WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Jul 10, 4:48*pm, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:18:43 -0700, sf > wrote:
> >On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 20:03:21 +0000 (UTC),
> >(Steve Pope) wrote:
>
> >> Becca > wrote:
>
> >> >If you grind the meat yourself, it would be skirt steak, flank steak,
> >> >brisket. *I like sirloin and chuck, but the fat is not distributed
> >> >properly for beef patties, so you get too many pieces with no fat and
> >> >then you get pieces of solid fat.
>
> >> James Beard says to grind up the meat with some suet. *Has
> >> anyone here tried this?
>
> >Can you find suet anymore?
>
> Yes, but it's not going to be fresh so not worth buying... cowl fat
> the same, in a container it's gonna be woofy. *It's better to freeze
> the white firm fat from a roast.

==
Ask the meat manager for some "cod fat"...very likely not but that is
the best for adding to ground beef. You don't see much of it on beef
carcasses anymore as it is usually trimmed at the packing plant. The
nicest cod fat comes from 4-H calves as they typically are overfed in
my estimation, however the meat from these calves is super albeit
costly as a rule. Commercial ground suet may have been frozen or in
storage for a while and I wouldn't recommend it.

Note: Cod fat comes from beef not fish in this instance.

==

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

Roy > wrote:

>Those who eat their burgers a la tartar are risking an E Coli
>infection.

Only if you're eating Wrong Beef.


Steve

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Jul 10, 5:04*pm, (Steve Pope) wrote:
> Roy > wrote:
> >Those who eat their burgers a la tartar are risking an E Coli
> >infection.
>
> Only if you're eating Wrong Beef.
>
> Steve

==
And how can you tell which is the right beef?...most beef harbors E
Coli but not all strains are killers. Even the cleanest and best
packing plants have to be alert to the danger. I worked in a packing
plant as a young man and you should have seen some of the "suspect"
animals that came down the line. The live steam hoses came out after
some of them were opened up and the health inspectors directed the
workers to flush the entrails down the the sewer to the tankage room.
Thank Gawd for the veterinarian inspectors who work to keep our food
supply safe as is possible.

I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
matter the source of the supply.

==

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

Roy > wrote:

>On Jul 10, 5:04*pm, (Steve Pope) wrote:

>> Roy > wrote:

>> >Those who eat their burgers a la tartar are risking an E Coli
>> >infection.

>> Only if you're eating Wrong Beef.

>And how can you tell which is the right beef?...most beef harbors E
>Coli but not all strains are killers. Even the cleanest and best
>packing plants have to be alert to the danger. I worked in a packing
>plant as a young man and you should have seen some of the "suspect"
>animals that came down the line. The live steam hoses came out after
>some of them were opened up and the health inspectors directed the
>workers to flush the entrails down the the sewer to the tankage room.
>Thank Gawd for the veterinarian inspectors who work to keep our food
>supply safe as is possible.

>I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
>matter the source of the supply.


Buy from a small farmer who is sanitary, and you can eat rare
beef. Avoid factory meet. Not a problem.

Steve

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

notbob wrote:
>
> I want to make a good ...no, GREAT!... hamburger. I know the meat is
> all, so I'm looking for opinions. What makes a great hamburger patty?
>
> I recently bought ground sirloin (4% fat). Tough as nails. So tough,
> in fact, it didn't even work as sloppy joes and the dog feasted. That
> prepackaged crap in the sausage-shaped tubes is also out. Shelly says
> sirloin and chuck, in what ratio I don't recall, but I want no more of
> that sirloin boot heel stuff. Round? Chuck? A blend? What? I'm
> hitting an actual butcher shop today and will order whatever I choose
> ground on the spot. It will be grilled over charcoal. What say ye
> serious burger freaks?
>
> nb

Get a nice looking chuck roast. Get your charcoal (1,200F) grill going.
Grind the chuck roast. Mix a little Bolner's Fiesta brand Fajita
Seasoning into the ground chuck and form the burgers. Grill close to the
coals a couple minutes per side, then move off to the side of the grill
for a few more minutes to finish. Serve on nice kaiser rolls with
McCormick Chipotle Mayo, deli mild cheddar cheese, caramelized TX sweet
onions, Wright thick cut bacon and a few hamburger slice dill pickle
slices.

I did exactly that this afternoon BTW.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On 7/10/2010 3:24 PM, brooklyn1 wrote:
>> On Jul 10, 8:45 am, > wrote:
>>>
>>> I was a meat cutter for a good many years. One "beef" I have about
>>> this whole process is the addition of ice cubes to ground beef...lots
>>> of meat shops do this. Water is cheap and it "weighs"...that means
>>> "profit". If you end up with a pan full of water and shrunken pale
>>> burgers, its because there was too much ice added. On the BBQ, too
>>> much water in the burger makes crumbly burgers than break up and fall
>>> through the grills. Better to have too much fat rather than water
>>> IMHO...at least the fat has some flavor.
>
> Water is not added unless the label says "water added", and then it
> can't be labled "ground beef"... has to be called something else, like
> "wet beef sausage".
>
>>> Buying ground beef is a crap shoot. Find a good supplier and stick
>>> with 'em.
>
> There's no such thing as a supplier that doesn't cheat. Even if you
> watch with your own eyes you still have no idea what was in that
> grinder previously and when it was last cleaned, commercial grinders
> hold like two pounds of meat so your nice piece of meat pushes
> whatever cheapo meat is in the hopper out... soon as you walk away the
> butcher pushes through two pounds of scraps that pushes your nice
> piece of meat out and he brings it home. The ONLY way to know
> what/who comes out of a grinder is for you to grind your own yourself.
> Anyone who buys previously ground mystery meat can't legitimately
> claim to be a cook.... if yer gonna make chili with packs of ground
> meat from the stupidmarket you may as well buy canned chili and simply
> doctor it.... the meat in canned chilli is ALWAYS better quality than
> previously ground mystery meat.
>
>> The excuse for using water is that electric grinders heat up the meat.
>
> Bullshit.
>
> Only the motor heats, not the grinder. Ice is typically added to the
> mixture when grinding sausage meat *at home*, keeps the extra fatty
> meat from smearing is all... usually for home grinding with smaller
> machines. Ice is not added to commercially sold ground beef in the
> US, by law nothing can be added to "ground beef". Large commercial
> grinders don't smear. Adding water will make any size machine smear,
> it's just not done. If water is added (to cheat on weight) it would
> be mixed into already ground meat.... no shop in the US is going to
> risk getting shut down by adding water, they have plenty of fercocktah
> scraps they can add legally, and they do.

So the laws of physics are different in your mind? When you do work on
something such as by grinding there is friction which raises the
temperature. It is a pretty basic concept.

One of the most basic requirements for a meat processor is they must
have temperature control of the meat during grinding and the government
specifically requires that ice is added to remove heat due to the very
well known idea that friction creates heat.


>
> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
>
>

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Jul 10, 2:02*pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> jmcquown wrote:
>
> > At least 80 beef/20 fat content. *Ground round results in a pretty much dry,
> > tasteless burger. *You need a certain amount of fat for a good burger.. *I'd
> > ask the butcher first, but I'd opt for a nice fatty cut of chuck, ground to
> > order. *The fat will cook off when you grill it. *IMHO
>
> Even 80/20 seems too lean to me for a hamburger.
>
> The fat dripping down on the coals and flaring up
> will give it an additional dimension of flavor.
> I used to avoid that when grilling steaks, out of
> fear of carcinogens, but the risk really isn't
> that high compared to eating meats cured with
> nitrates and/or nitrites. *Smoked meats are also
> a small risk compared to cured meats.
>
> Of course, I haven't eaten a hamburger since the
> 1980's, so my advice may be considered suspect.

I love lean burgers, thick, and cooked med rare over a wood fire. I
know that rare ground beef poses some risk, but it's one a take, and
my 8 YO son insists on his no more that MR too. I don't find them dry
or tasteless and reject the idea of the flavor being mostly in the
fat. I love the taste of fresh, raw, cow muscle tissue.

--Bryan

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On 7/10/2010 6:30 PM, Roy wrote:
> On Jul 10, 1:24 pm, > wrote:
>>> On Jul 10, 8:45 am, > wrote:
>>
>>>> I was a meat cutter for a good many years. One "beef" I have about
>>>> this whole process is the addition of ice cubes to ground beef...lots
>>>> of meat shops do this. Water is cheap and it "weighs"...that means
>>>> "profit". If you end up with a pan full of water and shrunken pale
>>>> burgers, its because there was too much ice added. On the BBQ, too
>>>> much water in the burger makes crumbly burgers than break up and fall
>>>> through the grills. Better to have too much fat rather than water
>>>> IMHO...at least the fat has some flavor.
>>
>> Water is not added unless the label says "water added", and then it
>> can't be labled "ground beef"... has to be called something else, like
>> "wet beef sausage".
>>
>>>> Buying ground beef is a crap shoot. Find a good supplier and stick
>>>> with 'em.
>>
>> There's no such thing as a supplier that doesn't cheat. Even if you
>> watch with your own eyes you still have no idea what was in that
>> grinder previously and when it was last cleaned, commercial grinders
>> hold like two pounds of meat so your nice piece of meat pushes
>> whatever cheapo meat is in the hopper out... soon as you walk away the
>> butcher pushes through two pounds of scraps that pushes your nice
>> piece of meat out and he brings it home. The ONLY way to know
>> what/who comes out of a grinder is for you to grind your own yourself.
>> Anyone who buys previously ground mystery meat can't legitimately
>> claim to be a cook.... if yer gonna make chili with packs of ground
>> meat from the stupidmarket you may as well buy canned chili and simply
>> doctor it.... the meat in canned chilli is ALWAYS better quality than
>> previously ground mystery meat.
>>
>>> The excuse for using water is that electric grinders heat up the meat.
>>
>> Bullshit.
>>
>> Only the motor heats, not the grinder. Ice is typically added to the
>> mixture when grinding sausage meat *at home*, keeps the extra fatty
>> meat from smearing is all... usually for home grinding with smaller
>> machines. Ice is not added to commercially sold ground beef in the
>> US, by law nothing can be added to "ground beef". Large commercial
>> grinders don't smear. Adding water will make any size machine smear,
>> it's just not done. If water is added (to cheat on weight) it would
>> be mixed into already ground meat.... no shop in the US is going to
>> risk getting shut down by adding water, they have plenty of fercocktah
>> scraps they can add legally, and they do.
>>
>> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
>> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
>
> ==
> You are so full of shit. I worked for a major supermarket by the same
> of S****** many moons ago and every one of the stores that I worked in
> added ice to their burger. It gives a nice red "bloom" to the meat and
> makes the burger easier to "tray" as well as it is cooler, not as
> sticky and looks great.
>
> Been there, done that.
> ==
>
>
Yes, my buddy has a commercial refrigeration business and I have seen
meat being ground on large scale and the meat inspector checks the
temperature rise that is caused by the friction of grinding and making
sure enough ice is added to limit it.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Jul 10, 8:24*pm, George > wrote:
> On 7/10/2010 3:24 PM, brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>
>
> >> On Jul 10, 8:45 am, > *wrote:
>
> >>> I was a meat cutter for a good many years. One "beef" I have about
> >>> this whole process is the addition of ice cubes to ground beef...lots
> >>> of meat shops do this. Water is cheap and it "weighs"...that means
> >>> "profit". If you end up with a pan full of water and shrunken pale
> >>> burgers, its because there was too much ice added. On the BBQ, too
> >>> much water in the burger makes crumbly burgers than break up and fall
> >>> through the grills. Better to have too much fat rather than water
> >>> IMHO...at least the fat has some flavor.
>
> > Water is not added unless the label says "water added", and then it
> > can't be labled "ground beef"... has to be called something else, like
> > "wet beef sausage".
>
> >>> Buying ground beef is a crap shoot. Find a good supplier and stick
> >>> with 'em.
>
> > There's no such thing as a supplier that doesn't cheat. *Even if you
> > watch with your own eyes you still have no idea what was in that
> > grinder previously and when it was last cleaned, commercial grinders
> > hold like two pounds of meat so your nice piece of meat pushes
> > whatever cheapo meat is in the hopper out... soon as you walk away the
> > butcher pushes through two pounds of scraps that pushes your nice
> > piece of meat out and he brings it home. *The ONLY way to know
> > what/who comes out of a grinder is for you to grind your own yourself.
> > Anyone who buys previously ground mystery meat can't legitimately
> > claim to be a cook.... if yer gonna make chili with packs of ground
> > meat from the stupidmarket you may as well buy canned chili and simply
> > doctor it.... the meat in canned chilli is ALWAYS better quality than
> > previously ground mystery meat.
>
> >> The excuse for using water is that electric grinders heat up the meat.
>
> > Bullshit.
>
> > Only the motor heats, not the grinder. *Ice is typically added to the
> > mixture when grinding sausage meat *at home*, keeps the extra fatty
> > meat from smearing is all... usually for home grinding with smaller
> > machines. *Ice is not added to commercially sold ground beef in the
> > US, by law nothing can be added to "ground beef". *Large commercial
> > grinders don't smear. *Adding water will make any size machine smear,
> > it's just not done. *If water is added (to cheat on weight) it would
> > be mixed into already ground meat.... no shop in the US is going to
> > risk getting shut down by adding water, they have plenty of fercocktah
> > scraps they can add legally, and they do.
>
> So the laws of physics are different in your mind? When you do work on
> something such as by grinding there is friction which raises the
> temperature. It is a pretty basic concept.
>
> One of the most basic requirements for a meat processor is they must
> have temperature control of the meat during grinding and the government
> specifically requires that ice is added to remove heat due to the very
> well known idea that friction creates heat.
>
>
>
> > Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
> > grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.

==
If you are grinding chilled meat the effect of forcing the cool meat
through the cutter and the plate will pretty well counteract the heat
created by the friction of the cutter against the plate providing you
haven't tightened the locking collar excessively. Many grinders are
located in air-conditioned cutting rooms or in meat coolers where the
grinder is always cool. There may be a slight bit of heat rise but not
excessively so. Over tightening the locking collar to overcome the use
of a dull cutter and/or a worn out plate can really cause problems. I
have ground tens of thousands of pounds of ground beef in my lifetime.
==

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"Roy" > wrote
> I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
> matter the source of the supply.

That is why many of us grind our own. The factory stuff is horrid.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

Lew Hodgett > wrote:

>
>In all my years on the road, only found one place that served Steak
>Tartare, The Theatrical Grill on Short Vincent in Cleveland.

You must not eat at many Vietnamese restaurants.
>
>There beef supplier provided Angus beef grown in Northern Ohio.
>
>What a watering hole.
>
>Last one I had was about 30 years ago.
>
>Not sure I'd try one today.

For sure, commercial-grade beef was healthier decades ago. Same with
commercial milk... lots of things.

People brought up to think most basic foods are wholesome sometimes
have trouble accepting.


S.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

Lew Hodgett > wrote:

>"Steve Pope" wrote:

>> You must not eat at many Vietnamese restaurants.

>Even with "Little Saigon" just down the road a piece, I'll take Thai
>in preference.

Yes, but raw beef is not a Thai specialty. Or at least, it's
not part of the standard U.S.-Thai menu.

Steve

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

Roy > wrote:

> I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
> matter the source of the supply.

Why? The inside of a piece of intact muscle meat is sterile, so, to get
rid of any bacteria on the outside you just have to rinse it. This
freshly-rinsed piece of meat, once freshly-minced/ground - ideally by
yourself - is basically safe - if it is consumed at once, whether cooked
or not.

Victor

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

In article >,
notbob > wrote:

> I want to make a good ...no, GREAT!... hamburger. I know the meat is
> all, so I'm looking for opinions. What makes a great hamburger patty?
>
> I recently bought ground sirloin (4% fat). Tough as nails. So tough,
> in fact, it didn't even work as sloppy joes and the dog feasted. That
> prepackaged crap in the sausage-shaped tubes is also out. Shelly says
> sirloin and chuck, in what ratio I don't recall, but I want no more of
> that sirloin boot heel stuff. Round? Chuck? A blend? What? I'm
> hitting an actual butcher shop today and will order whatever I choose
> ground on the spot. It will be grilled over charcoal. What say ye
> serious burger freaks?

By far the best hamburger I ever had was made from Kobe beef. I did not
make it. I was having lunch with some business associates one day a few
years ago. They took me to a restaurant and I saw a Kobe beef burger on
the menu so I ordered it. It was amazing! Very juicy, loaded with beef
flavor, but it cost $20, which ended up being fine because one of the
people in my party picked up the tab, which I did not expect when I
ordered my lunch.

Once on the TV Food Network, I saw David Rosengarten make a burger out
of a variety of meats which he ground himself on the show. As I recall,
he used equal parts of ground brisket, pork, and sirloin. His hamburger
looked very good, but of course, all those TV cooking shows make the
food they show look appealing.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:16:27 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:

>Roy > wrote:
>
>> I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
>> matter the source of the supply.
>
>Why? The inside of a piece of intact muscle meat is sterile, so, to get
>rid of any bacteria on the outside you just have to rinse it. This
>freshly-rinsed piece of meat, once freshly-minced/ground - ideally by
>yourself - is basically safe - if it is consumed at once, whether cooked
>or not.
>
>Victor

You're attempting to educate this new bunch of the most ignorant
kitchen kooks to have come down the pike in years.... LOL

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:16:27 +0200, (Victor Sack)
> wrote:
>
>>Roy > wrote:
>>
>>> I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
>>> matter the source of the supply.
>>
>>Why? The inside of a piece of intact muscle meat is sterile, so, to get
>>rid of any bacteria on the outside you just have to rinse it. This
>>freshly-rinsed piece of meat, once freshly-minced/ground - ideally by
>>yourself - is basically safe - if it is consumed at once, whether cooked
>>or not.
>>
>>Victor
>
> You're attempting to educate this new bunch of the most ignorant
> kitchen kooks to have come down the pike in years.... LOL
>

The new generation is buying into the whole germophobe thing. Wipe it
clean, disinfect it! (Buy our products.)

Jill

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

George Dunce wrote:

>On 7/10/2010 3:24 PM, brooklyn1 wrote:
>>> On Jul 10, 8:45 am, > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was a meat cutter for a good many years.

Obviously a lie.

>>>> One "beef" I have about
>>>> this whole process is the addition of ice cubes to ground beef...lots
>>>> of meat shops do this. Water is cheap and it "weighs"...that means
>>>> "profit". If you end up with a pan full of water and shrunken pale
>>>> burgers, its because there was too much ice added. On the BBQ, too
>>>> much water in the burger makes crumbly burgers than break up and fall
>>>> through the grills. Better to have too much fat rather than water
>>>> IMHO...at least the fat has some flavor.
>>
>> Water is not added unless the label says "water added", and then it
>> can't be labled "ground beef"... has to be called something else, like
>> "wet beef sausage".
>>
>>>> Buying ground beef is a crap shoot. Find a good supplier and stick
>>>> with 'em.
>>
>> There's no such thing as a supplier that doesn't cheat. Even if you
>> watch with your own eyes you still have no idea what was in that
>> grinder previously and when it was last cleaned, commercial grinders
>> hold like two pounds of meat so your nice piece of meat pushes
>> whatever cheapo meat is in the hopper out... soon as you walk away the
>> butcher pushes through two pounds of scraps that pushes your nice
>> piece of meat out and he brings it home. The ONLY way to know
>> what/who comes out of a grinder is for you to grind your own yourself.
>> Anyone who buys previously ground mystery meat can't legitimately
>> claim to be a cook.... if yer gonna make chili with packs of ground
>> meat from the stupidmarket you may as well buy canned chili and simply
>> doctor it.... the meat in canned chilli is ALWAYS better quality than
>> previously ground mystery meat.
>>
>>> The excuse for using water is that electric grinders heat up the meat.
>>
>> Bullshit.
>>
>> Only the motor heats, not the grinder. Ice is typically added to the
>> mixture when grinding sausage meat *at home*, keeps the extra fatty
>> meat from smearing is all... usually for home grinding with smaller
>> machines. Ice is not added to commercially sold ground beef in the
>> US, by law nothing can be added to "ground beef". Large commercial
>> grinders don't smear. Adding water will make any size machine smear,
>> it's just not done. If water is added (to cheat on weight) it would
>> be mixed into already ground meat.... no shop in the US is going to
>> risk getting shut down by adding water, they have plenty of fercocktah
>> scraps they can add legally, and they do.
>
>So the laws of physics are different in your mind? When you do work on
>something such as by grinding there is friction which raises the
>temperature. It is a pretty basic concept.
>
>One of the most basic requirements for a meat processor is they must
>have temperature control of the meat during grinding and the government
>specifically requires that ice is added to remove heat due to the very
>well known idea that friction creates heat.

George obviously doesn't own a grinder nor has he ever used a grinder.

NO ice is added, the USDA forbids adding ice, water, or anything to
ground meat unless it's labeled sausage or some such meat *product*.

You obviously failed grade school science. Friction is not the only
way to generate heat (there are four ways)... with grinding meat heat
is very unlikely to be generated by friction, heat is more likely to
be generated by *pressure* (by attempting to pass meat through too
narrow a grinder body), but so long as meat continues to exit the
grinder there is no pressure excessive enough to raise the temperature
of the meat passing through at that moment... and that the meat keeps
moving and exiting the grinder then no meat is in the grinder long
enough to heat. With cold meat, cold grinders, in a cold space, and
little friction, with moving meat the meat can't heat.... if anything
the longer a grinder is operated with chilled meat passing through the
colder the grinder becomes... in physics cold is the natural state of
mass not heat. If the room temperature is excessive then that can
raise the temperature of the meat before it enters the grinder and
after it exits the grinder but the grinder itself will have no
appreciable affect on meat temperature... that's why meat facilities,
operate inside a refrigerated space... especially where meat grinding
is carried out... once meat is ground is when the danger timer begins,
it really needs to be frozen or cooked immediately. That ground meat
is placed in the store cooler and left for days, and that people carry
it home unrefrigerated makes it garbage, literally.

The only way a grinder can excessively heat meat is if the grinder
fails (parts break), jams (due to a solid blockage - bone, cracked
blade/plate?) and no meat is exiting while the auger is still
rotating... pretty simple to notice and correct... even a dunder head
like George would notice how the machine is running but nothing is
coming out... his mommy would holler "Don't just stand there with your
finger up your ass, shut off the ****ing machine, asshole!" With a
properly operating grinder, used in a correct manner, the temperature
of meat passing through does not rise in any appreciable way... that's
why grinders are designed totally isolated from their motors. The
temperature of meat does not rise because of grinding per se....
what's important is how meat is handled AFTER it leaves the grinder,
which is another reason to grind ones own meat oneself... one needs to
control what enters and what exits. Now go sit in the corner and face
the wall, GEORGE DUNCE!

>> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
>> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz wrote:

> You obviously failed grade school science. Friction is not the only
> way to generate heat (there are four ways)

You quoted George's message in its entirety. Nowhere in it did George say
that friction is the ONLY way to generate heat. Did the voices in your head
tell you that he did?

Bob

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz blathered:

> NO ice is added, the USDA forbids adding ice, water, or anything to
> ground meat unless it's labeled sausage or some such meat *product*.

Oddly enough, a search of www.usda.gov does not support your contention. You
heard it from the voices in your head, didn't you?

Bob

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On 7/11/2010 8:47 AM, Bob Terwilliger wrote:
> Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz wrote:
>
>> You obviously failed grade school science. Friction is not the only
>> way to generate heat (there are four ways)
>
> You quoted George's message in its entirety. Nowhere in it did George say
> that friction is the ONLY way to generate heat. Did the voices in your head
> tell you that he did?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
You caught that too?

And of course there is the implied declaration that he his omniscient
because even though someone knows they witnessed something he simply
knows everything so it can't be true.

The plant where I saw this has a USDA inspector on site.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On 2010-07-11, brooklyn1 > wrote:

> enough to heat. With cold meat, cold grinders, in a cold space, and
> little friction.......

Mostly accurate.

When we used to put up 600-700lbs of cold smoked sausage in Winter,
the pre-chunked meat coming out of the walk-ins was so cold we had to
take breaks from hand mixing the pork and beef to keep our hands from
losing all feeling. The grinder, about the size of a VW Rabbit, moved
this chilled meat so quickly, there was little time for heating. The
ground meat was still somewhat chilled when pushed into natural
casings from a 100lb hydraulic stuffer, it having come up a bit in
temp from being in left at room temperature (our workspace) after
grinding and being under extreme pressure in the stuffer. But still,
not an ice cube in sight during the whole process.

nb

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Jul 11, 5:31*am, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> George Dunce wrote:

brooklyn's argument style interestingly includes self-sabotage. I
wonder why:

>
> >So the laws of physics are different in your mind? When you do work on
> >something such as by grinding there is friction which raises the
> >temperature. It is a pretty basic concept.
>
> >One of the most basic requirements for a meat processor is they must
> >have temperature control of the meat during grinding and the government
> >specifically requires that ice is added to remove heat due to the very
> >well known idea that friction creates heat.
>
> George obviously doesn't own a grinder nor has he ever used a grinder.

At this point I don't know who to believe. Hyperbole seldom persuades
me -- in fact it makes me suspicious of the user.

> NO ice is added, the USDA forbids adding ice, water, or anything to
> ground meat unless it's labeled sausage or some such meat *product*.
>
> You obviously failed grade school science. *Friction is not the only
> way to generate heat (there are four ways)... with grinding meat heat
> is very unlikely to be generated by friction, heat is more likely to
> be generated by *pressure* (by attempting to pass meat through too
> narrow a grinder body),

More hyperbole (failed grade school science) plus some misdirection
(nonfriction ways a grinder heats meat), and actually a concession
(that grinding heats the meat).

> but so long as meat continues to exit the
> grinder there is no pressure excessive enough to raise the temperature
> of the meat passing through at that moment... and that the meat keeps
> moving and exiting the grinder then no meat is in the grinder long
> enough to heat. *With cold meat, cold grinders, in a cold space, and
> little friction, with moving meat the meat can't heat.... if anything
> the longer a grinder is operated with chilled meat passing through the
> colder the grinder becomes... in physics cold is the natural state of
> mass not heat. *If the room temperature is excessive then that can
> raise the temperature of the meat before it enters the grinder and
> after it exits the grinder but the grinder itself will have no
> appreciable affect on meat temperature...

Right there, brooklyn destroys his argument as readers realize he's
blatantly full of shit -- grinding meat raises its temperature. The
laws of physics are not suspended when it comes to grinding meat.
Let's see what a known authoritative source has to say:

Ground Meat Production
Whenever possible grind only what is required in the next few hours.
Grind meat in areas where the room temperature is not more than 10°C
or
whenever possible 4°C or colder. Particular attention should be
devoted to
keeping ground meat at 4°C or less as the temperature of the meat will
rise during grinding due to heat generated from friction. A grinding
log
can be used to document the source of meat ingredients as well as
other
aspects of food safety and quality (for sample see appendix II).

http://www.canadianbeef.info/pdf/safety.pdf

That scream you hear is brooklyn's credibility going down in flames.

> that's why meat facilities,
> operate inside a refrigerated space... especially where meat grinding
> is carried out... once meat is ground is when the danger timer begins,
> it really needs to be frozen or cooked immediately. *That ground meat
> is placed in the store cooler and left for days, and that people carry
> it home unrefrigerated makes it garbage, literally.

This is all true, but peripheral to the point borrklyn wanted to make

>
> The only way a grinder can excessively heat meat is if the grinder
> fails (parts break), jams (due to a solid blockage - bone, cracked
> blade/plate?) and no meat is exiting while the auger is still
> rotating... pretty simple to notice and correct...

Pretty simple to notice brookline just moved the goal posts here by
inserting the word "excessively" in front of "heat meat," further
destroying his argument.

> even a dunder head
> like George would notice how the machine is running but nothing is
> coming out... his mommy would holler "Don't just stand there with your
> finger up your ass, shut off the ****ing machine, asshole!" *With a
> properly operating grinder, used in a correct manner, the temperature
> of meat passing through does not rise in any appreciable way... that's
> why grinders are designed totally isolated from their motors. *The
> temperature of meat does not rise because of grinding per se....

I got dizzy watching the goalposts go back and forth, but finally
brokeline went back to his original ridiculous claim.

> what's important is how meat is handled AFTER it leaves the grinder,
> which is another reason to grind ones own meat oneself... one needs to
> control what enters and what exits. *

All true, but so what?


> Now go sit in the corner and face
> the wall, GEORGE DUNCE!
>

Borklyn, heal thyself.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:34:06 -0700, Mark Thorson >
> wrote:
>
> >brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>
> >> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
> >> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
> >
> >Even if they're vegetarian?
>
> Unless you're a deer or a cow there's no such thing as a vegetarian...
> every vegetarian I've ever met eats meat... chicken and fish are meat.

You think a person who only eats chicken and fish
needs a meat grinder?

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Jul 11, 5:06*am, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:16:27 +0200, (Victor Sack)
> wrote:
>
> >Roy > wrote:
>
> >> I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
> >> matter the source of the supply.
>
> >Why? *The inside of a piece of intact muscle meat is sterile, so, to get
> >rid of any bacteria on the outside you just have to rinse it. *This
> >freshly-rinsed piece of meat, once freshly-minced/ground - ideally by
> >yourself - is basically safe - if it is consumed at once, whether cooked
> >or not.
>
> >Victor * *
>
> You're attempting to educate this new bunch of the most ignorant
> kitchen kooks to have come down the pike in years.... LOL

==
Rinsing meat to remove the E Coli...hmmm. Go talk to the medical
doctors and check to see if this is an effective remedy for removing
the risk of eating raw meat. Unless you have the digestive system of a
hyena, you are at risk.
==

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:34:06 -0700, Mark Thorson >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >brooklyn1 wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
>> >> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
>> >
>> >Even if they're vegetarian?
>>
>> Unless you're a deer or a cow there's no such thing as a vegetarian...
>> every vegetarian I've ever met eats meat... chicken and fish are meat.
>
> You think a person who only eats chicken and fish
> needs a meat grinder?


That's not what he said. He said people who claim to be vegetarian usually
eat chicken and fish. Sort of belies the claim, don't you think?

Jill

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"Mark Thorson" wrote
> brooklyn1 wrote:

>> >> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
>> >> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.

Sheldon refers to meat eaters. I disagree that you *cant* be a good cook
without a grinder, but suspect many of us here do indeed have one. Mine's a
simple manual unit.

>> >Even if they're vegetarian?
>>
>> Unless you're a deer or a cow there's no such thing as a vegetarian...
>> every vegetarian I've ever met eats meat... chicken and fish are meat.

Sheldon seems a bit confused. Anyone who eats either chicken or seafood,
isnt a vegetarian, though I've seen a few try to claim it while eating
seafood.

> You think a person who only eats chicken and fish
> needs a meat grinder?

I don't but then, it could be handy with chicken at times. Not of use with
fish (grin). There are 'ground type fish recipes' but the preparation of
the fish to 'fish paste' isn't done the same way normally. A food processor
would be more the item to use.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:00:39 -0400, brooklyn1 wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:34:06 -0700, Mark Thorson >
> wrote:
>
>>brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>
>>> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
>>> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
>>
>>Even if they're vegetarian?
>
> Unless you're a deer or a cow there's no such thing as a vegetarian...
> every vegetarian I've ever met eats meat... chicken and fish are meat.
> I had a neighbor who swore they were strict vegetarians, one day I
> spotted them parked by a distant Burger King hunkered down in the seat
> munching big drippy Whoppers. BTW, even deer eat meat, I've tossed
> fatty chicken trimmings out into the yard for the crows but the deer
> got to it first... when it's -20ºF and three feet of snow deer will
> eat meat.

why is it that you seem to be continuously surrounded by liars and cheats?

blake

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"Roy" wrote
Victor wrote:

> >> I would NEVER eat ground beef rare...the risk is just too great no
> >> matter the source of the supply.

> >Why? The inside of a piece of intact muscle meat is sterile, so, to get
> >rid of any bacteria on the outside you just have to rinse it. This
> >freshly-rinsed piece of meat, once freshly-minced/ground - ideally by
> >yourself - is basically safe - if it is consumed at once, whether cooked
> >or not.
>
> >Victor

Victor is correct, although it's not just a fast swish in water. We do this
fairly routinely as there have been too many problems with pre-ground meat.

We clean the sink and all prep tools completely then there are 2 versions
depending on what we feel like.

1- Partly freeze the meat just to make it easier, then cut off a thin bit of
all the exterior layer (save for something else, as it's fine just not good
for raw beef eating). Grind rest having washed all tools and cutting board
again. This is fast and easy and probably what we do most of the time.
This one is suitable for raw meat eating though we won't do that after a few
hours of it in the fridge. More like a little noshe of beef tartar.

2- Using clean large stock pot, fill with 4 gallons water and 1/2 ts bleach.
Let meat soak for about 2-3 mins, turning it about, then rinse thoughly.
This method is used when we froze a whole hunk of beef without prepping it
as in #1 and defrosted it then decided we wanted to grind it. This is
suitable for fairly rare hamburgers from the ground meat. It's not a strong
enough solution or long enough to damage the flavor and in fact this is the
bleach amount to add to purify water when you can't boil it.

I think Sheldon mentioned method 2? I looked it up and yes, he's right (if
it was him).

We often pre-prep the meat with a partial freeze as in #1 then freeze it for
later use in grinding if desired, marking the bags with 'cleaned' so we know
we don't have to bother if we decide to grind it later and have a little raw
beef.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"notbob" > wrote in message
...
>I want to make a good ...no, GREAT!... hamburger. I know the meat is
> all, so I'm looking for opinions. What makes a great hamburger patty?
>
> I recently bought ground sirloin (4% fat). Tough as nails. So tough,
> in fact, it didn't even work as sloppy joes and the dog feasted. That
> prepackaged crap in the sausage-shaped tubes is also out. Shelly says
> sirloin and chuck, in what ratio I don't recall, but I want no more of
> that sirloin boot heel stuff. Round? Chuck? A blend? What? I'm
> hitting an actual butcher shop today and will order whatever I choose
> ground on the spot. It will be grilled over charcoal. What say ye
> serious burger freaks?
>
Kirkland Signature Ground Sirloin and Loin of Beef hamburger patties from
Costco. 85% lean/15% fat.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On 2010-07-11, cshenk > wrote:

> Victor is correct......

As usual, only partially. Prions, the villians in mad cow disease and
other TSEs, are throughout the meat and can't be destroyed by heat or
any other known sterilation methods.

nb

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"notbob" wrote
> cshenk wrote:

>> Victor is correct......

> As usual, only partially. Prions, the villians in mad cow disease and
> other TSEs, are throughout the meat and can't be destroyed by heat or
> any other known sterilation methods.

So go vegetarian as all beef must be bad? He was talking grinding meat, not
eating brains ;-)

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

notbob wrote:
> On 2010-07-11, cshenk > wrote:
>
>> Victor is correct......
>
> As usual, only partially. Prions, the villians in mad cow disease and
> other TSEs, are throughout the meat and can't be destroyed by heat or
> any other known sterilation methods.
>
> nb


What I have read agrees with this. And the outside of ground beef
isn't much "dirtier" than the inside. The person grinding the meat
handles it (sometimes with gloves) then it all comes into contact with
the inside of the grinder where it gets slightly twisted as it
progresses through. As it comes out, it is "received" on a large tray
before going into the packaging or bulk sale tray. Any bacteria that
was on the outside of the meat is spread throughout in the process.
And prions aren't destroyed even by autoclaving.

We may all have BSE in 30 years or we may have adapted to escape its
threat.

gloria p

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On 2010-07-11, cshenk > wrote:

MUST ...HAVE ....BRAINS!!!

nb

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:22:08 -0400, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:00:39 -0400, brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:34:06 -0700, Mark Thorson >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
>>>> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
>>>
>>>Even if they're vegetarian?
>>
>> Unless you're a deer or a cow there's no such thing as a vegetarian...
>> every vegetarian I've ever met eats meat... chicken and fish are meat.
>> I had a neighbor who swore they were strict vegetarians, one day I
>> spotted them parked by a distant Burger King hunkered down in the seat
>> munching big drippy Whoppers. BTW, even deer eat meat, I've tossed
>> fatty chicken trimmings out into the yard for the crows but the deer
>> got to it first... when it's -20ºF and three feet of snow deer will
>> eat meat.
>
>why is it that you seem to be continuously surrounded by liars and cheats?

So are you... you're just too comatose to realize it... if you could
get up off your ass every so often the blood in your pea brain would
circulate some and you may not be so comatose... that's right, you sit
on your brain all day, mick.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:10:08 -0400, "cshenk" > wrote:

> I disagree that you *cant* be a good cook
> without a grinder, but suspect many of us here do indeed have one. Mine's a
> simple manual unit.

My meat grinder is simple too. It's called "teeth". ;)

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 19:03:24 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
> wrote:

> On Sun 11 Jul 2010 10:10:08a, cshenk told us...
>
> > "Mark Thorson" wrote
> >> brooklyn1 wrote:
> >
> >>> >> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent
> >>> >> meat grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
> >
> > Sheldon refers to meat eaters. I disagree that you *cant* be a
> > good cook without a grinder, but suspect many of us here do indeed
> > have one. Mine's a simple manual unit.
> >
> >>> >Even if they're vegetarian?
> >>>
> >>> Unless you're a deer or a cow there's no such thing as a
> >>> vegetarian... every vegetarian I've ever met eats meat...
> >>> chicken and fish are meat.
> >
> > Sheldon seems a bit confused. Anyone who eats either chicken or
> > seafood, isnt a vegetarian, though I've seen a few try to claim it
> > while eating seafood.
>
> <snip>
>
> One thing that many people don't realize or understand is that there
> are different types of vegetarians. Each individual vegetarian has
> his or her own personal reasons for choosing their diet, and these
> reasons determine exactly what foods they eliminate.
>
> Total Vegetarians eat only plant food. They do not eat any animal
> foods, including fish, eggs, dairy products, and honey.
>
> Vegans not only omit all animal products from their diets, but they
> also eliminate them from the rest of their life.
>
> Vegans use nothing from animals, such as leather, wool, and silk.
>
> Lacto-Vegetarians will include dairy products into their diet of
> plant food.
>
> Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians eat both eggs and dairy products.
>
> Pesco-Vegetarians include fish into their diets.
>
> Pollo-Vegetarians eat poultry, such as chicken, turkey, and duck.
>

The world of vegetarianism is mighty complicated!

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On 2010-07-11, sf > wrote:

>> Vegans use nothing from animals, such as leather, wool, and silk.

That's just plain stupid.

>> Lacto-Vegetarians will include dairy products into their diet of
>> plant food.
>>
>> Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians eat both eggs and dairy products.
>>
>> Pesco-Vegetarians include fish into their diets.
>>
>> Pollo-Vegetarians eat poultry, such as chicken, turkey, and duck.

These can all be lumped together as moro-vegetarians.

OTOH, more slaughtered herd animals for me!

nb

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

"Wayne Boatwright" wrote
> cshenk told us...

>> Sheldon seems a bit confused. Anyone who eats either chicken or
>> seafood, isnt a vegetarian, though I've seen a few try to claim it
>> while eating seafood.

> One thing that many people don't realize or understand is that there
> are different types of vegetarians. Each individual vegetarian has

Wayne, you arent dumb.

> Pesco-Vegetarians include fish into their diets.
>
> Pollo-Vegetarians eat poultry, such as chicken, turkey, and duck.

Those aren't vegetarians. Those are affective titles for wanna-bees. Cute
but senseless. The fish type have the same problems catholics do when they
decided meat wasnt allowed on Friday so passed some rule that fish isnt
meat. As it if didnt come from the Animalia side of the house but was a
plant.

WANTED: killer hamburger meat
 

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 15:30:03 -0700 (PDT), Roy >
wrote:

>> >The excuse for using water is that electric grinders heat up the meat.
>>
>> Bullshit.
>>
>> Only the motor heats, not the grinder. *Ice is typically added to the
>> mixture when grinding sausage meat *at home*, keeps the extra fatty
>> meat from smearing is all... usually for home grinding with smaller
>> machines. *Ice is not added to commercially sold ground beef in the
>> US, by law nothing can be added to "ground beef". *Large commercial
>> grinders don't smear. *Adding water will make any size machine smear,
>> it's just not done. *If water is added (to cheat on weight) it would
>> be mixed into already ground meat.... no shop in the US is going to
>> risk getting shut down by adding water, they have plenty of fercocktah
>> scraps they can add legally, and they do.
>>
>> Everyone who fancies themself a home cook must own a decent meat
>> grinder and use it... otherwise they are a fraud.
>
>==
>You are so full of shit. I worked for a major supermarket by the same
>of S****** many moons ago and every one of the stores that I worked in
>added ice to their burger. It gives a nice red "bloom" to the meat and
>makes the burger easier to "tray" as well as it is cooler, not as
>sticky and looks great.

Of course he's full of shit again. I saw a show on TV about how hot
dogs are made. I was amazed by the amount of ice used. I would
assume more than ground beef even because it's such a fine texture.

Lou

If anyone wanted to have a killer hamburger meat. Why don't you try to make your own homemade patty with a pure grounded beef mix with diced onions and garlic. I can definitely assure that your stomach will be satisfied.