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>But actually, over 90 percent of the language
>did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call "linguistic >engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to imagine. OK this is a direct quote from ataturk.com, "Ataturk.com is a non-profit organization, whose primary goals are, educate world about Ataturk, Turkish culture and heritage" "The transformation met with unparalleled success: In the 1920s, the written language consisted of more than 80 percent Arabic, Persian, and French words; by the early 1980s the ratio had declined to a mere 10 percent." Oh, I think I understand it perfectly ;-) As far as the yoghurt sauce goes, I don't doubt it could be Turk in origins, but the version we both know today is probably a later modification. At least I've not seen many other places where whey is strained out of yoghurt..... maybe Bulgaria? As for Dolmas: It's very possible the traditional version with meat and cabbage wrapping came from Asia. Various types of dumplings are common throughout Asia, and so is cabbage. The vegeterian version though (Yalancee?) had to be developed in the Meditteranean. Grape leaves simply don't exist in the steppes. >I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting for you >to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved to >present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- Well, there are many versions of where the Greek tribes descented from in to the Balkan Peninsula. Are you referring to the Caucasus mountains theory? BTW, The Chinese make a distinction beteween the Mongols in the north and the muslim Chinese in the west which are believed to be Turkic, closely related to Khazaks. In other words, Turks are a Mongolian type of people, but not all Mongols are Turks. Hence claiming that both that Moguls and the Yuan dynasty were Turkic, is an exaggeration at best! >We are all humans and we are all brothers. If >you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness I guess you can argue that we're all human beings etc, that is the popular view promoted today, and that ethnic divisions and promotion of nationalist theories can only lead to conflict and eventually bloodshed. I would agree to an extend that diversity in rare cases brings strength, but more often than not it can lead to conflict. It's happening right now in Europe, and the admission of Turkey in the EU is right in the middle of the debate....... but this is beyond the scope of this food thread. ;-) |
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choro-nik wrote: > "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > >I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in Turkish > > written > >>cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name directly > > from > >>Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound > > (represented by > >>the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that > > sound in > >>the Greek alphabet. > > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish language > > is a result of linguistic engineering. > > I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the Turkish > language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the Latin > alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words that had > crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which were not > immediately understood by the population at large. These words were replaced > by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is Muallim > (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of great > knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme was a > root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the highest > court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From Ogren > (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody who > teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student became Orgenci > which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root word > for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from Giy/mek > meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To Wear. So > you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing > sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a School > instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the language > did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call "linguistic > engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to imagine. > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards plain > English in contracts and other such documents, you will better understand > the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th century. It > certainly did not become a language that people could not understand but > rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written and spoken > word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root words and > how other words were developed from those foreign root words . > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Mongols do various yoghurt > > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen it > > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version is a > > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend it. > > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian, it's > > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central Asia. > > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is > > different. > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one sort or > another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are > extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not to my > taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had some > lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category. > > Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would have to be > written in English so those others following our conversation can pronounce > it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik. However, > don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India were > acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect and > introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were > assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your information > King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the everyday > language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the 30s and > my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they spoke in > Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they engaged > in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was actually a > large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King Farouk was > the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt due to his > education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the British at > the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the Egyptian > Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been assimilated into > the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course. > > During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in favor > or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner laid in his > honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were all > waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still and after a > while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was waiting for > him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So? I can't > start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly sent > somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run of the > mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel that I > should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his memoirs. And > he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would have made > quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever get > round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with life? > > Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main topic but > hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the Turkish > language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware of. > Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the father and > the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many Cypriots > of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the gambling dens > in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious > gentlemanly father's life style. > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has been in > the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not known for > their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were > introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty that set > up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I thought > this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject or even > read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept that the > so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now going to > claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers were > Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls who was > exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on home. These > rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with the > result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact Moslem > Indians. > > > > >>And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you > > Greekified > >>the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is > > something > >>stuffed? > > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in > > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's Turks > > make it, but where they got it from is another story. > > But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being Dol > meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something that is > stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is also > Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in leaves as > opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled by being > filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas. Actually Sarma > is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in leaves. > Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma is an > indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades where the > ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma (singular) > Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is reserved > for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally used. > Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate as it > opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which one > its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless neutral > gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously masculine > Man). > > And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that are > based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical facts, let > me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly borrowed > from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is a clear > distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO and TO in > Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this keeps you > happy. > > In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin to the > use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you catch you > say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel please? > But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT types of > Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types of > Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually far > tastier than the ordinary mackerel. > > > > > > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout the > > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a "tourkiko > > kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it from the > > Ethiopians > > I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know that > coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you that the > preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is quite > probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that Turkish > coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because Europeans > first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee is > nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing > different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee. > > > > > >>And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the > > heartland of > >>Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins of > > Greeks. > >>How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over. > > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they are > > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the originators of > > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient ones > > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks used to > > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to support > > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and Roman > > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean. > > I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting for you > to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved to > present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other words > more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we extended > further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at one > stage. > > > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original > > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised > > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists. > > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-) > > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), 10% > > Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic. > > I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to contest your > figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples, assimilated > them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing wrong > with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all such > matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all brothers. If > you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness. > > But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the peoples of > lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that you set > up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw, I > learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of conquered > lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be deprived of > their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks colonialists who > engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other words, > you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike the > European colonialists you assimilated the native population and eventually > you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the latter > day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves and > making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy only > works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days giving > everybody the chance to adjust. > > > > >>I leave you to mull this point over. > > ;-) > > Nice remark. > ;-) from me too. > > > |
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choro-nik wrote: > "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > >I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in Turkish > > written > >>cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name directly > > from > >>Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound > > (represented by > >>the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that > > sound in > >>the Greek alphabet. > > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish language > > is a result of linguistic engineering. > > I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the Turkish > language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the Latin > alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words that had > crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which were not > immediately understood by the population at large. These words were replaced > by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is Muallim > (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of great > knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme was a > root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the highest > court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From Ogren > (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody who > teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student became Orgenci > which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root word > for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from Giy/mek > meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To Wear. So > you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing > sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a School > instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the language > did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call "linguistic > engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to imagine. > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards plain > English in contracts and other such documents, you will better understand > the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th century. It > certainly did not become a language that people could not understand but > rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written and spoken > word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root words and > how other words were developed from those foreign root words . > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Mongols do various yoghurt > > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen it > > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version is a > > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend it. > > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian, it's > > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central Asia. > > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is > > different. > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one sort or > another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are > extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not to my > taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had some > lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category. > > Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would have to be > written in English so those others following our conversation can pronounce > it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik. However, > don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India were > acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect and > introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were > assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your information > King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the everyday > language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the 30s and > my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they spoke in > Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they engaged > in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was actually a > large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King Farouk was > the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt due to his > education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the British at > the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the Egyptian > Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been assimilated into > the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course. > > During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in favor > or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner laid in his > honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were all > waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still and after a > while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was waiting for > him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So? I can't > start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly sent > somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run of the > mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel that I > should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his memoirs. And > he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would have made > quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever get > round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with life? > > Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main topic but > hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the Turkish > language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware of. > Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the father and > the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many Cypriots > of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the gambling dens > in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious > gentlemanly father's life style. > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed this crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-third). Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has been in > the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not known for > their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were > introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty that set > up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I thought > this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject or even > read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept that the > so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now going to > claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers were > Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls who was > exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on home. These > rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with the > result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact Moslem > Indians. > > > > >>And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you > > Greekified > >>the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is > > something > >>stuffed? > > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in > > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's Turks > > make it, but where they got it from is another story. > > But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being Dol > meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something that is > stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is also > Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in leaves as > opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled by being > filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas. Actually Sarma > is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in leaves. > Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma is an > indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades where the > ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma (singular) > Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is reserved > for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally used. > Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate as it > opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which one > its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless neutral > gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously masculine > Man). > > And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that are > based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical facts, let > me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly borrowed > from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is a clear > distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO and TO in > Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this keeps you > happy. > > In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin to the > use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you catch you > say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel please? > But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT types of > Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types of > Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually far > tastier than the ordinary mackerel. > > > > > > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout the > > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a "tourkiko > > kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it from the > > Ethiopians > > I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know that > coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you that the > preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is quite > probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that Turkish > coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because Europeans > first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee is > nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing > different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee. > > > > > >>And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the > > heartland of > >>Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins of > > Greeks. > >>How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over. > > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they are > > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the originators of > > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient ones > > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks used to > > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to support > > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and Roman > > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean. > > I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting for you > to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved to > present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other words > more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we extended > further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at one > stage. > > > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original > > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised > > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists. > > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-) > > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), 10% > > Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic. > > I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to contest your > figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples, assimilated > them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing wrong > with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all such > matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all brothers. If > you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness. > > But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the peoples of > lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that you set > up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw, I > learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of conquered > lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be deprived of > their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks colonialists who > engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other words, > you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike the > European colonialists you assimilated the native population and eventually > you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the latter > day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves and > making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy only > works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days giving > everybody the chance to adjust. > > > > >>I leave you to mull this point over. > > ;-) > > Nice remark. > ;-) from me too. > > > |
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markrivers wrote:
> > choro-nik wrote: > > "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in > > message > > oups.com... > > > > I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in > Turkish > > > written > > > > cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name > directly > > > from > > > > Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound > > > (represented by > > > > the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have > > > > that > > > sound in > > > > the Greek alphabet. > > > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish > language > > > is a result of linguistic engineering. > > > > I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the > Turkish > > language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the > Latin > > alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words > that had > > crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which > were not > > immediately understood by the population at large. These words were > replaced > > by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is > Muallim > > (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of > great > > knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme > was a > > root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the > highest > > court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From > Ogren > > (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody > > who teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student > > became > Orgenci > > which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root > word > > for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from > Giy/mek > > meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To > Wear. So > > you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing > > sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a > School > > instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the > language > > did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call > "linguistic > > engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to > imagine. > > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed > this > crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-half). > > > Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the > people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region > to > > hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way > dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the > means of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an > organization > > founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means > of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal > investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of > media, > > to be increased one-half). > > > Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the > Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-third). > > > Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or > to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up > to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if > committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish > national > > identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to > 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, > military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a > Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > > > Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards > plain > > English in contracts and other such documents, you will better > understand > > the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th > > century. > It > > certainly did not become a language that people could not understand > but > > rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written > > and > spoken > > word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root > words and > > how other words were developed from those foreign root words . > > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed > this > crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-half). > > > Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the > people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region > to > > hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way > dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the > means of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an > organization > > founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means > of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal > investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of > media, > > to be increased one-half). > > > Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the > Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-third). > > > Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or > to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up > to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if > committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish > national > > identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to > 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, > military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a > Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > > > Mongols do various yoghurt > > > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen > it > > > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version > is a > > > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend > it. > > > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian, > it's > > > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central > Asia. > > > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is > > > different. > > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed > this > crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-half). > > > Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the > people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region > to > > hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way > dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the > means of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an > organization > > founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means > of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal > investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of > media, > > to be increased one-half). > > > Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the > Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-third). > > > Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or > to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up > to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if > committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish > national > > identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to > 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, > military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a > Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > > > Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one > sort or > > another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are > > extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not > to my > > taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had > some > > lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category. > > > > Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would > > have > to be > > written in English so those others following our conversation can > pronounce > > it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik. > However, > > don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India > were > > acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed > this > crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-half). > > > Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the > people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region > to > > hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way > dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the > means of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an > organization > > founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means > of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal > investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of > media, > > to be increased one-half). > > > Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the > Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-third). > > > Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or > to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up > to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if > committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish > national > > identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to > 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, > military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a > Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect > and > > introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were > > assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your > information > > King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the > everyday > > language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the > 30s and > > my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they > spoke in > > Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they > engaged > > in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was > actually a > > large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King > > Farouk > was > > the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt > > due > to his > > education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the > British at > > the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the > Egyptian > > Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been > assimilated into > > the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course. > > > > During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in > favor > > or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner > > laid > in his > > honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were > > all waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still > > and > after a > > while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was > waiting for > > him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So? > > I > can't > > start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly > sent > > somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run > of the > > mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel > that I > > should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his > memoirs. And > > he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would > > have > made > > quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever > get > > round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with > life? > > > > Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main > > topic > but > > hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the > Turkish > > language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware > of. > > Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the > father and > > the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many > Cypriots > > of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the > > gambling > dens > > in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious > > gentlemanly father's life style. > > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed > this > crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-half). > > > Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the > people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region > to > > hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way > dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the > means of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an > organization > > founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means > of media, to be increased one-half). > > > Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal > investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of > media, > > to be increased one-half). > > > Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the > Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be > increased one-third). > > > Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or > to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up > to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if > committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish > national > > identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to > 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased > one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs, > military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a > Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third). > > > > > Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has > been in > > the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not > > known > for > > their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were > > introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty > that set > > up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I > thought > > this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject > > or > even > > read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept > that the > > so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now > going to > > claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers > were > > Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls > > who > was > > exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on > > home. > These > > rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with > the > > result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact > Moslem > > Indians. > > > > > > > > > And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you > > > Greekified > > > > the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is > > > something > > > > stuffed? > > > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in > > > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's > Turks > > > make it, but where they got it from is another story. > > > > But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being > Dol > > meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something > that is > > stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is > also > > Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in > leaves as > > opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled > by being > > filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas. > Actually Sarma > > is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in > leaves. > > Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma > > is > an > > indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades > where the > > ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma > (singular) > > Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is > reserved > > for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally > used. > > Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate > as it > > opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which > one > > its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless > neutral > > gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously > masculine > > Man). > > > > And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that > are > > based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical > facts, let > > me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly > borrowed > > from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is > > a > clear > > distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO > > and > TO in > > Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this > keeps you > > happy. > > > > In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin > > to > the > > use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you > catch you > > say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel > please? > > But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT > > types > of > > Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types > of > > Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually > > far tastier than the ordinary mackerel. > > > > > > > > > > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout > the > > > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a > > > "tourkiko kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it > > > from the Ethiopians > > > > I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know > that > > coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you > that the > > preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is > quite > > probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that > Turkish > > coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because > Europeans > > first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee > is > > nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing > > different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee. > > > > > > > > > > > And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the > > > heartland of > > > > Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic > > > > origins > of > > > Greeks. > > > > How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over. > > > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they > are > > > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the > originators of > > > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient > ones > > > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks > > > used > to > > > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to > support > > > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and > Roman > > > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean. > > > > I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting > for you > > to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved > to > > present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other > words > > more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we > extended > > further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at > one > > stage. > > > > > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original > > > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised > > > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists. > > > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-) > > > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), > > > 10% Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic. > > > > I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to > contest your > > figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples, > assimilated > > them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing > wrong > > with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all > such > > matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all > brothers. If > > you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness. > > > > But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the > peoples of > > lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that > you set > > up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw, > I > > learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of > conquered > > lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be > deprived of > > their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks > colonialists who > > engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other > words, > > you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike > the > > European colonialists you assimilated the native population and > eventually > > you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the > latter > > day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves > and > > making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy > only > > works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days > giving > > everybody the chance to adjust. > > > > > > > > > I leave you to mull this point over. > > > ;-) > > > > Nice remark. > > ;-) from me too. > > > > > How many mark rivers are there? -- Sean O'Kilfoyle is just another stupid Turk!!!. Mark Rivers is just as stupid, and AttilaAtaman is their common male lover!!!!!!!!!! |
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>You are certainly not the aboriginal peoples of what is now Greece.
You mean a pelasgian? The Messenians next door maybe, but not me ........that would make me a helot. I'm a Lacedemonian, so there! I've told you before that Turks were not around my hood. >Come, I'll offer you a Turkish coffee in a gesture of friendship. Sorry, I >tried to get some Greek coffee but it doesn't exist apparently. But just >think of it as Greek coffee and be happy. I'm no friend of coffee, but if you want to offer friendship, I'd appreciate it if you increased Seanie's and markrivers medication. Their manic depression is becoming annoying :-) >And while you wait while I prepare the Turkish coffee, would you like some >Turkish lokum with roast nuts in them? If you are not happy with Turkish >Lokum just add the letter "i" at the end of it and presto it becomes Greek Lokumi. I find the two versions quite a bit different frankly, and I can't say I like either one. Maybe the one from the island Syros is OK >And BTW, what sort of nuts would you like me to roast and add to the lokum/i? > I've got a very sharp knife as good as any surgeons use. >How about your very own nuts? That will truly make the lokum/i truly Greek. Don't know what kind of stuff you're into, but stay away from my nuts unless you're female, and no transexual one...... otherwise you're barking up the wrong tree! |
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"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
ups.com... > >But actually, over 90 percent of the language >>did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call > "linguistic >>engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to > imagine. > OK this is a direct quote from ataturk.com, "Ataturk.com is a > non-profit organization, whose primary goals are, educate world about > Ataturk, Turkish culture and heritage" > "The transformation met with unparalleled success: In the 1920s, the > written language consisted of more than 80 percent Arabic, Persian, and > French words; by the early 1980s the ratio had declined to a mere 10 > percent." I have no idea of this site but their claim is a gross over exaggeration. Personally I think that my personal estimate of 10 percent is much nearer the mark. Also note that they are talking about the written language (i.e. the old Ottoman Court language) when it was common for officials to use as many high-flying and not commonly understood words and phrases borrowed from Persian or Arabic much as the legalese in English language documents that only lawyers could understand in English. Luckily that is fast disappearing from the English language also with government encouragement for the use of plain English. That does not mean that the English language has changed only that the legalese small print has changed. The normal everyday Turkish has not changed all that much apart from words and terms developed from common Turkish roots as I tried to explain to you the other day. But tell me, didn't your teachers ever teach you not to believe everything you ever see in print? May I suggest that you apply the same logic to web pages. And now here is an anecdote. One day a neighbor knocked on Nasreddin Hodja's door and asked whether he could borrow his donkey for the afternoon. Hodja said, "Sorry but so-and-so has borrowed my donkey for the day". And just then Hodja's donkey started braying. The neighbor looked quizzically at Hodja as if to say, "You are lying to me, aren't you?" whereupon the Hodja put his hand on his long white beard and said to the neighbor: "But neighbor, don't you trust the word of a wise old sage and you trust the braying of a donkey." OK, so if you saw the claim that 80 percent of Turkish is no more and that it has been wiped off the Turkish language since 1920, and you believe this, then who am I to try and convince you that this is a grossly exaggerated claim? The earth is flat, after all, isn't it and the sun rotates around the earth? > > Oh, I think I understand it perfectly ;-) > > As far as the yoghurt sauce goes, I don't doubt it could be Turk in > origins, but the version we both know today is probably a later > modification. At least I've not seen many other places where whey is > strained out of yoghurt..... maybe Bulgaria? > > As for Dolmas: It's very possible the traditional version with meat and > cabbage wrapping came from Asia. Various types of dumplings are common > throughout Asia, and so is cabbage. The vegeterian version though > (Yalancee?) had to be developed in the Meditteranean. Grape leaves > simply don't exist in the steppes. Yalanci (pronounced Yalandji) Dolma is as you say the vegetarian version of Dolma. But what makes you think that vineleaves are the only leaves that can be used to wrap Dolma? The Turkey where Yalanci Dolma is very popular they use other types of leaves to wrap Dolmas. In fact my favorite wrapped Dolma are not the ones wrapped in vineleaves though vineleaf wrapped dolmas have become more or less the only version known in Europe. Incidentally, Yalan in Turkish means a lie, an untruth. Yalanci means a liar, a cheat. Hence, Yalanci Dolma where you are cheated of the minced lamb content of the dish. OK you say that I rely too much on the origin of words used in naming these dishes. But of course I am. How else would all these Turkish words come to be used in naming the variants of these dishes? It would be like arguing that the English terminology used in computing does not point out to countries where computing originated. Would you seek any other origin to such computing terms as e-mail, web pages, copy and paste, URL etc other than an English speaking country? > >>I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting > for you >>to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved > to >>present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- > Well, there are many versions of where the Greek tribes descented from > in to the Balkan Peninsula. Are you referring to the Caucasus mountains > theory? > BTW, The Chinese make a distinction beteween the Mongols in the north > and the muslim Chinese in the west which are believed to be Turkic, > closely related to Khazaks. In other words, Turks are a Mongolian type > of people, but not all Mongols are Turks. Hence claiming that both that > Moguls and the Yuan dynasty were Turkic, is an exaggeration at best! > >>We are all humans and we are all brothers. If >>you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness > I guess you can argue that we're all human beings etc, that is the > popular view promoted today, and that ethnic divisions and promotion of > nationalist theories can only lead to conflict and eventually > bloodshed. I would agree to an extend that diversity in rare cases > brings strength, but more often than not it can lead to conflict. It's > happening right now in Europe, and the admission of Turkey in the EU is > right in the middle of the debate....... but this is beyond the scope > of this food thread. ;-) True, we are all humans and we are all brothers. Also true that ethnic divisions can eventually lead to conflicts. That's why we have to concentrate on what unites us rather than what divides us. It is not only ethnic divisions that can lead to conflicts. What about religious divisions? The sectarian wars in Europe come to mind here. What about tribal and racial divisions? Europe is to this day very much a racist society despite or maybe because of long, long wars between European antagonists that culminated in WW1 and WW2 and which didn't really come to an end as WW2 was soon followed by the Cold War which itself is not quite over yet. And what about divisions as to which football team we support? I hope with this last question I'll have given you food for thought! |
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Th einai magala, re? Ta arxhdia sou, h o kephalos sou, you bighead?
Ksereis na milas, re kserokefalo? -- choro-nik ******** "MisTerGyRo" > wrote in message oups.com... > yES ThEy ArE gREaT! > |
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Well, karapanamanolokopoulos, all I can say is that at least you have got a
sense of humor. But tell me, was it you Greeks who gave the idea to the Americans to rename French Fries like you changed Turkish Doner into Greek Gyros? :-) <wink, wink> -- choro-nik ******** "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message ups.com... > >You are certainly not the aboriginal peoples of what is now Greece. > You mean a pelasgian? The Messenians next door maybe, but not me > .......that would make me a helot. I'm a Lacedemonian, so there! I've > told you before that Turks were not around my hood. > >>Come, I'll offer you a Turkish coffee in a gesture of friendship. > Sorry, I >>tried to get some Greek coffee but it doesn't exist apparently. But > just >>think of it as Greek coffee and be happy. > I'm no friend of coffee, but if you want to offer friendship, I'd > appreciate it if you increased Seanie's and markrivers medication. > Their manic depression is becoming annoying :-) > >>And while you wait while I prepare the Turkish coffee, would you like > some >>Turkish lokum with roast nuts in them? If you are not happy with > Turkish >>Lokum just add the letter "i" at the end of it and presto it becomes > Greek Lokumi. > I find the two versions quite a bit different frankly, and I can't say > I like either one. Maybe the one from the island Syros is OK > >>And BTW, what sort of nuts would you like me to roast and add to the > lokum/i? >> I've got a very sharp knife as good as any surgeons use. >>How about your very own nuts? That will truly make the lokum/i truly > Greek. > Don't know what kind of stuff you're into, but stay away from my nuts > unless you're female, and no transexual one...... otherwise you're > barking up the wrong tree! > |
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>OK, so if you saw the claim that 80 percent of Turkish is no more and
that >it has been wiped off the Turkish language since 1920, and you believe this, >then who am I to try and convince you that this is a grossly exaggerated >claim? >The earth is flat, after all, isn't it and the sun rotates around the earth? Are you saying that ataturk.com is lying? As far as I can tell they are Turks >OK you say that I rely too much on the origin of words used in naming these >dishes. But of course I am. How else would all these Turkish words come to >be used in naming the variants of these dishes? Yes, but there are two problems with this: First, Greeks spoke some Turkish during the occupation to get around. It is entirely possible these "Turkish" names are corrupted Greek words, like Ismir, Ispanak, Instanbul etc. If these dishes were Turkish in their present form, you'd find them everywhere Turanics live, and that's not the case. >True, we are all humans and we are all brothers. Also true that ethnic >divisions can eventually lead to conflicts. That's why we have to >concentrate on what unites us rather than what divides us. It is not only >ethnic divisions that can lead to conflicts. That sounds fine in a hippie kinda way until Muslim girls decide they want to wear a headscarf in a French school..... then you'll have conflict and it's only the beginning. Look, the world is full of cultural conflicts. It's fortunate that it's not always armed conflict, but certain cultures prevail and others disappear. You can find hardly anything of the Japanese culture remaining in Japan today. The Chinese are even more ferocious in adopting western ways. The west is really pushing hard its way of life to the Middle East today, and the response is mixed. >What about religious divisions? >The sectarian wars in Europe come to mind here. What about tribal and racial >divisions? Most of the time economics are the root cause. You don't see the US bombing the Saudis..... do you? Neither do you see documentaries about how prisoners are mistreated in Saudi Arabia nor there no big outcry about human rights in that kingdom >Europe is to this day very much a racist society despite or maybe >because of long, long wars between European antagonists that culminated in >WW1 and WW2 and which didn't really come to an end as WW2 was soon followed >by the Cold War which itself is not quite over yet. Well, the term racist has been thrown around so much, I really don't even know what it means anymore. Racist this racist that...blah blah blah. You have many different dynamics in European politics and saying they are racist would be trivializing it. Wars in Europe too were primarily caused due to economics. England and France fought bitterly over and over, but now they don't care for that, mostly because they have a pretty good living. You're much less likely to be a militant if you've got a lot to lose. If you got nothing to lose on the other hand..... you get my gist. Anyway, it's a complex issue.....but if you and some other Turks here think Europe is racist, why does your govt try so hard to get admitted to the EU? It seems masochistic to me |
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Now that's interesting. The Turkish would-be smartie boy "choro-fag"
runs to the defense of the biggest idiot existing on usenet.Choro-fag is not so smart after all? Or is it your sexual aberration, that you never manage to hide for too long, that attracts you when shit like marktrivers in involved? How does it feel, to be stunned and delayed in development, being emotionally and sexually handicapped, unable to **** a human? That's what it's all about with you, you anal, subnormal talking piece of shit! choro-fag. You better get a second boy, retard. Obviously Seanie-boy is not enough for you to make you feel at ease with yourself and the world. choro-nik wrote: > What do you eat when you are at home? Obviously bangers and mash or > McDonalds and chips. I'd give the sack to your partner if I were you. She > obviously doesn't know how to cook. > > -- > choro-nik > ******** > > wrote in message > oups.com... > > when I went to Greece all I ate was gyros. You think they are good > > here . . . well you havent a good one then becuas they are absolutely > > amazing. We were in IOS and we went to this local hole in the whole 2x > > a day. We would eat them when we were not even hungry > > |
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SO, THOSE *** RAPE KURDISH STYLE STORIES YOU USED TO LOVE TO TELL ARE TOO PAINFUL FOR YOU NOW OR WHAT ? *ROTFFLMFAOAY* |
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HOW ABOUT BLACK TURKOGRIK Mr. KARAgriklingopoulosodopoulosothoth ADMITS THAT griks ARE A *******ISED MISH MASH OF SLAV ALBANIAN TURK AND BALKAN GYPO then ? |
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Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to your
lover Yavrukurt. Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way! |
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karapanomanolokopoulos wrote: > Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to your > lover Yavrukurt. > Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way! Quit crossposting this crap to rmgd. Noone cares about you ass ****ing greeks, or you hand cutting turks. Go away and don't come back. All of your food sux. |
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Seanie O'Kilfoyle writes:
> SO, THOSE *** RAPE KURDISH STYLE STORIES YOU USED TO LOVE TO TELL ARE > TOO PAINFUL FOR YOU NOW OR WHAT ? > > *ROTFFLMFAOAY* ? Delirious, as usual, Beanie Tinfoil? LOL Don't you think it's time for you to put yourself into a mental hospital by now? LMAO! Beanie Tinfoil!!! Hahah... |
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? "karapanomanolokopoulos" > ?????? ??? ??????
oups.com... > Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to your > lover Yavrukurt. > Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way! Exactly ! And there is *ONE* more screen name you don't know ! -- E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane! F.d.A Coins, travels and mo http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html |
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karapanomanolokopoulos writes:
> Seanie, how is the multiple personality disorder going? Say hi to your > lover Yavrukurt. > Nice job you did coming out of the closet by the way! LOL He's getting worse by the day. Amazing to watch! |
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"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
oups.com... > >OK, so if you saw the claim that 80 percent of Turkish is no more and > that > >it has been wiped off the Turkish language since 1920, and you believe > this, > >then who am I to try and convince you that this is a grossly > exaggerated > >claim? > >The earth is flat, after all, isn't it and the sun rotates around the > earth? > Are you saying that ataturk.com is lying? As far as I can tell they are > Turks. I don't think their figures really tally with reality. As I said before, do not take anything either printed or keyed in as gospel truth. Otherwise, we must believe that the earth is hundreds of million years old while at the same time it is only 6,000 years old. And we know that both assumptions cannot be true yet both figures are in print as well as appearing on web pages. > > >OK you say that I rely too much on the origin of words used in naming > these > >dishes. But of course I am. How else would all these Turkish words > come to > >be used in naming the variants of these dishes? > Yes, but there are two problems with this: > First, Greeks spoke some Turkish during the occupation to get around. > It is entirely possible these "Turkish" names are corrupted Greek > words, like Ismir, Ispanak, Instanbul etc. > If these dishes were Turkish in their present form, you'd find them > everywhere Turanics live, and that's not the case. But while I agree with you re Smyrna/Izmir, Eis-thn-Poli/Istanbul and possibly re Ispanak, you will find that the dishes we were talking about do exist in other Turkic regions. But your reasoning that basic Turkish root words could be corrupted are completely groundless. > > >True, we are all humans and we are all brothers. Also true that ethnic > > >divisions can eventually lead to conflicts. That's why we have to > >concentrate on what unites us rather than what divides us. It is not > only > >ethnic divisions that can lead to conflicts. > That sounds fine in a hippie kinda way until Muslim girls decide they > want to wear a headscarf in a French school..... then you'll have > conflict and it's only the beginning. > Look, the world is full of cultural conflicts. It's fortunate that it's > not always armed conflict, but certain cultures prevail and others > disappear. You can find hardly anything of the Japanese culture > remaining in Japan today. The Chinese are even more ferocious in > adopting western ways. The west is really pushing hard its way of life > to the Middle East today, and the response is mixed. Western customs and traditions are certainly becoming the accepted norm all over the world. I see nothing wrong with that so long as what is best in Western customs are adopted. What you are forgetting though is that there is also growing appreciation of far eastern ideologies in the west. What eventually happens is that you tend to get a fusion of the two traditions. I am all for this type of give and take. However, I believe you are a bit mistaken in how "ferociously" the Japs and Chinese are adopting western cultural traditions. In fact the rate of success of Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and other far eastern children in the western world is due solely to their adherence to their own traditional family values and respect for their elders. The average working class families in the UK could learn something from some Asian and far eastern immigrants. > > >What about religious divisions? > >The sectarian wars in Europe come to mind here. What about tribal and > racial > >divisions? > Most of the time economics are the root cause. You don't see the US > bombing the Saudis..... do you? Neither do you see documentaries about > how prisoners are mistreated in Saudi Arabia nor there no big outcry > about human rights in that kingdom. Yes, you are perfectly right that most of the time economics are the root cause of wars. Propaganda is naturally geared to economic interests. The reasons given for going to war are always excuses rather than true reasons. > > >Europe is to this day very much a racist society despite or maybe > >because of long, long wars between European antagonists that > culminated in > >WW1 and WW2 and which didn't really come to an end as WW2 was soon > followed > >by the Cold War which itself is not quite over yet. > Well, the term racist has been thrown around so much, I really don't > even know what it means anymore. Racist this racist that...blah blah > blah. You have many different dynamics in European politics and saying > they are racist would be trivializing it. Racism is a manifestation of other fears again based mostly on economic interests. > > Wars in Europe too were primarily caused due to economics. England and > France fought bitterly over and over, but now they don't care for that, > mostly because they have a pretty good living. You're much less likely > to be a militant if you've got a lot to lose. If you got nothing to > lose on the other hand..... you get my gist. > Anyway, it's a complex issue.....but if you and some other Turks here > think Europe is racist, why does your govt try so hard to get admitted > to the EU? It seems masochistic to me. The reason for the establishment of the common market were again economic in nature plus the realisation of the sheer folly of going to wars for economic reasons. The so called idealism of a united Europe is just plain common sense which comes from the realisation that working together is far more conducive to rising standards of living for all concerned as opposed to going to war over markets. Turkey's reasons for accessing the EU are naturally the same plus the desire to link Turkey's future to the future of a united Europe. Racism is fundamentally the mind-set of a certain sections of society fearful of their economic interests plus fear of the unknown, fear of those seen as not being "one of us." |
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That markrivers fool cracked yesterday. How long do you give Seanie?
Maybe we should get a when-will-seanie-crack pool going? |
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karapanomanolokopoulos writes:
> That markrivers fool cracked yesterday. How long do you give Seanie? > Maybe we should get a when-will-seanie-crack pool going? Beanie cracked already some time ago. The amazing thing is he manages to crack up even more every day. Wouldn't believe it, if I didn't see it here in these groups with mine own eyes. LOL |
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Lady Chatterly writes:
> In article <1111155458.fe0035b4dd57abcd5efd16e2c5e056ef@teran ews> > Panta Rhei > wrote: >> >>Beanie cracked already some time ago. The amazing thing is he manages to >>crack up even more every day. Wouldn't believe it, if I didn't see it here >>in these groups with mine own eyes. LOL > > Stop your shaking and trembling. Stop your nonsense. Start making sense again, girl! ;-) 'bout time now! BTW, real gorgeous X-face! |
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You are getting too boring to bother to reply to.
-- choro-nik ******** "Splicer1X" > wrote in message ups.com... > Now that's interesting. The Turkish would-be smartie boy "choro-fag" > runs to the > defense of the biggest idiot existing on usenet.Choro-fag is not so > smart after all? > Or is it your sexual aberration, that you never manage to hide for too > long, that attracts you when shit like marktrivers in involved? > How does it feel, to be stunned and delayed in development, being > emotionally and sexually handicapped, unable to **** a human? That's > what > it's all about with you, you anal, subnormal talking piece of shit! > choro-fag. > You better get a second boy, retard. Obviously Seanie-boy is not enough > for > you to make you feel at ease with yourself and the world. > choro-nik wrote: >> What do you eat when you are at home? Obviously bangers and mash or >> McDonalds and chips. I'd give the sack to your partner if I were you. > She >> obviously doesn't know how to cook. >> >> -- >> choro-nik >> ******** >> > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > when I went to Greece all I ate was gyros. You think they are good >> > here . . . well you havent a good one then becuas they are > absolutely >> > amazing. We were in IOS and we went to this local hole in the > whole 2x >> > a day. We would eat them when we were not even hungry >> > > |
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You think you sound smart,cultured and educated choro-nik, that's
obvious. But you inveterately sound disgusting. You can say what you want: you *always* sound disgusting, regardless of what you talk about. It's the way you *are*. You can't hide your barbarian Turkic-mongol-muslim eat with your hands in a tent heritage!!! Get lost tent-maker, you bring nothing but filth to SCG, God the whole place is inundated with the nauseating odor of your presence |
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choro-nik writes:
> You are getting too boring to bother to reply to. Then shut up, you filth! |
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I thought you liked "a piece of shit". You keep talking about it all the
time, you $5 hack. You must have learned it from Dorian. Now, pull up your knickers and get lost. -- choro-nik ******** "Panta Rhei" > wrote in message news:1111188670.5e05a4cdce9d65b989fd98f829418f8a@t eranews... > choro-nik writes: > >> You are getting too boring to bother to reply to. > > Then shut up, you filth! |
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choro-nik writes:
> I thought you liked "a piece of shit". You keep talking about it all the > time, you $5 hack. You must have learned it from Dorian. Now, pull up your > knickers and get lost. LOL You little Nazi Turks always want to be liked. What in the hell makes you think I like you, you piece of shit? Your wrong self-assessment of yourself as being some sort of "smarter" Turk? That filthy trolling Turk got the cheek to tell someone to get lost! LOL This choro-clown is as loony as Beanie Tinfoil! Both are Turks!!! Hahahaa.. |
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Silence GAYson ! Your tedious repetition only serves to expose your LAZINESS , your IDIOCY , your STUPIDITY , and your sheer INEPTITUDE Mwahahahahahahahahhar |
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"Yavrukurt" > ups.com... > > > Silence GAYson ! > > Your tedious repetition only serves to expose your LAZINESS , your > IDIOCY , your STUPIDITY , and your sheer INEPTITUDE > > Mwahahahahahahahahhar > tiurks r lying.tiurks r the bigest murderers in ioropean history.tiurks almost kiled Pope.tiurks r smagling dope in ioropa. das ist how a tiurk iz speakin.only bad language and savajery.tiurks r barbarians.thats why tiurks r not in eu.tiurks r kilers.u r Al Qaeda soldier.tiurks r islamistas y teroristas.no eu 4 u anemal tiurks.tiurks r ioropa enemys.tiurks always kiling kiling kiling |
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