First Tasty Flop :-)
 

Just wanted to tell you about my first flop at making bread (recipe
below). I used SF starter sent to me by someone ...and everything
went great until the final rise. I reckon I did a few things wrong...

On the initial sponge making I let it double and then it fell back
down again..perhaps I should have finished adding the flour etc when I
saw it had doubled...(Recipe says can go up to 8-24 hours...mine
doubled in about 6)

I made the dough and kneaded and left it in the bowl for a second
rise. Punched down and..........

I tried to make a nice round free form loaf....it was a nice smallish
shape but not perfectly smooth...was many little holes and stretch
marks especially once it was rising again. Covered it over with
plastic wrap and it got stuck.

I let it rise 3 times instead of only two. And it wound up looking
like a large foccia (sp) bread (or a very thick pizza crust). The
last rise must have been too long. I did not keep an eye out on
it.....was up late last night and had a nap for an hour and a half.

Having said all that...when it was done it was about 3/4 inch thick
(enough to split and butter/jam it )and crusty ouside...very soft and
moist inside. The kids loved it....just cut it into pizza shaped and
sized wedges for dinner.

It was good...sweet and sour at the same time.

Going to see if a pumpernickel comes out better...

TIPS of course are welcomed...I believe I see some of my errors but
any input would be welcomed.

***<< AS LONG AS THEY ARE CONSTRUCTIVE. I AM NEW TO MAKING SOURDOUGH
BREAD AND THEREFORE PRONE TO MAKING MISTAKES. I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN BY
TRYING, POSTING WHAT I DID AND GETTING ADVICE. IF YOU ARE ANNOYED BY
POSTS LIKE THESE FROM NEW PEOPLE,PLEASE REFRAIN FROM ANSWERING
THANKS>>>***

I was disappointed to say the least...but at least it was tasty and
therefore not wasted.

Cheers
Julie

Recipe I used:

Classic Sourdough Bread
1 cup Sourdough starter
1 1/3 cups Warm water
5 To 6 c all-purpose flour or
-a combination of All-purpose and whole wheat flours
1 tablespoon Salt
1 tablespoon Sugar
1 teaspoon Baking soda
Cornmeal to sprinkle on pans

THE SPONGE: Pour 1 cup of starter into a large ceramic mixing bowl.
Feed and then refrigerate the remainder. Add to the starter in the
mixing bowl, the warm water and about 3 c of flour. Beat vigorously
with a spoon or wire whisk. Cover this sponge with plastic wrap and
put it aside to work. This time period can be very flexible, but allow
at least 2 hours and as many as 24. The longer it has, the more yeast
there will be for the second rise and the more pronounced the sour
flavor of the bread will be.

THE DOUGH: After sponge has bubbled and expanded, remove plastic wrap.
Blend salt, sugar and baking soda into 2 c of flour. Mix this into
sponge with large spoon. When dough begins to hold together, turn it
out onto floured board and knead it for 3 or 4 minutes. Add flour as
needed to make a fairly stiff dough.Give the dough a rest and clean
the bowl.
Continue kneading for another 3 or 4 minutes. Place the dough back in
the bowl turning it to grease the top. Cover and let rise for 2 to 4
hours. If you want, you can skip the second rise in the bowl and
proceed directly to the next step.

SHAPING AND BAKING THE LOAVES: Knock down the dough and shape it into
2 long loaves.

<<< My NOTE: I (TRIED TO) MADE TWO ROUND LOAVES IN STEAD OF LONG
ONES>>>.

Place them on a cornmeal sprinkled cookie sheet, cover and let them
rise for another 2 hours or so.
Toward the end of the rising period, preheat your oven to 450 F and
begin heating a kettle of water on your stove. Just before you put
them in the oven, slash the tops of your loaves diagonally with a
knife 1/4" deep every two inches and brush with cold water. Place a
baking pan on the oven bottom and put in 3 or 4 cups of boiling water.
Put the loaves on the rack over the steaming water, close the oven and
bake for about 25 minutes.

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

"Julie" > wrote in message=20
om...

> I believe I see some of my errors but any input would be welcomed.

> ***<< AS LONG AS THEY ARE CONSTRUCTIVE. I AM NEW=20
TO MAKING SOURDOUGH BREAD AND THEREFORE PRONE=20
TO MAKING MISTAKES. I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN BY TRYING,=20
POSTING WHAT I DID AND GETTING ADVICE. IF YOU ARE=20
ANNOYED BY POSTS LIKE THESE FROM NEW PEOPLE, PLEASE=20
REFRAIN FROM ANSWERING THANKS>>>*** <

Sincere requests like yours invariably get a huge response, especially =
as
you seem to acknowledge that you did everything wrong to start. Such
requests are certainly not annoying, but, unfortunately, can set off a=20
stampede of the latest crop of newly-arisen advice givers, each one of
which, with some justification, will assume he/she knows more than you
do.

Personally, I do not see the point of punching down. But you gotta do =
it
if the instructions say it. Mrs. Adams feels the same way about =
instructions
(except those from me).

Nor does getting the sponge real sour make any sense to me. By then,
most of the fermentative potential has pooped out. =20

> Going to see if a pumpernickel comes out better...

A belly flop off the low board in hand, you'll take a dive off the =
cliff?!
Spunky! !!!

But that is probably saner than trying to follow all the advices that =
you will
get here. STUDY THE PUMPERNICKEL INSTRUCTIONS AT
http://samartha.net, AND YOU CAN'T GO WRONG.

(Now, probably, we will both get some advice about "yelling". And
somebody named Jeff is probably going to email me that I again did not
by a > before each quoted line.)

---
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Julie" > wrote in message
om...

> I believe I see some of my errors but any input would be welcomed.

> ***<< AS LONG AS THEY ARE CONSTRUCTIVE. I AM NEW
TO MAKING SOURDOUGH BREAD AND THEREFORE PRONE
TO MAKING MISTAKES. I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN BY TRYING,
POSTING WHAT I DID AND GETTING ADVICE. IF YOU ARE
ANNOYED BY POSTS LIKE THESE FROM NEW PEOPLE, PLEASE
REFRAIN FROM ANSWERING THANKS>>>*** <


>>>>(Now, probably, we will both get some advice about "yelling". And
somebody named Jeff is probably going to email me that I again did not
by a > before each quoted line.)<<<<<<<


I am only yelling because of the response I got from another post when I
asked "silly" questions...I will refrain in the future if I remember.

Thanks for the advice...and responding nicely...:-)

Cheers
Julie
---
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

"Julie" > wrote in message
om...

> Going to see if a pumpernickel comes out better...

As I am a newbie here, I am interested to know how you make out with the
pumpernickel; I have tried twice with with an all rye sourdough recipe (no
added yeasts) and have made tasty bricks with uncooked centers. I love the
flavor, but can't seem to get the texture right! I am gearing up for a third
try this weekend : -)

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

HeatherInSwampscott wrote:
>
> "Julie" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > Going to see if a pumpernickel comes out better...
>
> As I am a newbie here, I am interested to know how you make out with the
> pumpernickel; I have tried twice with with an all rye sourdough recipe (no
> added yeasts) and have made tasty bricks with uncooked centers.

Not knowing more than the three lines above, without the slightest idea
of your recipe, I dare to mention:

How do you know that the center is "uncooked"?

When I make my pumpernickels, like this:
http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/ the center is very soft, almost
flowing when they come out of the oven after 24 hours. But this will
harden very soon when they cool down and they are just right then.

The

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/PPN01-4.html

and zoom up the crumb 1 picture twice, you can see the soft inner core.
This makes me think that you may have something similar and suspect it
is uncooked. I had the same idea when I saw this for the first time.

> I love the
> flavor, but can't seem to get the texture right! I am gearing up for a third
> try this weekend : -)

What do you use as a reference for your texture so you say it is "not
right"?

And - just out of curiosity, what kind of flours do you use and how do
you get them?

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...

> How do you know that the center is "uncooked"?
>
> When I make my pumpernickels, like this:
> http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/ the center is very soft, almost
> flowing when they come out of the oven after 24 hours.

Hi Samartha;

I have seen your recipe and will try it soon. The recipe I am trying calls
for an oven temperature of 350 degrees Fahrenheit, if I remember correctly,
and a time of 1 1/2 hours or more. The reason I think the center is uncooked
is because after one or two days the center still feels like and looks like
and smells like soft raw dough. The crust, about 1/2 - 1 inch, is cooked,
and I have been peeling it off the raw dough center and eating it : -) The
internal temperature of the bread does rise to over 200 degrees F, perhaps
the center is "cooked", just not to my taste.

> > I love the
> > flavor, but can't seem to get the texture right! I am gearing up for a
third
> > try this weekend : -)
>
> What do you use as a reference for your texture so you say it is "not
> right"?

My reference is my taste. The texture of that raw-ish center is even softer
than what your photos seem to show. When I slice it, the crust becomes
almost separate from the center. At some point I will borrow my work camera
and take a picture or two to post on the web, for interested parties. But
probably the next time around the bread will be better.

> And - just out of curiosity, what kind of flours do you use and how do
> you get them?
>
> Samartha

I am grinding my own flour from whole rye berries for the recipe I am
trying. I also have whole wheat berries on hand for the other sourdough
bread I have made, which is 50% rye 50% wheat. That had good rise and nice
texture, but not that wonderful taste I am getting with the rye "bricks".

I have just found a local whole foods store that will order for me from
United Northeast (formerly Northeast Cooperatives, purveyor of dry goods and
groceries to the earthy crunchy coops). I can get 50 lb bags of organic
wheat or rye berries for $.52 and $.56 per pound, respectively. (Thanks Dick
for your helpful suggestions regarding the search for supplies.) That is the
best price I have found so far for organic.

Regards,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

"HeatherInSwampscott" >
> The reason I think the center is uncooked
> is because after one or two days the center still feels like and looks
like
> and smells like soft raw dough.

I should have clarified this:
Samartha wrote:
>But this will harden very soon when they cool down and they are just right
then.

I should have written after one or two days out of the oven after cooling
down. : -) This bread could possibly be in the oven baking for one or two
days, which is not what I meant (but might try in the future). : -)

Heather

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:34:49 GMT, "HeatherInSwampscott"
> wrote:

>The recipe I am trying calls
>for an oven temperature of 350 degrees Fahrenheit, if I remember correctly,

Did you calibrate your oven with an oven thermometer. I am told that
most ovens are not properly calibrated. You might want to buy a good
oven thermometer and check it out.

If the temperature is off by much you can set the thermostat to adjust
for it. Or you can adjust the internal mechanism of the thermostat -
but only if you know what you are doing. The adjustment screw is
inside the shaft that the knob is on - hold the shaft with a pliers
and use a jewelers screwdriver of sufficient length to recalibrate the
thermostat. Then test the setting with an oven thermometer.

If you don't know what you are doing, then do not attempt to
recalibrate your oven thermostat. I am not responsible if you burn
your house down because you are not capable of making the proper
adjustment.

>and a time of 1 1/2 hours or more. The reason I think the center is uncooked
>is because after one or two days the center still feels like and looks like
>and smells like soft raw dough. The crust, about 1/2 - 1 inch, is cooked,
>and I have been peeling it off the raw dough center and eating it : -) The
>internal temperature of the bread does rise to over 200 degrees F, perhaps
>the center is "cooked", just not to my taste.

While you are getting that oven thermometer, get one of those long
thin food thermometers that are labeled as "instant temperature
reading". They look like a standard meat thermometer but in minature.
Use it to take a reading of the internal temperature of the bread - it
should be 200-205F according to what I have read and personally
experienced. I conduct such measurement every time I bake bread just
to make sure it's done.

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

Bob wrote:
>
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:34:49 GMT, "HeatherInSwampscott"
> > wrote:
>
> >The recipe I am trying calls
> >for an oven temperature of 350 degrees Fahrenheit, if I remember correctly,
>
> Did you calibrate your oven with an oven thermometer. I am told that
> most ovens are not properly calibrated. You might want to buy a good
> oven thermometer and check it out.

I find calibration of oven thermometers totally unessential in
comparison to other factors influencing baking with natural sourdoughs.

The issue with pumpernickel baking is not so much the accuracy of the
temperature set on the oven dial but the long baking time and humidity
issues during that time period.

Samartha
--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

Hi Heather,

you wrote:

> I have seen your recipe and will try it soon. The recipe I am trying calls
> for an oven temperature of 350 degrees Fahrenheit, if I remember correctly,
> and a time of 1 1/2 hours or more.

Depending, if the "more" is over ten times as much, you are in the
pumpernickel realm. With the 1 1/2 hours you mention, you won't get the
pumpernickel effect i. e. taste, color and structure-wise.

That's why some shorter recipes have coffee, molasses and who knows what
else.

Btw. the recipe is not "mine", I did not come up with it. The
pumpernickel process is around and is long baking times of coarse rye
dough in a steamed environment with low temperature and low sourdough
contents.

> The reason I think the center is uncooked
> is because after one or two days the center still feels like and looks like
> and smells like soft raw dough. The crust, about 1/2 - 1 inch, is cooked,
> and I have been peeling it off the raw dough center and eating it : -) The
> internal temperature of the bread does rise to over 200 degrees F, perhaps
> the center is "cooked", just not to my taste.

If it's above 180/190 F, it's cooked.

> > > I love the
> > > flavor, but can't seem to get the texture right! I am gearing up for a
> third
> > > try this weekend : -)
> >
> > What do you use as a reference for your texture so you say it is "not
> > right"?
>
> My reference is my taste. The texture of that raw-ish center is even softer
> than what your photos seem to show. When I slice it, the crust becomes
> almost separate from the center. At some point I will borrow my work camera
> and take a picture or two to post on the web, for interested parties. But
> probably the next time around the bread will be better.

See, I don't know what you are getting, when you bake the coarse rye
dough you seem to make with ?? sourdough content and bake it for 1 1/2
hours at 350 F. That's probably not something which resembles the "real"
pumpernickel.

I was hoping you had a "reference" experience, like an authentic one you
got somewhere before.

I find it hard to buy real pumpernickel in US. The one's at the
supermarket (if it's not the wonderbread like dark fluffy shrinkwrapped
stuff) are mostly done with yeast. Sometimes, they can be found at the
deli section and are more expensive.

I think, I should make a picture of slice of the cooled down
pumpernickel. The only problem is the color. It does not come out right
with the camera on the web site.

> I am grinding my own flour from whole rye berries for the recipe I am
> trying. I also have whole wheat berries on hand for the other sourdough
> bread I have made, which is 50% rye 50% wheat. That had good rise and nice
> texture, but not that wonderful taste I am getting with the rye "bricks".

As I said before, with the 1 1/2 hours baking, you won't get the
pumpernickel taste. You get probably a strong rye taste. With the 50/50,
I get really good tastes and decent structure with long starter grow
times. What surprises me is that it seems that 8 % flax seeds (baker's
%) change the crumb and make better rise.

>
> I have just found a local whole foods store that will order for me from
> United Northeast (formerly Northeast Cooperatives, purveyor of dry goods and
> groceries to the earthy crunchy coops). I can get 50 lb bags of organic
> wheat or rye berries for $.52 and $.56 per pound, respectively. (Thanks Dick
> for your helpful suggestions regarding the search for supplies.) That is the
> best price I have found so far for organic.

The o. rye berries I got were surprisingly cheap: 50 @ $.27 but somehow
the berries were smaller and kinda soft and clog my mill stone. The red
o. wheat b, I got for 50 @ $.36 and they mill much better. Prices vary,
the rye was over $ 25 a bag two years ago.

I think you are doing just fine, enjoy!

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
>Depending, if the "more" is over ten times as much, you are in the
>pumpernickel realm. With the 1 1/2 hours you mention, you won't get the
>pumpernickel effect i. e. taste, color and structure-wise.

That is just it, I think the recipe is off or wrong, as the "more" stretches
much longer than the 1 1/2 hours mentioned in the recipe! I do end up with a
very dark loaf, with a flavor and aroma that is just awesome, which is why I
will be fiddling around with rye until I get the loaf I like.

>What surprises me is that it seems that 8 % flax seeds (baker's
> %) change the crumb and make better rise.

This sounds interesting; I will have to try flax seeds with my next
rye/wheat loaf.

Thanks for your reponses,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

"Bob" > wrote
> Did you calibrate your oven with an oven thermometer.

Hi, my oven is fairly close, within 10 degrees or so. I have an instant read
thermometer, a meat thermometer and an oven thermometer that resides in my
oven. Eventually, when I start making cheese, I will probably add a cheese
thermometer to my collection : -)

Between them all I do check temperatures occasionally, but not religiously.
I am also having fun trying to figure out the "tap" at the bottom of the
loaf method to get the hollow sound (done) vs. the muffled thud (not done).
So far I am right 50% of the time with the tap : -)

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

First Tasty Flop :-)
 

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:12:00 GMT, "HeatherInSwampscott"
> wrote:

>Between them all I do check temperatures occasionally, but not religiously.
>I am also having fun trying to figure out the "tap" at the bottom of the
>loaf method to get the hollow sound (done) vs. the muffled thud (not done).
>So far I am right 50% of the time with the tap : -)

I do not trust the tapping method because it does not assess the
doneness of the centermost part - the part that you are discussing
here. I only trust the internal temperature measurement with the
thermometer end placed in the center of the bread. I insert the
thermometer at as steep a slanting angle as I can to get as much of
the probe into the bread.

There is an old rule from experimental phyics that you insert ten
times the length of the active measurement part of the probe into the
sample. If the active measurement area of those minature thermometers
is approximately 1/4 inch, then you should insert 2.5 inches of the
probe into the bread. That's possible if you insert it at a steep
slanting angle.

I suppose I could just put it in 2.5 inches at the end of the bread,
but I want to measure the dough at its most vulnerable place - the
middle center of the loaf.

I had one loaf come up short - about 190F - but I took it out anyway.
The center was indeed a bit on the soggy side but I let the bread sit
for a while and it firmed up. Then I read that it is always best to
let the bread sit a long while before cutting into it.