blake murphy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:00:33 -0400, cybercat wrote:
>
> > "none of your business" > wrote:
> >
> >>You make a lot of assumptions that none of us are qualified to make.
> >>I went through chemo and was told to eat whatever I could tolerate.
> >
> > Mark is stupid and arrogant.
>
> but are you qualified to make that assumption?

Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
who advocated eating anything you want has responded
to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
These people have propagated very bad advice that
could send people to an early death. Don't expect
me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
to be dismissed lightly.

Mark Thorson wrote:

> Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
> drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
> These people have propagated very bad advice that
> could send people to an early death. Don't expect
> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
> advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
> to be dismissed lightly.

Don't go patting yourself on the back so soon.
SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
grapefruit products?
I think most of the "advice" you give very foolish and when it comes to
your own neurotic diet modifications that you've written about in the
past... foolish again and certainly slightly obsessed and fearful.

Goomba wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
> > who advocated eating anything you want has responded
> > to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
> > drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
> > familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
> > These people have propagated very bad advice that
> > could send people to an early death. Don't expect
> > me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
> > advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
> > to be dismissed lightly.
>
> Don't go patting yourself on the back so soon.
> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
> grapefruit products?

All drugs which are transported by P-glycoprotein,
which is darn near all of them. My position is
that in the absence of certain knowledge that it is
safe, you should not eat foods known to affect drug
clearance during chemotherapy of any kind.

You position seems to be (I don't want to stuff words
in your mouth here) that in the absence of specific
information that grapefruit (or any other food known
to modulate the mechanisms of drug clearance) affects
the chemotherapy drugs you are receiving, you should
feel free to indulge in those foods.

If that's really what you advise, I consider that to be
monumentally stupid and dangerous advice. My advice
is to err on the side of caution, and avoid foods which
affect drug clearance. In my opinion, suggesting any
other course may lead to harm and even death. This is
why I feel strongly about bad medical advice being handed
out by uninformed people.

> I think most of the "advice" you give very foolish and when it comes to
> your own neurotic diet modifications that you've written about in the
> past... foolish again and certainly slightly obsessed and fearful.

Ah, the _ad_hominem_ attack. Attack the critic, not
the criticism. I've been rather clear about the issues,
and why I think you are wrong. When you run out of
logical responses to what I say, you try to smear me.

"Goomba" wrote:
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>
>> Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
>> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
>> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
>> drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
>> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
>> These people have propagated very bad advice that
>> could send people to an early death. Don't expect
>> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
>> advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
>> to be dismissed lightly.
>
> Don't go patting yourself on the back so soon.
> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all grapefruit
> products?
> I think most of the "advice" you give very foolish and when it comes to
> your own neurotic diet modifications that you've written about in the
> past... foolish again and certainly slightly obsessed and fearful.

What would you expect from a paranoid schizophrenic on thorazine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Medication

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 02:42:24 GMT, brooklyn1 wrote:

> "Goomba" wrote:
>> Mark Thorson wrote:
>>
>>> Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
>>> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
>>> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
>>> drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
>>> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
>>> These people have propagated very bad advice that
>>> could send people to an early death. Don't expect
>>> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
>>> advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
>>> to be dismissed lightly.
>>
>> Don't go patting yourself on the back so soon.
>> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
>> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all grapefruit
>> products?
>> I think most of the "advice" you give very foolish and when it comes to
>> your own neurotic diet modifications that you've written about in the
>> past... foolish again and certainly slightly obsessed and fearful.
>
> What would you expect from a paranoid schizophrenic on thorazine.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Medication

what then should we expect from a paranoid schizophrenic who is *not* on
thorazine?

blake

blake murphy > wrote in message
...
[snip]
> what then should we expect from a paranoid schizophrenic
> who is *not* on thorazine?

Something along the lines like you. Imagined demons and devils around every
corner and darkness drawing your white knight's single-lined ire.

The Ranger

The Ranger wrote:

> blake murphy > wrote in message
> ...
> [snip]
>> what then should we expect from a paranoid schizophrenic
>> who is *not* on thorazine?
>
> Something along the lines like you. Imagined demons and devils around
> every corner and darkness drawing your white knight's single-lined
> ire.


That's what blake imagines about Republicans, lol...


--
Best
Greg

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in message
m...
> The Ranger wrote:
>
>> blake murphy > wrote in message
>> ...
>> [snip]
>>> what then should we expect from a paranoid schizophrenic
>>> who is *not* on thorazine?
>>
>> Something along the lines like you. Imagined demons and devils around
>> every corner and darkness drawing your white knight's single-lined
>> ire.
>
>
> That's what blake imagines about Republicans, lol...
>
No he doesn't. He imagines inept buffoons.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:10:10 -0500, Gregory Morrow wrote:

> The Ranger wrote:
>
>> blake murphy > wrote in message
>> ...
>> [snip]
>>> what then should we expect from a paranoid schizophrenic
>>> who is *not* on thorazine?
>>
>> Something along the lines like you. Imagined demons and devils around
>> every corner and darkness drawing your white knight's single-lined
>> ire.
>
> That's what blake imagines about Republicans, lol...

all i know is what i read in the paper. that seems to be enough.

will

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:41:24 -0700, The Ranger wrote:

> blake murphy > wrote in message
> ...
> [snip]
>> what then should we expect from a paranoid schizophrenic
>> who is *not* on thorazine?
>
> Something along the lines like you. Imagined demons and devils around every
> corner and darkness drawing your white knight's single-lined ire.
>
> The Ranger

yep, that's me.

blake

blake murphy > wrote in message
.. .
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:41:24 -0700, The Ranger wrote:
>> blake murphy > wrote in message
>> ...
>> [snip]
>>> what then should we expect from a paranoid schizophrenic
>>> who is *not* on thorazine?
>>
>> Something along the lines like you. Imagined demons
>> and devils around every corner and darkness drawing
>> your white knight's single-lined ire.
>>
> yep, that's me.

It's more obvious with every post but keep responding. I love seeing just
how far you're willing to go.

The Ranger

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:30:53 -0400, Goomba wrote:

> Mark Thorson wrote:
>
>> Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
>> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
>> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
>> drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
>> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
>> These people have propagated very bad advice that
>> could send people to an early death. Don't expect
>> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
>> advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
>> to be dismissed lightly.
>
> Don't go patting yourself on the back so soon.
> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
> grapefruit products?

well, i drink a lot of grapefruit juice, but i don't take any drugs but
ibuprofen. is there a site outlining metabolic effects on regular people?

your pal,
blake

blake murphy wrote:

>> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
>> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
>> grapefruit products?
>
> well, i drink a lot of grapefruit juice, but i don't take any drugs but
> ibuprofen. is there a site outlining metabolic effects on regular people?
>
> your pal,
> blake

Here ya go. a nice little cite/site for you-
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FS088

Goomba wrote:
>
> blake murphy wrote:
>
> >> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
> >> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
> >> grapefruit products?
> >
> > well, i drink a lot of grapefruit juice, but i don't take any drugs but
> > ibuprofen. is there a site outlining metabolic effects on regular people?
> >
> > your pal,
> > blake
>
> Here ya go. a nice little cite/site for you-
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FS088

That list is dangerously incomplete. It appears
to have been compiled strictly from studies on
interactions between specific drugs and grapefruit
juice, and even with this restriction the list is
incomplete. For example, colchicine is not listed,
even though it has this interaction. Most drugs
have not been studied for their interaction with
grapefruit juice, and it would be an enormous
mistake to assume that in the absence of data
no interaction will occur.

The mechanism by which grapefruit juice interacts
with drugs is known -- it modulates P-gp.
Therefore any drug known to be a P-gp substrate
should be considered to have an interaction
unless studies show it does not. Nearly all
cancer chemotherapy drugs are known to be
P-gp substrates. I don't know of any chemotherapy
drug which is not a P-gp substrate, but I suppose
they might exist.

Also, that web site says "Juices from oranges or
other citrus fruits do not interact with medications
in the same way." That's not true. Orange juice
also contains the compound in grapefruit juice
responsible for modulating P-gp. It contains
less of it, so it would be reasonable to say the
risk is lower, but it is not reasonable to say
this interaction doesn't occur at all.

Mark Thorson wrote:

>> Here ya go. a nice little cite/site for you-
>> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FS088
>
> That list is dangerously incomplete. It appears
> to have been compiled strictly from studies on
> interactions between specific drugs and grapefruit
> juice, and even with this restriction the list is
> incomplete. For example, colchicine is not listed,
> even though it has this interaction. Most drugs
> have not been studied for their interaction with
> grapefruit juice, and it would be an enormous
> mistake to assume that in the absence of data
> no interaction will occur.
>
> The mechanism by which grapefruit juice interacts
> with drugs is known -- it modulates P-gp.
> Therefore any drug known to be a P-gp substrate
> should be considered to have an interaction
> unless studies show it does not. Nearly all
> cancer chemotherapy drugs are known to be
> P-gp substrates. I don't know of any chemotherapy
> drug which is not a P-gp substrate, but I suppose
> they might exist.


Oddly, The American Cancer Society doesn't seem to feel any need to
advise cancer patients of this and advises that a varied diet as
tolerated is the goal to entice appetite and provide the best nutrition
to support treatment. Go figure.

Otherwise, the list is pretty darn complete from what I can tell.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:35:29 -0400, Goomba wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>
>>> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
>>> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
>>> grapefruit products?
>>
>> well, i drink a lot of grapefruit juice, but i don't take any drugs but
>> ibuprofen. is there a site outlining metabolic effects on regular people?
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> Here ya go. a nice little cite/site for you-
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FS088

well, i don't see ibuprofen, so so far, so good.

thanks.

your pal,
blake

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
| On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:35:29 -0400, Goomba wrote:
|
| > blake murphy wrote:
| >
| >>> SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
| >>> all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
| >>> grapefruit products?
| >>
| >> well, i drink a lot of grapefruit juice, but i don't take any drugs but
| >> ibuprofen. is there a site outlining metabolic effects on regular people?
| >>
| >> your pal,
| >> blake
| >
| > Here ya go. a nice little cite/site for you-
| > http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FS088
|
| well, i don't see ibuprofen, so so far, so good.

Right, the normal medical sites say there is no conflict.
But that IFAS list is incomplete. Doesn't list verapamil
HCl, for one, that definitely interacts with grapefruit.
Surprising, since they have such a good football team.

pavane

blake murphy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:30:53 -0400, Goomba wrote:
>
> > Mark Thorson wrote:
> >
> >> Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
> >> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
> >> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
> >> drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
> >> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
> >> These people have propagated very bad advice that
> >> could send people to an early death. Don't expect
> >> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
> >> advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
> >> to be dismissed lightly.
> >
> > Don't go patting yourself on the back so soon.
> > SOME drugs are potentiated by grapefruit for example. That doesn't mean
> > all drugs are. So should anyone taking any medicine give up all
> > grapefruit products?
>
> well, i drink a lot of grapefruit juice, but i don't take any drugs but
> ibuprofen. is there a site outlining metabolic effects on regular people?

I'm not aware of any, but I haven't gone looking
for one. I get most of my information through PubMed,
both the abstracts and the full articles which I
obtain at a local medical school library. I've
got a couple file boxes of papers on drug clearance
mechanisms.

Food is an important modulator, but the problem is
much more serious for certain herbs. St. John's Wort
strongly activates drug clearance mechanisms, to the
extent that it has provoked rejection in organ
transplant recipients taking cyclosporin and failure
of birth control drugs.

Mark Thorson wrote:

> I'm not aware of any, but I haven't gone looking
> for one. I get most of my information through PubMed,
> both the abstracts and the full articles which I
> obtain at a local medical school library. I've
> got a couple file boxes of papers on drug clearance
> mechanisms.

Have you heard the phrase cyberchondriac yet?

You seem to fit the bill.

Goomba wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > I'm not aware of any, but I haven't gone looking
> > for one. I get most of my information through PubMed,
> > both the abstracts and the full articles which I
> > obtain at a local medical school library. I've
> > got a couple file boxes of papers on drug clearance
> > mechanisms.
>
> Have you heard the phrase cyberchondriac yet?
>
> You seem to fit the bill.

This is how you respond when your ill-considered
advice is criticized. You attack the critic,
not the criticism, in a vain attempt to draw
attention off your bad advice. Your bad advice
could easily result in harm, and you don't seem
to care a bit about that. You seem to lack
moral character.

Mark Thorson wrote:

>> Have you heard the phrase cyberchondriac yet?
>>
>> You seem to fit the bill.
>
> This is how you respond when your ill-considered
> advice is criticized. You attack the critic,
> not the criticism, in a vain attempt to draw
> attention off your bad advice. Your bad advice
> could easily result in harm, and you don't seem
> to care a bit about that. You seem to lack
> moral character.

Apparently multiple licensing and certifying boards feel differently
than you. <shrug>

I truly don't believe you understand what research cites you dig up. And
your paranoia over far too many foods makes you a very unreliable reference.

On Jul 22, 4:30*pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
>
>
> Obviously not. *Note that neither of the posters
> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
> drug clearance mechanisms. *I happen to be rather
> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
> These people have propagated very bad advice that
> could send people to an early death. *Don't expect
> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
> advice. *Food-drug interactions are not something
> to be dismissed lightly.

I'm going to listen to my oncologist's advice about what to eat during
chemotherapy before I'm going to listen to YOU.
If my doctor, who is writing the orders for MY chemotherapy, knows
what he's giving me and knows what I'm eating, says it was ok for ME
to eat what I was able to tolerate, with no ill effect, that's what
I'm going to do. Likewise, if he said to me "you need to avoid onions,
grapefruits and x, y and z while you're having these treatments", I
would have avoided those foods. Anyone who doesn't follow doctor's
orders during life-saving treatments is a fool. But anyone who puts
more stock in advice from a complete stranger on the internet than
from what their doctor tells them is a bigger fool. Who are you? What
makes you qualified to make these statements? Because you say so? At
least I know my oncologist's credentials.

You may be right, SOME foods probably interact with some of the chemo
drugs. But I am certain, if there was a known problem with something I
specifically told my doctor I was eating, he would have told me to
stop eating it.

none of your business wrote:
>
> On Jul 22, 4:30 pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> >
> > Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
> > who advocated eating anything you want has responded
> > to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
> > drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
> > familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
> > These people have propagated very bad advice that
> > could send people to an early death. Don't expect
> > me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
> > advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
> > to be dismissed lightly.
>
> I'm going to listen to my oncologist's advice about what to eat during
> chemotherapy before I'm going to listen to YOU.

Why don't you ask him about these issues. Ask him
if grapefruit affects drug clearance. If he doesn't
know, or if he doesn't know whether it affects it
positively or negatively, he's incompetent.

Most of the information about food-drug interactions
was published in the last 10 years. There's lots
of doctors and nurses out there who don't keep up
with their field. Professional incompetence in
medicine much more common than most people know.

> If my doctor, who is writing the orders for MY chemotherapy, knows
> what he's giving me and knows what I'm eating, says it was ok for ME
> to eat what I was able to tolerate, with no ill effect, that's what
> I'm going to do. Likewise, if he said to me "you need to avoid onions,
> grapefruits and x, y and z while you're having these treatments", I
> would have avoided those foods. Anyone who doesn't follow doctor's
> orders during life-saving treatments is a fool. But anyone who puts
> more stock in advice from a complete stranger on the internet than
> from what their doctor tells them is a bigger fool. Who are you? What
> makes you qualified to make these statements? Because you say so? At
> least I know my oncologist's credentials.

I don't ask you to trust me. If there's any aspect of
this issue you want more information about, I can cite
relevant literature in peer-reviewed medical journals.
You can have a high level of confidence in them.

> You may be right, SOME foods probably interact with some of the chemo
> drugs. But I am certain, if there was a known problem with something I
> specifically told my doctor I was eating, he would have told me to
> stop eating it.

If he knew about it. If he keeps up with the journals.
A lot of them don't.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:30:54 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:00:33 -0400, cybercat wrote:
>>
>>> "none of your business" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>You make a lot of assumptions that none of us are qualified to make.
>>>>I went through chemo and was told to eat whatever I could tolerate.
>>>
>>> Mark is stupid and arrogant.
>>
>> but are you qualified to make that assumption?
>
> Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
> drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
> These people have propagated very bad advice that
> could send people to an early death. Don't expect
> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
> advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
> to be dismissed lightly.

well, mark, i seem to remember you posting about a lot of things that could
kill you or make you sick that most people don't worry about.

however, to your credit, you usually provide cites, so i really can't fault
you.

your pal,
blake

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:30:54 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:00:33 -0400, cybercat wrote:
>>>
>>>> "none of your business" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>You make a lot of assumptions that none of us are qualified to make.
>>>>>I went through chemo and was told to eat whatever I could tolerate.
>>>>
>>>> Mark is stupid and arrogant.
>>>
>>> but are you qualified to make that assumption?
>>
>> Obviously not. Note that neither of the posters
>> who advocated eating anything you want has responded
>> to the issue of food-provoked modulation of the
>> drug clearance mechanisms. I happen to be rather
>> familiar with these mechanisms, and I know I'm right.
>> These people have propagated very bad advice that
>> could send people to an early death. Don't expect
>> me to be quiet when I see fools giving such bad
>> advice. Food-drug interactions are not something
>> to be dismissed lightly.
>
> well, mark, i seem to remember you posting about a lot of things that
> could
> kill you or make you sick that most people don't worry about.
>
> however, to your credit, you usually provide cites, so i really can't
> fault
> you.
I had to kf him for all the MAN DIES FROM OLD TACO! subject lines he did for
a while.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:58:49 -0400, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>I had to kf him for all the MAN DIES FROM OLD TACO! subject lines he did for
>a while.

OMG... you *do* use your kill file. LOL! I don't remember the topic,
so I must have killed the subject.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.