Hello All!

I had some venison available so I thought I would try adapting the
Flemish Carbonade recipe (beef braised with lots of onions). There are
many similar recipes but I followed one at
recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/18144/carbonade-de-boeuf.html

It was very good and all I'd like to ask is opinions on herbs in the
dish. I used a little thyme but I've seen anise, bay leaves etc. Anyone
have any strong opinions?


--


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Dec 12, 11:21 am, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> Hello All!
>
> I had some venison available so I thought I would try adapting the
> Flemish Carbonade recipe (beef braised with lots of onions). There are
> many similar recipes but I followed one at
> recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/18144/carbonade-de-boeuf.html
>
> It was very good and all I'd like to ask is opinions on herbs in the
> dish. I used a little thyme but I've seen anise, bay leaves etc. Anyone
> have any strong opinions?
>
Sounds good. Thyme is always good with red meat. Juniper berries are
often used with venison but sometimes I find them too intrusive. I
might have tried allspice and maybe a clove. -aem

James Silverton > wrote:

> I had some venison available so I thought I would try adapting the
> Flemish Carbonade recipe (beef braised with lots of onions). There are
> many similar recipes but I followed one at
> recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/18144/carbonade-de-boeuf.html

I would say that this is not a very good recipe. The reason is, it does
not specify the type of beer, yet calls for 2 cups, a significant
amount. Beer varies very widely, rather more so than even wine, and the
choice of beer will influence the choice and/or amount of other
ingredients. Most recipes calling for wine at least specify red or
white, dry or sweet. With beer, it is at least as important.

The traditional type of beer to use in (and to drink with) carbonade
flamande is _oud bruin_ (old brown), i.e. Flanders brown ale. It is dry
but with sweetish, raisiny, sherryish overtones, and with distinct
tartness. It usually has no discernable bitterness. So, with such a
beer (or one with similar characteristics), with its play of sweet and
sour, addition of sugar might or might not be necessary, as sugar is
usually added to balance the bitterness of beer in such a recipe; adding
some raisins or prunes might be a good idea.

Here is a recipe by Garrett Oliver, who is probably the greatest expert
on matching beer and food right now. The recipe is from his site at
<http://www.garrettoliver.com/article02.html>.

Brewmaster's Carbonade Flamande

Serves 4

2 pounds of good chuck steak, cut into 1" cubes
3 large yellow onions, sliced
22 oz. Belgian-style Dubbel or Flemish Brown Ale
1 oz. Butter
1 oz. Peanut Oil
3 cups beef stock or canned low-salt beef broth
6 fresh thyme sprigs, bound with string, or 1 bouquet garni
2 tablespoons sugar
3 tablespoons all-purpose flour
1 tablespoon tomato puree
1 tablespoon nutmeg
1/2 cup golden raisins
1 large Granny Smith Apple, peeled and sliced into a dozen pieces
salt and pepper

Heat the oil and butter in a large, heavy skillet over high heat. When
the skillet is very hot, add the meat with some salt and pepper,
stirring frequently until well browned on all sides. Using a slotted
spoon, lift the meat from the skillet and set it aside. Turn the heat
down to low, and stir the flour into the remaining fat and cook gently
until smooth and golden. Set the mixture (roux) aside.

To a heavy pot, add the beef, then the onions. Add beef stock, herbs,
nutmeg and sugar. Add beer until the beef is entirely covered. Bring to
a boil, then add tomato puree. Cover and simmer gently for 1 hour.

Remove the beef with a slotted spoon, and set aside. Using a chinoise
or other strainer, strain the sauce into another pot.

Place the beef in the pot with the strained sauce. Add the roux and the
raisins, continue cooking for 1 hour. Add the apple slices, and cook
for a further 10 minutes. Taste and adjust the seasoning.

Serve with mashed potatoes or frites, and a Belgian-style Dubbel.

> It was very good and all I'd like to ask is opinions on herbs in the
> dish. I used a little thyme but I've seen anise, bay leaves etc. Anyone
> have any strong opinions?

Thyme is usual in carbonade flamande.

Victor

On Dec 12, 3:27 pm, (Victor Sack) wrote:
> [snip ingredients and beginning of recipe]
> .....
> To a heavy pot, add the beef, then the onions. Add beef stock, herbs,
> nutmeg and sugar. Add beer until the beef is entirely covered. Bring to
> a boil, then add tomato puree. Cover and simmer gently for 1 hour.
>
> Remove the beef with a slotted spoon, and set aside. Using a chinoise
> or other strainer, strain the sauce into another pot.
>
> Place the beef in the pot with the strained sauce. Add the roux and the
> raisins, continue cooking for 1 hour. Add the apple slices, and cook
> for a further 10 minutes. Taste and adjust the seasoning.
>
Looks like a good version...But what happened to the onions? Were
they strained out in the chinoise, never to reappear? The way I make
this the onions are slightly caramelized before adding them and they
make a nice pile under the beef in the finished dish. -aem

"aem" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 12, 3:27 pm, (Victor Sack) wrote:
>> [snip ingredients and beginning of recipe]
>> .....
>> To a heavy pot, add the beef, then the onions. Add beef stock, herbs,
>> nutmeg and sugar. Add beer until the beef is entirely covered. Bring to
>> a boil, then add tomato puree. Cover and simmer gently for 1 hour.
>>
>> Remove the beef with a slotted spoon, and set aside. Using a chinoise
>> or other strainer, strain the sauce into another pot.
>>
>> Place the beef in the pot with the strained sauce. Add the roux and the
>> raisins, continue cooking for 1 hour. Add the apple slices, and cook
>> for a further 10 minutes. Taste and adjust the seasoning.
>>
> Looks like a good version...But what happened to the onions? Were
> they strained out in the chinoise, never to reappear? The way I make
> this the onions are slightly caramelized before adding them and they
> make a nice pile under the beef in the finished dish. -aem
>
>
The onions should be well caramelized. That and the brown beer make the
dish. This is one of the great winter braises.

Kent

Kent wrote on Sun, 13 Dec 2009 03:51:13 -0800:


> "aem" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Dec 12, 3:27 pm, (Victor Sack) wrote:
>>> [snip ingredients and beginning of recipe]
>>> .....
>>> To a heavy pot, add the beef, then the onions. Add beef
>>> stock, herbs, nutmeg and sugar. Add beer until the beef is
>>> entirely covered. Bring to a boil, then add tomato puree. Cover
>>> and simmer gently for 1 hour.
>>>
>>> Remove the beef with a slotted spoon, and set aside. Using a
>>> chinoise or other strainer, strain the sauce into another pot.
>>>
>>> Place the beef in the pot with the strained sauce. Add the roux and
>>> the raisins, continue cooking for 1 hour. Add the apple slices, and
>>> cook for a further 10 minutes. Taste and adjust the seasoning.
>>>
>> Looks like a good version...But what happened to the onions? Were
>> they strained out in the chinoise, never to reappear? The way I make
>> this the onions are slightly caramelized
>> before adding them and they make a nice pile under the beef
>> in the finished dish. -aem
>>
> The onions should be well caramelized. That and the brown beer
> make the dish. This is one of the great winter braises.

I'd agree about caramelizing the onions but, you know, I quite enjoy the
dish with light beers like Budweiser or its Belgian equivalent, Stella
Artois. I have tried some other suggestions and used Guinness but I'm
not too enthusiastic.A great thing about a carbonade is that you usually
have to add extra beer but there's sometimes half a bottle for you!

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

In article >,
"James Silverton" > wrote:

> Hello All!
>
> I had some venison available so I thought I would try adapting the
> Flemish Carbonade recipe (beef braised with lots of onions). There are
> many similar recipes but I followed one at
> recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/18144/carbonade-de-boeuf.html
>
> It was very good and all I'd like to ask is opinions on herbs in the
> dish. I used a little thyme but I've seen anise, bay leaves etc. Anyone
> have any strong opinions?

Post the recipe please and let us have a looksee? :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

Omelet wrote on Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:44:34 -0600:

>> Hello All!
>>
>> I had some venison available so I thought I would try
>> adapting the Flemish Carbonade recipe (beef braised with lots
>> of onions). There are many similar recipes but I followed one
>> at recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/18144/carbonade-de-boeuf.html
>>
>> It was very good and all I'd like to ask is opinions on herbs
>> in the dish. I used a little thyme but I've seen anise, bay
>> leaves etc. Anyone have any strong opinions?

> Post the recipe please and let us have a looksee? :-)

http://www.recipes.epicurean.com/rec...-de-boeuf.html

Sorry, I missed off the www.

That's where it came from. I don't usually follow completely but the
proportions are quite good. As I agreed before, it is important to
caramelize the onions well.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James wrote to Omelet on Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:53:14 -0500:

>> Post the recipe please and let us have a looksee? :-)

> http://www.recipes.epicurean.com/rec...-de-boeuf.html

> Sorry, I missed off the www.

> That's where it came from. I don't usually follow completely
> but the proportions are quite good. As I agreed before, it is
> important to caramelize the onions well.

I don't know what's happening but I can't get to the URL myself!

http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...9/207454.shtml seems to
work and you'll notice that they say "light beer"

There's a little trick if you don't want to add a lot of fat. The onions
can be cooked at quite a low temperature in a closed pot with just a
squirt of olive oil. They do caramelize that way.





--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> James wrote to Omelet on Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:53:14 -0500:
>
>>> Post the recipe please and let us have a looksee? :-)
>
>> http://www.recipes.epicurean.com/rec...-de-boeuf.html
>
>> Sorry, I missed off the www.
>
>> That's where it came from. I don't usually follow completely
>> but the proportions are quite good. As I agreed before, it is important
>> to caramelize the onions well.
>
> I don't know what's happening but I can't get to the URL myself!
>
> http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...9/207454.shtml seems to work
> and you'll notice that they say "light beer"
>
> There's a little trick if you don't want to add a lot of fat. The onions
> can be cooked at quite a low temperature in a closed pot with just a
> squirt of olive oil. They do caramelize that way.
>

> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
>
My thoughts about Boeuf Carbonnade

1-1/2 lb. round beef, cut in 2 inch cubes
salt and pepper
2 tbs. fat
1 cup chopped onions
2 tbs. flour
1 tbs. brown sugar
2 cups beer
1 cup consommi
1/21/2 tsp. anise seeds

Directions:
Salt and pepper the beef cubes. Melt the fat and brown the meat. Remove from
the saucepan. Brown the chopped onions. Add remaining ingredients and stir
until the mixture boils.
Add the meat to the boiling mixture, cover and cook over medium heat 1 =
hours, stirring occasionally. Serve with noodles.

Use Chuck; round is too dry
Consider using either rendered salt pork or bacon fat.
For 1.5lb beef three large sliced onions; sliced, not minced is important.
Whatever volume of braising liquid you use, use 2 parts red wine to 1 part
beef stock. Use a nice inexpensive fruity wine. Zinfandel, Shiraz are good,
but basically that's to your preference. I think it's almost insane to cook
with a fine single vineyard red wine, or as the French say, "the wine you're
going to drink with the dish". Drink the $30+ or even the $10 bottle at the
table..
For seasoning I usually use a bit of bay leaf, and prov. herbs; maybe a bit
extra of thyme; I avoid the assertive seasonings
For thickening, use 1 level Tb flour for each cup of liquid. You don't want
a gloppy overly thick sauce. This should be made into a roux before adding
liquid. You can add the flour to the onions as they caramelize, and cook for
the last 5-10 minutes. You can you make your roux separately. I do it in the
microwave very easily. I don't think you need or even want a brown roux. You
just want to cook the flour so you don't taste it, and you want to combine
it with the fat.

The braising time is very dependent on the beef; you want it to almost fall
apart, but not completely and you don't want it dry. Ours is always at least
2 hours.

Writing this makes me long for the dish. We've been thinking about Boeuf
Carbonnade the last couple of weeks.

Kent

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:36:56 -0500, James Silverton wrote:

> James wrote to Omelet on Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:53:14 -0500:
>
>>> Post the recipe please and let us have a looksee? :-)
>
>> http://www.recipes.epicurean.com/rec...-de-boeuf.html
>
>> Sorry, I missed off the www.
>
>> That's where it came from. I don't usually follow completely
>> but the proportions are quite good. As I agreed before, it is
>> important to caramelize the onions well.
>
> I don't know what's happening but I can't get to the URL myself!
>
> http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...9/207454.shtml seems to
> work and you'll notice that they say "light beer"
>
> There's a little trick if you don't want to add a lot of fat. The onions
> can be cooked at quite a low temperature in a closed pot with just a
> squirt of olive oil. They do caramelize that way.

hmm...that u.rl. didn't work, but your first took me he

<http://recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/18144/carbonade-de-boeuf.html>

your pal,
blake

"Kent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> James wrote to Omelet on Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:53:14 -0500:
>>
>>>> Post the recipe please and let us have a looksee? :-)
>>
>>> http://www.recipes.epicurean.com/rec...-de-boeuf.html
>>
>>> Sorry, I missed off the www.
>>
>>> That's where it came from. I don't usually follow completely
>>> but the proportions are quite good. As I agreed before, it is important
>>> to caramelize the onions well.
>>
>> I don't know what's happening but I can't get to the URL myself!
>>
>> http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...9/207454.shtml seems to work
>> and you'll notice that they say "light beer"
>>
>> There's a little trick if you don't want to add a lot of fat. The onions
>> can be cooked at quite a low temperature in a closed pot with just a
>> squirt of olive oil. They do caramelize that way.
>>
>
>> James Silverton
>> Potomac, Maryland
>>
>>
> My thoughts about Boeuf Carbonnade
>
> 1-1/2 lb. round beef, cut in 2 inch cubes
> salt and pepper
> 2 tbs. fat
> 1 cup chopped onions
> 2 tbs. flour
> 1 tbs. brown sugar
> 2 cups beer
> 1 cup consommi
> 1/21/2 tsp. anise seeds
>
> Directions:
> Salt and pepper the beef cubes. Melt the fat and brown the meat. Remove
> from the saucepan. Brown the chopped onions. Add remaining ingredients and
> stir until the mixture boils.
> Add the meat to the boiling mixture, cover and cook over medium heat 1 =
> hours, stirring occasionally. Serve with noodles.
>
> Use Chuck; round is too dry
> Consider using either rendered salt pork or bacon fat.
> For 1.5lb beef three large sliced onions; sliced, not minced is important.
> Whatever volume of braising liquid you use, use 2 parts red wine to 1 part
> beef stock. Use a nice inexpensive fruity wine. Zinfandel, Shiraz are
> good, but basically that's to your preference. I think it's almost insane
> to cook with a fine single vineyard red wine, or as the French say, "the
> wine you're going to drink with the dish". Drink the $30+ or even the $10
> bottle at the table..
> For seasoning I usually use a bit of bay leaf, and prov. herbs; maybe a
> bit extra of thyme; I avoid the assertive seasonings
> For thickening, use 1 level Tb flour for each cup of liquid. You don't
> want a gloppy overly thick sauce. This should be made into a roux before
> adding liquid. You can add the flour to the onions as they caramelize, and
> cook for the last 5-10 minutes. You can you make your roux separately. I
> do it in the microwave very easily. I don't think you need or even want a
> brown roux. You just want to cook the flour so you don't taste it, and you
> want to combine it with the fat.
>
> The braising time is very dependent on the beef; you want it to almost
> fall apart, but not completely and you don't want it dry. Ours is always
> at least 2 hours.
>
> Writing this makes me long for the dish. We've been thinking about Boeuf
> Carbonnade the last couple of weeks.
>
> Kent
>
>
I'm confusing the world.

The recipe above in my post is the original recipe followed by James
Silverton in his original post. What is below that and immediately above is
what I'd do to change it. Sorry for not being clear.

Kent

aem > wrote:

> On Dec 12, 3:27 pm, (Victor Sack) wrote:
> > [snip ingredients and beginning of recipe]
> > .....
> > To a heavy pot, add the beef, then the onions. Add beef stock, herbs,
> > nutmeg and sugar. Add beer until the beef is entirely covered. Bring to
> > a boil, then add tomato puree. Cover and simmer gently for 1 hour.
> >
> > Remove the beef with a slotted spoon, and set aside. Using a chinoise
> > or other strainer, strain the sauce into another pot.
> >
> > Place the beef in the pot with the strained sauce. Add the roux and the
> > raisins, continue cooking for 1 hour. Add the apple slices, and cook
> > for a further 10 minutes. Taste and adjust the seasoning.
> >
> Looks like a good version...But what happened to the onions? Were
> they strained out in the chinoise, never to reappear?

This is not entirely clear from the recipe. The onions might have been
strained out, since they were cooked in the liquid for an hour and gave
their all. Or, the onions together with the sauce could have been
rubbed through the fine sieve, resulting in a kind of soubise, a variant
mentioned by Escoffier, among many others.

> The way I make
> this the onions are slightly caramelized before adding them and they
> make a nice pile under the beef in the finished dish. -aem

This is ultimately a matter of individual preference, but caramelised
onions do not appear to be at all traditional in carbonade flamande, not
that it matters a lot in the present case.

Victor