 6:26 am, "Fred C. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 1:16 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 6:15 am, "Fred C. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 1:06 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 5:40 am, "Fred C. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "vegan" pseudo-argument on "inefficiency" is that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resources used to produce a given amount of meat > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could produce a much greater amount of vegetable food > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for direct human consumption, due to the loss of energy > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that results from feeding grain and other feeds to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> livestock. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to examine the efficiency of some process, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there must be agreement on what the end product is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose efficiency of production you are examining. *If > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're looking at the production of consumer > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronics, for example, then the output is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> televisions, stereo receivers, DVD players, etc. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather obviously, you need to get specific. *No > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sensible person is going to suggest that we ought to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discontinue the production of television sets, because > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they require more resources to produce (which they do), > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and produce more DVD players instead. *(For the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cave-dwellers, an extremely high quality DVD player may > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be bought for under US$100, while a comparable quality > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> television set is going to cost several hundred > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars. *$500 for a DVD player is astronomical - I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not even sure there are any that expensive - while you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can easily pay $3000 or more for a large plasma TV > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> monitor, which will require a separate TV receiver.) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the "vegans" doing with their misuse of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "inefficiency"? *They're clearly saying that the end > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product whose efficiency of production we want to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consider is "food", i.e., undifferentiated food > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calories. *Just as clearly, they are wrong. *Humans > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't consider all foods equal, and hence equally > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substitutable. *As in debunking so much of "veganism", > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can see this easily - laughably easily - by > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricting our view to a strictly vegetarian diet, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without introducing meat into the discussion at all. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If "vegans" REALLY were interested in food production > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efficiency, they would be advocating the production of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only a very small number of vegetable crops, as it is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious that some crops are more efficient to produce - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use less resources per nutritional unit of output - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But how do "vegans" actually behave? *Why, they buy > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some fruits and vegetables that are resource-efficient, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they buy some fruits and vegetables that are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relatively resource-INefficient. *You know this by > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking at retail prices: *higher priced goods ARE > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher priced because they use more resources to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> produce. *If "vegans" REALLY were interested in food > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> production efficiency, they would only be buying the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely cheapest fruit or vegetable for any given > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nutritional requirement. *This would necessarily mean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there would be ONLY one kind of leafy green vegetable, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one kind of grain, one variety of fruit, and so on. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If "vegans" were to extend this misuse of "efficiency" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into other consumer goods, say clothing, then there > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be only one kind of shoe produced (and thus only > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one brand). *The same would hold for every conceivable > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> garment. *A button-front shirt with collars costs more > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to produce - uses more resources - than does a T-shirt, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so everyone "ought" to wear only T-shirts, if we're > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to focus on the efficiency of shirt production. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't "need" any button front shirts, just as you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't "need" meat. *But look in any "vegan's" wardrobe, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you'll see a variety of different kinds of clothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (all natural fiber, of course.) *"vegans" aren't > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advocating that only the most "efficient" clothing be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> produced, as their own behavior clearly indicates. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The correct way to analyze efficiency of production is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to focus as narrowly as possible on the end product, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then see if that product can be produced using fewer > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resources. *It is important to note that the consumer's > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view of products as distinct things is crucial. *A > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> radio can be produced far more "efficiently", in terms > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of resource use, than a television; but consumers don't > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view radios and televisions as generic entertainment > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The critical mistake, the UNBELIEVABLY stupid mistake, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that "vegans" who misconceive of "inefficiency" are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making, is to see "food" as some undifferentiated lump > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of calories and other nutritional requirements. *Once > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one realizes that this is not how ANYONE, including the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "vegans" themselves, views food, then the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "inefficiency" argument against using resources for > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meat production falls to the ground. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope this helps. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What the efficiency argument actually says, on any reasonably > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligent reading, is that by going vegan you can have a diet which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is just as tasty and nutritious with a much smaller environmental > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprint. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not what it's saying at all, as we already know. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you know? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already explained it to you several times over the last couple of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. *The issue is *not* about environmental footprint, and you know > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. *It's about a misconceived and ignorant belief regarding resource > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> allocation. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The issue is not about environmental footprint *for whom*? > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The issue is not about environmental footprint at all. > > >>>>>>>>>>> An argument can be made for going vegan based on environmental > >>>>>>>>>>> footprint, right? > > >>>>>>>>>> No, because you don't make the same commitment to minimize your > >>>>>>>>>> footprint in all other aspects of your life, *and* because that's not > >>>>>>>>>> why you're "going vegan", *and* because you'd "go vegan" *EVEN IF* it > >>>>>>>>>> had a higher environmental footprint than omnivory. > > >>>>>>>>> This isn't really about me personally. There are various > >>>>>>>>> considerations that might motivate someone to go vegan. The fact that > >>>>>>>>> it significantly reduces your environmental footprint is one of them. > >>>>>>>>> Someone might be rationally motivated to go vegan on those grounds. > > >>>>>>>>> The environmental considerations are not the main consideration for > >>>>>>>>> me, no, but they are a significant consideration, and I do make some > >>>>>>>>> effort to reduce my environmental footprint in other aspects of my > >>>>>>>>> life as well. But that is irrelevant. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you claim that *no-one* who talks about the "inefficiency" of meat > >>>>>>>>>>>>> production has this environmental argument in mind? That seems like a > >>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty extraordinary claim to me. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I mean that everyone who has blabbered about it here is not talking > >>>>>>>>>>>> about the environment. > > >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you. It is helpful when you clarify for me whom you wish to > >>>>>>>>>>> address, obviously. > > >>>>>>>>>>> Who has talked about it here? > > >>>>>>>>>> Your good pal, Lesley R. Simon, the foot-rubbing whore of Aughalustia, > >>>>>>>>>> Ballaghaderreen, County Roscommon, Ireland. *Many others whose names > >>>>>>>>>> escape me. *One was a ****wit named 'sam', 03 Mar 2008. *Another ****wit > >>>>>>>>>> named 'pinboard' on the same date. > > >>>>>>>>> Well, those people aren't here at the moment, > > >>>>>> They are typical. > > >>>>>>>>>> It is the standard position in aaev. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> They're *all* talking about some kind of > >>>>>>>>>>>> nonsensical absolute inefficiency. *The overwhelming majority have also > >>>>>>>>>>>> repeatedly maintained that the land currently in use for livestock > >>>>>>>>>>>> fodder continue to be used for agriculture, but that it be used to grow > >>>>>>>>>>>> food for "starving people" around the world. > > >>>>>>>>>>> You wouldn't be able to use all the land for that purpose. > > >>>>>>>>>> Irrelevant. > > >>>>>>>>> It is highly relevant > > >>>>>>>> It is irrelevant. *The people advancing the bogus "efficiency" argument > >>>>>>>> are doing so not because they think the land shouldn't be used for > >>>>>>>> agriculture, but because they think it should be used for /different/ > >>>>>>>> output than it is currently used to produce. > > >>>>>>> They think that a smaller amount of land should be used, obviously. > > >>>>>> That's not obvious at all, liar. > > >>>>> It takes a smaller amount of land to feed the human population on a > >>>>> plant-based diet than on an animal-based diet. > > >>>> They're not calling for a reduction in land use. > > >>> Of course they are > > >> They're not, fool. *They're calling for different food to be grown, and > >> given away to humans. > > > Different food to be grown which requires less land use in order to > > produce. > > Different food to be grown and given away to unproductive people, period. Actually, my statement was correct. |
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