"Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.

"A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation for
a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition to
daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
vegetarian."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html


Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.

Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and healthy
life.

K wrote:

> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>
> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation for
> a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition to
> daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
> vegetarian."
>
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html
>
>
> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>
> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and healthy
> life.

Your sample size is too small and your conclusions bogus. Leaving out
alcohol, tobacco and other recreational drugs will improve your health.
Eating meat will not.

--
Peace,
Fred
remove FFFf from my email address to reply.

Fred wrote:
> K wrote:
>
>> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
>> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>>
>> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation for
>> a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition to
>> daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
>> vegetarian."
>>
>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>
>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and healthy
>> life.
>
> Your sample size is too small and your conclusions bogus. Leaving out
> alcohol, tobacco and other recreational drugs will improve your health.
> Eating meat will not.

Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat is
an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.

K wrote:

> Fred wrote:
>> K wrote:
>>
>>> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
>>> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>>>
>>> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation for
>>> a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition to
>>> daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
>>> vegetarian."
>>>
>>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>
>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and healthy
>>> life.
>>
>> Your sample size is too small and your conclusions bogus. Leaving out
>> alcohol, tobacco and other recreational drugs will improve your health.
>> Eating meat will not.
>
> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat is
> an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.

And you have to kill to get it and it comes laced with residues of growth
hormones and anti-biotics and red dyes that the butcher adds to make it look
good, and heaven knows what else. No thanks I'll never eat meat again.

--
Peace,
Fred
remove FFFf from my email address to reply.

Fred wrote:
> K wrote:
>
>> Fred wrote:
>>> K wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
>>>> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>>>>
>>>> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation for
>>>> a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition to
>>>> daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
>>>> vegetarian."
>>>>
>>>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>>>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>>>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>>>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>>
>>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and healthy
>>>> life.
>>> Your sample size is too small and your conclusions bogus. Leaving out
>>> alcohol, tobacco and other recreational drugs will improve your health.
>>> Eating meat will not.
>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat is
>> an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.
>
> And you have to kill to get it

Not a problem.


> and it comes laced with residues of growth
> hormones and anti-biotics and red dyes that the butcher adds to make it look
> good, and heaven knows what else.

No, none of that is necessary, and quite a lot of meat doesn't contain
any of that.


> No thanks I'll never eat meat again.

That's your choice. However, most of your reasons for not eating it,
particularly the slaughter of the animals, are specious.

K wrote:

> Fred wrote:
>> K wrote:
>>
>>> Fred wrote:
>>>> K wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
>>>>> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>>>>>
>>>>> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation
>>>>> for a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in
>>>>> addition to daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was
>>>>> a strict vegetarian."
>>>>>
>>>>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>>>>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>>>>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>>>>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and
>>>>> healthy life.
>>>> Your sample size is too small and your conclusions bogus. Leaving out
>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other recreational drugs will improve your health.
>>>> Eating meat will not.
>>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat is
>>> an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.
>>
>> And you have to kill to get it
>
> Not a problem.
>
Well, unless you're a psychopath, it is.

>
>> and it comes laced with residues of growth
>> hormones and anti-biotics and red dyes that the butcher adds to make it
>> look good, and heaven knows what else.
>
> No, none of that is necessary, and quite a lot of meat doesn't contain
> any of that.
>
Yeah it does. unless you buy organic meat, and how many people do?
>
>> No thanks I'll never eat meat again.
>
> That's your choice. However, most of your reasons for not eating it,
> particularly the slaughter of the animals, are specious.

Humanist. Caring people don't eat meat.

--
Peace,
Fred
remove FFFf from my email address to reply.

"Fred" > wrote in message
...
>K wrote:
>
>> Fred wrote:
>>> K wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
>>>> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>>>>
>>>> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation
>>>> for
>>>> a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition
>>>> to
>>>> daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
>>>> vegetarian."
>>>>
>>>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>>>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>>>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>>>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>>
>>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and healthy
>>>> life.
>>>
>>> Your sample size is too small and your conclusions bogus. Leaving out
>>> alcohol, tobacco and other recreational drugs will improve your health.
>>> Eating meat will not.
>>
>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat is
>> an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.
>
> And you have to kill to get it and it comes laced with residues of growth
> hormones and anti-biotics and red dyes that the butcher adds to make it
> look
> good, and heaven knows what else. No thanks I'll never eat meat again.

And you have to kill to produce soya beans and it comes laced with
herbicides and pesticides and chemical fertilizers. Maybe you should stop
eating altogether.

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> ...
>>K wrote:
>>
>>> Fred wrote:
>>>> K wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
>>>>> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>>>>>
>>>>> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation
>>>>> for
>>>>> a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition
>>>>> to
>>>>> daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
>>>>> vegetarian."
>>>>>
>>>>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>>>>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>>>>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>>>>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and
>>>>> healthy
>>>>> life.
>>>>
>>>> Your sample size is too small and your conclusions bogus. Leaving out
>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other recreational drugs will improve your health.
>>>> Eating meat will not.
>>>
>>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat is
>>> an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.
>>
>> And you have to kill to get it and it comes laced with residues of growth
>> hormones and anti-biotics and red dyes that the butcher adds to make it
>> look
>> good, and heaven knows what else. No thanks I'll never eat meat again.
>
> And you have to kill to produce soya beans and it comes laced with
> herbicides and pesticides and chemical fertilizers. Maybe you should stop
> eating altogether.

We should all thank our lucky stars that we are able to eat anything. I had
a bad colonoscopy, and had to undergo a complete purge (you do not want to
know) and I couldn't eat anything for two days prior to the next one.
Yesterday was the first day when I could eat, and my stomach had gone into
the hibernation mode, and I could barely get anything down. Today I had
plain white bread and boiled chicken sandwich. Tonight I will try something
more rough, like rye bread. The hot chili with jalapenos is some months
into the future, maybe.

John Mayson wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>
>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat
>> is an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.
>
> Protein that you just **** down the drain.

False.


> We can get all the protein
> we need and then some from plant sources.

So? If that's your preference, then do it; just don't try to claim
you're being "more ethical" for it. You aren't.


> And what "other nutrients" do
> you suggest we get from meat?

Iron, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids, B and D vitamins, selenium.

K wrote:
> John Mayson wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>
>>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. Meat
>>> is an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.
>>
>> Protein that you just **** down the drain.
>
> False.
>
>
>> We can get all the protein we need and then some from plant sources.
>
> So? If that's your preference, then do it; just don't try to claim
> you're being "more ethical" for it. You aren't.
>
>
>> And what "other nutrients" do you suggest we get from meat?
>
> Iron, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids, B and D vitamins, selenium.

Specifically B-12 which is only reliably available from
animal sources.

Dutch wrote:
> K wrote:
>> John Mayson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>
>>>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either.
>>>> Meat is an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other
>>>> nutrients.
>>>
>>> Protein that you just **** down the drain.
>>
>> False.
>>
>>
>>> We can get all the protein we need and then some from plant sources.
>>
>> So? If that's your preference, then do it; just don't try to claim
>> you're being "more ethical" for it. You aren't.
>>
>>
>>> And what "other nutrients" do you suggest we get from meat?
>>
>> Iron, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids, B and D vitamins, selenium.
>
> Specifically B-12 which is only reliably available from animal sources.

Good point. However, I wasn't specifically interested in nutrients that
are unique to meat. Mayson seemed to be suggesting that there aren't
any important nutrients found in meat. Nor was I claiming that meat is
necessarily the best source for these nutrients; my claim is limited to
the fact that meat /is/ a source for some important nutrients.

What I find distressing about this part of the thread is my certainty
that, in the end, he's suddenly going to abandon the nutrition argument
entirely, and fall back onto some variant of "meat is murder". It bugs
me when people use a smokescreen argument that they only intend to
abandon later on anyway.

On Jun 29, 2:07*pm, Dutch > wrote:
> K wrote:
> > John Mayson wrote:
> >> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>
> >>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either. *Meat
> >>> is an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other nutrients.
>
> >> Protein that you just **** down the drain.
>
> > False.
>
> >> We can get all the protein we need and then some from plant sources.
>
> > So? *If that's your preference, then do it; just don't try to claim
> > you're being "more ethical" for it. *You aren't.
>
> >> And what "other nutrients" do you suggest we get from meat?
>
> > Iron, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids, B and D vitamins, selenium.
>
> Specifically B-12 which is only reliably available from
> animal sources.-


Bullshit! Grasses uptake B-12 if it is available in the soil from
manures.

John Mayson wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Dutch wrote:
>
>> Specifically B-12 which is only reliably available from animal sources.
>
> Not true.

No, true.


> http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

Ha ha ha! Good one!

John Mayson wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>
>> John Mayson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>
>>>> Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either.
>>>> Meat is an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other
>>>> nutrients.
>>>
>>> Protein that you just **** down the drain.
>>
>> False.
>
> No. True.

No, false.


> Americans eat far more protein than their bodies can use

Prove it.


> and unused protein is expelled in the urine.
>
>>> We can get all the protein we need and then some from plant sources.
>>
>> So? If that's your preference, then do it; just don't try to claim
>> you're being "more ethical" for it. You aren't.
>
> I never did.

You will.


>
>>> And what "other nutrients" do you suggest we get from meat?
>>
>> Iron, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids, B and D vitamins, selenium.
>
> And you also lose vital nutrients like vitamin C and fiber by feeding
> plants to animals and eating the animals.

No, you don't "lose" those, any more than you "lose" the physical
components of coal or oil by burning them to make electricity.

Fact: feeding vegetable matter to animals is not inefficient. To claim
it is is to misunderstand what efficiency means.

"John Mayson" > wrote in message
cal...
> On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, K wrote:
>
>> John Mayson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>
>>> > John Mayson wrote:
>>> > > On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health, either.
>>> > > > Meat is an excellent source of protein, some minerals and other
>>> > > > nutrients.
>>> > >
>>> > > Protein that you just **** down the drain.
>>> >
>>> > False.
>>>
>>> No. True.
>>
>> No, false.
>
> Sigh... we're going to play this game, okay.
>
> http://femme-vitale.com/protein.htm
>
> "For Americans, the problem is normally too much protein."
>
>>> Americans eat far more protein than their bodies can use
>>
>> Prove it.
>
> The above is one of hundreds of hits I found using an Internet tool called
> "Google". You can find it he http://www.google.com
>
>>> > So? If that's your preference, then do it; just don't try to claim
>>> > you're being "more ethical" for it. You aren't.
>>>
>>> I never did.
>>
>> You will.
>
> Hookay.
>
>>> > Iron, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids, B and D vitamins, selenium.
>>>
>>> And you also lose vital nutrients like vitamin C and fiber by feeding
>>> plants to animals and eating the animals.
>>
>> No, you don't "lose" those, any more than you "lose" the physical
>> components of coal or oil by burning them to make electricity.
>>
>> Fact: feeding vegetable matter to animals is not inefficient. To claim
>> it is is to misunderstand what efficiency means.
>
> Okay, I'm done. Arguing with a moron isn't how I want to spend my
> evenings.
>
> John
>
>
> --
> John Mayson >
> Austin, Texas, USA

I was just passing by, and don't care, but a cite to a beauty supply
store...

Copyright 2003 Eden S.P.A. & Beauty Supply, All rights reserved

....seems to not be a peer-reviewed medical article.

I've had bladder cancer, and in the many urine tests that I have taken, one
of the things said was that they were looking for protein in the urine.
That seemed to be abnormal, i.e. normal urine does not have that.

John Mayson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, K wrote:
>
>> John Mayson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>
>>> > John Mayson wrote:
>>> > > On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>> > > > > > Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health,
>>> either. > > > Meat is an excellent source of protein, some minerals
>>> and other > > > nutrients.
>>> > > > > Protein that you just **** down the drain.
>>> > > False.
>>>
>>> No. True.
>>
>> No, false.
>
> Sigh... we're going to play this game, okay.
>
> http://femme-vitale.com/protein.htm
>
> "For Americans, the problem is normally too much protein."

"...recommends that Americans reduce their protein intake by 12-15%"

That is not consistent with your implied belief that Americans eat *far*
too much protein. They don't.

The *real* problem for Americans is they eat too much food.


>
>>> Americans eat far more protein than their bodies can use
>>
>> Prove it.
>
> The above is one of hundreds of hits I found using an Internet tool
> called "Google".

Not conclusive.


>>> > So? If that's your preference, then do it; just don't try to
>>> claim > you're being "more ethical" for it. You aren't.
>>>
>>> I never did.
>>
>> You will.
>
> Hookay.
>
>>> > Iron, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids, B and D vitamins, selenium.
>>>
>>> And you also lose vital nutrients like vitamin C and fiber by feeding
>>> plants to animals and eating the animals.
>>
>> No, you don't "lose" those, any more than you "lose" the physical
>> components of coal or oil by burning them to make electricity.
>>
>> Fact: feeding vegetable matter to animals is not inefficient. To
>> claim it is is to misunderstand what efficiency means.
>
> Okay, I'm done. Arguing with a moron

You didn't argue. You merely presented your religious beliefs.

John Mayson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, K wrote:
>
>> John Mayson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>
>>> > John Mayson wrote:
>>> > > On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>> > > > > > Eating meat in moderate amounts won't harm your health,
>>> either. > > > Meat is an excellent source of protein, some minerals
>>> and other > > > nutrients.
>>> > > > > Protein that you just **** down the drain.
>>> > > False.
>>>
>>> No. True.
>>
>> No, false.
>
> Sigh... we're going to play this game, okay.
>
> http://femme-vitale.com/protein.htm
>
> "For Americans, the problem is normally too much protein."
>
>>> Americans eat far more protein than their bodies can use
>>
>> Prove it.
>
> The above is one of hundreds of hits I found using an Internet tool
> called "Google". You can find it he http://www.google.com

This deserves additional comment. The poster cites a rabid anti-meat
site to support his claim that Americans eat "far more" protein than
their bodies can use. But what does the site actually say? Well, it
/claims/ to be citing, although without any verifiable attribution, the
National Academy of Sciences as recommending "...that Americans reduce
their protein intake by 12-15% and switch from animal to plant protein
sources." For starters, if that really is the NAS recommendation, a
suggested reduction of 12-15% does not support the extravagant claim
that Americans eat "far more" protein than they need.

The site clearly is engaging in scare-mongering. They write that
"humans who consume more than half their calories as meat are at risk
for fatal protein poisoning", but how many people actually do that? The
alleged NAS recommendation that Americans on *average* reduce their
protein intake by 12-15% would not seem to suggest the percentage of
people at risk for "fatal protein poisoning" is very high.

But does the NAS really suggest that at all? And do they really suggest
that people switch, presumably entirely, from animal to plant sources of
protein? The extremist site does not offer any support for the claim
that NAS said any of this. There are no links to any NAS publications
or web sites. All we have is an unsupported allegation.

K wrote:
> "Those close to Michael Jackson say he had been working diligently to
> get back in shape for his planned comeback next month in London.
>
> "A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation for
> a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in addition to
> daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was a strict
> vegetarian."

I guess you're unaware that he used to eat a very unhealthy died! At
Jackson's memorial, Magic Johnson mentioned the buckets of Kentucky
Fried Chicken he used to eat. Gee...perhaps THAT had something to do
with damaging his health!

> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>
> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and healthy
> life.

There is NO AMOUNT of meat that justifies the cruelty to animals
inherent in the meat industry. You can justify eating meat any way you
like, but it doesn't alter the fact that sentient beings are abused
during life and then cruelly killed in order to put meat on your plate.
If you're okay with that...what can I say?


--

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John Mayson wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>
> For starters, Jackson was not a vegetarian.

Proof?


>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>
>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and
>> healthy life.
>
> I know people who ate meat, who lived a long time, but the last two
> decades of their lives absolutely sucked thanks to cancer, heart
> disease, diabetes, and such. Sorry, but that's not living.

None of that can be blamed on meat consumption /per/ /se/, and I think
you know it. You just commited the /post/ /hoc/ fallacy, big time.

John Mayson wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>
>> John Mayson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>
>>> For starters, Jackson was not a vegetarian.
>>
>> Proof?
>
> The burden of proof lies with the person who made the original claim he
> was a vegetarian.

You're the one claiming he wasn't a vegetarian. I already posted a link
at the beginning of the thread to the source that claims he wasn't one.

You're the one making the unsupported claim: "Jackson was not a
vegetarian". Support your claim, or admit you can't support it.


>>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half
>>>> a dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their
>>>> 90s and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them
>>>> are omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>>
>>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and
>>>> healthy life.
>>>
>>> I know people who ate meat, who lived a long time, but the last two
>>> decades of their lives absolutely sucked thanks to cancer, heart
>>> disease, diabetes, and such. Sorry, but that's not living.
>>
>> None of that can be blamed on meat consumption /per/ /se/, and I think
>> you know it. You just commited the /post/ /hoc/ fallacy, big time.
>
> If I "knew it" I wouldn't have posted anything to the contrary. I
> posted it because it's true.

You don't have any support for it. You cannot substantiate your
implicit claim that meat consumption /caused/ those ailments. You
believe it, but only for ideological reasons.

K wrote:
> John Mayson wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>
>>> John Mayson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For starters, Jackson was not a vegetarian.
>>>
>>> Proof?
>>
>> The burden of proof lies with the person who made the original claim
>> he was a vegetarian.
>
> You're the one claiming he wasn't a vegetarian. I already posted a link
> at the beginning of the thread to the source that claims he wasn't one.

Sorry, miskeyed - to the source that claims he was one.

A year ago, he was gaunt and using a wheelchair, but in preparation
for a 50-show run in London, he was exercising with a trainer in
addition to daylong rehearsals with dancers half his age. He also was
a strict vegetarian."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...jackson-2.html


You're claiming he wasn't one. The burden of proof is on you to show
that he wasn't. Shut up and get busy.


>
> You're the one making the unsupported claim: "Jackson was not a
> vegetarian". Support your claim, or admit you can't support it.
>
>
>>>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over
>>>>> half a dozen people over the last several years who have lived into
>>>>> their 90s and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of
>>>>> them are omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and
>>>>> healthy life.
>>>>
>>>> I know people who ate meat, who lived a long time, but the last two
>>>> decades of their lives absolutely sucked thanks to cancer, heart
>>>> disease, diabetes, and such. Sorry, but that's not living.
>>>
>>> None of that can be blamed on meat consumption /per/ /se/, and I
>>> think you know it. You just commited the /post/ /hoc/ fallacy, big
>>> time.
>>
>> If I "knew it" I wouldn't have posted anything to the contrary. I
>> posted it because it's true.
>
> You don't have any support for it. You cannot substantiate your
> implicit claim that meat consumption /caused/ those ailments. You
> believe it, but only for ideological reasons.

John Mayson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, K wrote:
>
>> John Mayson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>>
>>> > John Mayson wrote:
>>> > > On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>> > > > > For starters, Jackson was not a vegetarian.
>>> > > Proof?
>>>
>>> The burden of proof lies with the person who made the original claim he
>>> was a vegetarian.
>>
>> You're the one claiming he wasn't a vegetarian. I already posted a
>> link at the beginning of the thread to the source that claims he
>> wasn't one.
>>
>> You're the one making the unsupported claim: "Jackson was not a
>> vegetarian". Support your claim, or admit you can't support it.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...e-tv-blog.html
>
>
> This also came out during the whole "Jesus Juice" revelation. He
> favorite meal is chicken from KFC.

Inconclusive. That was a look back at his whole life. It's possible he
ate KFC earlier but was a strict vegetarian at the time of his death.

You have no idea, *and* you didn't have that information at the time you
made your wild and unsupported claim.



>> You don't have any support for it. You cannot substantiate your
>> implicit claim that meat consumption /caused/ those ailments. You
>> believe it, but only for ideological reasons.
>
> I could go through and cite study after study linking meat consumption
> to a host of ailments including diabetes, heart disease, colon cancer.

No, you couldn't - you haven't read any.

Even if you had, not one of them links meat consumption /per/ /se/ with
those ailments; they all tie them to excessive food consumption.


> I could also cite studies showing the benefits of consuming fruits and
> vegetables. But you'll still find some flaw.

The flaw is that you haven't read them, and you misinterpret what any
legitimate studies say.

John Mayson wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>
> For starters, Jackson was not a vegetarian.
>
>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half a
>> dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their 90s
>> and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>
>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and
>> healthy life.
>
> I know people who ate meat, who lived a long time, but the last two
> decades of their lives absolutely sucked thanks to cancer, heart
> disease, diabetes, and such. Sorry, but that's not living.
>
> John

Sorry, but that's not solid reasoning John. How are you
differentiating the effect that meat had on those outcomes
with the effect of other dietary choices and other lifestyle
influences? What about obesity? Did they consume white flour
and sugar to excess? What about non-dietary environmental
factors? Where did they live? What did they do for a living?
What are the genetic factors? It is highly unlikely that a
moderate component of well-chosen meat in their diets would
have had anything but a neutral to positive overall impact
on their state of health in later life.

Dutch wrote:
> John Mayson wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, K wrote:
>>
>> For starters, Jackson was not a vegetarian.
>>
>>> Meanwhile, I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with over half
>>> a dozen people over the last several years who have lived into their
>>> 90s and are or were /extremely/ healthy and vibrant. All of them are
>>> omnivores. They ate meat, and everything else, in moderation.
>>>
>>> Moderate amounts of meat, coupled with abstinence from vices like
>>> alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, will help you live a long and
>>> healthy life.
>>
>> I know people who ate meat, who lived a long time, but the last two
>> decades of their lives absolutely sucked thanks to cancer, heart
>> disease, diabetes, and such. Sorry, but that's not living.
>>
>> John
>
> Sorry, but that's not solid reasoning John. How are you differentiating
> the effect that meat had on those outcomes with the effect of other
> dietary choices and other lifestyle influences? What about obesity? Did
> they consume white flour and sugar to excess? What about non-dietary
> environmental factors? Where did they live? What did they do for a
> living? What are the genetic factors? It is highly unlikely that a
> moderate component of well-chosen meat in their diets would have had
> anything but a neutral to positive overall impact on their state of
> health in later life.

*All* of those ailments he cites are ailments of old age. People get
those ailments because they live a long time. Very old vegetarians get
them, too.