"<RJ>" > wrote in message
...
> What's really funny is;
> US beer makers tout their "spring water"
> or their "pure mountain water".
> Beer "from the land of sky-blue water"
> And the beer all tastes like bad alka-seltzer.
>

If you really think that all US beer tastes like alka-seltzer then you are
sadly misinformed. Most US beer is indeed pretty poor, but there are many
excellent ones. Learn before you shoot your mouth off.


--
Peter Aitken

wrote:

Joseph Littleshoes wrote:

> >We get a local micro brewery wheat beer in Berkeley Ca. that is very
> >reminiscent of my German grandfathers home brew. And their
> >raspberry
> >beer while very tasty is almost too potent for my taste.
>
> This I would love, sounds fantastic. Raspberry Beer. Very interesting.

Its very tasty stuff and about as potent as wine, 18 % iirc. From your
e mail address i take it you are in Florida? Otherwise i would mention
the brewery. As far as i know the local place only sells it by the
glass and does not bottle it.

>
>
> If the US beer industry would put some effort into this and get this
> stuff to
> the masses we could convert this country.

The French make a version of raspberry and other fruit beers that i
understand is importable by individuals. Unfortunately shipping alcohol
between states in America is prohibited or in some other way made very
difficult for individuals, though i could be wrong about that. A good
wine merchant should be able to import the French raspberry beer.
---
JL

"" wrote:

> What's really funny is;
> US beer makers tout their "spring water"
> or their "pure mountain water".
> Beer "from the land of sky-blue water"
> And the beer all tastes like bad alka-seltzer.
>

So far I agree.

> Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !!
> No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals.
> And yet this questionable water makes great beer !
> Go figure....

As a a matter of fact, I have tasted European water. There is nothing wrong
with it.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 23:46:27 GMT, "Peter Aitken" > wrote:

>"<RJ>" > wrote in message
.. .
>> What's really funny is;
>> US beer makers tout their "spring water"
>> or their "pure mountain water".
>> Beer "from the land of sky-blue water"
>> And the beer all tastes like bad alka-seltzer.
>>
>
>If you really think that all US beer tastes like alka-seltzer then you are
>sadly misinformed. Most US beer is indeed pretty poor, but there are many
>excellent ones. Learn before you shoot your mouth off.

.....And I thought I'd sorted out all the ill-mannered assholes in RFC.

I must've missed one.

<rj>

notbob > wrote:

> But, for a good example of
> what the biggies are capable of, try Blue Moon, Coors' excellent
> example of a Belgian-style wit bier (white beer). It kind of hard to
> find, but worth the effort.

Around here, it would be much easier for me to find actual Belgian beers
and even if it were not so, Belgium is only about 55 miles and less than
one hour from where I am. :-) I don't like any of the Belgian beers
much, though. As I posted before, I once had a comparative tasting of
quite a number of beers in a beer bar in Gent that offered beer
"flights" and have to say that I was sorely disappointed. Those lambic
and kriek beers are barely palatable, as far as I'm concerned, and even
such beers as traditionally made ales from Chimay monastery don't really
taste good. JMHO.

Victor

On 2005-09-17, Victor Sack > wrote:

> Around here, it would be much easier for me to find actual Belgian beers
> and even if it were not so, Belgium is only about 55 miles and less than
> one hour from where I am. :-)

Yer killin' me, Victor!

> I don't like any of the Belgian beers
> much, though.

DOH!!.... the humanity!.....

> Those lambic
> and kriek beers are barely palatable....

Arrgh! ...another spike to the heart.

> such beers as traditionally made ales from Chimay monastery don't really
> taste good.

Shriek! ...wail! ...flogging myself with hops vines....

nb ...consulting gree-gree ju-ju priestess for body/soul xfer spell...



> Victor

Victor Sack wrote:

> Around here, it would be much easier for me to find actual Belgian beers
> and even if it were not so, Belgium is only about 55 miles and less than
> one hour from where I am. :-) I don't like any of the Belgian beers
> much, though.

While I have been disappointed in some of the imported Belgian beers
available here, the draft beer I had in Belgium was the best beer I ever
tasted in my life. The shame of it is that I don't even know the name of it.
I had it in a restaurant in Ypres, east side of the road half way between
the (reconstructed) Cloth Hall and the Mennin Gate. It was fabulous. I
have never tasted a beer than even came close to it.

Speaking of Belgium beers .... Stella Artois has been running the funniest
television commercials for the beer. The first one in the series is in a
bar. It is all in French but I am not sure that you even have to speak
French to understand it. The owners son returns from the war and introduces
his friend and says that he had saved his life. The father produces a bottle
of wine and starts to pour but the son asks for a Stella Artois. The father
looks a little disappointed but pulls a draft of Stella. Then the friend
asks for a Stella. The father starts to pull another draft but the tap
sputters. He apologizes and gives the friend wine. The father had been
standing on the line to the tap.

Then there was the one with the bank robbers in an alley. They use a candle
to check out their loot, then pour themselves some Stella to celebrate their
successful heist. Meanwhile, the candle falls into the bag with the money
and it starts to burn. They look for a way to extinguish the flames,
consider pouring the beer on it but then decide that beer is more valuable
then the money.

My wife told me about one that she saw but which I missed. A young man is
walking with his pet pig, which does a number of tricks. He goes into a bar
but discovers he has no money. He takes the pig next door to the butcher and
comes back with money but no pet pig, sits down and orders a Stella.

_.-In rec.food.cooking, Victor Sack wrote the following -._
> Around here, it would be much easier for me to find actual Belgian beers
> and even if it were not so, Belgium is only about 55 miles and less than
> one hour from where I am. :-) I don't like any of the Belgian beers
> much, though. As I posted before, I once had a comparative tasting of
> quite a number of beers in a beer bar in Gent that offered beer
> "flights" and have to say that I was sorely disappointed.

That isn't just some "beer bar". That is a bar with more Belgian
beers on tap then most bars the testicals for. The Tap House is great
for its selection of EU beers on tap and not out of a bottle.

This is of course you are talking about Gent, Norfolk, VA, USA.

> Those lambic

I have one in my cooler right now. I think they are great.

--
.-')) fauxascii.com ('-. | It's a damn poor mind that
' ..- .:" ) ( ":. -.. ' | can only think of one way to
((,,_;'.;' UIN=66618055 ';. ';_,,)) | spell a word.
((_.YIM=Faux_Pseudo :._)) | - Andrew Jackson

wrote in
:

> Melted cheddar cheese (and I am NOT referring to that block of
> chemical cheese like substance pawned off to the peasant masses),
> is not even close to the cheese curds in poutine

You ARE being difficult. The cheese curds in poutine are mild cheddar
curds. You obviously haven't a clue what poutine is, then.

--

"Compassion is the chief law of human existence."

Dostoevski, The Idiot

Dave Smith > wrote:

> Speaking of Belgium beers .... Stella Artois has been running the funniest
> television commercials for the beer.

I've never seen those ads, but I've heard of them before. I wish they
were running them here. They are trying to position Stella Artois as a
"premium" brand. It's never been one before. :-)

Victor

"Victor Sack" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Smith > wrote:
>
>> Speaking of Belgium beers .... Stella Artois has been running the
>> funniest
>> television commercials for the beer.
>
> I've never seen those ads, but I've heard of them before. I wish they
> were running them here. They are trying to position Stella Artois as a
> "premium" brand. It's never been one before. :-)

The only Belgian beer I've tasted is Leffe and I must say I really like it.
One of my co-workers was in Toronto and, knowing that I like beer, brought
me back a Polish one, a Czech one (they didn't impress me enough to try to
remember the names) a Guinness (which I can get here) and a Leffe. While I
consider Guinness to be in a class by itself, of the others 3, Leffe was by
far my favourite.

Gabby

In article ws.net>,
"Shaun aRe" > wrote:

> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article > ,
> > Dog3 > wrote:
> >
> > > Oh man, this stuff sounds killer. A couple of shots of beer and you're
> on
> > > the floor.
> > > Fri Sep 9,11:24 AM ET
> > >
> > > BERLIN (Reuters) - A German brewer has concocted what he says is the
> > > world's strongest beer, a potent drink with an alcohol content of 25.4
> > > percent that is served in a shot glass.
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry, Michael, but this seems ridiculous, and nothing more than a
> > publicity attempt (which has apparently worked, at least on this group).


> It may be a publicity stunt to some degree at least, but people have not
> been making beverages this strong by fermentation alone (which this *is*)
> for hundreds of years at all, it is a comparitively recent thing. That there
> are beers that can now be brewed to these strengths at all is a direct
> result of these 'strongest beer in the world' competitions between different
> brewers. Many techniques are used to achieve these high alcohol counts, but
> it all starts with yeasts specially bred to have a high tolerance for
> alcohol.

Thanks for an interesting post, Shaun. I guess I was put off by a
couple of things in the original post. The first was that producing a
drink with this high a percentage of alcohol was something unique, and
it was going to put you on the floor. The second was the concept that
this stuff had to be served in a shot glass, because of its potency.


> > They don't taste
> > much like beer,


> So you are taking issue with the naming of these as 'beers'?


I guess so. It's more the wording of the whole thing than anything
else. Do you know any self-respecting brewer who would be happy to be
referred to as "concocting" their beer? Do you know of any producer of
alcoholic beverages who would promote drinking them in shot glasses
(other than the vilest drink that you want to get down without tasting
it)?

I suppose I should give it a try before being so critical. I know that
our locally brewery produces a barley wine. I think it is about 10%,
but it is seasonal. My son has drunk some, but I've never tried it:

http://lagunitas.com/beers/index.html

"<RJ>" > wrote in message
...
> What's really funny is;
> US beer makers tout their "spring water"
> or their "pure mountain water".
> Beer "from the land of sky-blue water"
> And the beer all tastes like bad alka-seltzer.
>
> Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !!
> No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals.
> And yet this questionable water makes great beer !
> Go figure....

Hey - there *isn't* /a/ *European water*. Hells man, even in England alone
the water can differ vastly in taste and quality between towns as close
together as just 5 miles. Not only this, but a lot of breweries throughout
Europe (which is *not* one little country, by the way!), are built on
clearsprings, and that is the water used in these cases. HTH!

',;~}~


Shaun aRe

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> "" wrote:
>
> > What's really funny is;
> > US beer makers tout their "spring water"
> > or their "pure mountain water".
> > Beer "from the land of sky-blue water"
> > And the beer all tastes like bad alka-seltzer.
> >
>
> So far I agree.
>
> > Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !!
> > No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals.
> > And yet this questionable water makes great beer !
> > Go figure....
>
> As a a matter of fact, I have tasted European water. There is nothing
wrong
> with it.

As I commented to RJ - there isn't *one* European water - that would be like
saying that all water in the US is the damned same - there will be good
water in some locales, mediocre tasting water in others, and indeed foul
water in yet other different places.

Cheers!

Shaun aRe

"Victor Sack" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Smith > wrote:
>
> > Speaking of Belgium beers .... Stella Artois has been running the
funniest
> > television commercials for the beer.
>
> I've never seen those ads, but I've heard of them before. I wish they
> were running them here. They are trying to position Stella Artois as a
> "premium" brand. It's never been one before. :-)

Yeah, all that 'Reassuringly Expensive' ad. nonsense - it's an *ok* lager
IMO, worth the price but not the best for that money. I'd rather drink
Kronenbourg 1664 myself - much more flavourful and subtle. Stella is a bit
of a rough old tart really!




Shaun aRe

"Gabby" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Victor Sack" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dave Smith > wrote:
> >
> >> Speaking of Belgium beers .... Stella Artois has been running the
> >> funniest
> >> television commercials for the beer.
> >
> > I've never seen those ads, but I've heard of them before. I wish they
> > were running them here. They are trying to position Stella Artois as a
> > "premium" brand. It's never been one before. :-)
>
> The only Belgian beer I've tasted is Leffe and I must say I really like
it.
> One of my co-workers was in Toronto and, knowing that I like beer, brought
> me back a Polish one, a Czech one (they didn't impress me enough to try to
> remember the names) a Guinness (which I can get here) and a Leffe. While
I
> consider Guinness to be in a class by itself, of the others 3, Leffe was
by
> far my favourite.
>
> Gabby

Yup - I really enjoy Leffe too! I like those style of beers. Oh, another I
also enjoy quite a lot, and comes in draught over here now, is Hoegaarden -
another nice Weissbeer. They also make an extra special Hoegaarden, a 7 or
7.5% one, like a reserve or somesuch that's richer in flavour and warming,
too.

Would love to brew my own weissbeer sometime, spiced with coriander seed and
flavoured with some good dried orange peel... hmmm... !


Shaun aRe

"Faux_Pseudo" > wrote in message
news:qPYWe.23935$dm.8038@lakeread03...
> _.-In rec.food.cooking, Victor Sack wrote the following -._
> > Around here, it would be much easier for me to find actual Belgian beers
> > and even if it were not so, Belgium is only about 55 miles and less than
> > one hour from where I am. :-) I don't like any of the Belgian beers
> > much, though. As I posted before, I once had a comparative tasting of
> > quite a number of beers in a beer bar in Gent that offered beer
> > "flights" and have to say that I was sorely disappointed.
>
> That isn't just some "beer bar". That is a bar with more Belgian
> beers on tap then most bars the testicals for. The Tap House is great
> for its selection of EU beers on tap and not out of a bottle.
>
> This is of course you are talking about Gent, Norfolk, VA, USA.
>
> > Those lambic
>
> I have one in my cooler right now. I think they are great.

Ahhh, lambic beers - another style I've yet to try! So, what do they taste
like, are they slightly sour from the (malo-lactic is it?) bacterial
ferment? Gotta find me some to try for sure...



Shaun aRe

Shaun aRe wrote:

> > Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !!
> > No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals.
> > And yet this questionable water makes great beer !
> > Go figure....
>
> Hey - there *isn't* /a/ *European water*. Hells man, even in England alone
> the water can differ vastly in taste and quality between towns as close
> together as just 5 miles. Not only this, but a lot of breweries throughout
> Europe (which is *not* one little country, by the way!), are built on
> clearsprings, and that is the water used in these cases. HTH!

Would it surprise you that a someone who asks "Ever tasted European water"
probably hasn't tasted it himself. There are close to 2 dozen countries, each
with a wide source of water sources and each divided into states, provinces
and cities with jurisdiction over water services. Only a fool would have
expected a common taste.

Shaun aRe wrote:

> As I commented to RJ - there isn't *one* European water - that would be like
> saying that all water in the US is the damned same - there will be good
> water in some locales, mediocre tasting water in others, and indeed foul
> water in yet other different places. I live in southern Ontario. I get my
> water from a 20 foot well in my yard. One neighbour has a deeper dug well and
> the other has a 200 foot drilled well. All three are different. Our town
> water comes from an underground reservoir. The two closest cities get their
> uses water diverted from the Welland Canal, which is fed from Lake Erie, and
> the water is treated by the same regional government water services. Yet, the
> taste of their water can vary. A friend of mine lives in the Okanogan where
> water is cheap and plentiful, but tastes like crap.

I had no problems with the taste of tap water in Denmark, Germany, France and
Holland. It had no unpleasantness to it at all.

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article ws.net>,
> "Shaun aRe" > wrote:
>
> > "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article > ,
> > > Dog3 > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh man, this stuff sounds killer. A couple of shots of beer and
you're
> > on
> > > > the floor.
> > > > Fri Sep 9,11:24 AM ET
> > > >
> > > > BERLIN (Reuters) - A German brewer has concocted what he says is the
> > > > world's strongest beer, a potent drink with an alcohol content of
25.4
> > > > percent that is served in a shot glass.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, Michael, but this seems ridiculous, and nothing more than a
> > > publicity attempt (which has apparently worked, at least on this
group).
>
>
> > It may be a publicity stunt to some degree at least, but people have not
> > been making beverages this strong by fermentation alone (which this
*is*)
> > for hundreds of years at all, it is a comparitively recent thing. That
there
> > are beers that can now be brewed to these strengths at all is a direct
> > result of these 'strongest beer in the world' competitions between
different
> > brewers. Many techniques are used to achieve these high alcohol counts,
but
> > it all starts with yeasts specially bred to have a high tolerance for
> > alcohol.
>
> Thanks for an interesting post, Shaun.

You are most welcome! I wish I could have dug up some more info/references
etc. but my googling sucks more than a black hole. - I've long been
interested in brewing (mainly winemaking), so have played with high
tolerance yeasts myself and gradual sugar feeding for very strong wines -
best I got was nearly 20% abv. - it wasn't great but it was more than
drinkable! Strongest beer I ever made was with a friend's brother - got it
up to about 8%abv. Now that WAS tasty, just like a good tasty ordinary
strength beer, deceptively so as we uhmmm, found out... heh...

> I guess I was put off by a
> couple of things in the original post. The first was that producing a
> drink with this high a percentage of alcohol was something unique, and
> it was going to put you on the floor. The second was the concept that
> this stuff had to be served in a shot glass, because of its potency.

That's reporting for ya mate - it's story spin...

> > > They don't taste
> > > much like beer,
>
>
> > So you are taking issue with the naming of these as 'beers'?
>
>
> I guess so. It's more the wording of the whole thing than anything
> else. Do you know any self-respecting brewer who would be happy to be
> referred to as "concocting" their beer? Do you know of any producer of
> alcoholic beverages who would promote drinking them in shot glasses
> (other than the vilest drink that you want to get down without tasting
> it)?

As to the first question - no, I don't, but again - that's the reporting for
ya.

The second, well, if it's that strength of beer then why not in small
measures?

> I suppose I should give it a try before being so critical.

Chances are you wouldn't like it! I've found they tend to be too heavy with
the flavours, almost like it's ordinary beer that's been concentrated - too
syrupy for me! I have had some though that were rather nice, at around 17%
with just the right level of flavour strength. Haven't been able to find it
for years though since I forgot the name - think that might have been a
Czech one....

> I know that
> our locally brewery produces a barley wine. I think it is about 10%,
> but it is seasonal. My son has drunk some, but I've never tried it:
>
> http://lagunitas.com/beers/index.html

Hey - their stuff sounds good mate!

Cheers ',;~}~



Shaun aRe

Shaun aRe wrote:

> Yeah, all that 'Reassuringly Expensive' ad. nonsense - it's an *ok* lager
> IMO, worth the price but not the best for that money. I'd rather drink
> Kronenbourg 1664 myself - much more flavourful and subtle. Stella is a bit
> of a rough old tart really!

I mentioned previously about travelling through western Europe with two
brothers, both of whom love beer. They drank the local beer wherever we went
and 1664 was one of their top rated beers, right behind Carlsburg Elephant
beer and Bittburger.

Michel Boucher wrote:
>
> Dave Smith > wrote in
> :
>
> > "Poutine is Acadian slang for mushy mess and is best described as
> > a heart attack in a bowl."
> >
> > From: http://www.domesticgoddess.ca/recipes.php?recipe=10068
>
> Sheer crap.
>
> "Poutine rpée" in New Brunswick is wrapped and boiled potato
> shavings and it is *not* synonymous with mess and it has *no*
> relation to poutine as it exists in Québec.
>
> In Québec it *is* synonymous with mess, or was, whence the name given
> to a dish where "frites" and "fromage en grains" were served together
> for the very first time in Warwick (Bois-Francs) at the Lutin qui rit
> (on rue Saint-Louis) by the owner Fernand Lachance to trucker Jean-
> Guy Lainesse who asked him to put it together. Lainesse is reputed
> to have said: "Quelle poutine!" (What a mess!)
>
> The sauce was added later by Mme Lachance and it generally is brown
> sauce, not chicken gravy, unless it's a poutine WITH chicken.
>
> Obviously you have been seriously misled by your co-religionaries.
> No wonder you carry such deep-seated prejudices :-)

This site would somewhat disagree with the idea that "poutine"
means "mess" - at least not etymologically. Maybe aesthetically.
But not all "messes" are bad things. Some are quite good.

http://www.billcasselman.com/canadia...ds/cfw_six.htm

Kate

On 2005-09-16, <RJ> > wrote:

> Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !!
> No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals.
> And yet this questionable water makes great beer !
> Go figure....

The type of beer depends on the type of water. Soft waters of
Germany, lager and pilsners. Hard water of Ireland, stouts. England,
ales and porters. All these styles are dictated by the water. But,
with modern chemistry, brewers can duplicate the type, if not the
exact flavor, of water anywhere else.

As for the questionable water, you are correct. Before modern
sanitation practices, water was the primary carrier of many terrible
diseases. Better to drink something with a some sanitizing alcohol in
it than risk water borne death. Beer also has a lotta carbs, liquid
bread as some say. Workers commonly drank beer at lunch for a pick me
up. In fact, some beers, like porters, were prescribed by doctors to
adjust one's humors in the practice of Hippocratic medicine.

nb

nb

notbob wrote:

> The type of beer depends on the type of water. Soft waters of
> Germany, lager and pilsners. Hard water of Ireland, stouts. England,
> ales and porters. All these styles are dictated by the water. But,
> with modern chemistry, brewers can duplicate the type, if not the
> exact flavor, of water anywhere else.
>
> As for the questionable water, you are correct. Before modern
> sanitation practices, water was the primary carrier of many terrible
> diseases. Better to drink something with a some sanitizing alcohol in
> it than risk water borne death.

That may have been the case many decades ago. Most of Europe is quite
advanced. They have cleaned up the environment and have modern water
treatment facilities.

> Beer also has a lotta carbs, liquid
> bread as some say. Workers commonly drank beer at lunch for a pick me
> up. In fact, some beers, like porters, were prescribed by doctors to
> adjust one's humors in the practice of Hippocratic medicine.

Beer is commonly recommended for nursing mothers.

On 2005-09-19, Dave Smith > wrote:

> That may have been the case many decades ago. Most of Europe is quite
> advanced. They have cleaned up the environment and have modern water
> treatment facilities.

I was thinking more like several centuries ago.

nb

Kate Connally > wrote in
:

> This site would somewhat disagree with the idea that "poutine"
> means "mess" - at least not etymologically. Maybe aesthetically.
> But not all "messes" are bad things. Some are quite good.

Sort of like spaghetti. I think that it was meant in appreciation, not
as criticism. By the way, I posted the Globe and Mail article on this
group at one point so you can hunt that down on Google groups.

--

"Compassion is the chief law of human existence."

Dostoevski, The Idiot

_.-In rec.food.cooking, Shaun aRe wrote the following -._
> Ahhh, lambic beers - another style I've yet to try! So, what do they taste
> like, are they slightly sour from the (malo-lactic is it?) bacterial
> ferment? Gotta find me some to try for sure...

There is a sourness to them. I had one last night at Bier Garden in
Old Town Portsmith here in VA. A German themed place. They had more
Belgum beers than they did German. Good stuff. The food wasn't that
great but the beer was tasty.

--
.-')) fauxascii.com ('-. | It's a damn poor mind that
' ..- .:" ) ( ":. -.. ' | can only think of one way to
((,,_;'.;' UIN=66618055 ';. ';_,,)) | spell a word.
((_.YIM=Faux_Pseudo :._)) | - Andrew Jackson

On 2005-09-19, Shaun aRe > wrote:

>
> Ahhh, lambic beers - another style I've yet to try! So, what do they taste
> like, are they slightly sour from the (malo-lactic is it?) bacterial
> ferment? Gotta find me some to try for sure...
-----------

3. What makes a Lambic so different?

Several things. Generally, the first thing that a taster notices is
that the beer is sour. In the case of a good, traditional Lambic, like
those made by Cantillon or Frank Boon, the beer can be extremely sour.
Lambics usually have a very complex aroma and flavor that is caused by
the assortment of wild yeasts and bacteria present. Lambics also have
no hop character at all, only aged hops are used. Beyond that, the
best thing is to taste a few.

http://brewery.org/brewery/library/LambicFAQ.html

------------

Lambics are unique in their brewing process in that they use
spontaneous fermentation, that is, wild yeasts that occur naturally in
the open air and are fermented in large open vats that expose them to
these natural yeasts. I recall a picture of a lambic vat. Sucker had
more cobwebs than a Hollywood haunted house just inches above the vat.
All that spider poop and dead insects spicing up the brew. Yum!


nb

notbob > wrote:

> The type of beer depends on the type of water. Soft waters of
> Germany, lager and pilsners. Hard water of Ireland, stouts. England,
> ales and porters. All these styles are dictated by the water.

Maybe you are right in principle that a particular type of water is
better suited to a particular type of beer. Not sure of your examples,
though. Beer has been brewed for thousands of years of course, with
many different types emerging. Yet, until relatively recently all those
types used to be top-fermented, i.e. by modern definition ales. Lagers
(and pilsners, which are lagers, too), which are bottom-fermented, are a
fairly recent phenomenon and I'm not sure it was a particular type of
water that led to their emergence and their ever wider spreading.

Victor

On 2005-09-20, Victor Sack > wrote:

> Maybe you are right in principle that a particular type of water is
> better suited to a particular type of beer. Not sure of your examples,
> though. Beer has been brewed for thousands of years of course, with
> many different types emerging. Yet, until relatively recently all those
> types used to be top-fermented, i.e. by modern definition ales. Lagers
> (and pilsners, which are lagers, too), which are bottom-fermented, are a
> fairly recent phenomenon and I'm not sure it was a particular type of
> water that led to their emergence and their ever wider spreading.

Lagers originated in Bavaria where they were lagerned (stored) at
lower temps in alpine caves. The yeast that survived these lower
temps were bottom fermenting. While these low temp yeasts weren't
formally identified till the early 18th century, I suspect Bavarian
brewers were making use of those same caves long before the propeller
heads got involved.

As for the beer types, one of the differences between lagers and
true pilsners is Czech water is even softer than German water.

nb

nb

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:04:59 +0100, "Shaun aRe" >
wrote:
>>
>> > Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !!
>> > No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals.
>> > And yet this questionable water makes great beer !
>> > Go figure....
>>
>> As a a matter of fact, I have tasted European water. There is nothing
>wrong
>> with it.
>
>As I commented to RJ - there isn't *one* European water - that would be like
>saying that all water in the US is the damned same - there will be good
>water in some locales, mediocre tasting water in others, and indeed foul
>water in yet other different places.
>
>Cheers!
>
>Shaun aRe
>
I stand corrected.

I shouldn't have applied the experiences I had to a whole continent.
It was rather naive of me.
So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ?
The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?

<rj>

On 2005-09-20, <RJ> > wrote:

> So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ?
> The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?

The customers.

nb

"" wrote:

>
> I shouldn't have applied the experiences I had to a whole continent.
> It was rather naive of me.
> So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ?
> The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?

Those guys have been at it for years and create specific brews with lots of
flavours. North American beers, like fast foods and other commercial preparations
tend to be geared toward a wider range of users, eliminating those rough edges to
make them less offensive to all. They go go the lowest common denominator. They
also tend to market heavily, so the consumers seem to be more attracted to the
life style represented in the ads than the product itself.

notbob wrote:

> On 2005-09-20, <RJ> > wrote:
>
> > So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ?
> > The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?
>
> The customers.

Sadly, that seems to be the case. They are more likely to be
impressed with slick advertising and cheap prices than a quality
product. Profit minded breweries pump out low quality products
without much character because there are so many people who don't
appreciate the good stuff.

notbob > wrote:

[of the importance of the type of water for the type of beer]

> As for the beer types, one of the differences between lagers and
> true pilsners is Czech water is even softer than German water.

Yes, and, as I said, I think there is indeed more than just something to
be said about the suitability of a particular type of water to a
particular beer type, but I think that your upthread examples and
conclusions are not necessarily valid or are maybe just too general. If
you read German, here is the most exhaustive information I know on the
technical characteristics, water type included, of various beer types:
<http://www.kgbier.de/Biersorten.html>. They do not always support your
argument as far as I can see. For example, extremely soft water is
supposed to be used for Kölsch, a Cologne top-fermented (i.e. ale)
specialty. Hard water is used for Dortmunder Export type of beer, a very
popular German kind. Stouts require only moderately hard water, as harder
water prevents the dry finish expected with these beers. Sorry that I
can't provide a similarly authoritative source in English right now... no
time to spare for the search... or maybe there is none... :-(

Victor

On 2005-09-21, Victor Sack > wrote:

> particular beer type, but I think that your upthread examples and
> conclusions are not necessarily valid or are maybe just too general.

Oh yes, they were very general and based on historical fact, not
contemporary reality.

nb

Victor Sack > wrote:

> If
> you read German, here is the most exhaustive information I know on the
> technical characteristics, water type included, of various beer types:
> <http://www.kgbier.de/Biersorten.html>.
[snip]
> Sorry that I
> can't provide a similarly authoritative source in English right now... no
> time to spare for the search... or maybe there is none... :-(

I've now found the English counterpart... the link was right there on
the Web page I mentioned... duh!

<http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/>

Victor

Potent?

Baltika. Look into it.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Shaun aRe wrote:
>
> > As I commented to RJ - there isn't *one* European water - that would be
like
> > saying that all water in the US is the damned same - there will be good
> > water in some locales, mediocre tasting water in others, and indeed foul
> > water in yet other different places.

I wrote the above, Dave, haven't the first clue who the heck wrote this
below though! I'm in England, heheheh...

> I live in southern Ontario. I get my
> > water from a 20 foot well in my yard. One neighbour has a deeper dug
well and
> > the other has a 200 foot drilled well. All three are different. Our
town
> > water comes from an underground reservoir. The two closest cities get
their
> > uses water diverted from the Welland Canal, which is fed from Lake Erie,
and
> > the water is treated by the same regional government water services.
Yet, the
> > taste of their water can vary. A friend of mine lives in the Okanogan
where
> > water is cheap and plentiful, but tastes like crap.
>
> I had no problems with the taste of tap water in Denmark, Germany, France
and
> Holland. It had no unpleasantness to it at all.

Bet you coulda found some awful water if you'd tried hard enough though
',;~}~


Shaun aRe

"<RJ>" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:04:59 +0100, "Shaun aRe"
>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !!
> >> > No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals.
> >> > And yet this questionable water makes great beer !
> >> > Go figure....
> >>
> >> As a a matter of fact, I have tasted European water. There is nothing
> >wrong
> >> with it.
> >
> >As I commented to RJ - there isn't *one* European water - that would be
like
> >saying that all water in the US is the damned same - there will be good
> >water in some locales, mediocre tasting water in others, and indeed foul
> >water in yet other different places.
> >
> >Cheers!
> >
> >Shaun aRe
> >
> I stand corrected.
>
> I shouldn't have applied the experiences I had to a whole continent.
> It was rather naive of me.

Maybe a little, RJ, but you are of course forgiven LOL! ',;~}~

> So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ?
> The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?

The simplest and most accurate answer to that question, would be *yes*.
',;~}~

HTH!

Shaun aRe