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  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
karapanomanolokopoulos
 
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>But actually, over 90 percent of the language
>did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call

"linguistic
>engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to

imagine.
OK this is a direct quote from ataturk.com, "Ataturk.com is a
non-profit organization, whose primary goals are, educate world about
Ataturk, Turkish culture and heritage"
"The transformation met with unparalleled success: In the 1920s, the
written language consisted of more than 80 percent Arabic, Persian, and
French words; by the early 1980s the ratio had declined to a mere 10
percent."

Oh, I think I understand it perfectly ;-)

As far as the yoghurt sauce goes, I don't doubt it could be Turk in
origins, but the version we both know today is probably a later
modification. At least I've not seen many other places where whey is
strained out of yoghurt..... maybe Bulgaria?

As for Dolmas: It's very possible the traditional version with meat and
cabbage wrapping came from Asia. Various types of dumplings are common
throughout Asia, and so is cabbage. The vegeterian version though
(Yalancee?) had to be developed in the Meditteranean. Grape leaves
simply don't exist in the steppes.

>I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting

for you
>to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved

to
>present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia --

Well, there are many versions of where the Greek tribes descented from
in to the Balkan Peninsula. Are you referring to the Caucasus mountains
theory?
BTW, The Chinese make a distinction beteween the Mongols in the north
and the muslim Chinese in the west which are believed to be Turkic,
closely related to Khazaks. In other words, Turks are a Mongolian type
of people, but not all Mongols are Turks. Hence claiming that both that
Moguls and the Yuan dynasty were Turkic, is an exaggeration at best!

>We are all humans and we are all brothers. If
>you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness

I guess you can argue that we're all human beings etc, that is the
popular view promoted today, and that ethnic divisions and promotion of
nationalist theories can only lead to conflict and eventually
bloodshed. I would agree to an extend that diversity in rare cases
brings strength, but more often than not it can lead to conflict. It's
happening right now in Europe, and the admission of Turkey in the EU is
right in the middle of the debate....... but this is beyond the scope
of this food thread. ;-)

  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
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choro-nik wrote:
> "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > >I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in

Turkish
> > written
> >>cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name

directly
> > from
> >>Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound

> > (represented by
> >>the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that

> > sound in
> >>the Greek alphabet.

> > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish

language
> > is a result of linguistic engineering.

>
> I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the

Turkish
> language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the

Latin
> alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words

that had
> crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which

were not
> immediately understood by the population at large. These words were

replaced
> by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is

Muallim
> (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of

great
> knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme

was a
> root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the

highest
> court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From

Ogren
> (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody who
> teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student became

Orgenci
> which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root

word
> for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from

Giy/mek
> meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To

Wear. So
> you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing
> sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a

School
> instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the

language
> did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call

"linguistic
> engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to

imagine.
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards

plain
> English in contracts and other such documents, you will better

understand
> the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th century.

It
> certainly did not become a language that people could not understand

but
> rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written and

spoken
> word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root

words and
> how other words were developed from those foreign root words .
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Mongols do various yoghurt
> > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen

it
> > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version

is a
> > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend

it.
> > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian,

it's
> > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central

Asia.
> > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is
> > different.

> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one

sort or
> another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are
> extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not

to my
> taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had

some
> lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category.
>
> Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would have

to be
> written in English so those others following our conversation can

pronounce
> it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik.

However,
> don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India

were
> acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect
and
> introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were
> assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your

information
> King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the

everyday
> language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the

30s and
> my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they

spoke in
> Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they

engaged
> in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was

actually a
> large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King Farouk

was
> the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt due

to his
> education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the

British at
> the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the

Egyptian
> Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been

assimilated into
> the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course.
>
> During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in

favor
> or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner laid

in his
> honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were all
> waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still and

after a
> while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was

waiting for
> him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So? I

can't
> start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly

sent
> somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run

of the
> mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel

that I
> should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his

memoirs. And
> he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would have

made
> quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever

get
> round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with

life?
>
> Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main topic

but
> hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the

Turkish
> language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware

of.
> Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the

father and
> the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many

Cypriots
> of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the gambling

dens
> in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious
> gentlemanly father's life style.
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has

been in
> the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not known

for
> their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were
> introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty

that set
> up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I

thought
> this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject or

even
> read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept

that the
> so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now

going to
> claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers

were
> Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls who

was
> exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on home.

These
> rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with

the
> result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact

Moslem
> Indians.
>
> >
> >>And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you

> > Greekified
> >>the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is

> > something
> >>stuffed?

> > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in
> > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's

Turks
> > make it, but where they got it from is another story.

>
> But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being

Dol
> meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something

that is
> stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is

also
> Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in

leaves as
> opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled

by being
> filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas.

Actually Sarma
> is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in

leaves.
> Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma is

an
> indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades

where the
> ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma

(singular)
> Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is

reserved
> for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally

used.
> Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate

as it
> opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which

one
> its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless

neutral
> gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously

masculine
> Man).
>
> And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that

are
> based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical

facts, let
> me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly

borrowed
> from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is a

clear
> distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO and

TO in
> Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this

keeps you
> happy.
>
> In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin to

the
> use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you

catch you
> say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel

please?
> But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT types

of
> Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types

of
> Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually far
> tastier than the ordinary mackerel.
>
>
> >
> > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout

the
> > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a "tourkiko
> > kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it from the
> > Ethiopians

>
> I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know

that
> coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you

that the
> preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is

quite
> probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that

Turkish
> coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because

Europeans
> first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee

is
> nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing
> different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee.
>
>
> >
> >>And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the

> > heartland of
> >>Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins

of
> > Greeks.
> >>How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.

> > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they

are
> > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the

originators of
> > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient

ones
> > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks used

to
> > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to

support
> > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and

Roman
> > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean.

>
> I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting

for you
> to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved

to
> present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other

words
> more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we

extended
> further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at

one
> stage.
>
> > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original
> > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised
> > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists.
> > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-)
> > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), 10%
> > Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic.

>
> I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to

contest your
> figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples,

assimilated
> them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing

wrong
> with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all

such
> matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all

brothers. If
> you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness.
>
> But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the

peoples of
> lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that

you set
> up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw,

I
> learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of

conquered
> lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be

deprived of
> their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks

colonialists who
> engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other

words,
> you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike

the
> European colonialists you assimilated the native population and

eventually
> you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the

latter
> day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves

and
> making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy

only
> works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days

giving
> everybody the chance to adjust.
>
> >
> >>I leave you to mull this point over.

> > ;-)

>
> Nice remark.
> ;-) from me too.
>
> >


  #83 (permalink)   Report Post  
markrivers
 
Posts: n/a
Default


choro-nik wrote:
> "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > >I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in

Turkish
> > written
> >>cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name

directly
> > from
> >>Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound

> > (represented by
> >>the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that

> > sound in
> >>the Greek alphabet.

> > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish

language
> > is a result of linguistic engineering.

>
> I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the

Turkish
> language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the

Latin
> alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words

that had
> crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which

were not
> immediately understood by the population at large. These words were

replaced
> by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is

Muallim
> (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of

great
> knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme

was a
> root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the

highest
> court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From

Ogren
> (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody who
> teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student became

Orgenci
> which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root

word
> for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from

Giy/mek
> meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To

Wear. So
> you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing
> sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a

School
> instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the

language
> did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call

"linguistic
> engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to

imagine.
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards

plain
> English in contracts and other such documents, you will better

understand
> the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th century.

It
> certainly did not become a language that people could not understand

but
> rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written and

spoken
> word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root

words and
> how other words were developed from those foreign root words .
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Mongols do various yoghurt
> > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen

it
> > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version

is a
> > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend

it.
> > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian,

it's
> > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central

Asia.
> > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is
> > different.

> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one

sort or
> another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are
> extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not

to my
> taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had

some
> lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category.
>
> Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would have

to be
> written in English so those others following our conversation can

pronounce
> it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik.

However,
> don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India

were
> acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect
and
> introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were
> assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your

information
> King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the

everyday
> language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the

30s and
> my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they

spoke in
> Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they

engaged
> in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was

actually a
> large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King Farouk

was
> the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt due

to his
> education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the

British at
> the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the

Egyptian
> Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been

assimilated into
> the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course.
>
> During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in

favor
> or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner laid

in his
> honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were all
> waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still and

after a
> while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was

waiting for
> him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So? I

can't
> start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly

sent
> somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run

of the
> mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel

that I
> should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his

memoirs. And
> he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would have

made
> quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever

get
> round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with

life?
>
> Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main topic

but
> hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the

Turkish
> language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware

of.
> Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the

father and
> the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many

Cypriots
> of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the gambling

dens
> in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious
> gentlemanly father's life style.
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).


Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to

hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization

founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).


Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,

to be increased one-half).


Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).


Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).


Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national

identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).



> Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has

been in
> the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not known

for
> their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were
> introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty

that set
> up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I

thought
> this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject or

even
> read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept

that the
> so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now

going to
> claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers

were
> Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls who

was
> exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on home.

These
> rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with

the
> result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact

Moslem
> Indians.
>
> >
> >>And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you

> > Greekified
> >>the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is

> > something
> >>stuffed?

> > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in
> > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's

Turks
> > make it, but where they got it from is another story.

>
> But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being

Dol
> meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something

that is
> stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is

also
> Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in

leaves as
> opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled

by being
> filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas.

Actually Sarma
> is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in

leaves.
> Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma is

an
> indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades

where the
> ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma

(singular)
> Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is

reserved
> for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally

used.
> Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate

as it
> opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which

one
> its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless

neutral
> gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously

masculine
> Man).
>
> And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that

are
> based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical

facts, let
> me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly

borrowed
> from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is a

clear
> distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO and

TO in
> Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this

keeps you
> happy.
>
> In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin to

the
> use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you

catch you
> say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel

please?
> But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT types

of
> Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types

of
> Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually far
> tastier than the ordinary mackerel.
>
>
> >
> > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout

the
> > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a "tourkiko
> > kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it from the
> > Ethiopians

>
> I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know

that
> coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you

that the
> preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is

quite
> probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that

Turkish
> coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because

Europeans
> first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee

is
> nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing
> different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee.
>
>
> >
> >>And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the

> > heartland of
> >>Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins

of
> > Greeks.
> >>How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.

> > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they

are
> > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the

originators of
> > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient

ones
> > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks used

to
> > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to

support
> > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and

Roman
> > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean.

>
> I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting

for you
> to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved

to
> present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other

words
> more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we

extended
> further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at

one
> stage.
>
> > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original
> > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised
> > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists.
> > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-)
> > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), 10%
> > Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic.

>
> I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to

contest your
> figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples,

assimilated
> them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing

wrong
> with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all

such
> matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all

brothers. If
> you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness.
>
> But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the

peoples of
> lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that

you set
> up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw,

I
> learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of

conquered
> lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be

deprived of
> their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks

colonialists who
> engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other

words,
> you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike

the
> European colonialists you assimilated the native population and

eventually
> you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the

latter
> day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves

and
> making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy

only
> works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days

giving
> everybody the chance to adjust.
>
> >
> >>I leave you to mull this point over.

> > ;-)

>
> Nice remark.
> ;-) from me too.
>
> >


  #84 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sheldon Sean'sbitchslapper
 
Posts: n/a
Default

markrivers wrote:

>
> choro-nik wrote:
> > "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in
> > message
> > oups.com...
> > > > I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in

> Turkish
> > > written
> > > > cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name

> directly
> > > from
> > > > Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound
> > > (represented by
> > > > the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have
> > > > that
> > > sound in
> > > > the Greek alphabet.
> > > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish

> language
> > > is a result of linguistic engineering.

> >
> > I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the

> Turkish
> > language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the

> Latin
> > alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words

> that had
> > crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which

> were not
> > immediately understood by the population at large. These words were

> replaced
> > by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is

> Muallim
> > (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of

> great
> > knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme

> was a
> > root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the

> highest
> > court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From

> Ogren
> > (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody
> > who teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student
> > became

> Orgenci
> > which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root

> word
> > for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from

> Giy/mek
> > meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To

> Wear. So
> > you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing
> > sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a

> School
> > instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the

> language
> > did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call

> "linguistic
> > engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to

> imagine.
> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards

> plain
> > English in contracts and other such documents, you will better

> understand
> > the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th
> > century.

> It
> > certainly did not become a language that people could not understand

> but
> > rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written
> > and

> spoken
> > word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root

> words and
> > how other words were developed from those foreign root words .
> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Mongols do various yoghurt
> > > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen

> it
> > > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version

> is a
> > > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend

> it.
> > > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian,

> it's
> > > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central

> Asia.
> > > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is
> > > different.

> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one

> sort or
> > another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are
> > extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not

> to my
> > taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had

> some
> > lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category.
> >
> > Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would
> > have

> to be
> > written in English so those others following our conversation can

> pronounce
> > it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik.

> However,
> > don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India

> were
> > acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect
> and
> > introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were
> > assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your

> information
> > King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the

> everyday
> > language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the

> 30s and
> > my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they

> spoke in
> > Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they

> engaged
> > in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was

> actually a
> > large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King
> > Farouk

> was
> > the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt
> > due

> to his
> > education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the

> British at
> > the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the

> Egyptian
> > Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been

> assimilated into
> > the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course.
> >
> > During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in

> favor
> > or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner
> > laid

> in his
> > honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were
> > all waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still
> > and

> after a
> > while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was

> waiting for
> > him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So?
> > I

> can't
> > start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly

> sent
> > somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run

> of the
> > mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel

> that I
> > should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his

> memoirs. And
> > he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would
> > have

> made
> > quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever

> get
> > round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with

> life?
> >
> > Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main
> > topic

> but
> > hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the

> Turkish
> > language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware

> of.
> > Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the

> father and
> > the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many

> Cypriots
> > of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the
> > gambling

> dens
> > in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious
> > gentlemanly father's life style.
> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed

> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has

> been in
> > the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not
> > known

> for
> > their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were
> > introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty

> that set
> > up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I

> thought
> > this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject
> > or

> even
> > read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept

> that the
> > so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now

> going to
> > claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers

> were
> > Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls
> > who

> was
> > exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on
> > home.

> These
> > rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with

> the
> > result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact

> Moslem
> > Indians.
> >
> > >
> > > > And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you
> > > Greekified
> > > > the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is
> > > something
> > > > stuffed?
> > > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in
> > > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's

> Turks
> > > make it, but where they got it from is another story.

> >
> > But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being

> Dol
> > meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something

> that is
> > stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is

> also
> > Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in

> leaves as
> > opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled

> by being
> > filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas.

> Actually Sarma
> > is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in

> leaves.
> > Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma
> > is

> an
> > indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades

> where the
> > ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma

> (singular)
> > Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is

> reserved
> > for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally

> used.
> > Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate

> as it
> > opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which

> one
> > its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless

> neutral
> > gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously

> masculine
> > Man).
> >
> > And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that

> are
> > based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical

> facts, let
> > me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly

> borrowed
> > from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is
> > a

> clear
> > distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO
> > and

> TO in
> > Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this

> keeps you
> > happy.
> >
> > In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin
> > to

> the
> > use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you

> catch you
> > say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel

> please?
> > But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT
> > types

> of
> > Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types

> of
> > Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually
> > far tastier than the ordinary mackerel.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout

> the
> > > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a
> > > "tourkiko kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it
> > > from the Ethiopians

> >
> > I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know

> that
> > coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you

> that the
> > preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is

> quite
> > probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that

> Turkish
> > coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because

> Europeans
> > first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee

> is
> > nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing
> > different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the
> > > heartland of
> > > > Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic
> > > > origins

> of
> > > Greeks.
> > > > How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.
> > > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they

> are
> > > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the

> originators of
> > > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient

> ones
> > > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks
> > > used

> to
> > > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to

> support
> > > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and

> Roman
> > > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean.

> >
> > I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting

> for you
> > to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved

> to
> > present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other

> words
> > more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we

> extended
> > further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at

> one
> > stage.
> >
> > > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original
> > > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised
> > > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists.
> > > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-)
> > > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians),
> > > 10% Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic.

> >
> > I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to

> contest your
> > figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples,

> assimilated
> > them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing

> wrong
> > with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all

> such
> > matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all

> brothers. If
> > you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness.
> >
> > But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the

> peoples of
> > lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that

> you set
> > up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw,

> I
> > learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of

> conquered
> > lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be

> deprived of
> > their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks

> colonialists who
> > engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other

> words,
> > you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike

> the
> > European colonialists you assimilated the native population and

> eventually
> > you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the

> latter
> > day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves

> and
> > making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy

> only
> > works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days

> giving
> > everybody the chance to adjust.
> >
> > >
> > > > I leave you to mull this point over.
> > > ;-)

> >
> > Nice remark.
> > ;-) from me too.
> >
> > >


How many mark rivers are there?

--
Sean O'Kilfoyle is just another stupid Turk!!!.
Mark Rivers is just as stupid, and AttilaAtaman
is their common male lover!!!!!!!!!!
  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
MisTerGyRo
 
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yES ThEy ArE gREaT!



  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
karapanomanolokopoulos
 
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>You are certainly not the aboriginal peoples of what is now Greece.
You mean a pelasgian? The Messenians next door maybe, but not me
........that would make me a helot. I'm a Lacedemonian, so there! I've
told you before that Turks were not around my hood.

>Come, I'll offer you a Turkish coffee in a gesture of friendship.

Sorry, I
>tried to get some Greek coffee but it doesn't exist apparently. But

just
>think of it as Greek coffee and be happy.

I'm no friend of coffee, but if you want to offer friendship, I'd
appreciate it if you increased Seanie's and markrivers medication.
Their manic depression is becoming annoying :-)

>And while you wait while I prepare the Turkish coffee, would you like

some
>Turkish lokum with roast nuts in them? If you are not happy with

Turkish
>Lokum just add the letter "i" at the end of it and presto it becomes

Greek Lokumi.
I find the two versions quite a bit different frankly, and I can't say
I like either one. Maybe the one from the island Syros is OK

>And BTW, what sort of nuts would you like me to roast and add to the

lokum/i?
> I've got a very sharp knife as good as any surgeons use.
>How about your very own nuts? That will truly make the lokum/i truly

Greek.
Don't know what kind of stuff you're into, but stay away from my nuts
unless you're female, and no transexual one...... otherwise you're
barking up the wrong tree!

  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
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"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >But actually, over 90 percent of the language
>>did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call

> "linguistic
>>engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to

> imagine.
> OK this is a direct quote from ataturk.com, "Ataturk.com is a
> non-profit organization, whose primary goals are, educate world about
> Ataturk, Turkish culture and heritage"
> "The transformation met with unparalleled success: In the 1920s, the
> written language consisted of more than 80 percent Arabic, Persian, and
> French words; by the early 1980s the ratio had declined to a mere 10
> percent."


I have no idea of this site but their claim is a gross over exaggeration.
Personally I think that my personal estimate of 10 percent is much nearer
the mark. Also note that they are talking about the written language (i.e.
the old Ottoman Court language) when it was common for officials to use as
many high-flying and not commonly understood words and phrases borrowed from
Persian or Arabic much as the legalese in English language documents that
only lawyers could understand in English. Luckily that is fast disappearing
from the English language also with government encouragement for the use of
plain English. That does not mean that the English language has changed only
that the legalese small print has changed.

The normal everyday Turkish has not changed all that much apart from words
and terms developed from common Turkish roots as I tried to explain to you
the other day.

But tell me, didn't your teachers ever teach you not to believe everything
you ever see in print? May I suggest that you apply the same logic to web
pages.

And now here is an anecdote. One day a neighbor knocked on Nasreddin
Hodja's door and asked whether he could borrow his donkey for the afternoon.
Hodja said, "Sorry but so-and-so has borrowed my donkey for the day". And
just then Hodja's donkey started braying. The neighbor looked quizzically at
Hodja as if to say, "You are lying to me, aren't you?" whereupon the Hodja
put his hand on his long white beard and said to the neighbor: "But
neighbor, don't you trust the word of a wise old sage and you trust the
braying of a donkey."

OK, so if you saw the claim that 80 percent of Turkish is no more and that
it has been wiped off the Turkish language since 1920, and you believe this,
then who am I to try and convince you that this is a grossly exaggerated
claim?

The earth is flat, after all, isn't it and the sun rotates around the earth?


>
> Oh, I think I understand it perfectly ;-)
>
> As far as the yoghurt sauce goes, I don't doubt it could be Turk in
> origins, but the version we both know today is probably a later
> modification. At least I've not seen many other places where whey is
> strained out of yoghurt..... maybe Bulgaria?
>
> As for Dolmas: It's very possible the traditional version with meat and
> cabbage wrapping came from Asia. Various types of dumplings are common
> throughout Asia, and so is cabbage. The vegeterian version though
> (Yalancee?) had to be developed in the Meditteranean. Grape leaves
> simply don't exist in the steppes.


Yalanci (pronounced Yalandji) Dolma is as you say the vegetarian version of
Dolma. But what makes you think that vineleaves are the only leaves that
can be used to wrap Dolma? The Turkey where Yalanci Dolma is very popular
they use other types of leaves to wrap Dolmas. In fact my favorite wrapped
Dolma are not the ones wrapped in vineleaves though vineleaf wrapped dolmas
have become more or less the only version known in Europe. Incidentally,
Yalan in Turkish means a lie, an untruth. Yalanci means a liar, a cheat.
Hence, Yalanci Dolma where you are cheated of the minced lamb content of the
dish.

OK you say that I rely too much on the origin of words used in naming these
dishes. But of course I am. How else would all these Turkish words come to
be used in naming the variants of these dishes? It would be like arguing
that the English terminology used in computing does not point out to
countries where computing originated. Would you seek any other origin to
such computing terms as e-mail, web pages, copy and paste, URL etc other
than an English speaking country?

>
>>I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting

> for you
>>to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved

> to
>>present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia --

> Well, there are many versions of where the Greek tribes descented from
> in to the Balkan Peninsula. Are you referring to the Caucasus mountains
> theory?
> BTW, The Chinese make a distinction beteween the Mongols in the north
> and the muslim Chinese in the west which are believed to be Turkic,
> closely related to Khazaks. In other words, Turks are a Mongolian type
> of people, but not all Mongols are Turks. Hence claiming that both that
> Moguls and the Yuan dynasty were Turkic, is an exaggeration at best!
>
>>We are all humans and we are all brothers. If
>>you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness

> I guess you can argue that we're all human beings etc, that is the
> popular view promoted today, and that ethnic divisions and promotion of
> nationalist theories can only lead to conflict and eventually
> bloodshed. I would agree to an extend that diversity in rare cases
> brings strength, but more often than not it can lead to conflict. It's
> happening right now in Europe, and the admission of Turkey in the EU is
> right in the middle of the debate....... but this is beyond the scope
> of this food thread. ;-)



True, we are all humans and we are all brothers. Also true that ethnic
divisions can eventually lead to conflicts. That's why we have to
concentrate on what unites us rather than what divides us. It is not only
ethnic divisions that can lead to conflicts. What about religious divisions?
The sectarian wars in Europe come to mind here. What about tribal and racial
divisions? Europe is to this day very much a racist society despite or maybe
because of long, long wars between European antagonists that culminated in
WW1 and WW2 and which didn't really come to an end as WW2 was soon followed
by the Cold War which itself is not quite over yet.

And what about divisions as to which football team we support?

I hope with this last question I'll have given you food for thought!



  #88 (permalink)   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
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Th einai magala, re? Ta arxhdia sou, h o kephalos sou, you bighead?

Ksereis na milas, re kserokefalo?
--
choro-nik
********

"MisTerGyRo" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> yES ThEy ArE gREaT!
>



  #89 (permalink)   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, karapanamanolokopoulos, all I can say is that at least you have got a
sense of humor.

But tell me, was it you Greeks who gave the idea to the Americans to rename
French Fries like you changed Turkish Doner into Greek Gyros? :-) <wink,
wink>

--
choro-nik
********
"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >You are certainly not the aboriginal peoples of what is now Greece.

> You mean a pelasgian? The Messenians next door maybe, but not me
> .......that would make me a helot. I'm a Lacedemonian, so there! I've
> told you before that Turks were not around my hood.
>
>>Come, I'll offer you a Turkish coffee in a gesture of friendship.

> Sorry, I
>>tried to get some Greek coffee but it doesn't exist apparently. But

> just
>>think of it as Greek coffee and be happy.

> I'm no friend of coffee, but if you want to offer friendship, I'd
> appreciate it if you increased Seanie's and markrivers medication.
> Their manic depression is becoming annoying :-)
>
>>And while you wait while I prepare the Turkish coffee, would you like

> some
>>Turkish lokum with roast nuts in them? If you are not happy with

> Turkish
>>Lokum just add the letter "i" at the end of it and presto it becomes

> Greek Lokumi.
> I find the two versions quite a bit different frankly, and I can't say
> I like either one. Maybe the one from the island Syros is OK
>
>>And BTW, what sort of nuts would you like me to roast and add to the

> lokum/i?
>> I've got a very sharp knife as good as any surgeons use.
>>How about your very own nuts? That will truly make the lokum/i truly

> Greek.
> Don't know what kind of stuff you're into, but stay away from my nuts
> unless you're female, and no transexual one...... otherwise you're
> barking up the wrong tree!
>



  #90 (permalink)   Report Post  
karapanomanolokopoulos
 
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>OK, so if you saw the claim that 80 percent of Turkish is no more and
that
>it has been wiped off the Turkish language since 1920, and you believe

this,
>then who am I to try and convince you that this is a grossly

exaggerated
>claim?
>The earth is flat, after all, isn't it and the sun rotates around the

earth?
Are you saying that ataturk.com is lying? As far as I can tell they are
Turks

>OK you say that I rely too much on the origin of words used in naming

these
>dishes. But of course I am. How else would all these Turkish words

come to
>be used in naming the variants of these dishes?

Yes, but there are two problems with this:
First, Greeks spoke some Turkish during the occupation to get around.
It is entirely possible these "Turkish" names are corrupted Greek
words, like Ismir, Ispanak, Instanbul etc.
If these dishes were Turkish in their present form, you'd find them
everywhere Turanics live, and that's not the case.

>True, we are all humans and we are all brothers. Also true that ethnic


>divisions can eventually lead to conflicts. That's why we have to
>concentrate on what unites us rather than what divides us. It is not

only
>ethnic divisions that can lead to conflicts.

That sounds fine in a hippie kinda way until Muslim girls decide they
want to wear a headscarf in a French school..... then you'll have
conflict and it's only the beginning.
Look, the world is full of cultural conflicts. It's fortunate that it's
not always armed conflict, but certain cultures prevail and others
disappear. You can find hardly anything of the Japanese culture
remaining in Japan today. The Chinese are even more ferocious in
adopting western ways. The west is really pushing hard its way of life
to the Middle East today, and the response is mixed.

>What about religious divisions?
>The sectarian wars in Europe come to mind here. What about tribal and

racial
>divisions?

Most of the time economics are the root cause. You don't see the US
bombing the Saudis..... do you? Neither do you see documentaries about
how prisoners are mistreated in Saudi Arabia nor there no big outcry
about human rights in that kingdom

>Europe is to this day very much a racist society despite or maybe
>because of long, long wars between European antagonists that

culminated in
>WW1 and WW2 and which didn't really come to an end as WW2 was soon

followed
>by the Cold War which itself is not quite over yet.

Well, the term racist has been thrown around so much, I really don't
even know what it means anymore. Racist this racist that...blah blah
blah. You have many different dynamics in European politics and saying
they are racist would be trivializing it.

Wars in Europe too were primarily caused due to economics. England and
France fought bitterly over and over, but now they don't care for that,
mostly because they have a pretty good living. You're much less likely
to be a militant if you've got a lot to lose. If you got nothing to
lose on the other hand..... you get my gist.
Anyway, it's a complex issue.....but if you and some other Turks here
think Europe is racist, why does your govt try so hard to get admitted
to the EU? It seems masochistic to me



  #91 (permalink)   Report Post  
Splicer1X
 
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Now that's interesting. The Turkish would-be smartie boy "choro-fag"
runs to the
defense of the biggest idiot existing on usenet.Choro-fag is not so
smart after all?
Or is it your sexual aberration, that you never manage to hide for too
long, that attracts you when shit like marktrivers in involved?
How does it feel, to be stunned and delayed in development, being
emotionally and sexually handicapped, unable to **** a human? That's
what
it's all about with you, you anal, subnormal talking piece of shit!
choro-fag.
You better get a second boy, retard. Obviously Seanie-boy is not enough
for
you to make you feel at ease with yourself and the world.
choro-nik wrote:
> What do you eat when you are at home? Obviously bangers and mash or
> McDonalds and chips. I'd give the sack to your partner if I were you.

She
> obviously doesn't know how to cook.
>
> --
> choro-nik
> ********
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > when I went to Greece all I ate was gyros. You think they are good
> > here . . . well you havent a good one then becuas they are

absolutely
> > amazing. We were in IOS and we went to this local hole in the

whole 2x
> > a day. We would eat them when we were not even hungry
> >


  #92 (permalink)   Report Post  
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
 
Posts: n/a
Default



SO, THOSE *** RAPE KURDISH STYLE STORIES YOU USED TO LOVE TO TELL ARE
TOO PAINFUL FOR YOU NOW OR WHAT ?

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

  #93 (permalink)   Report Post  
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
 
Posts: n/a
Default



HOW ABOUT BLACK TURKOGRIK Mr. KARAgriklingopoulosodopoulosothoth ADMITS
THAT griks ARE A *******ISED MISH MASH OF SLAV ALBANIAN TURK AND BALKAN
GYPO then ?

  #94 (permalink)   Report Post  
karapanomanolokopoulos
 
Posts: n/a
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Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to your
lover Yavrukurt.
Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way!

  #95 (permalink)   Report Post  
uNjoyMiceElf
 
Posts: n/a
Default


karapanomanolokopoulos wrote:
> Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to

your
> lover Yavrukurt.
> Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way!


Quit crossposting this crap to rmgd. Noone cares about you ass ****ing
greeks, or you hand cutting turks. Go away and don't come back. All of
your food sux.



  #96 (permalink)   Report Post  
Panta Rhei
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Seanie O'Kilfoyle writes:

> SO, THOSE *** RAPE KURDISH STYLE STORIES YOU USED TO LOVE TO TELL ARE
> TOO PAINFUL FOR YOU NOW OR WHAT ?
>
> *ROTFFLMFAOAY*


?

Delirious, as usual, Beanie Tinfoil? LOL Don't you think it's time for you
to put yourself into a mental hospital by now? LMAO! Beanie Tinfoil!!!
Hahah...
  #97 (permalink)   Report Post  
gogu
 
Posts: n/a
Default

? "karapanomanolokopoulos" > ?????? ??? ??????
oups.com...
> Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to your
> lover Yavrukurt.
> Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way!



Exactly !
And there is *ONE* more screen name you don't know !

--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins, travels and mo http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html


  #98 (permalink)   Report Post  
Panta Rhei
 
Posts: n/a
Default

karapanomanolokopoulos writes:

> Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to your
> lover Yavrukurt.
> Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way!


LOL He's getting worse by the day. Amazing to watch!
  #99 (permalink)   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >OK, so if you saw the claim that 80 percent of Turkish is no more and

> that
> >it has been wiped off the Turkish language since 1920, and you believe

> this,
> >then who am I to try and convince you that this is a grossly

> exaggerated
> >claim?
> >The earth is flat, after all, isn't it and the sun rotates around the

> earth?


> Are you saying that ataturk.com is lying? As far as I can tell they are
> Turks.


I don't think their figures really tally with reality. As I said before, do
not take anything either printed or keyed in as gospel truth. Otherwise, we
must believe that the earth is hundreds of million years old while at the
same time it is only 6,000 years old. And we know that both assumptions
cannot be true yet both figures are in print as well as appearing on web
pages.

>
> >OK you say that I rely too much on the origin of words used in naming

> these
> >dishes. But of course I am. How else would all these Turkish words

> come to
> >be used in naming the variants of these dishes?


> Yes, but there are two problems with this:
> First, Greeks spoke some Turkish during the occupation to get around.
> It is entirely possible these "Turkish" names are corrupted Greek
> words, like Ismir, Ispanak, Instanbul etc.
> If these dishes were Turkish in their present form, you'd find them
> everywhere Turanics live, and that's not the case.


But while I agree with you re Smyrna/Izmir, Eis-thn-Poli/Istanbul and
possibly re Ispanak, you will find that the dishes we were talking about do
exist in other Turkic regions. But your reasoning that basic Turkish root
words could be corrupted are completely groundless.

>
> >True, we are all humans and we are all brothers. Also true that ethnic

>
> >divisions can eventually lead to conflicts. That's why we have to
> >concentrate on what unites us rather than what divides us. It is not

> only
> >ethnic divisions that can lead to conflicts.



> That sounds fine in a hippie kinda way until Muslim girls decide they
> want to wear a headscarf in a French school..... then you'll have
> conflict and it's only the beginning.
> Look, the world is full of cultural conflicts. It's fortunate that it's
> not always armed conflict, but certain cultures prevail and others
> disappear. You can find hardly anything of the Japanese culture
> remaining in Japan today. The Chinese are even more ferocious in
> adopting western ways. The west is really pushing hard its way of life
> to the Middle East today, and the response is mixed.


Western customs and traditions are certainly becoming the accepted norm all
over the world. I see nothing wrong with that so long as what is best in
Western customs are adopted. What you are forgetting though is that there is
also growing appreciation of far eastern ideologies in the west. What
eventually happens is that you tend to get a fusion of the two traditions. I
am all for this type of give and take. However, I believe you are a bit
mistaken in how "ferociously" the Japs and Chinese are adopting western
cultural traditions. In fact the rate of success of Indian, Chinese,
Japanese, Korean and other far eastern children in the western world is due
solely to their adherence to their own traditional family values and respect
for their elders. The average working class families in the UK could learn
something from some Asian and far eastern immigrants.

>
> >What about religious divisions?
> >The sectarian wars in Europe come to mind here. What about tribal and

> racial
> >divisions?


> Most of the time economics are the root cause. You don't see the US
> bombing the Saudis..... do you? Neither do you see documentaries about
> how prisoners are mistreated in Saudi Arabia nor there no big outcry
> about human rights in that kingdom.


Yes, you are perfectly right that most of the time economics are the root
cause of wars. Propaganda is naturally geared to economic interests. The
reasons given for going to war are always excuses rather than true reasons.

>
> >Europe is to this day very much a racist society despite or maybe
> >because of long, long wars between European antagonists that

> culminated in
> >WW1 and WW2 and which didn't really come to an end as WW2 was soon

> followed
> >by the Cold War which itself is not quite over yet.


> Well, the term racist has been thrown around so much, I really don't
> even know what it means anymore. Racist this racist that...blah blah
> blah. You have many different dynamics in European politics and saying
> they are racist would be trivializing it.


Racism is a manifestation of other fears again based mostly on economic
interests.

>
> Wars in Europe too were primarily caused due to economics. England and
> France fought bitterly over and over, but now they don't care for that,
> mostly because they have a pretty good living. You're much less likely
> to be a militant if you've got a lot to lose. If you got nothing to
> lose on the other hand..... you get my gist.


> Anyway, it's a complex issue.....but if you and some other Turks here
> think Europe is racist, why does your govt try so hard to get admitted
> to the EU? It seems masochistic to me.


The reason for the establishment of the common market were again economic in
nature plus the realisation of the sheer folly of going to wars for economic
reasons. The so called idealism of a united Europe is just plain common
sense which comes from the realisation that working together is far more
conducive to rising standards of living for all concerned as opposed to
going to war over markets. Turkey's reasons for accessing the EU are
naturally the same plus the desire to link Turkey's future to the future of
a united Europe. Racism is fundamentally the mind-set of a certain sections
of society fearful of their economic interests plus fear of the unknown,
fear of those seen as not being "one of us."





  #100 (permalink)   Report Post  
karapanomanolokopoulos
 
Posts: n/a
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That markrivers fool cracked yesterday. How long do you give Seanie?
Maybe we should get a when-will-seanie-crack pool going?



  #101 (permalink)   Report Post  
Panta Rhei
 
Posts: n/a
Default

karapanomanolokopoulos writes:

> That markrivers fool cracked yesterday. How long do you give Seanie?
> Maybe we should get a when-will-seanie-crack pool going?


Beanie cracked already some time ago. The amazing thing is he manages to
crack up even more every day. Wouldn't believe it, if I didn't see it here
in these groups with mine own eyes. LOL
  #102 (permalink)   Report Post  
Panta Rhei
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lady Chatterly writes:

> In article <1111155458.fe0035b4dd57abcd5efd16e2c5e056ef@teran ews>
> Panta Rhei > wrote:
>>
>>Beanie cracked already some time ago. The amazing thing is he manages to
>>crack up even more every day. Wouldn't believe it, if I didn't see it here
>>in these groups with mine own eyes. LOL

>
> Stop your shaking and trembling.


Stop your nonsense. Start making sense again, girl! ;-) 'bout time now!

BTW, real gorgeous X-face!
  #103 (permalink)   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You are getting too boring to bother to reply to.
--
choro-nik
********

"Splicer1X" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Now that's interesting. The Turkish would-be smartie boy "choro-fag"
> runs to the
> defense of the biggest idiot existing on usenet.Choro-fag is not so
> smart after all?
> Or is it your sexual aberration, that you never manage to hide for too
> long, that attracts you when shit like marktrivers in involved?
> How does it feel, to be stunned and delayed in development, being
> emotionally and sexually handicapped, unable to **** a human? That's
> what
> it's all about with you, you anal, subnormal talking piece of shit!
> choro-fag.
> You better get a second boy, retard. Obviously Seanie-boy is not enough
> for
> you to make you feel at ease with yourself and the world.
> choro-nik wrote:
>> What do you eat when you are at home? Obviously bangers and mash or
>> McDonalds and chips. I'd give the sack to your partner if I were you.

> She
>> obviously doesn't know how to cook.
>>
>> --
>> choro-nik
>> ********
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > when I went to Greece all I ate was gyros. You think they are good
>> > here . . . well you havent a good one then becuas they are

> absolutely
>> > amazing. We were in IOS and we went to this local hole in the

> whole 2x
>> > a day. We would eat them when we were not even hungry
>> >

>



  #104 (permalink)   Report Post  
Splicer1X
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You think you sound smart,cultured and educated choro-nik, that's
obvious. But you inveterately
sound disgusting. You can say what you want: you *always* sound
disgusting, regardless of what you talk about. It's the way you *are*.
You
can't hide your barbarian Turkic-mongol-muslim eat with your hands in a
tent heritage!!!
Get lost tent-maker, you bring nothing but filth to SCG, God the whole
place is inundated with
the nauseating odor of your presence

  #105 (permalink)   Report Post  
Panta Rhei
 
Posts: n/a
Default

choro-nik writes:

> You are getting too boring to bother to reply to.


Then shut up, you filth!


  #106 (permalink)   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I thought you liked "a piece of shit". You keep talking about it all the
time, you $5 hack. You must have learned it from Dorian. Now, pull up your
knickers and get lost.
--
choro-nik
********

"Panta Rhei" > wrote in message
news:1111188670.5e05a4cdce9d65b989fd98f829418f8a@t eranews...
> choro-nik writes:
>
>> You are getting too boring to bother to reply to.

>
> Then shut up, you filth!



  #107 (permalink)   Report Post  
Panta Rhei
 
Posts: n/a
Default

choro-nik writes:

> I thought you liked "a piece of shit". You keep talking about it all the
> time, you $5 hack. You must have learned it from Dorian. Now, pull up your
> knickers and get lost.


LOL You little Nazi Turks always want to be liked. What in the hell makes
you think I like you, you piece of shit? Your wrong self-assessment of
yourself as being some sort of "smarter" Turk?

That filthy trolling Turk got the cheek to tell someone to get lost! LOL
This choro-clown is as loony as Beanie Tinfoil! Both are Turks!!! Hahahaa..
  #108 (permalink)   Report Post  
Yavrukurt
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Silence GAYson !

Your tedious repetition only serves to expose your LAZINESS , your
IDIOCY , your STUPIDITY , and your sheer INEPTITUDE

Mwahahahahahahahahhar

  #109 (permalink)   Report Post  
amin dada
 
Posts: n/a
Default



"Yavrukurt" >
ups.com...
>
>
> Silence GAYson !
>
> Your tedious repetition only serves to expose your LAZINESS , your
> IDIOCY , your STUPIDITY , and your sheer INEPTITUDE
>
> Mwahahahahahahahahhar
>




tiurks r lying.tiurks r the bigest murderers in ioropean history.tiurks
almost kiled Pope.tiurks r smagling dope in ioropa.
das ist how a tiurk iz speakin.only bad language and savajery.tiurks r
barbarians.thats why tiurks r not in eu.tiurks r kilers.u r Al Qaeda
soldier.tiurks r islamistas y teroristas.no eu 4 u anemal tiurks.tiurks r
ioropa enemys.tiurks always kiling kiling kiling


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