In article >,
RegForte > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>
> > Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> > tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> > find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
> >
> > I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
> > capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> > curing time.
> >
> > Any ideas? :-)
> >
>
> The real thing takes about a year. I would start
> with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
> time.

That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
perfect.

>
> > And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>
> That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
> or something similer.
>
> http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
>
> You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
> out simple and go from there.

Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure all
what is in there at this point. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

Omelet wrote:

> In article >,
> RegForte > wrote:
>
>
>>Omelet wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
>>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>>>
>>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
>>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>>>curing time.
>>>
>>>Any ideas? :-)
>>>
>>
>>The real thing takes about a year. I would start
>>with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
>>time.
>
>
> That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
> treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
> perfect.
>

Canadian bacon is wet cured. Dry cured products require a
completely different set of skills and equipment.

Also, 40 F is too cold for a drying environment. That will be
one of your biggest challenges.

>
>>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>>
>>That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
>>or something similer.
>>
>>http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
>>
>>You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
>>out simple and go from there.
>
>
> Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure all
> what is in there at this point. :-)

The kutas box has a few good pointers about how to setup
a drying box. It's minimal, however.

One of the best books on the subject is Cooking By Hand.
It has a lot of important background info that you need
to dry cure, plus there's a full blown prosciutto recipe
that is probably the best available in print.

<http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Hand-Paul-Bertolli/dp/0609608932/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253214996&sr=8-1>


--
Reg

In article >,
RegForte > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > RegForte > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Omelet wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> >>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> >>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
> >>>
> >>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
> >>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> >>>curing time.
> >>>
> >>>Any ideas? :-)
> >>>
> >>
> >>The real thing takes about a year. I would start
> >>with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
> >>time.
> >
> >
> > That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
> > treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
> > perfect.
> >
>
> Canadian bacon is wet cured. Dry cured products require a
> completely different set of skills and equipment.
>
> Also, 40 F is too cold for a drying environment. That will be
> one of your biggest challenges.
>
> >
> >>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
> >>
> >>That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
> >>or something similer.
> >>
> >>http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
> >>
> >>You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
> >>out simple and go from there.
> >
> >
> > Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure all
> > what is in there at this point. :-)
>
> The kutas box has a few good pointers about how to setup
> a drying box. It's minimal, however.
>
> One of the best books on the subject is Cooking By Hand.
> It has a lot of important background info that you need
> to dry cure, plus there's a full blown prosciutto recipe
> that is probably the best available in print.
>
> <http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Hand-P...ref=sr_1_1?ie=
> UTF8&s=books&qid=1253214996&sr=8-1>

Thanks Reg. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >,
> RegForte > wrote:
>
>> Omelet wrote:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > RegForte > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Omelet wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've
>> >>>not
>> >>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>> >>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>> >>>
>> >>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has
>> >>>the
>> >>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>> >>>curing time.
>> >>>
>> >>>Any ideas? :-)
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>The real thing takes about a year. I would start
>> >>with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
>> >>time.
>> >
>> >
>> > That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
>> > treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
>> > perfect.
>> >
>>
>> Canadian bacon is wet cured. Dry cured products require a
>> completely different set of skills and equipment.
>>
>> Also, 40 F is too cold for a drying environment. That will be
>> one of your biggest challenges.
>>
>> >
>> >>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>> >>
>> >>That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
>> >>or something similer.
>> >>
>> >>http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
>> >>
>> >>You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
>> >>out simple and go from there.
>> >
>> >
>> > Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure
>> > all
>> > what is in there at this point. :-)
>>
>> The kutas box has a few good pointers about how to setup
>> a drying box. It's minimal, however.
>>
>> One of the best books on the subject is Cooking By Hand.
>> It has a lot of important background info that you need
>> to dry cure, plus there's a full blown prosciutto recipe
>> that is probably the best available in print.
>>
>> <http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Hand-P...ref=sr_1_1?ie=
>> UTF8&s=books&qid=1253214996&sr=8-1>
>
> Thanks Reg. :-)
> --
> Peace! Om
>
I was about to mention the same book, Bertolli's "Cooking by Hand". It was
in our local library, and may be in yours. I haven't ever tried anything
like this. If I did, I'd make sure I'd done my research about nitrites and
nitrates, particularly PPM and the risk of cancer.. Proscuitto Parma uses
only salt. Paul Bertolli cures with instacure.

Good Luck, Let us know what you do.

Ed

Theron wrote:

> I was about to mention the same book, Bertolli's "Cooking by Hand". It was
> in our local library, and may be in yours. I haven't ever tried anything
> like this. If I did, I'd make sure I'd done my research about nitrites and
> nitrates, particularly PPM and the risk of cancer.. Proscuitto Parma uses
> only salt. Paul Bertolli cures with instacure.
>
> Good Luck, Let us know what you do.


The nitrate/nitrite issue isn't a big deal. If you don't want to use any,
just leave it out. There's no recipe conversion necessary. Though none
of the hype and scare stories about nitrates have any real scientific
basis.

The only issue that has even a hint of validity is nitrosomine formation
caused by high heat cooking.

So. Eat your prosciutto raw, instead of using the age old, traditional,
deep fried approach.

--
Reg

RegForte wrote:
>
> The nitrate/nitrite issue isn't a big deal. If you don't want to use any,
> just leave it out. There's no recipe conversion necessary. Though none
> of the hype and scare stories about nitrates have any real scientific
> basis.

That's not at all true. You don't know squat
about what you're talking about.

Here's a clinical study on the relation between consumption
of cured meats and pediatric brain cancer:

Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 1996 Aug;5(8):599-605.
Maternal consumption of cured meats and vitamins
in relation to pediatric brain tumors.
Preston-Martin S, Pogoda JM, Mueller BA, Holly EA,
Lijinsky W, Davis RL.
Department of Preventive Medicine, University of
Southern California/Norris Comprehensive
Cancer Center, Los Angeles 90033-0800, USA.

Brain tumors are the leading cause of death from
childhood cancer, yet the causes of most of
these tumors remain obscure. Few chemicals are
effective in causing brain tumors experimentally
after systemic administration of low doses; a
notable exception is one group of N-nitroso
compounds, the nitrosamides (in particular the
nitrosoureas). Feeding pregnant animals
nitrosamide precursors (e.g., sodium nitrite and
an alkylamide such as ethylurea) causes a high
incidence of nervous system tumors in offspring.
This population-based epidemiological study
was designed to test the hypothesis that maternal
consumption during pregnancy of meats cured
with sodium nitrite increases the risk of brain
tumors among offspring. The intake of vitamins C
and E blocks endogenous formation of nitroso
compounds and was expected to be protective.
Mothers of 540 children under age 20 with a
primary brain tumor diagnosed during 1984-1991
and 801 control children in the same 19 counties
on the U.S. West Coast were interviewed. Risk
increased with increasing frequency of eating
processed meats [odds ratio (OR) = 2.1 for eating
at least twice a day compared to not eating; 95%
confidence interval (CI) = 1.3-3.2; P = 0.003).
Risk also increased with increasing average daily
grams of cured meats or mg of nitrite from
cured meats (P for each <0.005) but not with
nitrate from vegetables. Daily use of prenatal
vitamins throughout the pregnancy decreased risk
(OR = 0.54; CI = 0.39-0.75). Risk among
mothers who consumed above the median level of
nitrite from cured meat was greater if vitamins
were not taken (OR = 2.4; CI = 1.4-3.6) than if
they were (OR = 1.3). These effects were
evident for each of three major histological
types and across social classes, age groups, and
geographic areas. This largest study to date of
maternal diet and childhood brain tumors suggests
that exposure during gestation to endogenously
formed nitroso compounds may be associated
with tumor occurrence. Laboratory exploration is
needed to: (a) define dietary sources of
exposure to alkylamides; (b) investigate the
reactivity of nitrite in high concentration such
as around bits of cured meats in the stomach
after ingestion compared to nitrite in dilute
solution; and (c) confirm that simultaneous
ingestion of alkylamides and cured meats leads
to the endogenous formation of nitrosamides.

Here's the abstract from a review of the
scientific basis of the risk.

Cancer Causes Control. 2005 Aug;16(6):619-35.
A review: dietary and endogenously formed N-nitroso
compounds and risk of childhood brain tumors.
Dietrich M, Block G, Pogoda JM, Buffler P,
Hecht S, Preston-Martin S.
School of Public Health, University of
California-Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720-7360, USA.

Maternal dietary exposure to N-nitroso compounds
(NOC) or to their precursors during
pregnancy has been associated with risk of
childhood brain tumors. Cured meat is one source of
exposure to dietary NOC and their precursors.
Most epidemiological studies that have examined
the role of maternal consumption of cured meats
during pregnancy have found a significant
positive association between maternal intake
of cured meat and the risk of childhood brain tumor
(CBT). NOC consist of two main groups,
N-nitrosamines and N-nitrosamides. The
carcinogenicity profiles of NOC suggest that
N-nitrosamides rather than N-nitrosamines are the
compounds that may be associated with CBT
and that they should be investigated more closely
in epidemiological studies. We present a review
of the chemical and carcinogenic properties of
NOC in connection with the findings of case-control
studies. This approach may be helpful in
determining the essential information that
must be collected in future epidemiological studies on
CBT.

> The only issue that has even a hint of validity is nitrosomine formation
> caused by high heat cooking.

Years ago, it was thought that high-heat cooking
is necessary to cause formation of nitrosamines,
however it is now known that nitrosamines and other
N-nitroso compounds will form in the intestines
from eating their precursors.

Here's a clinical study which showed that:

Nutr Cancer. 2002;42(1):70-7.
Effect of vegetables, tea, and soy on endogenous
N-nitrosation, fecal ammonia, and fecal water
genotoxicity during a high red meat diet in
humans.
Hughes R, Pollock JR, Bingham S.
Dunn Human Nutrition Unit, Medical Research Council,
Cambridge CB2 2XY, UK.

Red meat increases colonic N-nitrosation, and
this may explain the positive epidemiological
relationship between red meat intake and colorectal
cancer risk. Vegetables, tea, and soy have
been shown to block N-nitroso compound (NOC)
formation and are associated with protection
against colorectal cancer. To determine whether
these supplements affect fecal NOC excretion
during consumption of a high red meat (420 g/day)
diet, 11 male volunteers were studied over a
randomized series of 15-day dietary periods. Seven
of these subjects completed a further dietary
period to test the effects of soy (100 g/day).
Soy significantly suppressed fecal apparent total
NOC (ATNC) concentration (P = 0.02), but
supplements of vegetables (400 g/day as 134 g
broccoli, 134 g brussels sprouts, and 134 g petits
pois) and tea extract (3 g/day) did not affect
mean levels of fecal ATNC, nitrogen and ammonia
excretion, and fecal water genotoxicity.
However, fecal weight was increased (P < 0.001)
and associated with reduced transit time (r =
0.594, P < 0.0001), so that contact between ATNC,
nitrite, and ammonia and the large bowel
mucosa would have been reduced. Longer transit
times were associated with elevated fecal
ATNC concentrations (r = 0.42, P = 0.002). Fecal
nitrite was significantly suppressed during the
tea supplement compared with the meat-only
(P = 0.0028) and meat + vegetables diets (P =
0.005 for microgram NO2/g).

> So. Eat your prosciutto raw, instead of using the age old, traditional,
> deep fried approach.

Eat all you want, as long as it isn't cured
with nitrates or nitrites. The risk is present
whether you cook it or not.

In article >,
"Theron" > wrote:

> I was about to mention the same book, Bertolli's "Cooking by Hand". It was
> in our local library, and may be in yours. I haven't ever tried anything
> like this. If I did, I'd make sure I'd done my research about nitrites and
> nitrates, particularly PPM and the risk of cancer.. Proscuitto Parma uses
> only salt. Paul Bertolli cures with instacure.
>
> Good Luck, Let us know what you do.
>
> Ed

Oh gods yes! I'm well aware of the importance of that which is why (as
Squertz has pointed out more than once to me), it's safer to use
professionally prepared curing salts. I've used salt petre to date only
because I felt safer with it and it's being used in only very minute
(recommended) quantities and is having the desired effect. I've gotten
good color preservation.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe: