Just another thing I don´t understand about Pu-Erh lies right next to
me in that storage box.
It´s one of those Pu-Erh mushrooms I purchased from some Tibetans
during my last days back in Darjeeling. This piece has reportedly been
manufactured in Kalimpong, just around the corner. As mentioned before,
those folks up there have their own Pu-Erh production going.
First, does anyone think that they use any special imported "Pu-Erh
kin" in their production, or is it rather the local microbiology
[climate, etc...] working for them ? I have to add that I never quite
believed in the need for, or better the existance of some kind of a
narrowly defined "Pu-Erh kin" [of a kind you would buy in small bottles
like kefir cultures, brewing yeast or whatever] but would rather accept
a more refined way of processing those cakes, based on experiences with
local microbiological and climatic factors as an explanation. Any
debunking insights here ?
Second, those mushrooms almost look like they´ve been made from some
kind of backyard clippings, more so than beeing based on distinct tea
leaves, my example resembling a moreless compact cone of partially
mashed stems and twigs without too many leaves around (cheap, cheap]. I
should mention that the resulting brew tastes like any other not too
sophisticated cooked Pu-Erh, with those "earthy", "muddy" aspects more
pronounced than anything else.
Now, does one really need "fine tea leaves" to produce a "fine" Pu-Erh
or does any other leaf-based backyard produce result in a pretty
similar brew, thanks to that all-dominating lengthy microbacterial
"decomposition" process ?
Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different kind
of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
[Sorry if this has been adressed before, I must have missed it]
PS: I´ll certainly have a closer look at that factory during my next
stay up there.

Karsten [ready for the sack]

how was darjeeling I want to go!!!1

Zarky Zork wrote:
> how was darjeeling I want to go!!!1

Awesome people, nature, food and TEA. I spent some years in the
Himalayas, definetely one of my most favorite spots on this planet.
They´re about the only place that old rambler feels "at home" (that
doesn´t mean too much though).

Karsten [Brahmaputra calling, back to that XXX Assam blend]

writes:

> Just another thing I don´t understand about Pu-Erh lies right next to
> me in that storage box.
> It´s one of those Pu-Erh mushrooms I purchased from some Tibetans
> during my last days back in Darjeeling. This piece has reportedly been
> manufactured in Kalimpong, just around the corner.

Really? In Kalimpong?!! I feel like a fool to think I once spent a
day wandering around that town aimlessly when I could have been trying
to track down that factory. Do you know anything more than you've
already said?

> As mentioned before, those folks up there have their own Pu-Erh
> production going. First, does anyone think that they use any
> special imported "Pu-Erh kin" in their production, or is it rather
> the local microbiology [climate, etc...] working for them ? I have
> to add that I never quite believed in the need for, or better the
> existance of some kind of a narrowly defined "Pu-Erh kin" [of a kind
> you would buy in small bottles like kefir cultures, brewing yeast or
> whatever] but would rather accept a more refined way of processing
> those cakes, based on experiences with local microbiological and
> climatic factors as an explanation. Any debunking insights here ?

I don't think it's possible to know a priori what, if anything, they
add to the pile. By the way, technically this tea wouldn't be Pu'er
if they were using Indian leaf or, in fact, anything other than the Da
Ye cultivar from Yunnan.

> Second, those mushrooms almost look like they´ve been made from some
> kind of backyard clippings, more so than beeing based on distinct tea
> leaves, my example resembling a moreless compact cone of partially
> mashed stems and twigs without too many leaves around (cheap, cheap]. I
> should mention that the resulting brew tastes like any other not too
> sophisticated cooked Pu-Erh, with those "earthy", "muddy" aspects more
> pronounced than anything else.
> Now, does one really need "fine tea leaves" to produce a "fine" Pu-Erh
> or does any other leaf-based backyard produce result in a pretty
> similar brew, thanks to that all-dominating lengthy microbacterial
> "decomposition" process ?

Cooked Pu'er varies a lot in quality, and the quality of the leaves
has got to be a part of this. Remember that the Wuliangshan cooked
*and* raw teas shared a fruity character?

> Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
> kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?

Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!

> [Sorry if this has been adressed before, I must have missed it]
> PS: I´ll certainly have a closer look at that factory during my next
> stay up there.

Please do!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

wrote:
> Just another thing I don´t understand about Pu-Erh lies right next to
> me in that storage box.
> It´s one of those Pu-Erh mushrooms I purchased from some Tibetans
> during my last days back in Darjeeling. This piece has reportedly been
> manufactured in Kalimpong, just around the corner. As mentioned before,
> those folks up there have their own Pu-Erh production going.
> First, does anyone think that they use any special imported "Pu-Erh
> kin" in their production, or is it rather the local microbiology
> [climate, etc...] working for them ? I have to add that I never quite
> believed in the need for, or better the existance of some kind of a
> narrowly defined "Pu-Erh kin" [of a kind you would buy in small bottles
> like kefir cultures, brewing yeast or whatever] but would rather accept
> a more refined way of processing those cakes, based on experiences with
> local microbiological and climatic factors as an explanation. Any
> debunking insights here ?
> Second, those mushrooms almost look like they´ve been made from some
> kind of backyard clippings, more so than beeing based on distinct tea
> leaves, my example resembling a moreless compact cone of partially
> mashed stems and twigs without too many leaves around (cheap, cheap]. I
> should mention that the resulting brew tastes like any other not too
> sophisticated cooked Pu-Erh, with those "earthy", "muddy" aspects more
> pronounced than anything else.
> Now, does one really need "fine tea leaves" to produce a "fine" Pu-Erh
> or does any other leaf-based backyard produce result in a pretty
> similar brew, thanks to that all-dominating lengthy microbacterial
> "decomposition" process ?
> Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different kind
> of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
> [Sorry if this has been adressed before, I must have missed it]
> PS: I´ll certainly have a closer look at that factory during my next
> stay up there.
>
> Karsten [ready for the sack]

There's no real culture that needs to be brought around, and whatever
there is, it's kept way secret. Menghai, for example, has supposedly a
"Menghai" taste because they have basically developed their own culture
after all these years, and that's something nobody else can get. The
whole cooked puerh process is quite secretive, and generally you won't
be allowed to visit the cooked puerh workshop at all, no matter who you
are. It's the one thing that sets the big operations apart from the
small ones. Everybody can do raw cakes.

Any evidence of chemical tampering ala the tobacco industry?

Thanks,
Jim

MarshalN wrote:
> There's no real culture that needs to be brought around, and whatever
> there is, it's kept way secret. Menghai, for example, has supposedly a
> "Menghai" taste because they have basically developed their own culture
> after all these years, and that's something nobody else can get. The
> whole cooked puerh process is quite secretive, and generally you won't
> be allowed to visit the cooked puerh workshop at all, no matter who you
> are. It's the one thing that sets the big operations apart from the
> small ones. Everybody can do raw cakes.

Lewis Perin wrote:
> > Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> > similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
> > kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> > Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
>
> Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!

What exactly can you try in East Frisia? Sorry for the hijack, but I
have a Frisian fetish.

Alex

"Alex" > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> > > similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
> > > kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> > > Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
> >
> > Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!
>
> What exactly can you try in East Frisia? Sorry for the hijack, but I
> have a Frisian fetish.

Composting local leaves into ... Pfui'er? My point, I suppose, was
that, freed of the requirement to use C. sinensis, Karsten could mulch
leaves and press cakes more or less anywhere photosynthesis is
practiced.

Aren't you glad you asked?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

MarshalN wrote:

> There's no real culture that needs to be brought around, and whatever
> there is, it's kept way secret. Menghai, for example, has supposedly a
> "Menghai" taste because they have basically developed their own culture
> after all these years, and that's something nobody else can get. The
> whole cooked puerh process is quite secretive, and generally you won't
> be allowed to visit the cooked puerh workshop at all, no matter who you
> are. It's the one thing that sets the big operations apart from the
> small ones. Everybody can do raw cakes.

This is actually something I have been hunting for a reputable
reference on for quite a while now. I have heard "rumors" that some
factories will introduce some puerh from a previous batch to inoculate
the current batch, sort of like they do with sour dough bread, but I
have never found a solid reputable reference that confirms this. Like
you say, they are all VERY secretive about it often citing "State
Secret" etc as if they would be prosecuted if they told.

I do have a series of roughly about 8 pictures from one shop showing
various stages of the process, while the series is interesting it is by
no means definitive. I will post it again after Halloween is over. On
the surface it appears that it is a simple composting like process
where the tea is kept in big piles, turned frequently, and the
temperature of the pile is closely monitored and kept intentionally
very hot (hence cooked) although I have never found out what exact
temperature is desired. I think the turning time schedule, depth of the
pile, temperature, moisture level, etc are the variables that are so
closely guarded, particularly the variables that are reproducible. This
type of composting would naturally lead to certain bacterias forming,
thriving, and dying throughout the process. I have also heard of
batches where the process got away from them and the tea had so much
residual bacterial activity that it made people sick.

-------
Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

wrote:
> Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different kind
> of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
> [Sorry if this has been adressed before, I must have missed it]
> PS: I´ll certainly have a closer look at that factory during my next
> stay up there.
>
> Karsten [ready for the sack]

A good point to ponder, I've actually thought about this a couple times
since being part of this NG. I'd love to try Puerh-like tea based on
DJ, Sencha, Keemun, etc. I think some teas would absolutely suffer and
be rendered undrinkable, but others may be surprising. (I think certain
DJ's would be pretty damn good, a nice earthier muscatel flavor would
be cool I think) I don't think I'd be drinking any of my bonsai
clippings however Maybe Kudingcha though (ilex/holly leaf) it may
produce something neat with the bitterness.

I do think you need a fairly hearty leaf to begin with, and green/white
may not work at all, but I wish there were more experimentation with
tea than there is. This sounds like a worthy trial to undertake if only
anyone would. And to be honest I could be completely ignorant of prior
attempts in the past to do just this, but with modern renewed interest
and processing you would think it could be done.

- Dominic

"Dominic T." > writes:

> [...Pu'er-like tea using non-traditional sources for leaf...]
> I do think you need a fairly hearty leaf to begin with, and green/white
> may not work at all, but I wish there were more experimentation with
> tea than there is. This sounds like a worthy trial to undertake if only
> anyone would. And to be honest I could be completely ignorant of prior
> attempts in the past to do just this, but with modern renewed interest
> and processing you would think it could be done.

There are lots of teas (mostly cooked) like this from various parts of
China under the category of hei cha (black tea.) There's a big market
for these in Tibet, Mongolia, and western China. There are also teas
of this kind from Indochina.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Alex" > writes:
>
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > > Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> > > > similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
> > > > kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> > > > Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
> > >
> > > Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!
> >
> > What exactly can you try in East Frisia? Sorry for the hijack, but I
> > have a Frisian fetish.
>
> Composting local leaves into ... Pfui'er? My point, I suppose, was
> that, freed of the requirement to use C. sinensis, Karsten could mulch
> leaves and press cakes more or less anywhere photosynthesis is
> practiced.
>
> Aren't you glad you asked?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Kind of. I guess I was hoping that the Frisians were making rose hip
pu'er or something like that. I've learned my lesson.

Mike Petro wrote:

> This is actually something I have been hunting for a reputable
> reference on for quite a while now. I have heard "rumors" that some
> factories will introduce some puerh from a previous batch to inoculate
> the current batch, sort of like they do with sour dough bread, but I
> have never found a solid reputable reference that confirms this. Like
> you say, they are all VERY secretive about it often citing "State
> Secret" etc as if they would be prosecuted if they told.

I believe Menghai does that, and the others I suspect as well. People
say there's a Menghai taste. It comes from somewhere.

Lew wrote:

> Really? In Kalimpong?!!
Yep !

> I feel like a fool to think I once spent a
> day wandering around that town aimlessly when I could have been trying
> to track down that factory. Do you know anything more than you've
> already said?

Not too much Lew, when I showed that particular shroom to my tea guru
he just whinced [he only drinks DJs] and mentioned that place in
Kalimpong. He said he´d know those guys and we could have a look
around during my next trip.
I also remember a pic of that place but don´t remember who showed it
to me. Pretty basic to say the least.

>> or better the
>> existance of some kind of a narrowly defined "Pu-Erh kin" [of a kind
>> you would buy in small bottles like kefir cultures, brewing yeast or
>> whatever] but would rather accept a more refined way of processing
>> those cakes, based on experiences with local microbiological and
>> climatic factors as an explanation. Any debunking insights here ?

> I don't think it's possible to know a priori what, if anything, they add to the pile.

I wonder if they add anything of that sort at all. I need to get there
myself next time.

> By the way, technically this tea wouldn't be Pu'er if they were using Indian leaf or, in fact, anything other than the Da
Ye cultivar from Yunnan.

I could happily live with the term "Himalayan Pu-Erh" or something like
that. I´m just wondering if any of our north indian friends is lurking
around: Sidman, SMC, or Rajiv, hehe. Don´t want to press the thinking
out loud department too much now. Guess what I discussed with my tea
guru the last time around.

> Cooked Pu'er varies a lot in quality, and the quality of the leaves
> has got to be a part of this. Remember that the Wuliangshan cooked
> *and* raw teas shared a fruity character?

I´m still not too much into Pu-Erhs, but compared to all the stuff I
tried in China and that humble stash I keep over here I wouldn´t rank
that Kalimpong anywhere near to the top. Once you add those lumps of
rancid butter and some soda/salt it doesn´t really need to be any
decent stuff at all.

>> Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
>> similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
>> kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
>> Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?

> Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!

Hey Lew, I didn´t mean to sound weird here, I´m serious [at least as
serious as I can get, forget about the bonsai c.]. And then there is
marketing [East-Friesean longevity nettle-shrooms, yadda yadda].

Karsten



Lewis Perin wrote:
> writes:
>
> > Just another thing I don´t understand about Pu-Erh lies right next to
> > me in that storage box.
> > It´s one of those Pu-Erh mushrooms I purchased from some Tibetans
> > during my last days back in Darjeeling. This piece has reportedly been
> > manufactured in Kalimpong, just around the corner.
>
> Really? In Kalimpong?!! I feel like a fool to think I once spent a
> day wandering around that town aimlessly when I could have been trying
> to track down that factory. Do you know anything more than you've
> already said?
>
> > As mentioned before, those folks up there have their own Pu-Erh
> > production going. First, does anyone think that they use any
> > special imported "Pu-Erh kin" in their production, or is it rather
> > the local microbiology [climate, etc...] working for them ? I have
> > to add that I never quite believed in the need for, or better the
> > existance of some kind of a narrowly defined "Pu-Erh kin" [of a kind
> > you would buy in small bottles like kefir cultures, brewing yeast or
> > whatever] but would rather accept a more refined way of processing
> > those cakes, based on experiences with local microbiological and
> > climatic factors as an explanation. Any debunking insights here ?
>
> I don't think it's possible to know a priori what, if anything, they
> add to the pile. By the way, technically this tea wouldn't be Pu'er
> if they were using Indian leaf or, in fact, anything other than the Da
> Ye cultivar from Yunnan.
>
> > Second, those mushrooms almost look like they´ve been made from some
> > kind of backyard clippings, more so than beeing based on distinct tea
> > leaves, my example resembling a moreless compact cone of partially
> > mashed stems and twigs without too many leaves around (cheap, cheap]. I
> > should mention that the resulting brew tastes like any other not too
> > sophisticated cooked Pu-Erh, with those "earthy", "muddy" aspects more
> > pronounced than anything else.
> > Now, does one really need "fine tea leaves" to produce a "fine" Pu-Erh
> > or does any other leaf-based backyard produce result in a pretty
> > similar brew, thanks to that all-dominating lengthy microbacterial
> > "decomposition" process ?
>
> Cooked Pu'er varies a lot in quality, and the quality of the leaves
> has got to be a part of this. Remember that the Wuliangshan cooked
> *and* raw teas shared a fruity character?
>
> > Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> > similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
> > kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> > Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
>
> Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!
>
> > [Sorry if this has been adressed before, I must have missed it]
> > PS: I´ll certainly have a closer look at that factory during my next
> > stay up there.
>
> Please do!
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Sorry for hijacking this all the way back but just to feed your fetish,
the national sports over here a "Schlickrutschen" [skidding through
low-tide mud] and "Bosseln" [canal bowling].

I´m currently trying to get away from here, so much about choices.

Karsten [2006 Spring Alishan]



Alex wrote:
> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> > > similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
> > > kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> > > Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
> >
> > Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!
>
> What exactly can you try in East Frisia? Sorry for the hijack, but I
> have a Frisian fetish.
>
> Alex

Lewis Perin wrote:
> Composting local leaves into ... Pfui'er? My point, I suppose, was
> that, freed of the requirement to use C. sinensis, Karsten could mulch
> leaves and press cakes more or less anywhere photosynthesis is
> practiced.

The nettle man is seated at the table in the laboratory of the Utility
Nettle Research Kitchen. Reaching for an oversized titanium spoon he
gathers an intimate quantity of dried poop remnants ...

K...

Dominic wrote:
> A good point to ponder, I've actually thought about this a couple times
> since being part of this NG. I'd love to try Puerh-like tea based on
> DJ, Sencha, Keemun, etc. I think some teas would absolutely suffer and
> be rendered undrinkable, but others may be surprising. (I think certain
> DJ's would be pretty damn good, a nice earthier muscatel flavor would
> be cool I think)

Wouldn´t it ?!
Heck, all it basically takes is some time [LOL].
As mentioned before I´ve discussed this with my big brother at several
occasions but time was running out then, and just sniffing that shroom
gave him the shivers so I´d be on my own with this one.
I´d really like to know if any of the DJ growers ever tried anything
in that direction. No signs so far.

> I do think you need a fairly hearty leaf to begin with, and green/white
> may not work at all, but I wish there were more experimentation with
> tea than there is.

100% agreed. Look at Darjeeling, I really don´t know if there´s any
secret research going on, but telling from what they sell these days
it´s basically the same good old stuff the British started producing
some 150 years back [a bit greener + some highly drinkable
Oolongs/Whites and some less enjoyable greens]. Shame, shame ...

> This sounds like a worthy trial to undertake if only anyone would. And to be honest I could > be completely ignorant of prior attempts in the past to do just this, but with modern
> renewed interest and processing you would think it could be done.

Unfortunately from what I´ve learned up there it´s not that easy for
outsiders - not impossible though, but I personally don´t expect
things to radically change in the near future. This game is still 100%
ruled by money and traditions, with very few noteworthy exceptions,
sniff ...
See conventional vs. bio-organical farming, or packing teas [grrrr] -
why change anything ?
Also remember that not only the odd garden but the whole tea industry
in DJ had been lying in ruins several times in the 50s, 60s and 70s and
nobody, except the workers gave a SH.T. To give you an idea: 8 months
ago when my neighbor´s house burnt down, the fire brigade arrived 1
hour late AND without water. Get the point ?

One more for sentimental reasons: I accidentally washed my pants with
my train ticket still in the pocket. Totally unreadable. Bang. Next day
I went down to the train station to have it replaced. Once they learned
the story a chain reaction started. Replacement yes, new ticket NO [10
bucks, and I HAD to leave to catch my flight]. A bunch of station
managers gathered around me, took me to their office, 2 hours of
discussions, uncounted endless phone calls all over India, then they
had me walk over to the police. I had to file a THEFT! report, they
wouldn´t accept the laundry story.
I´ve been through some of that before but never got as close to
getting ballistic, "keep face", "keep face", ...
Another 90 minutes closely watched by an average 6-10 policemen before
2 A4 pages had been filed with the police chief, copies been made, bla
bla. Back to the train station with that friggin´report, some more
interrogations and voila, another 90 minutes later I had my
replacement. Baksheesh mode, no way this time. Got another point ?
The clocks tick pretty slow up there, on the other hand this makes it
so damn charming.

Back to nettles and rose-buds ...

Karsten [2006 Alishan]

MarshalN wrote:
> Mike Petro wrote:
>
> > This is actually something I have been hunting for a reputable
> > reference on for quite a while now. I have heard "rumors" that some
> > factories will introduce some puerh from a previous batch to inoculate
> > the current batch, sort of like they do with sour dough bread, but I
> > have never found a solid reputable reference that confirms this. Like
> > you say, they are all VERY secretive about it often citing "State
> > Secret" etc as if they would be prosecuted if they told.
>
> I believe Menghai does that, and the others I suspect as well. People
> say there's a Menghai taste. It comes from somewhere.

I can usually recognize a taste in raw Xia Guan but have never really
noticed a unique taste in cooked Mengahi, although I am sure it is
possible and I am just not attuned to it. If there is a unique trait to
Mengahi cooked, couldn't it just come from a certain control of the
time/temp/aeration variables? Maybe they have a unique process recipe
that is conducive to certain microbial strains, ie each type of microbe
tends to favor different specific conditions under which they will
multiply prolifically and MH might use a process that accentuates some
certain microbe. Obviously XG does something in their process that
makes it unique, and being raw I don't suspect added beasties as the
source. I would love to find confirmation that XYZ strains were
manually added though as that would explain a lot.

____
Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

writes:

> Lew wrote:
> [...]
> >> Does it sound to far off that you could produce some really nice
> >> similar or new, different tasty kind of Pu-Erh based on different
> >> kind of leaves [some kind of herbs, bonsai clippings, you name it] ?
> >> Does it have to be tea leaves ? What do you think ?
>
> > Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!
>
> Hey Lew, I didn´t mean to sound weird here, I´m serious [at least as
> serious as I can get, forget about the bonsai c.]. And then there is
> marketing [East-Friesean longevity nettle-shrooms, yadda yadda].

Well, it takes a lot to sound weird around here. And besides, the
wise man said "Goodness is a judgment for the mouth to make."

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

wrote:
> Unfortunately from what I´ve learned up there it´s not that easy for
> outsiders - not impossible though, but I personally don´t expect
> things to radically change in the near future. This game is still 100%
> ruled by money and traditions, with very few noteworthy exceptions,
> sniff ...
> See conventional vs. bio-organical farming, or packing teas [grrrr] -
> why change anything ?
> Also remember that not only the odd garden but the whole tea industry
> in DJ had been lying in ruins several times in the 50s, 60s and 70s and
> nobody, except the workers gave a SH.T. To give you an idea: 8 months
> ago when my neighbor´s house burnt down, the fire brigade arrived 1
> hour late AND without water. Get the point ?
>
> The clocks tick pretty slow up there, on the other hand this makes it
> so damn charming.
>
> Back to nettles and rose-buds ...
>
> Karsten [2006 Alishan]

Wow, great post... the clock does indeed tick slower and I love that as
well... and tea has staunchly stayed traditional and old school. There
is nothing wrong with that, and I could see how this idea would be seen
as radical or unworthy to any true puerh artisans but I bet there are a
few radical ones who wouldn't be afraid to step out of the box to try
something new. Finding that needle in a large haystack is another
story... I'd still love to taste it though.

on a slight side-note... I think I've seen you mention a love for the
muscatel/muscat flavors... if so there is an amazing drink made by a
company called Haitai. It is a little squat cola-like can with the word
Muscat on the front. It is amazing. It is a pure muscat drink with
small chunks of muscat all through it. mmm. I get it in asian markets
(especially Korean groceries). Also I've recently become a complete
devotee of moscato wines.

Another slight tangent, I had a great conversation with the owner of a
local indian restaraunt I frequent by my home and he was telling me how
the culture is changing quite rapidly in India and he isn't happy. With
Bangalore booming and such he stated how his mother is trying to hold
onto her values such as making everything from scratch and not eating
packaged foods and preservatives and such. That is what is good about
those places, and unfortunately to try to "compete" with the west they
are accelerating too rapidly to our unhealthy fast-paced lives and I
(and he) think it is a huge mistake. In that way I'd love to never see
DJ puerh, just to keep them honest and traditional. But damn would I
love to try it

- Dominic

"Mike Petro" > writes:

> [...Menghai inoculating their tea w/beasties?...]
> I can usually recognize a taste in raw Xia Guan but have never really
> noticed a unique taste in cooked Mengahi, although I am sure it is
> possible and I am just not attuned to it. If there is a unique trait to
> Mengahi cooked, couldn't it just come from a certain control of the
> time/temp/aeration variables? Maybe they have a unique process recipe
> that is conducive to certain microbial strains, ie each type of microbe
> tends to favor different specific conditions under which they will
> multiply prolifically and MH might use a process that accentuates some
> certain microbe. Obviously XG does something in their process that
> makes it unique, and being raw I don't suspect added beasties as the
> source. I would love to find confirmation that XYZ strains were
> manually added though as that would explain a lot.

Not to disagree with the above, but XG is way north of MH, so
presumably the two factories use different mixes of leaf. This could
have a lot to do with taste differences.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Dominic T. wrote:
> Another slight tangent, I had a great conversation with the owner of a
> local indian restaraunt I frequent by my home and he was telling me how
> the culture is changing quite rapidly in India and he isn't happy.

Having spent most of my asian past in Nepal and India I can only agree,
and while not too happy about those changes mentioned I´d leave the
choice with the locals.
The last time in DJ I had my friend, a highly educated head-monk of a
very traditional well-known monastery live in my room. He was about to
give up his old live [monastery, family, village] in favor of pursuing
a western style career. He had no idea as to where, how or what to
start, just going somewhere, learn something and make $$.
Back in Nepal it all started with the introduction of satellite TV some
years back. Once they´ve seen it, they wanted ["needed"] it.
Despite all cultural differences among those 80+ people one could
understand Nepal as one big family, and the same thing that happened
here at the beginning of industrialisation, social security in a big
family slowly being replaced by financial security [bio-survival notes]
happens big time over there these days with the well known devastating
effects and this is but one aspect of the complex changes happening. Go
to China to have a look at almost the same story in Fast-Forward mode.

> In that way I'd love to never see DJ puerh, just to keep them honest and traditional.

As soon as I´m back there I´ll give it a shot and see what happens. I
got some pressing molds waiting, hehe

> Also I've recently become a complete devotee of moscato wines.

Dunno about Haitai, never seen it, but I´m partial to
"Gewürztraminer" myself, shllllrp...

Karsten ["Thiele silver" Ostfriesen blend]






> wrote:
> > Unfortunately from what I´ve learned up there it´s not that easy for
> > outsiders - not impossible though, but I personally don´t expect
> > things to radically change in the near future. This game is still 100%
> > ruled by money and traditions, with very few noteworthy exceptions,
> > sniff ...
> > See conventional vs. bio-organical farming, or packing teas [grrrr] -
> > why change anything ?
> > Also remember that not only the odd garden but the whole tea industry
> > in DJ had been lying in ruins several times in the 50s, 60s and 70s and
> > nobody, except the workers gave a SH.T. To give you an idea: 8 months
> > ago when my neighbor´s house burnt down, the fire brigade arrived 1
> > hour late AND without water. Get the point ?
> >
> > The clocks tick pretty slow up there, on the other hand this makes it
> > so damn charming.
> >
> > Back to nettles and rose-buds ...
> >
> > Karsten [2006 Alishan]
>
> Wow, great post... the clock does indeed tick slower and I love that as
> well... and tea has staunchly stayed traditional and old school. There
> is nothing wrong with that, and I could see how this idea would be seen
> as radical or unworthy to any true puerh artisans but I bet there are a
> few radical ones who wouldn't be afraid to step out of the box to try
> something new. Finding that needle in a large haystack is another
> story... I'd still love to taste it though.
>
> on a slight side-note... I think I've seen you mention a love for the
> muscatel/muscat flavors... if so there is an amazing drink made by a
> company called Haitai. It is a little squat cola-like can with the word
> Muscat on the front. It is amazing. It is a pure muscat drink with
> small chunks of muscat all through it. mmm. I get it in asian markets
> (especially Korean groceries). Also I've recently become a complete
> devotee of moscato wines.
>
> Another slight tangent, I had a great conversation with the owner of a
> local indian restaraunt I frequent by my home and he was telling me how
> the culture is changing quite rapidly in India and he isn't happy. With
> Bangalore booming and such he stated how his mother is trying to hold
> onto her values such as making everything from scratch and not eating
> packaged foods and preservatives and such. That is what is good about
> those places, and unfortunately to try to "compete" with the west they
> are accelerating too rapidly to our unhealthy fast-paced lives and I
> (and he) think it is a huge mistake. In that way I'd love to never see
> DJ puerh, just to keep them honest and traditional. But damn would I
> love to try it
>
> - Dominic

wrote:
> Dunno about Haitai, never seen it, but I´m partial to
> "Gewürztraminer" myself, shllllrp...
>
> Karsten ["Thiele silver" Ostfriesen blend]

Well I'm looking forward to the report on DJ Puerh, I'll be in line to
buy the first tuo.

As for the Haitai drink, you owe it to yourself:
http://www.kgrocer.com/browseproduct...---8.80oz.HTML
that is the stuff. If I could buy in in larger amounts than 8.8oz cans
I'd live on it.

I love a solid Gewurztraminer myself, but ashamedly I've been loving
Elmo Pio Moscato... only ashamedly because it is kept in the isle with
the wino gallon jug wines section. But, eh, I'm not too proud.

- Dominic

Hey, thanks for the link. Unfortunately we´re a bit short on Koreans
and their supplies over here, I tried some of their non-energy related
canned stuff back in Asia. Instead we´ve got Thai and Vietnamese
places in abundance and I like their food a darn lot. Snatched some
fish for another big pot of Thai fish soup today.

Talking about slow organic decomposition, are you a kimchi man, Dominic
?
Any kimchi folks ´round here ?

K ... [ready for the sack]

wrote:
> Hey, thanks for the link. Unfortunately we´re a bit short on Koreans
> and their supplies over here, I tried some of their non-energy related
> canned stuff back in Asia. Instead we´ve got Thai and Vietnamese
> places in abundance and I like their food a darn lot. Snatched some
> fish for another big pot of Thai fish soup today.
>
> Talking about slow organic decomposition, are you a kimchi man, Dominic
> ?
> Any kimchi folks ´round here ?
>
> K ... [ready for the sack]

Yeah I figured it might be tough to locate there, but many asian
markets carry it. I figure somewhere in your travels you will come
across it and I guarantee you won't be let down.

I love a solid thai lemongrass chicken curry with coconut milk and
bamboo shoots and water chestnuts. We have a great place called the
Lemongrass Cafe here in the 'burgh.

You bet your life I love the kimchi. Bulgogi, Katsu, Pindaettok, and
those little fish I think called mialchi. I was lucky enough to grow up
around my mothers friends who were Korean, and my father had been
stationed in Korea so I was spoiled with home-made kimchi and
pindaettok all the time. The only time I am not a kimchi guy is when it
involves strange fermented fish and oysters, but radish kimchi or some
such variant is fine in my book too.

Good stuff.

- Dominic