A puzzlement.

All my long tea-drinking life, I had read and heard that tea leaves perform
best when unencumbered by tea balls or small insert-infusers. (I guess that's
also why infusers themselves seem to have gotten larger over the years.)

Then I discovered gongfu, which blatantly goes against this theory, and doesn't
give the leaves much expansion room. And some of those yixing pots are no
bigger than a teaball anyway.

So, as an experiment, I repotted some well-spent gongfu'ed oolong leaves into a
new pot and tried rebrewing them with plenty of expansion room, to see if there
was more flavor locked away that hadn't been unleashed. Nope.

Does this mean there's less reason to follow the aforementioned "rule?" Have
we been lied to by The Man?

Just interested in your comments. And apologies if I've overlooked something
that makes this a dumb question.

Joe

On 13 Oct 2003, Joseph Kubera posted the following to
rec.food.drink.tea:

> Does this mean there's less reason to follow the aforementioned
> "rule?" Have we been lied to by The Man?

My experience with teaballs and the like is that small infusion
tools keep the leaves in the middle from really contributing to the
steep. That is, the exterior leaves give their all, but the good
stuff from the interior leaves gets trapped. So a normal steep time
provides a weaker tea. And if I extend the time to compensate, the
tea loses quality and doesn't taste right.

On the other hand, I have never found a difference between steeping
in a pot and straining it versus using a significantly sized
infuser. As long as all the dissolved components get a chance to
"participate" in the final product, I can't tell the difference.

But then, I also find that larger infusers are just ever so much
easier to clean than tea balls to begin with - or is that the end?

And I've only had the pleasure of experiencing Gungfu once - so I
can't really speak to that.

Derek

--

Does it seem strange to anyone else that grass roots promotion of
"Take Back Your Time Day" encourages people to give up more of that
precious 'time' to which the day supposedly is dedicated?

"Derek" > wrote in message
...
> My experience with teaballs and the like is that small infusion
> tools keep the leaves in the middle from really contributing to the
> steep. That is, the exterior leaves give their all, but the good
> stuff from the interior leaves gets trapped. So a normal steep time
> provides a weaker tea. And if I extend the time to compensate, the
> tea loses quality and doesn't taste right.

I think Derek's explanation is basically the argument for "elbow room."
Those of us who spent much time in biochemistry and physiology classes may
remember that the rate of diffusion of a substance (in this case the various
compounds in the tea leaf) is directly proportional to the difference in
concentration, in this case between the leaf and the surrounding water. If
the tea is in leaf form and has more room to expand, more leaf surface area
is exposed and the compounds get to diffuse into the water at a faster pace
than they would if the leaves did not get a chance for good exposure with
the water and the compounds did not get an opportunity to diffuse out into
the surrounding water. Now, how important longer and short steeping times
may be probably differs based on the type of tea, the diffusion rates of the
different compounds and your personal taste. And how important relatively
small differences in "leaf compression" may be I have no idea.

Of course, this suggests that the issue is probably much less important for
teas that are cut to a greater degree since they have more surface area to
begin with.

I think many of the issues we discuss here are more closely related to
subjective tastes than anything else. For example, I personally find that
the flavor of a good darjeeling improves somewhat if the poured tea sits in
the cup or mug for 10-15 minutes before drinking. That may due to the fact
that some substances develop as the tea cools. It could also be that my
taste buds are better with slightly cooler rather than hotter liquids. Some
of you may think this observation is nuts.

For me, all of these issues are interesting, but they pale against my
realization, a few years ago, that there is an entire delicious world beyond
grocery store tea bags. I own two different pots, two different infusers, a
thermometer and a digital timer. I pay some attention to preparation issues,
but they seem less important than issues of personal taste and my original
foray into loose teas and the realization that "I ain't in Kansas anymore."

Warren

On 13 Oct 2003, Warren C. Liebold posted the following to
rec.food.drink.tea:

>> My experience with teaballs and the like is ....
>
> I think Derek's explanation is basically the argument for "elbow
> room...."

Yep. That's pretty much it. I used to use a tea ball, and unless I
stood their dunking it up and down during the steep, I got really
bad teas. I didn't know much at the time, but I knew this.

Unless there is room for difusion, you just don't get good tea.

> I think many of the issues we discuss here are more closely
> related to subjective tastes than anything else. For example, I
> personally find that the flavor of a good darjeeling improves
> somewhat if the poured tea sits in the cup or mug for 10-15
> minutes before drinking. That may due to the fact that some
> substances develop as the tea cools. It could also be that my
> taste buds are better with slightly cooler rather than hotter
> liquids. Some of you may think this observation is nuts.

Nah. I think it shows that you pay attention and know what you
like. I happen to prefer my 3-minute teas steeped for 2.5 minutes.
I dont' know if it's because I use more leaf than I should or what,
but there is a distinct drinkability difference in that extra 30
seconds.

> For me, all of these issues are interesting, but they pale
> against my realization, a few years ago, that there is an entire
> delicious world beyond grocery store tea bags. I own two
> different pots, two different infusers, a thermometer and a
> digital timer. I pay some attention to preparation issues, but
> they seem less important than issues of personal taste and my
> original foray into loose teas and the realization that "I ain't
> in Kansas anymore."

I SO very much agree with this paragraph. My enjoyment went up when
I discovered that one could buy loose leaf tea instead of bags, and
that one didn't have to get this from a shop where the tea was
infused with the aroma of a certain bean.

What's really scarry is that I got my wife hooked just as badly as
I am.

Derek

--

Does it seem strange to anyone else that grass roots promotion of
"Take Back Your Time Day" encourages people to give up more of that
precious 'time' to which the day supposedly is dedicated?

"Warren C. Liebold" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
[snip]
> I think many of the issues we discuss here are more closely related to
> subjective tastes than anything else. For example, I personally find that
> the flavor of a good darjeeling improves somewhat if the poured tea sits
in
> the cup or mug for 10-15 minutes before drinking. That may due to the
fact
> that some substances develop as the tea cools. It could also be that my
> taste buds are better with slightly cooler rather than hotter liquids.
Some
> of you may think this observation is nuts.
>
Warren, I'm with you on this. Darjeeling is my hands-down favorite tea, and
I find that the flavor is enhanced if it cools a bit. I'd assumed, as you
suggested, that my ability to taste (or smell, actually) some of the more
subtle nuances was suppressed if the temperature was too high. On the other
hand, cold Darjeeling is not as flavorful as warm to mildly hot.

As a side note, have you ever noticed that if you make a pot of Darjeeling
(especially first flush, which tend to produce a very pale liquor), drink
some, come back an hour or two later to pour another cup that the second cup
is darker than the first? Sometimes I notice that the flavor is slightly
different, too. Can brewed tea "oxidize", just like the leaves?

Regards,
Dean

"Warren C. Liebold" wrote:
>
> I think many of the issues we discuss here are more closely related to
> subjective tastes than anything else. For example, I personally find that
> the flavor of a good darjeeling improves somewhat if the poured tea sits in
> the cup or mug for 10-15 minutes before drinking. That may due to the fact
> that some substances develop as the tea cools. It could also be that my
> taste buds are better with slightly cooler rather than hotter liquids. Some
> of you may think this observation is nuts.

I too think tea tastes better if allowed to cool a bit, even delicate
green teas brewed at below-boiling temp to begin with. I tend also to
let most foods cool down before eating for the same reason. Piping hot
or icy cold seems to be the goal in US restaurants -- possibly for
bacterial concerns -- but you'll often find tepid food served to you in
Japan if the chef deems it correct.

--crymad

Well, things have diverged a bit since my original post, and It's certainly
true that in the bigger picture, we're grateful to have excellent loose-leaf
tea and brewing methods available. And I, too, have noticed flavor enhancement
in tea that's been allowed to cool.

But if I may bring things back around, why does gongfu tea with high
leaf-to-water ratio taste better than leaf compressed in a teaball, given the
same degree of compression and water contact? Could it be that there's _so
much_ more water in the teaball scenario?

Joe

"Joseph Kubera" > asked:

> But if I may bring things back around, why does gongfu tea with high
> leaf-to-water ratio taste better than leaf compressed in a teaball, given
the
> same degree of compression and water contact? Could it be that there's
_so
> much_ more water in the teaball scenario?

Is it really the same degree of compression and water contact? I don't have
a lot of experience with gongfu use, but I thought tea balls end up
compressing the leaves much more.

Warren

"Dean Macinskas" asked:

> As a side note, have you ever noticed that if you make a pot of Darjeeling
> (especially first flush, which tend to produce a very pale liquor), drink
> some, come back an hour or two later to pour another cup that the second
cup
> is darker than the first? Sometimes I notice that the flavor is slightly
> different, too. Can brewed tea "oxidize", just like the leaves?

I'm certainly not an expert on tea chemistry, but it seems very likely that
some of the componants of tea are pretty volatile, and some may develop
through the steeping process, so you'd expect that what you're tasting right
after steeping, after 15 minutes, after two hours and after six hours should
be different.

I used to use a one-quart pot but now I use a four-cup Chatsford pot. I
drink one potful with breakfast and then I do a second steeping and place it
in the fridge for iced tea with dinner (so you can measure my addiction at 8
cups a day). The aged, colder tea never tastes as good as the fresh brew,
but it's still pretty good. But it's clearly missing several levels of
taste that were part of the tea when fresh. I think that's one of the
reasons people often recommend preparing ice tea hot, allowing it to cool at
room temp and then adding ice at serving time, instead of refrigerating the
tea to cool it. Refrigerated aging changes the tea.

Anyway, that's my experience.

Warren

"Warren C. Liebold" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I'm certainly not an expert on tea chemistry, but it seems very likely
that
> some of the componants of tea are pretty volatile, and some may develop
> through the steeping process, so you'd expect that what you're tasting
right
> after steeping, after 15 minutes, after two hours and after six hours
should
> be different.

BTW, I haven't been able to find anything easily accessible on tea chemistry
and this:

http://www.teatalk.com/science/chemistry.htm

goes under the category, "Hey I Took a Lot of Chemistry in College But I
Still Only Understand Ten of the Nouns in This Article"

Warren

(Joseph Kubera) writes:

> Well, things have diverged a bit since my original post, and It's
> certainly true that in the bigger picture, we're grateful to have
> excellent loose-leaf tea and brewing methods available. And I, too,
> have noticed flavor enhancement in tea that's been allowed to cool.
>
> But if I may bring things back around, why does gongfu tea with high
> leaf-to-water ratio taste better than leaf compressed in a teaball,
> given the same degree of compression and water contact? Could it be
> that there's _so much_ more water in the teaball scenario?

Maybe so. Another way of putting it is that in a gongfu pot all the
liquor is in direct contact with leaf whereas with a teaball some of
the liquor is pretty remote from the nearest leaf. I don't want to
pretend to understand the physics and chemistry of steeping, but
surely once a certain amount of the Good Stuff (note technical term
here) exits a leaf it doesn't immediately disperse all the way to the
periphery of the brewing vessel.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Warren C. Liebold" > wrote in message hlink.net>...
> "Joseph Kubera" > asked:
>
> > But if I may bring things back around, why does gongfu tea with high
> > leaf-to-water ratio taste better than leaf compressed in a teaball, given
> the
> > same degree of compression and water contact? Could it be that there's
> _so
> > much_ more water in the teaball scenario?
>
> Is it really the same degree of compression and water contact? I don't have
> a lot of experience with gongfu use, but I thought tea balls end up
> compressing the leaves much more.
>
> Warren

I usually prepare several rounds of gongfu tea per day and I've only
rarely had leaves that didn't unfurl even using tightly scrunched up
teas like tiguanyin and buddha's palm. While I'm not sure why the
leaves aren't as compressed as with a tea ball, I do know that they
aren't. My vote goes to the water:tea ration hypothesis, though.

Cameron