On 2015-06-28 10:15 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2015-06-28, Dave Smith > wrote:
>
>> It's a shame that so many brands once considered to be reliable have
>> dropped their standards. I had bought a number of Maytag appliances
>> based on previous high ratings. I was seriously disappointed in them.
>
> They're all junk, now. It's called planned obsolescence. We were
> playing with it, but the Japanese showed us how to perfect it.


They did? I remember when "made in Japan" was synonymous" to "crap",
cheaply made trinkets usually made is thin, low quality stamped metal
assembled with tabs bent through slots. When Japanese cars first hit
the North American market they were the cheapest models they had to
offer. People were moderately impressed, knowing they had paid rock
bottom prices but got something more reliable and longer lasting than
they had expected. Then the Japanese raised the bar, offering higher
quality cars with luxury accessories.

I have had vehicles from most of the NA auto companies... except
Dodge/Chrysler, but had lots of experience with them in the fleet at
work. I got shafted by all of them. Now I drive buy Japanese cars. I
currently have a Honda and a Toyota. I have also had Mazdas. I might
have bought another Mazda but Ford bought a big share of the company and
I was worried that they would have dropped the Mazda products to the
Ford level.

Cameras, stereos and other electronics.... high quality and reasonable
prices. They tend to last. Of course, with the rapid advances in
technology many of the products become obsolete, but that is only in
comparison to the newer products, unlike the planned obsolescence of NA
cars and appliances which are made with cheap material so they break
down after a few years and it is cheaper to replace than to repair.

The Japanese forced NA auto makers to improve their products and make
them last longer.

FWIW.... one of the guys in my kayak club has a mini van. He was telling
me how much he liked it and how well it has lasted. It is a 1998 model
and has over 400,000. The body looks great and it runs beautifully. I
was amazed because, though I had seen it many times, been in it, loaded
boats on top of it, something told me it was a Dodge. It turned out to
be a Toyota.



>
> Even a simple garden hoe is now junk. Went to my local True Value and
> all their garden hoes used only two itty-bitty spot welds to hold the
> blade to the right-angle arm. Went next door to the Tractor Supply
> and their garden hoes had a full arc weld bead. Granted, it was a
> crappy Chinese weld, but it hadda be better than the wimpy Chinese
> spot welds. I hope.
>

Chinese???? I know there are jokes about them, but they are different
from the Japanese.

On 6/28/2015 8:47 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> Chinese???? I know there are jokes about them, but they are different
> from the Japanese.
>

Uh...what?

On 28/06/2015 8:47 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-06-28 10:15 AM, notbob wrote:
>> On 2015-06-28, Dave Smith > wrote:
>>
>>> It's a shame that so many brands once considered to be reliable have
>>> dropped their standards. I had bought a number of Maytag appliances
>>> based on previous high ratings. I was seriously disappointed in them.
>>
>> They're all junk, now. It's called planned obsolescence. We were
>> playing with it, but the Japanese showed us how to perfect it.
>
>
> They did? I remember when "made in Japan" was synonymous" to "crap",
> cheaply made trinkets usually made is thin, low quality stamped metal
> assembled with tabs bent through slots. When Japanese cars first hit
> the North American market they were the cheapest models they had to
> offer. People were moderately impressed, knowing they had paid rock
> bottom prices but got something more reliable and longer lasting than
> they had expected. Then the Japanese raised the bar, offering higher
> quality cars with luxury accessories.
>
> I have had vehicles from most of the NA auto companies... except
> Dodge/Chrysler, but had lots of experience with them in the fleet at
> work. I got shafted by all of them. Now I drive buy Japanese cars. I
> currently have a Honda and a Toyota. I have also had Mazdas. I might
> have bought another Mazda but Ford bought a big share of the company and
> I was worried that they would have dropped the Mazda products to the
> Ford level.
>
That link has now been cut!
It's OK to buy Mazdas.
Graham


--

On 6/28/2015 11:13 AM, graham wrote:
> On 28/06/2015 8:47 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2015-06-28 10:15 AM, notbob wrote:
>>> On 2015-06-28, Dave Smith > wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's a shame that so many brands once considered to be reliable have
>>>> dropped their standards. I had bought a number of Maytag appliances
>>>> based on previous high ratings. I was seriously disappointed in them.
>>>
>>> They're all junk, now. It's called planned obsolescence. We were
>>> playing with it, but the Japanese showed us how to perfect it.
>>
>>
>> They did? I remember when "made in Japan" was synonymous" to "crap",
>> cheaply made trinkets usually made is thin, low quality stamped metal
>> assembled with tabs bent through slots. When Japanese cars first hit
>> the North American market they were the cheapest models they had to
>> offer. People were moderately impressed, knowing they had paid rock
>> bottom prices but got something more reliable and longer lasting than
>> they had expected. Then the Japanese raised the bar, offering higher
>> quality cars with luxury accessories.
>>
>> I have had vehicles from most of the NA auto companies... except
>> Dodge/Chrysler, but had lots of experience with them in the fleet at
>> work. I got shafted by all of them. Now I drive buy Japanese cars. I
>> currently have a Honda and a Toyota. I have also had Mazdas. I might
>> have bought another Mazda but Ford bought a big share of the company and
>> I was worried that they would have dropped the Mazda products to the
>> Ford level.
>>
> That link has now been cut!

Now as in a LONG time ago.

> It's OK to buy Mazdas.
> Graham

It's more sensible to buy a Ford.

Always will be too.

On 2015-06-28 1:13 PM, graham wrote:

>> I have had vehicles from most of the NA auto companies... except
>> Dodge/Chrysler, but had lots of experience with them in the fleet at
>> work. I got shafted by all of them. Now I drive buy Japanese cars. I
>> currently have a Honda and a Toyota. I have also had Mazdas. I might
>> have bought another Mazda but Ford bought a big share of the company and
>> I was worried that they would have dropped the Mazda products to the
>> Ford level.
>>
> That link has now been cut!
> It's OK to buy Mazdas.

Good to know. Last two Fords I had were problematic. A Ranger with a
diesel engine was prone to leaks in the oil cooling line. It is not a
good thing to develop oil links in any vehicle and you especially don't
need it in a diesel. One might expect that the line from the engine to
the cooling rad would be a relatively inexpensive part that was quickly
and easily replaced. It was just a length of metal tubing with flared
ends and compression fittings, and should be quickly and easily replaced
by unscrewing the nuts at each end to remove the old one, and hook up
the nuts on the new one to replace. I don't remember how much I got
soaked for that repair but it was a lot, and I had to do it a couple times.

Service was the worst. Even with recalls and recalls I ended up paying
way too much. The battery in my 1988 Tempo failed. No problem Mr.
Smith, it's under warranty.... then I was reminded it was a pro rated
warranty.... 1988... $165 to replace the battery. I bitched about that
saying I could have gone to Canadian Tire and got a battery for $70.
The jerk said it would be a lower quality battery. I doubted it could be
lower quality that the one that died in less than a year. I was charged
an hour for labour... for a job I could have done myself in 10 minutes.
The icing on the cake was $46.95 for an AVR test. The service manager
said they couldn't just send a battery back and them it was no good. Why
not? The test would only tell them the battery was NFG. And why $46.95?
He asked if I thought they just snapped some clamps on the terminals
and took a reading. Yeah.... that is exactly what they do.

I told him to take a look at me going out because he would never see me
coming back in. However, I did go back in one more time. I stopped to
show them my new Mazda. I will never buy another Ford because, quality
of the vehicles aside, the dealers treat the franchise as a license to
steal in the service department.

On 6/28/2015 1:13 PM, graham wrote:

>> I have also had Mazdas. I might
>> have bought another Mazda but Ford bought a big share of the company and
>> I was worried that they would have dropped the Mazda products to the
>> Ford level.
>>
> That link has now been cut!
> It's OK to buy Mazdas.
> Graham
>
>

Saw a recent Yahoo article. Consumer Reports ranked Mazda in the top 5
reliable cars along with Toyota and Lexus. Ford was in the bottom 5
along with Chrysler, Mini, Fiat.

On 6/28/2015 11:45 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 6/28/2015 1:13 PM, graham wrote:
>
>>> I have also had Mazdas. I might
>>> have bought another Mazda but Ford bought a big share of the company and
>>> I was worried that they would have dropped the Mazda products to the
>>> Ford level.
>>>
>> That link has now been cut!
>> It's OK to buy Mazdas.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>
> Saw a recent Yahoo article. Consumer Reports ranked Mazda in the top 5
> reliable cars along with Toyota and Lexus. Ford was in the bottom 5
> along with Chrysler, Mini, Fiat.


Mazda builds how many cars/trucks vs. Ford?

Scale, scale.

On 2015-06-28 1:45 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Saw a recent Yahoo article. Consumer Reports ranked Mazda in the top 5
> reliable cars along with Toyota and Lexus. Ford was in the bottom 5
> along with Chrysler, Mini, Fiat.


Ford used to make decent pickup trucks. I worked in the equipment
section of the highways department for about 12 years and we had a fleet
of pickup trucks of various ages and makes. They tendered them out and
bought from whoever had the lowest bid. We lucked out when we got Fords.
We had only a few GMCs, and had a lot of serious problems with them.
We had a lot of Dodges. The engines and bodies were good on them but
they had a chronic ballast resistor issue and whenever we had cold wet
weather we had a bunch of Dodges that would not start. They started
carrying spare ballast resistors in glove compartment.

Ford also made a superior 5 ton truck, which was our standard for 2 axle
dump/plow truck. Unfortunately, International usually undercut their
prices. Being a government operation, they had to stick to the low
price and overlooked some critical issues. By the time our shop made all
the modifications to the Internationals they ended up costing more than
the FOrds that were pretty well ready to go. One of the major drawbacks
on the Internationals was having a flat windshield. These were plow
trucks, and they ended up with a lot of road sand and salt getting blown
across the windshields. They were replacing windshields once or twice a
year on each truck. We bought so many replacements that our supplier
managed to get a huge discount.

On 6/28/2015 2:03 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

>
> Ford also made a superior 5 ton truck, which was our standard for 2 axle
> dump/plow truck. Unfortunately, International usually undercut their
> prices. Being a government operation, they had to stick to the low
> price and overlooked some critical issues. By the time our shop made all
> the modifications to the Internationals they ended up costing more than
> the FOrds that were pretty well ready to go. One of the major drawbacks
> on the Internationals was having a flat windshield. These were plow
> trucks, and they ended up with a lot of road sand and salt getting blown
> across the windshields. They were replacing windshields once or twice a
> year on each truck. We bought so many replacements that our supplier
> managed to get a huge discount.
>
>

Someone was not writing the bid spec properly. Add in "windshield must
be curved" or similar.

On 6/28/2015 12:03 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> Ford used to make decent pickup trucks.


They still do = #1 selling truck in the US every year.

On 2015-06-28, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> Saw a recent Yahoo article. Consumer Reports ranked Mazda in the top 5

Consumer Reports has unreliable data.

I recall when they ranked a Toyota model as a top choice and a Chevy model
as "not" at good choice. Turns out both cars were exactly the same.
In fact, they were both made on the same assy line at the NUMMI plant
in Fremont, CA. It was merely the built-in bias car buyers had for
Toyota and against Chevy.

nb

On 6/28/2015 12:10 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2015-06-28, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> Saw a recent Yahoo article. Consumer Reports ranked Mazda in the top 5
>
> Consumer Reports has unreliable data.
>
> I recall when they ranked a Toyota model as a top choice and a Chevy model
> as "not" at good choice. Turns out both cars were exactly the same.
> In fact, they were both made on the same assy line at the NUMMI plant
> in Fremont, CA. It was merely the built-in bias car buyers had for
> Toyota and against Chevy.
>
> nb
>
+1

On 28/06/2015 12:10 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2015-06-28, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> Saw a recent Yahoo article. Consumer Reports ranked Mazda in the top 5
>
> Consumer Reports has unreliable data.
>
> I recall when they ranked a Toyota model as a top choice and a Chevy model
> as "not" at good choice. Turns out both cars were exactly the same.
> In fact, they were both made on the same assy line at the NUMMI plant
> in Fremont, CA. It was merely the built-in bias car buyers had for
> Toyota and against Chevy.
>
> nb
>
I've certainly noticed a bias in CR towards Subaru. I don't understand
why because when you look at the repair histories, they are not that good.
Graham

--

On 2015-06-28 3:27 PM, graham wrote:

> I've certainly noticed a bias in CR towards Subaru. I don't understand
> why because when you look at the repair histories, they are not that good.


Somebody once asked me about my Hondas and how the local dealership had
been for repairs. I didn't know. I never had to worry about it.

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 5:05:29 PM UTC-4, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-06-28 3:27 PM, graham wrote:
>
> > I've certainly noticed a bias in CR towards Subaru. I don't understand
> > why because when you look at the repair histories, they are not that good.
>
>
> Somebody once asked me about my Hondas and how the local dealership had
> been for repairs. I didn't know. I never had to worry about it.

Don't you go or didn't you go for the recommended checkups to keep the warranty in effect? Granted, they soak ya on stuff like oil changes, but.....

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:47:09 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2015-06-28 10:15 AM, notbob wrote:
>> On 2015-06-28, Dave Smith > wrote:
>>
>They did? I remember when "made in Japan" was synonymous" to "crap",
>cheaply made trinkets usually made is thin, low quality stamped metal
>assembled with tabs bent through slots. When Japanese cars first hit
>the North American market they were the cheapest models they had to
>offer. People were moderately impressed, knowing they had paid rock
>bottom prices but got something more reliable and longer lasting than
>they had expected. Then the Japanese raised the bar, offering higher
>quality cars with luxury accessories.

Now the baton (the value baton at least) is being handed to countries
such as Korea and Thailand, As Japan's population becomes more
wealthy, it drives up wages and so transfers to other countries as
mentioned above.

>The Japanese forced NA auto makers to improve their products and make
>them last longer.

That didn't work in Australia. Our local car manufacturers continued
to build large, fuel inefficient cars that Australians had long since
abandoned in favour of Japanese vehicles. Then, because they were
losing money hand over fist due to low sales, they made ongoing
cost-cutting measures, making the cars even crappier and unreliable
again... Ford Australia in particular was guilty of that.

>FWIW.... one of the guys in my kayak club has a mini van. He was telling
>me how much he liked it and how well it has lasted. It is a 1998 model
>and has over 400,000. The body looks great and it runs beautifully. I
>was amazed because, though I had seen it many times, been in it, loaded
>boats on top of it, something told me it was a Dodge. It turned out to
>be a Toyota.

A friend of mine was given a 1994 Toyota Hilux by his dad years ago.
It's done around 1.5 MILLION kilometres at this point and is still
going. It is on it's third (petrol) engine, but that can only be
expected. And this vehicle gets used in the bush daily and has to take
a lot of punishment.

On Monday, June 29, 2015 at 5:27:28 PM UTC-7, Je�us wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:47:09 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
> >On 2015-06-28 10:15 AM, notbob wrote:
> >> On 2015-06-28, Dave Smith > wrote:
> >>
> >They did? I remember when "made in Japan" was synonymous" to "crap",
> >cheaply made trinkets usually made is thin, low quality stamped metal
> >assembled with tabs bent through slots. When Japanese cars first hit
> >the North American market they were the cheapest models they had to
> >offer. People were moderately impressed, knowing they had paid rock
> >bottom prices but got something more reliable and longer lasting than
> >they had expected. Then the Japanese raised the bar, offering higher
> >quality cars with luxury accessories.
>
> Now the baton (the value baton at least) is being handed to countries
> such as Korea and Thailand, As Japan's population becomes more
> wealthy, it drives up wages and so transfers to other countries as
> mentioned above.
>
> >The Japanese forced NA auto makers to improve their products and make
> >them last longer.
>
> That didn't work in Australia. Our local car manufacturers continued
> to build large, fuel inefficient cars that Australians had long since
> abandoned in favour of Japanese vehicles. Then, because they were
> losing money hand over fist due to low sales, they made ongoing
> cost-cutting measures, making the cars even crappier and unreliable
> again... Ford Australia in particular was guilty of that.

The first Toyotas in the US were sold by used car dealers. Either the
Toyota or the Datsun actually used a Chevy engine. The first Subarus
imported could not legally be driven on the street.

The long supply chain from Japan caused the Japanese makers to ship
only high quality cars, that would not break down as easily as
American cars, which would require the stocking of mass quantities
of replacement parts.
The Datsun 240 and 260Z cars added luster to the line the way Corvette
did for Chevy.
Lower tariffs for truck assemblies caused large numbers of especially
Datsun pickups to be imported, to have beds attached in the US.
Quotas caused the product mix to shift to luxury cars,with the brands
Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti suddenly appearing.

Ford made some great cars in Europe, occasionally exporting some to the
US. But they seemed determined to make mediocre rides like Granada (not
the European Granada)and the Tempo in the US.

On 2015-06-30 11:34 AM, wrote:

> The first Toyotas in the US were sold by used car dealers. Either the
> Toyota or the Datsun actually used a Chevy engine. The first Subarus
> imported could not legally be driven on the street.

I don't know about Toyotas in Canada, but Datsun were most definitely
sold at dealerships. Granted, they were small, but they were franchised
dealers. My friend's father had the one in the city where we lived at
the time and my brother was the mechanic in their shop. My father
bought one the first year they were out.


>
> The long supply chain from Japan caused the Japanese makers to ship
> only high quality cars, that would not break down as easily as
> American cars, which would require the stocking of mass quantities
> of replacement parts.

My experience with Mazdas and Hondas is that as long as you do regular
service there were no breakdowns to worry about.



> Ford made some great cars in Europe, occasionally exporting some to the
> US. But they seemed determined to make mediocre rides like Granada (not
> the European Granada)and the Tempo in the US.

On a trip to Europe were rented a Ford model that I had never heard of
before... Montero? It was diesel, manual transmission and gave a decent
ride, even on the Autobahn at more than 90 mph.

In article >,
says...
>
> On 2015-06-30 11:34 AM, wrote:
>
> > The first Toyotas in the US were sold by used car dealers. Either the
> > Toyota or the Datsun actually used a Chevy engine. The first Subarus
> > imported could not legally be driven on the street.
>
> I don't know about Toyotas in Canada, but Datsun were most definitely
> sold at dealerships. Granted, they were small, but they were franchised
> dealers. My friend's father had the one in the city where we lived at
> the time and my brother was the mechanic in their shop. My father
> bought one the first year they were out.
>
>
> >
> > The long supply chain from Japan caused the Japanese makers to ship
> > only high quality cars, that would not break down as easily as
> > American cars, which would require the stocking of mass quantities
> > of replacement parts.
>
> My experience with Mazdas and Hondas is that as long as you do regular
> service there were no breakdowns to worry about.
>
>
>
> > Ford made some great cars in Europe, occasionally exporting some to the
> > US. But they seemed determined to make mediocre rides like Granada (not
> > the European Granada)and the Tempo in the US.
>
> On a trip to Europe were rented a Ford model that I had never heard of
> before... Montero? It was diesel, manual transmission and gave a decent
> ride, even on the Autobahn at more than 90 mph.

Ford Mondeo?

Janet UK

On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 9:50:17 AM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-06-30 11:34 AM, wrote:
>
> > The first Toyotas in the US were sold by used car dealers. Either the
> > Toyota or the Datsun actually used a Chevy engine. The first Subarus
> > imported could not legally be driven on the street.
>
> I don't know about Toyotas in Canada, but Datsun were most definitely
> sold at dealerships. Granted, they were small, but they were franchised
> dealers. My friend's father had the one in the city where we lived at
> the time and my brother was the mechanic in their shop. My father
> bought one the first year they were out.

I guess they were franchised, but they were sold as a sideline in the
early/middle 60s. The first dealerships I saw lacked brand identity.

> >
> > The long supply chain from Japan caused the Japanese makers to ship
> > only high quality cars, that would not break down as easily as
> > American cars, which would require the stocking of mass quantities
> > of replacement parts.
>
> My experience with Mazdas and Hondas is that as long as you do regular
> service there were no breakdowns to worry about.
>

My friend's rotary sedan needed expensive engine work and a new
automatic transmission. People I knew had great experiences with
Datsun, Honda, and Toyota, however. (One guy had to keep replacing
throw-out bearings, but he habitually rode the clutch.)

We had a Dodge Colt (Mitsubishi) which went through alternators
every couple years, and cracked the exhaust pipe after four. The
crack was due to vibrations set up by poorly chosen hanging points,
but Dodge would not pay for a replacement.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 16:21:05 -0300, wrote:

>I bought my Datsun 280ZX from the Datsun dealership in the late 70s. I
>saw one parked in a space the other day, still looked good with it's
>neat T bar roof. My grandson loved riding in that and called me
>Leadfoot Granny

I had one of those! It was a 1980, and I bought it used in about 1984.
It looked like this:

http://www.motortopia.com/cars/1980-datsun-280zx-4816

The first day I brought it home my husband asked if he could take it
out for a spin, and he squealed the tires all the way down the road,
with me standing at the end of the driveway screaming at him and
shaking my fists.

Now, many years later, I drive a Toyota Venza. More elbow room.

Doris

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:34:42 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Monday, June 29, 2015 at 5:27:28 PM UTC-7, Je�us wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:47:09 -0400, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On 2015-06-28 10:15 AM, notbob wrote:
>> >> On 2015-06-28, Dave Smith > wrote:
>> >>
>> >They did? I remember when "made in Japan" was synonymous" to "crap",
>> >cheaply made trinkets usually made is thin, low quality stamped metal
>> >assembled with tabs bent through slots. When Japanese cars first hit
>> >the North American market they were the cheapest models they had to
>> >offer. People were moderately impressed, knowing they had paid rock
>> >bottom prices but got something more reliable and longer lasting than
>> >they had expected. Then the Japanese raised the bar, offering higher
>> >quality cars with luxury accessories.
>>
>> Now the baton (the value baton at least) is being handed to countries
>> such as Korea and Thailand, As Japan's population becomes more
>> wealthy, it drives up wages and so transfers to other countries as
>> mentioned above.
>>
>> >The Japanese forced NA auto makers to improve their products and make
>> >them last longer.
>>
>> That didn't work in Australia. Our local car manufacturers continued
>> to build large, fuel inefficient cars that Australians had long since
>> abandoned in favour of Japanese vehicles. Then, because they were
>> losing money hand over fist due to low sales, they made ongoing
>> cost-cutting measures, making the cars even crappier and unreliable
>> again... Ford Australia in particular was guilty of that.
>
>The first Toyotas in the US were sold by used car dealers. Either the
>Toyota or the Datsun actually used a Chevy engine. The first Subarus
>imported could not legally be driven on the street.
>
>The long supply chain from Japan caused the Japanese makers to ship
>only high quality cars, that would not break down as easily as
>American cars, which would require the stocking of mass quantities
>of replacement parts.
>The Datsun 240 and 260Z cars added luster to the line the way Corvette
>did for Chevy.
>Lower tariffs for truck assemblies caused large numbers of especially
>Datsun pickups to be imported, to have beds attached in the US.
>Quotas caused the product mix to shift to luxury cars,with the brands
>Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti suddenly appearing.

Interesting, thanks for the U.S perspective.

>Ford made some great cars in Europe, occasionally exporting some to the
>US. But they seemed determined to make mediocre rides like Granada (not
>the European Granada)and the Tempo in the US.

IMO they did make a few good cars, but on the whole substandard, often
for the dumbest of reasons.

I have only owned one British built car, which was an RS3100 Capri.
Now that *was* a decent car, with leather interior, disc brakes, 9"
diff and a powerful (for the time) V6 engine. In hindsight, I got the
thing almost for nothing by trading cars. Long story short, because I
moved interstate and didn't really need the car, I eventually sold it
due to lack of use for $1000. Years later on the Internet I find out
it is a very rare model and a mint example sold at auction for
$70000... oh well, live and learn...