<http://www.slate.com/id/2240688/?wpisrc=eDialog>

frankly, i'll keep taking my multivitamin, b-12, and calcium supplements
because my diet it not as varied as it should be. plus i plain don't eat
enough. (the doc also noted depressed calcium levels in the blood at one
time.)

but i thought it might be of some interest here.

your pal,
blake

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> <http://www.slate.com/id/2240688/?wpisrc=eDialog>
>
> frankly, i'll keep taking my multivitamin, b-12, and calcium supplements
> because my diet it not as varied as it should be. plus i plain don't eat
> enough. (the doc also noted depressed calcium levels in the blood at one
> time.)
>
> but i thought it might be of some interest here.
>
> your pal,
> blake

They can work, if you get the right combo.

I once paid for a consult with an MD that specialized in nutritional
therapy and he also did Homeopathy. He taught me that the leg cramps
I'd been trying to treat with Calcium supplements kept happening because
I was taking Calcium tablets. It has to be balanced with Phosphorous and
Magnesium for it to be utilized properly.

I now take "Now" brand full spectrum minerals and Solgar VM-75 on his
recommendation, along with extra Vitamin E, C, A&D, B-12, Folic Acid,
Iron, Biotin, Magnesium (because I have a problem with low serum levels
of Mag'), and a trace mineral supplement (Nature's plus).

And I do feel that they help, especially if one is on a diet so not
eating much food.

I always take them right after a meal along with my thyroid Rx etc.

And I never get leg cramps any more. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

blake murphy wrote:
>
> <http://www.slate.com/id/2240688/?wpisrc=eDialog>
>
> frankly, i'll keep taking my multivitamin, b-12, and calcium supplements
> because my diet it not as varied as it should be. plus i plain don't eat
> enough. (the doc also noted depressed calcium levels in the blood at one
> time.)
>
> but i thought it might be of some interest here.

If you're just taking generic supplements, no problem.
If you're taking some fancy supplement with herbs
and coral calcium and acai berries, you're overspending
on hype and marketing image. There is no benefit to
taking a branded supplement over a generic supplement.

I would not take an iron supplement without knowing
my hemochromatosis status, because that could be very
harmful. Hemochromatosis is the accumulation of iron
which is very destructive to some organ systems.

I'd never take a supplement with copper in it, unless
I've been diagnosed with a copper deficiency. There
seems to be evidence for a link between Alzheimer's
disease and copper.

If I could get a multivitamin supplement without B-12
in it, I'd take that and take the B-12 separately.
Unfortunately, nobody makes a supplement like that.
The reason is because thiamine and some minerals can
convert B-12 into forms that are not nutritionally
active and may block the active form. B-12 deficiency
can result from old age, because the incredibly complex
mechanism of B-12 absorption can decline in effectiveness.
Fortunately, a single injection of B-12 is good for years
(the excess is stored in the liver).

I've stopped taking a separate vitamin E supplement
after noticing it was responsible for tiny hemorrhages
in the skin next to my fingernails. They appear as
tiny black lines parallel to the direction of growth
of the fingernail. When I stopped taking vitamin E
megadoses, the black lines went away. I still get
100% of the USRDA for vitamin E from my multivitamin.

Today, I only take a multivitamin, 1000 mg vitamin C,
and a calcium/magnesium/zinc supplement.

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:30:37 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>>
>> <http://www.slate.com/id/2240688/?wpisrc=eDialog>
>>
>> frankly, i'll keep taking my multivitamin, b-12, and calcium supplements
>> because my diet it not as varied as it should be. plus i plain don't eat
>> enough. (the doc also noted depressed calcium levels in the blood at one
>> time.)
>>
>> but i thought it might be of some interest here.
>
> If you're just taking generic supplements, no problem.
> If you're taking some fancy supplement with herbs
> and coral calcium and acai berries, you're overspending
> on hype and marketing image. There is no benefit to
> taking a branded supplement over a generic supplement.
>

i am curious about one thing, though: almost all vitamins i see instruct
to 'take with meals.' if they are *not* taken with meals, how much less
effective are they? and what is the mechanism?

the only thing i can think of is that if they are with the food, the trip
through the large intestine (where i understand vitamins are absorbed) is
slowed.

i asked my doc, and all he said was 'yes, they're better with meals, but
you should take them in any case.'

your pal,
blake

On Jan 11, 8:56*am, blake murphy > wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:30:37 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:
> > blake murphy wrote:
>
> >> <http://www.slate.com/id/2240688/?wpisrc=eDialog>
>
> >> frankly, i'll keep taking my multivitamin, b-12, and calcium supplements
> >> because my diet it not as varied as it should be. *plus i plain don't eat
> >> enough. *(the doc also noted depressed calcium levels in the blood at one
> >> time.)
>
> >> but i thought it might be of some interest here.
>
> > If you're just taking generic supplements, no problem.
> > If you're taking some fancy supplement with herbs
> > and coral calcium and acai berries, you're overspending
> > on hype and marketing image. *There is no benefit to
> > taking a branded supplement over a generic supplement.
>
> i am curious about one thing, though: *almost all vitamins i see instruct
> to 'take with meals.' *if they are *not* taken with meals, how much less
> effective are they? *and what is the mechanism?
>
> the only thing i can think of is that if they are with the food, the trip
> through the large intestine (where i understand vitamins are absorbed) is
> slowed.
>
> i asked my doc, and all he said was 'yes, they're better with meals, but
> you should take them in any case.'
>
> your pal,
> blake

A lot of people get upset stomach or nausea if they take vitamins
without food.

I think supplements are exactly that....supplements to the diet.
First you need to eat right.....lots of fresh vegetables and
protein.
The supplements fill in the gaps.

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:03:15 -0800 (PST), ImStillMags wrote:

> On Jan 11, 8:56*am, blake murphy > wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:30:37 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:
>>> blake murphy wrote:
>>
>>>> <http://www.slate.com/id/2240688/?wpisrc=eDialog>
>>
>>>> frankly, i'll keep taking my multivitamin, b-12, and calcium supplements
>>>> because my diet it not as varied as it should be. *plus i plain don't eat
>>>> enough. *(the doc also noted depressed calcium levels in the blood at one
>>>> time.)
>>
>>>> but i thought it might be of some interest here.
>>
>>> If you're just taking generic supplements, no problem.
>>> If you're taking some fancy supplement with herbs
>>> and coral calcium and acai berries, you're overspending
>>> on hype and marketing image. *There is no benefit to
>>> taking a branded supplement over a generic supplement.
>>
>> i am curious about one thing, though: *almost all vitamins i see instruct
>> to 'take with meals.' *if they are *not* taken with meals, how much less
>> effective are they? *and what is the mechanism?
>>
>> the only thing i can think of is that if they are with the food, the trip
>> through the large intestine (where i understand vitamins are absorbed) is
>> slowed.
>>
>> i asked my doc, and all he said was 'yes, they're better with meals, but
>> you should take them in any case.'
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> A lot of people get upset stomach or nausea if they take vitamins
> without food.
>
> I think supplements are exactly that....supplements to the diet.
> First you need to eat right.....lots of fresh vegetables and
> protein.
> The supplements fill in the gaps.

i gotta a lot of gaps.

your pal,
blake

blake murphy wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:03:15 -0800 (PST), ImStillMags wrote:
>
> > The supplements fill in the gaps.
>
> i gotta a lot of gaps.

There's a large industry based on convincing you that
you have gaps that don't exist. Did you get the recommended
daily allowance of ginseng, curcumin, and garlic today?
Do you have a coral calcium deficiency? These people are all
nutritional charlatans.

Get your RDA of vitamins and certain minerals every day
from a cheap generic supplement, and you'll be okay
(unless you have some special medical condition).
Some minerals like copper, chromium, and selenium
are mostly a sales gimmick for supplements and should
not be supplemented unless you have a diagnosis of a
deficiency. If you see some herbs or weird berries
or gimmick minerals listed on the label of a supplement,
it should be viewed with suspicion -- likely overpriced
and possibly hazardous.

Most Americans eat way more protein than they need,
so you shouldn't worry about amino acid deficiencies,
unless you're a vegan or have certain rare metabolic
disorders.

The conditions affecting nutrition which are common
enough to be a cause of concern for most normal people
a a) hemochromatosis -- these people must never take
a supplement with iron, and b) vitamin B-12 deficiency
which often develops in old age -- easily treated every
couple of years or so with a B-12 shot. One special
additional case is pregnant women, who should take extra
folic acid because of its importance in preventing birth
defects.

An interesting issue is that there has been resistance from
the FDA about allowing folic acid supplements substantially
above the US RDA (as some health-cultists want) because
massive folic acid supplementation can cover up the
symptoms of B-12 deficiency until quite late in the
course of the disease, in which case permanent nervous
system damage has occurred. The health cultists are
probably injecting themselves with B-12 every week or two,
so they won't be affected, but there are old people who
would be prescribed megadose folic acid by their chiropractor,
homeopath, or some other quack not-a-doctor, which would meet
with initial success in reducing symptoms of B-12 deficiency
but would not treat the underlying problem. In so doing,
the problem would get much worse before being detected.
Medical quackery causes an awful lot of harm by delaying
treatment.

Andy wrote:
>
> The most important point that folks constantly fail to realize is that
> synthetic vitamins are useless.

How does your body know whether a molecule of vitamin C
was made by a plant or in a factory? They both have
all of the same atoms in all of the same place.

Andy wrote:

> Mark Thorson > wrote:
> > Andy wrote:
>
> >> The most important point that folks constantly fail to realize is that
> >> synthetic vitamins are useless.
>
> > How does your body know whether a molecule of vitamin C
> > was made by a plant or in a factory? *They both have
> > all of the same atoms in all of the same place.


Okay, Einstein...


> Here's the problem Mark. How accurate is synthetic?
>
> You can take a grain of salt or a Sears grain of salt.
>


Is that why U R such a "brain", Andy...???

:-P


--
Best
Greg

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:05:28 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:03:15 -0800 (PST), ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>>> The supplements fill in the gaps.
>>
>> i gotta a lot of gaps.
>
> There's a large industry based on convincing you that
> you have gaps that don't exist. Did you get the recommended
> daily allowance of ginseng, curcumin, and garlic today?
> Do you have a coral calcium deficiency? These people are all
> nutritional charlatans.
>
> Get your RDA of vitamins and certain minerals every day
> from a cheap generic supplement, and you'll be okay
> (unless you have some special medical condition).
> Some minerals like copper, chromium, and selenium
> are mostly a sales gimmick for supplements and should
> not be supplemented unless you have a diagnosis of a
> deficiency. If you see some herbs or weird berries
> or gimmick minerals listed on the label of a supplement,
> it should be viewed with suspicion -- likely overpriced
> and possibly hazardous.
>
> Most Americans eat way more protein than they need,
> so you shouldn't worry about amino acid deficiencies,
> unless you're a vegan or have certain rare metabolic
> disorders.
>
> The conditions affecting nutrition which are common
> enough to be a cause of concern for most normal people
> a a) hemochromatosis -- these people must never take
> a supplement with iron, and b) vitamin B-12 deficiency
> which often develops in old age -- easily treated every
> couple of years or so with a B-12 shot. One special
> additional case is pregnant women, who should take extra
> folic acid because of its importance in preventing birth
> defects.
>
> An interesting issue is that there has been resistance from
> the FDA about allowing folic acid supplements substantially
> above the US RDA (as some health-cultists want) because
> massive folic acid supplementation can cover up the
> symptoms of B-12 deficiency until quite late in the
> course of the disease, in which case permanent nervous
> system damage has occurred. The health cultists are
> probably injecting themselves with B-12 every week or two,
> so they won't be affected, but there are old people who
> would be prescribed megadose folic acid by their chiropractor,
> homeopath, or some other quack not-a-doctor, which would meet
> with initial success in reducing symptoms of B-12 deficiency
> but would not treat the underlying problem. In so doing,
> the problem would get much worse before being detected.
> Medical quackery causes an awful lot of harm by delaying
> treatment.

i mostly agree with what you're saying. the (fairly cheap) multivitamin is
because i don't eat a variety of foods every day, b-12 because there are
liver issues and calcium due to bone issues.

but mostly because the doc said to, and i try to keep him placated short of
stopping smoking and drinking.

your pal,
blake

Mark Thorson wrote:
> Andy wrote:
>>
>> The most important point that folks constantly fail to realize is that
>> synthetic vitamins are useless.
>
> How does your body know whether a molecule of vitamin C
> was made by a plant or in a factory? They both have
> all of the same atoms in all of the same place.

True for vitamin C because it does not have left and right isomers.

Vitamin E does have right and left isomers so it matters for E.
Synthetic E is both isomers mixed; natural E is all the correct isomer.
As far as I know all this means is the natural E is twice as potent.

Are supplements necessary? Not if you believe the listed nutrients and
eat a wide variety of foods. The trouble is with modern farming methods
minerals are used to push harvest not to make the product the most
nutitious, and selective breeding is for harvest not for vitamin
content. I see vitamins as a belt and suspenders approach to
micronutrients.

How good you want your vitamins to be and how much you want to pay for
them is a matter of tastes. The best supplements are far more expensive
than cheapest and the difference in quality is only poorly correlated
with the difference in price. At some point better quality stops
mattering but higher price supplements that are better than that are to
be found on the market. Make your judgment and look at prices.

My supplement plan has evolved over the years. I've tried very
expensive MLM ones and found they have better absorbtion. I've tried
very cheap ones and found they sometimes don't digest. Most of the time
I end up looking for a generic equivalent of one of the better name
brands.

I like to take a good multi, plus separate ones for the nutrients that
don't fit in a single tablet, plus some specific items based on family
history with a view towards prevention.

What's a good multi is a matter of tastes. Centrum, Theragram-M, GNC
Ultra. Whichever one I can find of generic version of or some years the
name brand one. Plus C, a calcium of some formula, and potassium. I
use Lite Salt at the table rather than potassium tablets. I target
cal/mag/zinc/copper in a balanced ratio with D but price matters so I
usually end up with cal/mag-D. I also take baby aspirin because I'm
over 40, pantethine and B6 based on medical events in my Dad's life in
an attempt to prevent those from happening to me.

Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
> > Andy wrote:
> >>
> >> The most important point that folks constantly fail to realize is that
> >> synthetic vitamins are useless.
> >
> > How does your body know whether a molecule of vitamin C
> > was made by a plant or in a factory? They both have
> > all of the same atoms in all of the same place.
>
> True for vitamin C because it does not have left and right isomers.

It does have left and right isomers, but the manufacturing
process makes the bioidentical form.

> Vitamin E does have right and left isomers so it matters for E.
> Synthetic E is both isomers mixed; natural E is all the correct isomer.
> As far as I know all this means is the natural E is twice as potent.

No, both isomers have vitamin E activity, but the bioidentical
isomer has more activity. The non-bioidentical form still has
considerable nutritional nutritional activity.

> How good you want your vitamins to be and how much you want to pay for
> them is a matter of tastes. The best supplements are far more expensive
> than cheapest and the difference in quality is only poorly correlated
> with the difference in price. At some point better quality stops
> mattering but higher price supplements that are better than that are to
> be found on the market. Make your judgment and look at prices.

About half a dozen companies make nearly all of the
vitamin raw materials. The difference in pricing
is mostly marketing and hype.

Gregory Morrow wrote:
> Andy wrote:
>
>> Mark Thorson > wrote:
>>> Andy wrote:
>>
>>>> The most important point that folks constantly fail to realize is
>>>> that synthetic vitamins are useless.
>>
>>> How does your body know whether a molecule of vitamin C
>>> was made by a plant or in a factory? They both have
>>> all of the same atoms in all of the same place.
>
>
> Okay, Einstein...
>
>
>> Here's the problem Mark. How accurate is synthetic?
>>
>> You can take a grain of salt or a Sears grain of salt.
>>
>
>
> Is that why U R such a "brain", Andy...???

The notion that synthetic molecules are somehow "different" from "natural"
molecules with the same structure is snake oil of the same sort that induces
audiophiles to pay 10 bucks a foot for "THX Certified" zip cord.

"J. Clarke" > wrote in message
...
> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>> Andy wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Thorson > wrote:
>>>> Andy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The most important point that folks constantly fail to realize is
>>>>> that synthetic vitamins are useless.
>>>
>>>> How does your body know whether a molecule of vitamin C
>>>> was made by a plant or in a factory? They both have
>>>> all of the same atoms in all of the same place.
>>
>>
>> Okay, Einstein...
>>
>>
>>> Here's the problem Mark. How accurate is synthetic?
>>>
>>> You can take a grain of salt or a Sears grain of salt.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Is that why U R such a "brain", Andy...???
>
> The notion that synthetic molecules are somehow "different" from "natural"
> molecules with the same structure is snake oil of the same sort that
> induces
> audiophiles to pay 10 bucks a foot for "THX Certified" zip cord.
>
Prostate cancer? Or maybe heart disease.

cybercat wrote:
> "J. Clarke" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>>> Andy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mark Thorson > wrote:
>>>>> Andy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> The most important point that folks constantly fail to realize is
>>>>>> that synthetic vitamins are useless.
>>>>
>>>>> How does your body know whether a molecule of vitamin C
>>>>> was made by a plant or in a factory? They both have
>>>>> all of the same atoms in all of the same place.
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, Einstein...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Here's the problem Mark. How accurate is synthetic?
>>>>
>>>> You can take a grain of salt or a Sears grain of salt.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is that why U R such a "brain", Andy...???
>>
>> The notion that synthetic molecules are somehow "different" from
>> "natural" molecules with the same structure is snake oil of the same
>> sort that induces
>> audiophiles to pay 10 bucks a foot for "THX Certified" zip cord.
>>
> Prostate cancer? Or maybe heart disease.

What are you doing, appending phrases at random?

On Jan 10, 12:51*pm, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
> *blake murphy > wrote:
>
> > <http://www.slate.com/id/2240688/?wpisrc=eDialog>
>
> > frankly, i'll keep taking my multivitamin, b-12, and calcium supplements
> > because my diet it not as varied as it should be. *plus i plain don't eat
> > enough. *(the doc also noted depressed calcium levels in the blood at one
> > time.)
>
> > but i thought it might be of some interest here.
>
> > your pal,
> > blake
>
> They can work, if you get the right combo.
>
> I once paid for a consult with an MD that specialized in nutritional
> therapy and he also did Homeopathy. *He taught me that the leg cramps
> I'd been trying to treat with Calcium supplements kept happening because
> I was taking Calcium tablets. It has to be balanced with Phosphorous and
> Magnesium for it to be utilized properly.
>
> I now take "Now" brand full spectrum minerals and Solgar VM-75 on his
> recommendation, along with extra Vitamin E, C, A&D, B-12, Folic Acid,
> Iron, Biotin, Magnesium (because I have a problem with low serum levels
> of Mag'), and a trace mineral supplement (Nature's plus).
>
> And I do feel that they help, especially if one is on a diet so not
> eating much food.
>
> I always take them right after a meal along with my thyroid Rx etc.
>
> And I never get leg cramps any more. :-)

Supplements are one thing. Homeopathy is another. Belief in
homeopathy is like belief in the tooth fairy.

> --
> Peace! Om

--Bryan