Hi

I made some cupcakes the other day using the ratio of ingredients given
in one of my cookery books for the "classic sponge", i.e:

equal parts fat, sugar, egg and S.R.flour

(hand beating the fat and sugar then gradually adding the egg followed
by mixing in the flour.

When looking at various other recipes for cakes based on those four
ingredients the ratios vary.

From a "scientific" point of view, what general effect do the different
ingredients have on the texture and physical properties of the cake?

A more specific question - for one batch of cupcakes I used vegetable
oil for the fat, agave syrup for the sugar and oat flour. It tasted very
nice but it was too crumbly.. how would I tweak the proportions of those
ingredients to make it hold together better - increase the egg content
or fat maybe?

Thanks
Bigus

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 13:27:58 +0100, Bigus >
wrote:

>Hi
>
>I made some cupcakes the other day using the ratio of ingredients given
>in one of my cookery books for the "classic sponge", i.e:
>
>equal parts fat, sugar, egg and S.R.flour
>
>(hand beating the fat and sugar then gradually adding the egg followed
>by mixing in the flour.
>
>When looking at various other recipes for cakes based on those four
>ingredients the ratios vary.
>
> From a "scientific" point of view, what general effect do the different
>ingredients have on the texture and physical properties of the cake?
>
>A more specific question - for one batch of cupcakes I used vegetable
>oil for the fat, agave syrup for the sugar and oat flour. It tasted very
>nice but it was too crumbly.. how would I tweak the proportions of those
>ingredients to make it hold together better - increase the egg content
>or fat maybe?
>
>Thanks
>Bigus
The book by Shirley Corriher gives all your specific answers and
methods of tweeking ingredients to suit your preferences. She will
give recipes to demonstrate. IMO, she's the easiest to follow. An
extensive book on the subject of food chemistry can be had from
Harold McGee. If you just want to lightly satisfy your curiosity, I
would frame a question for the Internet -- something like 'what is the
effect of fat on baking?' You'll have to do some picking and choosing
to get where you want. The questions you have asked have a multitude
of answers.
Janet US

On 6/11/2013 7:27 AM, Bigus wrote:
> Hi
>
> I made some cupcakes the other day using the ratio of ingredients
> given in one of my cookery books for the "classic sponge", i.e:
>
> equal parts fat, sugar, egg and S.R.flour
>
> (hand beating the fat and sugar then gradually adding the egg followed
> by mixing in the flour.
>
> When looking at various other recipes for cakes based on those four
> ingredients the ratios vary.
>
> From a "scientific" point of view, what general effect do the
> different ingredients have on the texture and physical properties of
> the cake?
>
> A more specific question - for one batch of cupcakes I used vegetable
> oil for the fat, agave syrup for the sugar and oat flour. It tasted
> very nice but it was too crumbly.. how would I tweak the proportions
> of those ingredients to make it hold together better - increase the
> egg content or fat maybe?

One cause can be insufficient gluten development. You don't want very
much in a cake, but you need some to hold it together. Oat flour has
no gluten. Try making the recipe with a combination of wheat and oat
flour, and maybe add a spoonful or juice or water to the flour mixture
and stir briefly before adding the remaining ingredients.

Food scientist Shirley Corriher (author of 'Cookwise' and 'Bakewise' -
two of the key texts on the chemistry of cooking) goes into some
details about the effect of ingredients in cooking in this article:

http://www.cookinglight.com/cooking-...0400000001071/

More on how ingredients work:

http://www.meredith.edu/graduate/nut...1_corriher.pdf

http://www.culinate.com/articles/fea...king_chemistry

Bigus wrote:
> Hi
>
> I made some cupcakes the other day using the ratio of ingredients
> given in one of my cookery books for the "classic sponge", i.e:
>
> equal parts fat, sugar, egg and S.R.flour
>
> (hand beating the fat and sugar then gradually adding the egg followed
> by mixing in the flour.
>
> When looking at various other recipes for cakes based on those four
> ingredients the ratios vary.
>
> From a "scientific" point of view, what general effect do the
> different ingredients have on the texture and physical properties of
> the cake?
> A more specific question - for one batch of cupcakes I used vegetable
> oil for the fat, agave syrup for the sugar and oat flour. It tasted
> very nice but it was too crumbly.. how would I tweak the proportions
> of those ingredients to make it hold together better - increase the
> egg content or fat maybe?
>
> Thanks
> Bigus

You can't just sub in one sweetener for another and especially not one flour
for another The agave is a liquid so you can't sub that. You could sub
another granular sweetener, like coconut sugar.

I do not think you could just sub the oat flour here. The texture would be
off. Try a mix of other flours. If you are avoiding wheat, you could use
brown or white rice flour...I'd probably use white here to lighten it, and
two or three other flours or starches like potato, tapioca or corn. The
problem with subbing for wheat flour is that you have no gluten. And gluten
gives texture and helps to leaven. When you are working with alternate
flours, you also need to add xanthan gum. I no longer bake gluten free so
can't remember the proportions but it should say on the container.

On Jun 11, 8:27*am, Bigus > wrote:
> Hi
>
> I made some cupcakes the other day using the ratio of ingredients given
> in one of my cookery books for the "classic sponge", i.e:
>
> equal parts fat, sugar, egg and S.R.flour
>
> (hand beating the fat and sugar then gradually adding the egg followed
> by mixing in the flour.


That's a pound cake, not a sponge cake. A sponge cake doesn't have
any fat in it other than what's in the eggs. For a traditional sponge
cake you separate the eggs and beat the yolks with some of the sugar
until they reach the "ribbon stage". Next, add salt and flavoring.
Then, gradually stir in the flour. Beat the egg whites to soft peaks
and gently fold in. A sponge cake gets all it's leavening from the
air that's trapped in the beaten egg whites. An angel food cake is a
sponge cake made with egg whites only. A chiffon cake is prepared
like a sponge cake but it has oil added to it to make it moist and
tender. If you add melted butter instead of oil, you have a
genoise. A butter cake is your typical layer cake. It has fewer
eggs than a sponge cake and usually has baking powder and/or baking
soda in it for leavening. Of course these definitions aren't written
in stone. There are many cases where the definitions overlap.

When it comes to cake, ingredients can be broken into two type of
groups. One is wet vs. dry. The other is tenderizers vs. tougheners
or strengtheners. Wet vs. dry seems pretty simple but one has to be
aware of water that may be hiding in certain ingredients such as
butter. A cake made with butter is going to come out different from a
one that's made with all shortening. So always use the type of fat
specified in the recipe if it's your first time making it. Naturally
there's quite a range in how thick cake batters are. However,
generally if the batter is too thick the cake will come out dry and
heavy, and if it's too thin it won't be able to maintain its structure
when it rises and it will fall.
Also, believe it or not, sugar is considered to be a wet ingredient.
One way to make brownies more moist and fudgy without making them
heavy is to add more sugar. For a 9"x13" pan of brownies, I use 2 2/3
cups of sugar.

Flour and eggs provide structure for the cake. They toughen it or
strengthen it. Sugars and fats tenderize a cake. So you have to have
the right balance between the two types. A cake that doesn't have
enough sugar or fat will be dry and chewy. A cake that has too much
will fall apart. Even though sugar and fat are both tenderizers, they
don't behave the same way. An angel food cake is made with all sugar
and no fat. It's tender but it doesn't have the same texture that a
butter cake does.

If you really want to learn about baking cakes, the thing to do is to
dive right in. Make a tried and true recipe and then see what happens
when you change things around. If you end up with a few flops, well
then you've learned something about what does and doesn't work. Also,
get a good kitchen scale. For consistant results in baking, you
should weigh your ingredients rather than relying on measuring cups.

1 cup all-purpose flour = 125 grams
1 cup cake flour = 118 grams
1 cup granulated sugar = 200 grams
1 cup firmly packed light brown sugar = 228 grams

On Jun 11, 7:32*pm, " > wrote:
> On Jun 11, 8:27*am, Bigus > wrote:
>
> > Hi
>
> > I made some cupcakes the other day using the ratio of ingredients given
> > in one of my cookery books for the "classic sponge", i.e:
>
> > equal parts fat, sugar, egg and S.R.flour
>
> > (hand beating the fat and sugar then gradually adding the egg followed
> > by mixing in the flour.
>
> That's a pound cake, not a sponge cake. *A sponge cake doesn't have
> any fat in it other than what's in the eggs. *For a traditional sponge
> cake you separate the eggs and beat the yolks with some of the sugar
> until they reach the "ribbon stage". *Next, add salt and flavoring.
> Then, gradually stir in the flour. *Beat the egg whites to soft peaks
> and gently fold in. *A sponge cake gets all it's leavening from the
> air that's trapped in the beaten egg whites. *An angel food cake is a
> sponge cake made with egg whites only. *A chiffon cake is prepared
> like a sponge cake but it has oil added to it to make it moist and
> tender. *If you add melted butter instead of oil, you have a
> genoise. * A butter cake is your typical layer cake. *It has fewer
> eggs than a sponge cake and usually has baking powder and/or baking
> soda in it for leavening. *Of course these definitions aren't written
> in stone. *There are many cases where the definitions overlap.
>
> When it comes to cake, ingredients can be broken into two type of
> groups. One is wet vs. dry. *The other is tenderizers vs. tougheners
> or strengtheners. *Wet vs. dry seems pretty simple but one has to be
> aware of water that may be hiding in certain ingredients such as
> butter. *A cake made with butter is going to come out different from a
> one that's made with all shortening. *So always use the type of fat
> specified in the recipe if it's your first time making it. *Naturally
> there's quite a range in how thick cake batters are. *However,
> generally if the batter is too thick the cake will come out dry and
> heavy, and if it's too thin it won't be able to maintain its structure
> when it rises and it will fall.
> *Also, believe it or not, sugar is considered to be a wet ingredient.
> One way to make brownies *more moist and fudgy without making them
> heavy is to add more sugar. *For a 9"x13" pan of brownies, I use 2 2/3
> cups of sugar.
>
> Flour and eggs provide structure for the cake. *They toughen it or
> strengthen it. *Sugars and fats tenderize a cake. *So you have to have
> the right balance between the two types. *A cake that doesn't have
> enough sugar or fat will be dry and chewy. *A cake that has too much
> will fall apart. *Even though sugar and fat are both tenderizers, they
> don't behave the same way. *An angel food cake is made with all sugar
> and no fat. *It's tender but it doesn't have the same texture that a
> butter cake does.
>
> If you really want to learn about baking cakes, the thing to do is to
> dive right in. *Make a tried and true recipe and then see what happens
> when you change things around. * If you end up with a few flops, well
> then you've learned something about what does and doesn't work. *Also,
> get a good kitchen scale. *For consistant results in baking, you
> should weigh your ingredients rather than relying on measuring cups.
>
> 1 cup all-purpose flour = 125 grams
> 1 cup cake flour = 118 grams
> 1 cup granulated sugar = 200 grams
> 1 cup firmly packed light brown sugar *= 228 grams

Sponge type cakes that are leavened with beaten egg whites are also
known as foam cakes. Butter cakes are also known as creamed cakes
because the butter and sugar are creamed together. The creaming traps
air in the butter and helps make the cake light.

On 11/06/2013 23:15, Julie Bove wrote:

>
> You can't just sub in one sweetener for another and especially not one flour
> for another The agave is a liquid so you can't sub that. You could sub
> another granular sweetener, like coconut sugar.
>
> I do not think you could just sub the oat flour here. The texture would be
> off. Try a mix of other flours. If you are avoiding wheat, you could use
> brown or white rice flour...I'd probably use white here to lighten it, and
> two or three other flours or starches like potato, tapioca or corn. The
> problem with subbing for wheat flour is that you have no gluten. And gluten
> gives texture and helps to leaven. When you are working with alternate
> flours, you also need to add xanthan gum. I no longer bake gluten free so
> can't remember the proportions but it should say on the container.

THanks for your reply.

One of the cake variations I tried did actually hold together - that was
using oat flour, yakon syrup, egg and virgin coconut oil. I expect that
worked because coconut oil hardens at room temperature (well, in the
sub-20oC temps that prevail around these parts!) and thus perhaps
stiffened the cake.

Main aim here is to use healthier fats, lower GI sweeteners and
unrefined gluten-free flour. You're probably right about the texture
being off on the ones I tried but I am not too worried about that as
long as the cake tastes good and holds the same shape as a normal
cupcake. Colour of the cake is fine too - the yakon syrup made them look
a bit like treacle cake which still looks appetising.

Coconut sugar is definitely one I'll try, I have some in stock. I find
it a bit too large granuled but I ran some through my coffee grinder
when I made some ice-cream with it recently and last definitely helped.

Thanks for the pointer on xanthan gum. I have googled that and it sounds
like it might help.

B

On 11/06/2013 15:08, Janet Bostwick wrote:

> The book by Shirley Corriher gives all your specific answers and
> methods of tweeking ingredients to suit your preferences. She will
> give recipes to demonstrate. IMO, she's the easiest to follow. An
> extensive book on the subject of food chemistry can be had from
> Harold McGee. If you just want to lightly satisfy your curiosity, I
> would frame a question for the Internet -- something like 'what is the
> effect of fat on baking?' You'll have to do some picking and choosing
> to get where you want. The questions you have asked have a multitude
> of answers.
> Janet US

Thanks for the reply.

The links Moe provided seem to cover pretty much everything in the
science department. I can see the interactions of ingredients aren't
quite so straightforward, so need to get my learning hat on!

Presumably the book you mean by Shirley Corriher is "Bakewise". That
does sound good, I'll add that to my list.

B

On 11/06/2013 20:46, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

>>
>> A more specific question - for one batch of cupcakes I used vegetable
>> oil for the fat, agave syrup for the sugar and oat flour. It tasted
>> very nice but it was too crumbly.. how would I tweak the proportions
>> of those ingredients to make it hold together better - increase the
>> egg content or fat maybe?
>
> One cause can be insufficient gluten development. You don't want very
> much in a cake, but you need some to hold it together. Oat flour has no
> gluten. Try making the recipe with a combination of wheat and oat flour,
> and maybe add a spoonful or juice or water to the flour mixture and stir
> briefly before adding the remaining ingredients.
>
> Food scientist Shirley Corriher (author of 'Cookwise' and 'Bakewise' -
> two of the key texts on the chemistry of cooking) goes into some details
> about the effect of ingredients in cooking in this article:
>
> http://www.cookinglight.com/cooking-...0400000001071/
>
> More on how ingredients work:
>
> http://www.meredith.edu/graduate/nut...1_corriher.pdf
> http://www.culinate.com/articles/fea...king_chemistry

Thanks for the links. That Corriher PDF is a brilliantly concise
troubleshooter.

the gluten. I had read somewhere it wasn't so important in cakes,
but evidently it sitll does play a role. I will try xanthan/guar gum and
see if that improves it.

B

"Bigus" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/06/2013 23:15, Julie Bove wrote:
>
>>
>> You can't just sub in one sweetener for another and especially not one
>> flour
>> for another The agave is a liquid so you can't sub that. You could sub
>> another granular sweetener, like coconut sugar.
>>
>> I do not think you could just sub the oat flour here. The texture would
>> be
>> off. Try a mix of other flours. If you are avoiding wheat, you could
>> use
>> brown or white rice flour...I'd probably use white here to lighten it,
>> and
>> two or three other flours or starches like potato, tapioca or corn. The
>> problem with subbing for wheat flour is that you have no gluten. And
>> gluten
>> gives texture and helps to leaven. When you are working with alternate
>> flours, you also need to add xanthan gum. I no longer bake gluten free
>> so
>> can't remember the proportions but it should say on the container.
>
> THanks for your reply.
>
> One of the cake variations I tried did actually hold together - that was
> using oat flour, yakon syrup, egg and virgin coconut oil. I expect that
> worked because coconut oil hardens at room temperature (well, in the
> sub-20oC temps that prevail around these parts!) and thus perhaps
> stiffened the cake.
>
> Main aim here is to use healthier fats, lower GI sweeteners and unrefined
> gluten-free flour. You're probably right about the texture being off on
> the ones I tried but I am not too worried about that as long as the cake
> tastes good and holds the same shape as a normal cupcake. Colour of the
> cake is fine too - the yakon syrup made them look a bit like treacle cake
> which still looks appetising.
>
> Coconut sugar is definitely one I'll try, I have some in stock. I find it
> a bit too large granuled but I ran some through my coffee grinder when I
> made some ice-cream with it recently and last definitely helped.
>
> Thanks for the pointer on xanthan gum. I have googled that and it sounds
> like it might help.
>
> B

Keep in mind that oat flour is not gluten free unless it specifically says
that it is. Although oats in and of themselves do not contain gluten, the
way that they are grown, harvested, stored and transported subjects them to
cross contamination with other grains. But there are farmers who are
dedicated to keeping their oats GF.