1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
already inside it?

2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
and reuse the same bag.

Thanks.

On Dec 7, 2:08 pm, wrote:
> 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
> already inside it?
>
> 2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
> if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
> and reuse the same bag.
>
> Thanks.


It is a bad idea to prepare tea using a microwave, period. The
microwave de-oxygenates the water and produces a noticeably inferior
brew. It's faster to use an electric kettle and your tea will also
taste better. Tea bags should only be used once.

microwaved water i feel taste not as good in tea.

tea bags i use as long as there's good flavor coming out
which is not often for fine chopped tea-most of the flavor goes out in
the first infusion

if you have 'loose leaf' teabags those might last longer...

On Dec 7, 2:08 pm, wrote:
> 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
> already inside it?
>
> 2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
> if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
> and reuse the same bag.
>
> Thanks.

The only real difference is the amount of time the teabag is sitting
in the water, and/or if the metal staple will create havok with your
microwave. If you have to use a microwave just do the water the least
amount of time to get to temp, and then add the teabag.

It's a rare teabag that stands up to multiple brewings. Some of the
newer pyramid shaped bags which contain real tea leaves can.
Occasionally I'll reuse a regular orange pekoe teabag once because the
second brewing is sometimes better than the first... better being
relative.

HTH,
Dominic

Fran > writes:

> On Dec 7, 2:08 pm, wrote:
> > 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
> > already inside it?
> >
> > 2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
> > if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
> > and reuse the same bag.
> >
> > Thanks.
>
>
> It is a bad idea to prepare tea using a microwave, period. The
> microwave de-oxygenates the water

This is kind of academic to me, as I use neither microwave nor bag,
but I'm curious. How would a microwave remove the oxygen from water?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Dec 7, 3:42 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Fran > writes:
> > On Dec 7, 2:08 pm, wrote:
> > > 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
> > > already inside it?
>
> > > 2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
> > > if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
> > > and reuse the same bag.
>
> > > Thanks.
>
> > It is a bad idea to prepare tea using a microwave, period. The
> > microwave de-oxygenates the water
>
> This is kind of academic to me, as I use neither microwave nor bag,
> but I'm curious. How would a microwave remove the oxygen from water?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Much in the same way that reboiling the same water repeatedly on the
stove de-oxygenates it.

> wrote:
>1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
>already inside it?

Yes, very bad. It is a recipe for bitterness.

>2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
>if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
>and reuse the same bag.

For the most part, the cheap tea used in bags will not stand multiple
steeps. You'll notice that the second time around it loses whatever
nose it had on the first steep, and so the bitterness is more evident.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Lewis Perin > wrote:
>Fran > writes:
>
>> On Dec 7, 2:08 pm, wrote:
>> > 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
>> > already inside it?
>> >
>> > 2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
>> > if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
>> > and reuse the same bag.
>>
>> It is a bad idea to prepare tea using a microwave, period. The
>> microwave de-oxygenates the water
>
>This is kind of academic to me, as I use neither microwave nor bag,
>but I'm curious. How would a microwave remove the oxygen from water?

Extended boiling removes dissolved oxygen from the water. Bringing water
to a boil very rapidly is also more apt to remove dissolved oxygen because
of the vigor of the bubbling, and that's usually what happens in the microwave.

I don't think it's a critical issue, but I can tell the difference between
water boiled on the gas stove and in the microwave. I wouldn't say it's
a critical difference... certainly MUCH less than the difference between
Lipton's and good tea.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Dec 7, 4:33 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

> I don't think it's a critical issue, but I can tell the difference between
> water boiled on the gas stove and in the microwave. I wouldn't say it's
> a critical difference... certainly MUCH less than the difference between
> Lipton's and good tea.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I disagree. I do think it's critical. Good quality water heated to
the proper temperature (boiling for black tea) is the most important
factor. I would much rather have a cup of Lipton tea prepared
properly (and I am no Lipton fan) than the most expensive tea in the
world made from water boiled in the microwave.

I'm always amazed at how some people seem insistent on building a
better mousetrap when it comes to preparing tea. I don't understand
the need to make it in the microwave or the coffee maker or pod
machine, when all that is really needed is a kettle and some fresh
cold water. Keep it simple and don't fix what ain't broke.

Since Nigel hasn't chimed in, allow me to point out that the tea in bags
isn't necessarily cheaper than the same brand of loose/bulk tea. It's a
more finely broken leaf, as required for rapid brewing with limited
circulation. It may also contain desirable flakes of dried tea juice -
"instant tea" - which are more brittle than leaf and will tend to join
the fines in the sifting process.

I personally believe that the microwave argument is bogus for a variety
of reasons; likewise the inference that differences in brewed taste from
different water-heating methods are anything but psychological. If they
have any chemical basis at all, it's probably reduction in CO2 and
associated drop in flavor-affecting multivalent cations. I would be
delighted to see scientific evidence that dissolved oxygen affects tea
taste significantly. Beyond that, heating water to boiling in a kettle
is like to degas it much more effectively than a microwave, since the
kettle superheats the water locally - a good way to ensure efficient
removal of dissolved gases. If you microwave a mugful just to boiling,
it will probably contain more oxygen than equilibrium allows at that
temperature, and much more than if it had been "boiled up."

Note also that when a mug of water is microwaved, heat transfer to the
mug will usually be rapid enough to heat of the container almost as much
as the water. When kettle-boiled water is added to a room-temperature
mug, the overall temperature will immediately drop several degrees.
Since the taste of many teas is a sensitive function of brewing
temperature (with black/red teas especially sensitive to off-boil
brewing), microwave-bashers who don't preheat their brewing vessels may
be fooling themselves about what they're making.

Metal in a microwave is rarely a problem if submerged. Even a spoon in a
mug is often fine, depending on exactly geometry. I used to use a
long-handled metal tea ball in an office microwave, and had no problems
with arcing.

Finally, note that unlike kettles, microwave ovens are rarely dedicated
to heating water. Cross-contamination with food odors is probably common.

-DM

"DogMa" > wrote in message
...
> Beyond that, heating water to boiling in a kettle
> is like to degas it much more effectively than a microwave, since the
> kettle superheats the water locally - a good way to ensure efficient
> removal of dissolved gases.

I don't understand how a kettle can superheat water since it turns to steam
when boiled and evaporates unlike a microwave which can heat water above 212
degrees F with no loss of liquid or even boiling as we see it on the stove.


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

> wrote in message
...
> 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
> already inside it?

From a safety standpoint, no, it's a good idea because doing so keeps the
water from exploding.

For flavor, it's your tastebuds - do what you want.

> 2.) Just curious, how many times do you use a tea bag? Just wondering
> if others use a tea bag for a cup of water and then fill the cup again
> and reuse the same bag.

With some green teabags, I've used them twice. For black tea, once, only.

Again, they're your tastebuds. Experiment and do whatever you like the best.
I know someone who microwaves a new teabag for the first mug, microwaves
another new teabag for the second mug, then microwaves the two used teabags
together for the third mug and says good flavor is in all three mugs of tea.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Dec 8, 7:39 am, DogMa > wrote:

> Since Nigel hasn't chimed in, allow me to point out that the tea in bags
> isn't necessarily cheaper than the same brand of loose/bulk tea. It's a
> more finely broken leaf, as required for rapid brewing with limited
> circulation.

I agree.


> I personally believe that the microwave argument is bogus for a variety
> of reasons; likewise the inference that differences in brewed taste from
> different water-heating methods are anything but psychological. If they
> have any chemical basis at all, it's probably reduction in CO2 and
> associated drop in flavor-affecting multivalent cations. I would be
> delighted to see scientific evidence that dissolved oxygen affects tea
> taste significantly.

I'm guessing that you've never made tea from water boiled in a
microwave. It's not a subtle difference and it's not psychological.
The resulting brew is undrinkable. I don't need scientific evidence
to tell me when something tastes bad. And the reasons why microwaved
water makes poor tea isn't all that important. It just does.

On Dec 8, 8:18 am, "Bluesea" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
> > already inside it?
>
> From a safety standpoint, no, it's a good idea because doing so keeps the
> water from exploding.
>

Huh??

Fran wrote:
> I'm guessing that you've never made tea from water boiled in a
> microwave. It's not a subtle difference and it's not psychological.
> The resulting brew is undrinkable. I don't need scientific evidence
> to tell me when something tastes bad. And the reasons why microwaved
> water makes poor tea isn't all that important. It just does.

Bad guess - please read the rest of the post. In any event, I'm not
arguing that there's no difference, only that the imputation of same to
heating methods is generally vague pseudo-science. I'm a firm pragmatist
when it comes to cuisine, and believe "de gustibus non est disputandum."
It's only when people insist on invoking the authority of science
without bothering to do a little homework that I would affirm that "ars
sine scientia nihil est."

The reasons could be important if one has reason to use a microwave -
e.g., no alternative, as in many office situations - and can easily make
better tea by taking better care. That's why I mentioned food odors,
commonly present in microwave oven as they are fiddly to clean well. The
step-drop in temperature I mentioned is simple to demonstrate. One
might surmise that you don't like microwaved tea because the brew
temperature is hotter than suits you. It's easy enough to check.

Some of us here may appear as rigid fundamentalists, didactic,
intolerant or otherwise inhibiting of tea art. A closer listening might
reveal that we're trying to prevent the propagation of silly, untested
or (in many cases) demonstrably erroneous "received wisdom" that
actually gets in the way of beginners' experimentation to find their own
best preferences.

Have a cup of tea, and speak to personal experience.

-DM

Bluesea wrote:
> I don't understand how a kettle can superheat water since it turns to steam
> when boiled and evaporates unlike a microwave which can heat water above 212
> degrees F with no loss of liquid or even boiling as we see it on the stove.

Same reason that water can be supercooled by tens of degrees when very
clean: boiling and freezing are both nucleation phenomena. That's why
microwaved water can geyser when agitated, and why some chefs use
boiling stones in a large kettle. The superheating isn't much, but
enough to have a large effect on expulsion of dissolved gases. There's
also a significant effect (absent in pre-boil microwaving) due to
"sweeping" of the bulk liquid by rising bubbles, a standard industrial
technique for removing gas from water, organics and even molten glass. I
speak as one who has had to degas all sorts of liquids with methods
ranging from simple boiling and helium sparging to freeze-pump-thaw to
ultrasound and other mechanical approaches.

-DM

On Dec 8, 9:19 am, DogMa > wrote:
> Fran wrote:
>
>
> The reasons could be important if one has reason to use a microwave -
> e.g., no alternative, as in many office situations - and can easily make
> better tea by taking better care. That's why I mentioned food odors,
> commonly present in microwave oven as they are fiddly to clean well. The
> step-drop in temperature I mentioned is simple to demonstrate. One
> might surmise that you don't like microwaved tea because the brew
> temperature is hotter than suits you. It's easy enough to check.

Good point about the food odors -- the main reason I avoid using the
microwave in the office for any reason. But even a microwave that
hasn't been contaminated with other foods does not make a great cup of
tea. I've never gotten any tea from the microwave that wasn't
undrinkably harsh. The microwave is the only thing available in my
office, so I've brought in my own electric kettle so I can get a
decent cup of tea a few times a day.

As for the temperature drop -- another good point. I think that is
the main reason why brewing tea in a teapot makes better tea than
brewing it directly in the mug. I only brew in the mug at work due to
the lack of facilities, but always preheat the mug and cover it while
the tea is brewing. This helps maintain the heat longer and makes a
huge difference in the taste of the tea.

I'm also a "milk in first" person because adding milk last tends to
scald it and just doesn't taste the same. Obviously when brewing in
the mug, "milk in first" is not an option, so when I'm at work, I
always wait a minute or two after brewing my tea to let it cool
slightly before I add any milk.


>
> Some of us here may appear as rigid fundamentalists, didactic,
> intolerant or otherwise inhibiting of tea art. A closer listening might
> reveal that we're trying to prevent the propagation of silly, untested
> or (in many cases) demonstrably erroneous "received wisdom" that
> actually gets in the way of beginners' experimentation to find their own
> best preferences.
>
> Have a cup of tea, and speak to personal experience.
>
> -DM

Fran wrote:
> I've never gotten any tea from the microwave that wasn't
> undrinkably harsh.

Not inconsistent with the overheating proposition, ne?

-DM

"Fran" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 8, 8:18 am, "Bluesea" > wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> >
...
> >
> > > 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
> > > already inside it?
> >
> > From a safety standpoint, no, it's a good idea because doing so keeps
the
> > water from exploding.
>
> Huh??

With a microwave, if conditions are right, it's possible to heat water above
the boiling point with no water movement as we'd see on a stove. Having a
microwave-safe object in the vessel, like a plastic or wood stirrer or
instant coffee or sugar or (ick) teabag, keeps the water from exploding.

It's a dangerous possibility and it happened to me in 2003 when I was
microwaving 24 oz of water in a 32 oz Pyrex glass measuring cup (wide
opening) on a turntable (moving, not still). Maybe the water remained too
stable despite the movement of the turntable, a manual wind-up model that I
had used without incident many times before under similar conditions to
"boil" water for tea. Anyway, the water went from stillness straight to
BLAM! and nearly all the water was blown out of the cup.

Thank God(!) it exploded in the microwave before I opened the door or I
could have been severely burned. It surely did stun the heck out of me and I
switched immediately to using a kettle on the stove.

I did some research and learned that water typically explodes *after* being
removed from the microwave. For more info:
http://www.snopes.com/science/microwave.asp.

For an MPG or Quicktime movie, and more info, please see:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/superheating.html.

From that evening until February 2005 when a friend saw a TV program that
said that inserting a microwave-safe object like a wooden stick or plastic
stirrer would make it okay, I heated water solely in my kettle. Even now, I
use the microwave to heat water only for green or white teas which need
water below the boiling point. I always have a wooden stick in the cup and
zap it for no more than 2 minutes.

May a word to the wise be sufficient. Two online acquaintances said it's
happened to them, too. My real life friends said, "Didn't you know?"


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Bluesea" > wrote in message
...
>
> My real life friends...

Sorry, I meant real world as compared to cyberspace. We're all really alive,
aren't we?

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Bluesea > wrote:
>"DogMa" > wrote in message
...
>> Beyond that, heating water to boiling in a kettle
>> is like to degas it much more effectively than a microwave, since the
>> kettle superheats the water locally - a good way to ensure efficient
>> removal of dissolved gases.
>
>I don't understand how a kettle can superheat water since it turns to steam
>when boiled and evaporates unlike a microwave which can heat water above 212
>degrees F with no loss of liquid or even boiling as we see it on the stove.

It's the same thing.

The only reason you see water superheating in a microwave is because the
heating is very rapid and you're using a vessel with smooth walls and few
nucleation points for the bubbles to start.

The only reason you don't see water superheating in a kettle is because
the sides aren't completely smooth, so there are plenty of places for
the bubbles to begin, and the heating is comparatively slow because there
are fewer watts going directly into the water, so there is more time for
it to start.

Scientific American had an article in the eighties on the subject that
is really worth looking up. I believe it was one of Jearl Walker's
Amateur Scientist columns.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Fran > wrote:
>I'm guessing that you've never made tea from water boiled in a
>microwave. It's not a subtle difference and it's not psychological.
>The resulting brew is undrinkable. I don't need scientific evidence
>to tell me when something tastes bad. And the reasons why microwaved
>water makes poor tea isn't all that important. It just does.

No, the reasons are _very_ important. Once we know the reasons, we can
prevent it from happening.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Fran > wrote:
>On Dec 8, 8:18 am, "Bluesea" > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > 1.) Is it a bad idea to microwave a cup of tea with the tea bag
>> > already inside it?
>>
>> From a safety standpoint, no, it's a good idea because doing so keeps the
>> water from exploding.
>
>Huh??

Water won't superheat if the tea bag is in there.

If you're worried about superheating, a better solution is to get an
earthenware mug with a rough glazed surface.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Bluesea > wrote:
>It's a dangerous possibility and it happened to me in 2003 when I was
>microwaving 24 oz of water in a 32 oz Pyrex glass measuring cup (wide
>opening) on a turntable (moving, not still). Maybe the water remained too
>stable despite the movement of the turntable, a manual wind-up model that I
>had used without incident many times before under similar conditions to
>"boil" water for tea. Anyway, the water went from stillness straight to
>BLAM! and nearly all the water was blown out of the cup.

If you do this regularly, get a diamond engraver and put a couple lines
down the side of the cup on the inside. This will provide nucleation
points to start boiling.

You can also buy a "boil over preventer" or "pot watcher" made of
acid-etched glass. They used to be free handouts at the Corning museum.
Problem is that you can't leave one in a measuring cup all the time because
it's displacing some of whatever you're measuring.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"DogMa" > wrote in message
...
> Bluesea wrote:
> > I don't understand how a kettle can superheat water since it turns to
steam
> > when boiled and evaporates unlike a microwave which can heat water above
212
> > degrees F with no loss of liquid or even boiling as we see it on the
stove.
>
> Same reason that water can be supercooled by tens of degrees when very
> clean: boiling and freezing are both nucleation phenomena. That's why
> microwaved water can geyser when agitated, and why some chefs use
> boiling stones in a large kettle. The superheating isn't much, but
> enough to have a large effect on expulsion of dissolved gases. There's
> also a significant effect (absent in pre-boil microwaving) due to
> "sweeping" of the bulk liquid by rising bubbles, a standard industrial
> technique for removing gas from water, organics and even molten glass. I
> speak as one who has had to degas all sorts of liquids with methods
> ranging from simple boiling and helium sparging to freeze-pump-thaw to
> ultrasound and other mechanical approaches.

I had to look up boiling stones
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_stones) and, I'm sorry, but I still
don't understand. Are we using different definitions? Please see:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/superheat
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/supercool
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling.

By your reply, I'm thinking that you mean heating/cooling faster, not to a
higher/lower temperature to boil/freeze. Is that right? My understanding of
superheating matches the following from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheating:

"Liquid would not be superheated if the liquid is heated via heated
container (e.g. water in a pot on top of a stove) because the heated
container surface that heats up the liquid provides nucleation sites for the
liquid to boil off and cool down. This is in contrast to a microwave, where
the water is directly heated via microwaves and not by the container."

Is it possible that we're saying the same thing and I don't recognize that
we are?

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Here's my take from a tea-novice (but no longer just a tea-newbie).

When I first started with this "loose tea" business, I always
microwaved my water. And it was sufficient. And as I became more into
tea, I invested in an electric kettle (and an automatic tea maker-
because I'm still lazy). I could taste a difference from the
microwaved water. Maybe it was just psychological, but I did notice it
- especially with flavored teas. It may also be the "food odors" and
such, too. I don't clean out my microwave as much as I should :-x

Now, when I brew tea, I always try to use loose leaf, kettle boiled
water. Of course, I don't always have that convenience, usually at
work or when I'm traveling. While I think loose leaf teas are a better
investment, I'm not "above" using a bag or microwaved water if I have
to. It tastes good enough. And if I want tea, I'd rather go for
something than nothing. Even if it's bigelow, although I really REALLY
have to want tea to use bigelow.

Also, I always boil my milk in the microwave when I'm making chai
(with the chai in the microwave, as well). It tastes fine to me.

And as for the tea bag issue, I wouldn't use them more than twice. The
first time they can be good, the second time they're all right. The
third time, there's really not much flavor left and you'll just get
"kinda-tea flavored water".

On Dec 8, 9:19 am, DogMa > wrote:
> Fran wrote:
> > I'm guessing that you've never made tea from water boiled in a
> > microwave. It's not a subtle difference and it's not psychological.
> > The resulting brew is undrinkable. I don't need scientific evidence
> > to tell me when something tastes bad. And the reasons why microwaved
> > water makes poor tea isn't all that important. It just does.
>
> Bad guess - please read the rest of the post. In any event, I'm not
> arguing that there's no difference, only that the imputation of same to
> heating methods is generally vague pseudo-science. I'm a firm pragmatist
> when it comes to cuisine, and believe "de gustibus non est disputandum."
> It's only when people insist on invoking the authority of science
> without bothering to do a little homework that I would affirm that "ars
> sine scientia nihil est."
>
> The reasons could be important if one has reason to use a microwave -
> e.g., no alternative, as in many office situations - and can easily make
> better tea by taking better care. That's why I mentioned food odors,
> commonly present in microwave oven as they are fiddly to clean well. The
> step-drop in temperature I mentioned is simple to demonstrate. One
> might surmise that you don't like microwaved tea because the brew
> temperature is hotter than suits you. It's easy enough to check.
>
> Some of us here may appear as rigid fundamentalists, didactic,
> intolerant or otherwise inhibiting of tea art. A closer listening might
> reveal that we're trying to prevent the propagation of silly, untested
> or (in many cases) demonstrably erroneous "received wisdom" that
> actually gets in the way of beginners' experimentation to find their own
> best preferences.
>
> Have a cup of tea, and speak to personal experience.
>
> -DM

i did a double blind test on myself - heating water itself in the mw,
without any nucleation enablers,
and the microwaved water tasted different, and the tea infused tasted
different,
not major
but distinctly different and to me somewhat un-enjoyable

http://tgfop.wordpress.com/2007/03/0...ling-electric/.

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Bluesea > wrote:
> >"DogMa" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Beyond that, heating water to boiling in a kettle
> >> is like to degas it much more effectively than a microwave, since the
> >> kettle superheats the water locally - a good way to ensure efficient
> >> removal of dissolved gases.
> >
> >I don't understand how a kettle can superheat water since it turns to
steam
> >when boiled and evaporates unlike a microwave which can heat water above
212
> >degrees F with no loss of liquid or even boiling as we see it on the
stove.
>
> It's the same thing.
>
> The only reason you see water superheating in a microwave is because the
> heating is very rapid and you're using a vessel with smooth walls and few
> nucleation points for the bubbles to start.
>
> The only reason you don't see water superheating in a kettle is because
> the sides aren't completely smooth, so there are plenty of places for
> the bubbles to begin, and the heating is comparatively slow because there
> are fewer watts going directly into the water, so there is more time for
> it to start.
>
> Scientific American had an article in the eighties on the subject that
> is really worth looking up. I believe it was one of Jearl Walker's
> Amateur Scientist columns.

Thanks, Scott.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"SN" > wrote in message
...
> i did a double blind test on myself - heating water itself in the mw,
> without any nucleation enablers,
> and the microwaved water tasted different, and the tea infused tasted
> different,
> not major
> but distinctly different and to me somewhat un-enjoyable
>
>
http://tgfop.wordpress.com/2007/03/0...ling-electric/.

"Flat" is a good description and I agree.

(Nice glasses, BTW.)


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Responding (for some reason) to several posts:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The only reason you see water superheating in a microwave is because the
> heating is very rapid and you're using a vessel with smooth walls and few
> nucleation points for the bubbles to start.
>
> The only reason you don't see water superheating in a kettle is because
> the sides aren't completely smooth, so there are plenty of places for
> the bubbles to begin, and the heating is comparatively slow because there
> are fewer watts going directly into the water, so there is more time for
> it to start.

Sort of. Nucleation requires addition of enough energy to overcome the
newly created bubble's surface energy. In a microwave, heat is added
over a large volume at low energy density, so local thermal gradients
are low, there is nil turbulence (as distinct from laminar convection)
and superheating only when the bulk is quite warm. With a heating
element, energy is deposited in a turbulent and unstable boundary layer,
guaranteeing local superheating and boiling while the bulk is still
cool. We all know what that sounds and looks like: large bubbles formed
at the element or bottom surface disappear before surfacing as they are
cooled by the bulk. The issue is not rate of energy deposition (power),
but spatial density of same.

wrote:
> Also, I always boil my milk in the microwave when I'm making chai
> (with the chai in the microwave, as well). It tastes fine to me.
>
> And as for the tea bag issue, I wouldn't use them more than twice. The
> first time they can be good, the second time they're all right. The
> third time, there's really not much flavor left and you'll just get
> "kinda-tea flavored water".

Microwaving milk (vs. heating in a pot) can limit caramelization, for
those who prefer the more raw taste. As to bags, I presume we're staying
with black/red tea. Most greens and oolongs are far from their best at
boiling. At more modest temperatures, they may well deliver several good
steeps. When I started drinking bagged Japanese green tea many years
ago, I quickly learned to use coolish water. First steep bitter, second
and third perfect, fourth OK but weak. I was pleased on my first
business trip to Japan to find my colleagues and customer doing exactly
the same thing.

Bluesea wrote:
> Having a microwave-safe object in the vessel, like a plastic or wood
> stirrer or instant coffee or sugar or (ick) teabag, keeps the water
> from exploding. being removed from the microwave.
>
> From that evening until February 2005 when a friend saw a TV program
> that said that inserting a microwave-safe object like a wooden stick
> or plastic stirrer would make it okay, I heated water solely in my
> kettle.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> If you do this regularly, get a diamond engraver and put a couple
> lines down the side of the cup on the inside. This will provide
> nucleation points to start boiling.
>
> You can also buy a "boil over preventer" or "pot watcher" made of
> acid-etched glass.

These things can all work, but not reliably or repeatedly. Any dry
powder like salt or sugar will work well until it's dissolved due to
both rough surfaces and adsorbed gas. Dry wooden spoons, ditto. A fresh
teabag will work, but typically not a wet used one. Almost anything
else, even roughened glass, will eventually passivate for a wide range
of reasons. Chemists have a bunch of tricks like active stirring that
aren't practical or aesthetic at home. A bit of clean gravel will work
(we call them "boiling stones") as long as it's dried completely between
uses. A cute reusable device is glass beads - like tiny marbles - called
boiling beads. These work by bouncing around and making a fresh burst of
small bubbles at each bounce. But the liquid can still superheat unless
the container is shaken to start the process. A toothpick or single dry
tealeaf (can be used) would work.

-DM

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Bluesea > wrote:
> >It's a dangerous possibility and it happened to me in 2003 when I was
> >microwaving 24 oz of water in a 32 oz Pyrex glass measuring cup (wide
> >opening) on a turntable (moving, not still). Maybe the water remained too
> >stable despite the movement of the turntable, a manual wind-up model that
I
> >had used without incident many times before under similar conditions to
> >"boil" water for tea. Anyway, the water went from stillness straight to
> >BLAM! and nearly all the water was blown out of the cup.
>
> If you do this regularly, get a diamond engraver and put a couple lines
> down the side of the cup on the inside. This will provide nucleation
> points to start boiling.
>
> You can also buy a "boil over preventer" or "pot watcher" made of
> acid-etched glass. They used to be free handouts at the Corning museum.
> Problem is that you can't leave one in a measuring cup all the time
because
> it's displacing some of whatever you're measuring.

Thanks, that's good to know.

I don't do it anymore, however. My tastebuds are improving . I got a
Mini-Ibis electric kettle earlier this year while I was in LA on a road
trip, dying for something good to drink at night in my room, and now use it
instead of a microwave. I have to let it cool, of course, but I just pour
the water into an open container, currently a large polycarbonate mug, and
let the water sit while I go do something else.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Dec 8, 11:57 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Fran > wrote:

>
> No, the reasons are _very_ important. Once we know the reasons, we can
> prevent it from happening.
> --scott


We can prevent it from happening by not using a microwave to make
tea. <G>

Bluesea > wrote:
>"SN" > wrote in message
...
>> i did a double blind test on myself - heating water itself in the mw,
>> without any nucleation enablers,
>> and the microwaved water tasted different, and the tea infused tasted
>> different,
>> not major
>> but distinctly different and to me somewhat un-enjoyable
>>
>>
>http://tgfop.wordpress.com/2007/03/0...ling-electric/.
>
>"Flat" is a good description and I agree.

Okay, now try making tea this way, putting it into a thermos, and shaking
it for 20 seconds or so. Pour it into a cup and try it. Is it less flat?

This is a quick way to re-introduce some dissolved oxygen.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Fran > wrote:
>On Dec 8, 11:57 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> Fran > wrote:
>
>> No, the reasons are _very_ important. Once we know the reasons, we can
>> prevent it from happening.
>
>We can prevent it from happening by not using a microwave to make
>tea. <G>

I wish I could, but I am often on the road working in offices and facilities
where the microwave is the only solution. People look at me strangely enough
for using loose tea and an infuser.

I have on occasion made green tea from the near-boiling water that comes
out of Continental water-cooled radio transmitters, though.

I agree that microwaved water is a little flatter, and I think it is indeed
because of the dissolved oxygen issue, but I'd like a solution. I pour tea
between cups a few times and I think that minimizes the differences, but
I'd like to hear other experiences.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

> I'm always amazed at how some people seem insistent on building a
> better mousetrap when it comes to preparing tea. I don't understand
> the need to make it in the microwave or the coffee maker or pod
> machine, when all that is really needed is a kettle and some fresh
> cold water. Keep it simple and don't fix what ain't broke.

While I don't prepare water in the microwave, something about your opinion
strikes me as needlessly emotional and reactionary. I doubt very much that
heating with microwaves vs heating with electricity or gas conductively
through metal is going to "impart" flavor into the water.

The theory here rests on the fact that someone would excessively boil the
water in the microwave and therefore "deoxygenate" it. Assuming they didn't
do this, nobody here has posited a scientific reason (with any empirical
proof or at the very least evidence) as to why the water would taste any
different.

On Dec 10, 9:54 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Okay, now try making tea this way, putting it into a thermos, and shaking
> it for 20 seconds or so. Pour it into a cup and try it. Is it less flat?
>
> This is a quick way to re-introduce some dissolved oxygen.
> --scott

well i think that would be very inefficient in re-introducing a fair
amount of 'air' into the liquid.
as i see it it would only create lots of frothing from the splashing
and collision of liquid and the walls. i personally dont like frothy
tea.
also thinking about liquids with bubbles in them, shaking it wont put
more bubbles in, but just excite them out of the liquid.

Slint Flig > wrote:
>The theory here rests on the fact that someone would excessively boil the
>water in the microwave and therefore "deoxygenate" it. Assuming they didn't
>do this, nobody here has posited a scientific reason (with any empirical
>proof or at the very least evidence) as to why the water would taste any
>different.

I think the issue is that it's impossible _not_ to excessively boil the
water in the microwave, because it comes to a fast boil so abruptly.

Remember a typical microwave is throwing a kilowatt of forward power out,
and it's all going directly into your one cup of water. That's a hell of
a lot of heat in a small place.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Dec 11, 4:52 am, "Slint Flig" > wrote:
> > I'm always amazed at how some people seem insistent on building a
> > better mousetrap when it comes to preparing tea. I don't understand
> > the need to make it in the microwave or the coffee maker or pod
> > machine, when all that is really needed is a kettle and some fresh
> > cold water. Keep it simple and don't fix what ain't broke.
>
> While I don't prepare water in the microwave, something about your opinion
> strikes me as needlessly emotional and reactionary. I doubt very much that
> heating with microwaves vs heating with electricity or gas conductively
> through metal is going to "impart" flavor into the water.
>

If you say so ....

On Dec 8, 8:42 pm, Fran > wrote:

> We can prevent it from happening by not using a microwave to make
> tea. <G>


As I posted on Sept 25th 2007 (see archives) "During my Unilever
Research
days my team spent a few months trying to make a decent cup of tea
using a range of microwave ovens, waters and containers. Commercial
confidentiality and a fast failing memory preclude my giving details
but suffice to say the microwave method was never included on the
pack
instructions (in the UK at least)."

Various teas made in various ways with a range of waters in a series
of microwave oven types and powers (clean not with kitchen smells
included) all failed to match the quality of control teas brewed in
the traditional British way. While Marketing Dept dearly wanted a
microwave "claim" we could not deliver. This was sharp end not blue
sky so we never homed in on the science, nor yet have I subsequently
heard anything that convinces me of the real reason(s) for the failure
of the microwave oven to produce a good cuppa - it just don't.

Nigel at Teacraft

On Dec 13, 12:11 pm, Nigel > wrote:
>
> As I posted on Sept 25th 2007 (see archives) "During my Unilever
> Research
> days my team spent a few months trying to make a decent cup of tea
> using a range of microwave ovens, waters and containers. Commercial
> confidentiality and a fast failing memory preclude my giving details
> but suffice to say the microwave method was never included on the
> pack
> instructions (in the UK at least)."
>
> Various teas made in various ways with a range of waters in a series
> of microwave oven types and powers (clean not with kitchen smells
> included) all failed to match the quality of control teas brewed in
> the traditional British way. While Marketing Dept dearly wanted a
> microwave "claim" we could not deliver. This was sharp end not blue
> sky so we never homed in on the science, nor yet have I subsequently
> heard anything that convinces me of the real reason(s) for the failure
> of the microwave oven to produce a good cuppa - it just don't.
>
> Nigel at Teacraft

Thanks, Nigel.