__Food Safety Question -- "Safe" Method (Guidelines) for UsingAlchohol as a Preservative?
 

I've made pepper sauce by grinding up habanero peppers in a fortified
Chinese cooking wine that resembles sherry. I believe the ABV of the
wine was about 20%, and it contained about 1% salt to make it
undrinkable. I didn't weigh the peppers, but I suspect I had about 2
parts wine to 1 part peppers, so the final strength was maybe 13%
alcohol. I chopped the peppers into a canning jar, added the wine,
sealed the jar very tightly, and cooked in a water bath for a while to
cook the peppers. I refrigerated it, and when cooled I ground it up
with a "stick blender". It kept for over a year in the refrigerator
until I used it up. I do not recommend putting something like this in a
narrow-necked pepper sauce bottle; the vapor pressure of the alcohol can
spew the sauce out when you open the lid. (don't ask me how I know this)

If I did this again, I would blanch the whole peppers in a steamer to
make them grind easier and to deactivate their enzymes. Plunge in cold
water to preserve any bright color that was left. Then grind up with
the fortified wine, and adjust the salt. And I wouldn't bother to cook
it. I think it would be shelf stable.

Next time, I may try using the strongest white vermouth I can find
instead of fortified rice wine.

This isn't analytical research, but I hope it helps,
Bob

I've made pepper sauce by grinding up habanero peppers in a fortified
Chinese cooking wine that resembles sherry. I believe the ABV of the
wine was about 20%, and it contained about 1% salt to make it
undrinkable. I didn't weigh the peppers, but I suspect I had about 2
parts wine to 1 part peppers, so the final strength was maybe 13%
alcohol. I chopped the peppers into a canning jar, added the wine,
sealed the jar very tightly, and cooked in a water bath for a while to
cook the peppers. I refrigerated it, and when cooled I ground it up
with a "stick blender". It kept for over a year in the refrigerator
until I used it up. I do not recommend putting something like this in a
narrow-necked pepper sauce bottle; the vapor pressure of the alcohol can
spew the sauce out when you open the lid. (don't ask me how I know this)

If I did this again, I would blanch the whole peppers in a steamer to
make them grind easier and to deactivate their enzymes. Plunge in cold
water to preserve any bright color that was left. Then grind up with
the fortified wine, and adjust the salt. And I wouldn't bother to cook
it. I think it would be shelf stable.

Next time, I may try using the strongest white vermouth I can find
instead of fortified rice wine.

This isn't analytical research, but I hope it helps,
Bob

> It seems to me that you "hedged your bet" against the alcohol's
> being a reliable sole preservative in your own sauce. So, we both appear
> to be a bit suspicious of alcohol's safety margin when relied upon alone as
> the preserving agent. I guess the questions a
>
> (i) WHY are we suspicious; and
> (ii) SHOULD we, or to WHAT EXTENT, should we be
> suspicious. On my part, it's because I don't know the answer.
>
> So, actually, although we are approaching the problem from different
> perspectives (you obviously have some canning experience which I do not
> as a practical matter), you approached the problem with something of a
> raised eyebrow yourself -- just like me.
>
> It sounds to me that you and I are more or less headed in the same
> direction -- moving away from the canning aspects into relying on alcohol,
> and in your case, perhaps some additional salt.


Your drawing too many conclusions from one data point :-)
What I was trying to achieve was a habanero sauce that didn't taste like
vinegar. Other peppers are good fermented or preserved with vinegar,
but I don't like habaneros that way. I cooked the peppers to make them
grind up better and to denature any enzymes. I cooked them in the
sealed jar so I wouldn't have to do it under a fume hood.

The bottle of pepper sauce was stored at room temperature in the
cupboard, but it had a nasty habit of spewing when I opened it, so I
dumped it into the sauce jar in the fridge.

I have very little doubt that this stuff was shelf stable, but I store
open jars of just about everything in the refrigerator. I only made one
jar of this stuff.

13% alcohol is near the upper range for what fungi can tolerate, except
for wine yeasts. I'm sure some bacteria can live in that enviroment,
but I can't think of any -- and they would probably need oxygen
(acetobacter). The salt is just for flavor; I used salted wine because
there's no excise tax on it because it's not drinkable.

The resulting sauce was not very good, but it was useful for cooking with.

An interesting experiment, and less elaborate than mine, would be to
slit some hot peppers (or cut them in half), put them in a jar, and
cover with a fortified wine; see what happens if they are capped and
stored at room temperature for a month or three. I'll bet nothing happens.

Best regards,
Bob

> It seems to me that you "hedged your bet" against the alcohol's
> being a reliable sole preservative in your own sauce. So, we both appear
> to be a bit suspicious of alcohol's safety margin when relied upon alone as
> the preserving agent. I guess the questions a
>
> (i) WHY are we suspicious; and
> (ii) SHOULD we, or to WHAT EXTENT, should we be
> suspicious. On my part, it's because I don't know the answer.
>
> So, actually, although we are approaching the problem from different
> perspectives (you obviously have some canning experience which I do not
> as a practical matter), you approached the problem with something of a
> raised eyebrow yourself -- just like me.
>
> It sounds to me that you and I are more or less headed in the same
> direction -- moving away from the canning aspects into relying on alcohol,
> and in your case, perhaps some additional salt.


Your drawing too many conclusions from one data point :-)
What I was trying to achieve was a habanero sauce that didn't taste like
vinegar. Other peppers are good fermented or preserved with vinegar,
but I don't like habaneros that way. I cooked the peppers to make them
grind up better and to denature any enzymes. I cooked them in the
sealed jar so I wouldn't have to do it under a fume hood.

The bottle of pepper sauce was stored at room temperature in the
cupboard, but it had a nasty habit of spewing when I opened it, so I
dumped it into the sauce jar in the fridge.

I have very little doubt that this stuff was shelf stable, but I store
open jars of just about everything in the refrigerator. I only made one
jar of this stuff.

13% alcohol is near the upper range for what fungi can tolerate, except
for wine yeasts. I'm sure some bacteria can live in that enviroment,
but I can't think of any -- and they would probably need oxygen
(acetobacter). The salt is just for flavor; I used salted wine because
there's no excise tax on it because it's not drinkable.

The resulting sauce was not very good, but it was useful for cooking with.

An interesting experiment, and less elaborate than mine, would be to
slit some hot peppers (or cut them in half), put them in a jar, and
cover with a fortified wine; see what happens if they are capped and
stored at room temperature for a month or three. I'll bet nothing happens.

Best regards,
Bob

I've sent an email to the University of Georgia and asked about this,
and if I hear anything back I'll post it here.

Bob

I've sent an email to the University of Georgia and asked about this,
and if I hear anything back I'll post it here.

Bob

_L Scott wrote (I'm not sure why you are indenting so much):

> It's the "salinity" that saves your ass from Bot, not
> the vinegar or the Chinese wine.
>

No, it's lactic acid from the fermentation that inhibits clostridium
(botulism) growth. The salt optimizes conditions for some
lacto-bacteria or another, then the bacteria acidifies the mash.

Pastorio, or maybe it was Dr. Nummer, posted here a long time ago what
the upper salinity range is for clostridium, and it is quite high --
20-something percent, I believe. Maybe one of them will join in the
discussion.

Best regards,
Bob

_L Scott wrote (I'm not sure why you are indenting so much):

> It's the "salinity" that saves your ass from Bot, not
> the vinegar or the Chinese wine.
>

No, it's lactic acid from the fermentation that inhibits clostridium
(botulism) growth. The salt optimizes conditions for some
lacto-bacteria or another, then the bacteria acidifies the mash.

Pastorio, or maybe it was Dr. Nummer, posted here a long time ago what
the upper salinity range is for clostridium, and it is quite high --
20-something percent, I believe. Maybe one of them will join in the
discussion.

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

> _L Scott wrote (I'm not sure why you are indenting so much):
>
>> It's the "salinity" that saves your ass from Bot, not
>> the vinegar or the Chinese wine.
>>
> No, it's lactic acid from the fermentation that inhibits clostridium
> (botulism) growth. The salt optimizes conditions for some
> lacto-bacteria or another, then the bacteria acidifies the mash.
>
> Pastorio, or maybe it was Dr. Nummer, posted here a long time ago what
> the upper salinity range is for clostridium, and it is quite high --
> 20-something percent, I believe. Maybe one of them will join in the
> discussion.

I don't think I posted that. Salinity isn't much of a deterrent for
any of the clostridium critters until it gets up to numbers that make
the foods treated virtually inedible. It's more like acidity and water
activity that keeps the critters under control. Temperature can also
contribute to restriction of growth. Reasonably high salinity in an
acid solution will do it. It's pretty much what the shelf-stable hot
sauces rely on.

Pastorio

zxcvbob wrote:

> _L Scott wrote (I'm not sure why you are indenting so much):
>
>> It's the "salinity" that saves your ass from Bot, not
>> the vinegar or the Chinese wine.
>>
> No, it's lactic acid from the fermentation that inhibits clostridium
> (botulism) growth. The salt optimizes conditions for some
> lacto-bacteria or another, then the bacteria acidifies the mash.
>
> Pastorio, or maybe it was Dr. Nummer, posted here a long time ago what
> the upper salinity range is for clostridium, and it is quite high --
> 20-something percent, I believe. Maybe one of them will join in the
> discussion.

I don't think I posted that. Salinity isn't much of a deterrent for
any of the clostridium critters until it gets up to numbers that make
the foods treated virtually inedible. It's more like acidity and water
activity that keeps the critters under control. Temperature can also
contribute to restriction of growth. Reasonably high salinity in an
acid solution will do it. It's pretty much what the shelf-stable hot
sauces rely on.

Pastorio

zxcvbob wrote:

> _L Scott wrote (I'm not sure why you are indenting so much):
>
>> It's the "salinity" that saves your ass from Bot, not
>> the vinegar or the Chinese wine.
>>
> No, it's lactic acid from the fermentation that inhibits clostridium
> (botulism) growth. The salt optimizes conditions for some
> lacto-bacteria or another, then the bacteria acidifies the mash.
>
> Pastorio, or maybe it was Dr. Nummer, posted here a long time ago what
> the upper salinity range is for clostridium, and it is quite high --
> 20-something percent, I believe. Maybe one of them will join in the
> discussion.

I don't think I posted that. Salinity isn't much of a deterrent for
any of the clostridium critters until it gets up to numbers that make
the foods treated virtually inedible. It's more like acidity and water
activity that keeps the critters under control. Temperature can also
contribute to restriction of growth. Reasonably high salinity in an
acid solution will do it. It's pretty much what the shelf-stable hot
sauces rely on.

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote:

> Reasonably high salinity in an
> acid solution will do it.

I read this as "Reasonably high sanity in an acid solution..." and
somehow it *still* made sense. :)

"Bob (this one)" > wrote:

> Reasonably high salinity in an
> acid solution will do it.

I read this as "Reasonably high sanity in an acid solution..." and
somehow it *still* made sense. :)

zxcvbob > wrote in message >...
> I've made pepper sauce by grinding up habanero peppers in a fortified
> Chinese cooking wine that resembles sherry. I believe the ABV of the
> wine was about 20%, and it contained about 1% salt to make it
> undrinkable. I didn't weigh the peppers, but I suspect I had about 2
> parts wine to 1 part peppers, so the final strength was maybe 13%
> alcohol. I chopped the peppers into a canning jar, added the wine,
> sealed the jar very tightly, and cooked in a water bath for a while to
> cook the peppers. I refrigerated it, and when cooled I ground it up
> with a "stick blender". It kept for over a year in the refrigerator
> until I used it up.

<snip>

Sounds, um, interesting...and what did you use if for?

Kathi

zxcvbob > wrote in message >...
> I've made pepper sauce by grinding up habanero peppers in a fortified
> Chinese cooking wine that resembles sherry. I believe the ABV of the
> wine was about 20%, and it contained about 1% salt to make it
> undrinkable. I didn't weigh the peppers, but I suspect I had about 2
> parts wine to 1 part peppers, so the final strength was maybe 13%
> alcohol. I chopped the peppers into a canning jar, added the wine,
> sealed the jar very tightly, and cooked in a water bath for a while to
> cook the peppers. I refrigerated it, and when cooled I ground it up
> with a "stick blender". It kept for over a year in the refrigerator
> until I used it up.

<snip>

Sounds, um, interesting...and what did you use if for?

Kathi

Blanche Nonken wrote:

> "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>>Reasonably high salinity in an
>>acid solution will do it.
>
> I read this as "Reasonably high sanity in an acid solution..." and
> somehow it *still* made sense. :)

<LOL> It's what I live for. Someday I hope to get a glimpse of it.

Pastorio

Blanche Nonken wrote:

> "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>>Reasonably high salinity in an
>>acid solution will do it.
>
> I read this as "Reasonably high sanity in an acid solution..." and
> somehow it *still* made sense. :)

<LOL> It's what I live for. Someday I hope to get a glimpse of it.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:

> Blanche Nonken wrote:
>
>> "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>>
>>>Reasonably high salinity in an
>>>acid solution will do it.
>>
>> I read this as "Reasonably high sanity in an acid solution..." and
>> somehow it *still* made sense. :)
>
> <LOL> It's what I live for. Someday I hope to get a glimpse of it.

It's a great description of surviving Usenet.

B/