I know there are a couple of rfcers who will be interested in reading
this.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazett...6-7397a1f933ea

16 August 2008
Union wins contract at Wal-Mart in Gatineau

First in North America Company 'reviewing decision, implications'

JEAN-FRANCOIS BERTRAND, Canwest News Service; Ottawa Citizen

A Gatineau Wal-Mart became the first in North America with a union
contract in effect yesterday when a collective agreement was put into
place between the retailer and eight employees of an auto shop.
After a three-year process that ended with a ruling by an arbitrator,
workers of Local 486 of the United Food and Commercial Workers Canada
should see their wages rise to a minimum of $11.54 an hour from the
current $8.50 an hour.
The 50-page agreement represents 98 per cent of what the union asked
for, said union local president Guy Chenier. Workers who install
tires, change oil and fill propane tanks made gains on their salary
for statutory holidays worked, have more generous vacations and will
see their wages increase periodically.
The three-year agreement replaces a system where technicians were paid
minimum wage and where increases of 30 cents an hour were granted
"randomly" after a year or six months, Chenier said.
He said that while Wal-Mart might want to close the Gatineau location,
it would be difficult because "we have a collective agreement in our
hands." Only the eights employees at the Tire & Lube Express centre
are affected by the decision, while the 200 staff inside the store are
not unionized.
Wal-Mart Canada spokesman Andrew Pelletier said that the company is
"carefully reviewing the decision and its implications."
There is a new, larger Wal-Mart four kilometres to the west. When
asked if closing older Gatineau location was in the realm of
possibilities, Pelletier said he would not speculate and "we're still
looking at the decision."
In 2005, Wal-Mart shut down its Jonquière store, days before an
arbitrator was to impose a contract. The Supreme Court of Canada has
agreed to hear the union's case that Wal-Mart violated Quebec's labour
laws, as well as the Charter of Rights, when it closed the Jonquière
store.
The Gatineau Wal-Mart's unionization was recognized by Quebec's Labour
Board in June 2005, but a month later, the employer requested a
judicial review. In February 2006, Justice Diane Marcelin of Quebec's
Superior Court rejected Wal-Mart's request, and in July 2006, the
minister of labour referred the dispute to an arbitrator. Hearings
ended in early June.

© The Gazette (Montreal) 2008

John Kane wrote:
> I know there are a couple of rfcers who will be interested in reading
> this.
>
> http://www.canada.com/montrealgazett...ry.html?id=677...

I read the article but didn't find it interesting or informative...
what's the point of this article... a weather report is more
interesting/informative.

On Aug 16, 1:50*pm, Sheldon > wrote:
> John Kane wrote:
> > I know there are a couple of rfcers who will be interested in reading
> > this.
>
> >http://www.canada.com/montrealgazett...ry.html?id=677....
>
> I read the article but didn't find it interesting or informative...
> what's the point of this article... a weather report is more
> interesting/informative.


Wal-mart is the largest corporation in the world ( not sure exactly
what metric, $$ or employees or both) and virulently anti-union. This
is the first time that Wal-mart in North America has had a union
sucessfully organize and actually get a contract.

The last time something close to this happened (Jonquière, QC in 2005)
Wal-mart simply closed the store the day the contract arbitration was
decided. It's a tactic Wal-Mart has used before
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Apr13.html
"The world's largest retail chain has fiercely and successfully
resisted unionization attempts at its 3,600 stores in the United
States. Its closest call ended in Texas in 2000 when the store
eliminated its meat department after 11 meat cutters voted to join a
union."

This is currently before the Supreme Court though I am not sure of
what the case is about. I suspect it's a breach of the contract.

CBC has reported that the Saint Hyacinthe store has unionized and gone
to arbitration but a contract has not been set yet.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada.

On Aug 16, 2:34�pm, John Kane > wrote:
> On Aug 16, 1:50�pm, Sheldon > wrote:
>
> > John Kane wrote:
> > > I know there are a couple of rfcers who will be interested in reading
> > > this.
>
> > >http://www.canada.com/montrealgazett...ry.html?id=677...
>
> > I read the article but didn't find it interesting or informative...
> > what's the point of this article... a weather report is more
> > interesting/informative.
>
> Wal-mart is the largest corporation in the world ( not sure exactly
> what metric, $$ or employees or both) and virulently anti-union. �This
> is the first time that Wal-mart in North America has had a union
> sucessfully organize and actually get a contract.
>
> The last time something close to this happened (Jonqui�re, QC in 2005)
> Wal-mart simply closed the store the day the contract arbitration was
> decided. �It's a tactic Wal-Mart has used beforehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51521-2005Apr13.html
> "The world's largest retail chain has fiercely and successfully
> resisted unionization attempts at its 3,600 stores in the United
> States. Its closest call ended in Texas in 2000 when the store
> eliminated its meat department after 11 meat cutters voted to join a
> union."
>
> This is currently before the Supreme Court though I am not sure of
> what the case is about. I suspect it's a breach of the contract.
>
> CBC has reported that the Saint Hyacinthe store has unionized and gone
> to arbitration but a contract has not been set yet.
>
> John Kane Kingston ON Canada.

Unionization of Walmart employees is not necessarilly a good thing,
certainly not for the patrons... I for one do not want my automobile
serviced by the least capable/motivated people simply because they
have more senority. Unions guarantee that the least able will
prevail.

On 2008-08-17, Sheldon > wrote:

> have more senority. Unions guarantee that the least able will
> prevail.

Unions guarantee almost nothing, except maybe you won't get fired, fired
upon, or coerced into working off the clock (which WM has been repeatedly
accused of). I wish unions weren't necessary, but sometimes they are. You
know it's bad when the illegal aliens start organizing.


nb

notbob wrote:
> On 2008-08-17, Sheldon > wrote:
>
>> have more senority. Unions guarantee that the least able will
>> prevail.
>
> Unions guarantee almost nothing, except maybe you won't get fired, fired
> upon, or coerced into working off the clock (which WM has been repeatedly
> accused of). I wish unions weren't necessary, but sometimes they are. You
> know it's bad when the illegal aliens start organizing.
>
>
> nb

Same here but human nature seems to work differently. Its one giant
cycle where one group gets too much power and the other group responds.

Wally could head all of this off if they loaded a little less money on
the truck to haul back to Arkansas.

"Sheldon" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 2:34?pm, John Kane > wrote:
> On Aug 16, 1:50?pm, Sheldon > wrote:
>
> > John Kane wrote:
> > > I know there are a couple of rfcers who will be interested in reading
> > > this.
>
> > >http://www.canada.com/montrealgazett...ry.html?id=677...
>
> > I read the article but didn't find it interesting or informative...
> > what's the point of this article... a weather report is more
> > interesting/informative.
>
> Wal-mart is the largest corporation in the world ( not sure exactly
> what metric, $$ or employees or both) and virulently anti-union. ?This
> is the first time that Wal-mart in North America has had a union
> sucessfully organize and actually get a contract.
>
> The last time something close to this happened (Jonqui?re, QC in 2005)
> Wal-mart simply closed the store the day the contract arbitration was
> decided. ?It's a tactic Wal-Mart has used
> beforehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51521-2005Apr13.html
> "The world's largest retail chain has fiercely and successfully
> resisted unionization attempts at its 3,600 stores in the United
> States. Its closest call ended in Texas in 2000 when the store
> eliminated its meat department after 11 meat cutters voted to join a
> union."
>
> This is currently before the Supreme Court though I am not sure of
> what the case is about. I suspect it's a breach of the contract.
>
> CBC has reported that the Saint Hyacinthe store has unionized and gone
> to arbitration but a contract has not been set yet.
>
> John Kane Kingston ON Canada.

Unionization of Walmart employees is not necessarilly a good thing,
certainly not for the patrons... I for one do not want my automobile
serviced by the least capable/motivated people simply because they
have more senority. Unions guarantee that the least able will
prevail.


Typical example of Unions:
Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus depot.
Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then head
mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He now pulls
in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation, penion to die
for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus fare
raised every few years.

I once worked for a bus company. A new driver had 78 accidents in his bus in
one year, one of which involved planting his bus 8 feet into a bridge
abuttment. Fire him? No Way-he's a Union Employee!!!! He went out on full
Workers Comp for 9 months with medical injuries and 2 years for
'psychological trauma'.

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:55:47 -0400, Kswck wrote:
>
> Typical example of Unions:
> Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus depot.
> Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then head
> mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He now pulls
> in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation, penion to die
> for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
> Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus fare
> raised every few years.
>

sorry, but this sounds like complete and utter bullshit. a friend of a
friend of yours, no doubt? your brother-in-law's cousin's aunt? or is
this from some radio ranter?

your pal,
blake

"Kswck" > wrote in message
> Typical example of Unions:
> Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus depot.
> Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then
> head mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He now
> pulls in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation, penion
> to die for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
> Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus fare
> raised every few years.
>
> I once worked for a bus company. A new driver had 78 accidents in his bus
> in one year, one of which involved planting his bus 8 feet into a bridge
> abuttment. Fire him? No Way-he's a Union Employee!!!! He went out on full
> Workers Comp for 9 months with medical injuries and 2 years for
> 'psychological trauma'.

Second example is the really bad part of unions. You'd think they want to
keep some ethics and that other members would not want to be tainted. .

In the first example, I'm not so sure. OK, he never went to school, but is
he qualified to do the work? Is the 100k a base salary or does it include
many hours of OT? Good mechanics deserve good pay, but that seems a bit
high.

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:58:35 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"Kswck" > wrote in message
>> Typical example of Unions:
>> Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus depot.
>> Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then
>> head mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He now
>> pulls in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation, penion
>> to die for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
>> Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus fare
>> raised every few years.
>>
>> I once worked for a bus company. A new driver had 78 accidents in his bus
>> in one year, one of which involved planting his bus 8 feet into a bridge
>> abuttment. Fire him? No Way-he's a Union Employee!!!! He went out on full
>> Workers Comp for 9 months with medical injuries and 2 years for
>> 'psychological trauma'.
>
>Second example is the really bad part of unions. You'd think they want to
>keep some ethics and that other members would not want to be tainted. .

The second example sounds pretty fishy, too. That averages out to an
accident once every 3 weeks and exposes the company to lawsuits from
passengers. Some unions have a lot of sway, but it won't take too much
mediation to get someone with that traffic record out from behind the
wheel. Out on disability, maybe, but not back to driving. Too much of
a liability and if the union were to insist on keeping him driving,
then they'd be liable, too.
>
>In the first example, I'm not so sure. OK, he never went to school, but is
>he qualified to do the work? Is the 100k a base salary or does it include
>many hours of OT? Good mechanics deserve good pay, but that seems a bit
>high.
>

Average salary of a diesel mechanic is $60K/yr. Add in seniority and
some overtime, promotion to department head, and variability by region
and particular industry, it will be higher, but not unheard of, nor
necessarily undeserved.

http://www.indeed.com/salary/Diesel-Mechanic.html

There is no question in my mind that some unions have gone out of
their way to shoot themselves in the foot. That's why these days
companies like Wal-Mart can get away with what they do insofar as pay
and bennies.

Boron

"Boron Elgar" > wrote
>>> I once worked for a bus company. A new driver had 78 accidents in his
>>> bus
>>> in one year,

> The second example sounds pretty fishy, too. That averages out to an
> accident once every 3 weeks


An accident once every 3 weeks during a year would be 17 accidents.

1.5 accidents per week is what 78 per year works out to. Sounds like a
drunk to me.


TFM®

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:38:22 -0400, TFM®
> wrote:

>
>
>"Boron Elgar" > wrote
>>>> I once worked for a bus company. A new driver had 78 accidents in his
>>>> bus
>>>> in one year,
>
>> The second example sounds pretty fishy, too. That averages out to an
>> accident once every 3 weeks
>
>
>An accident once every 3 weeks during a year would be 17 accidents.
>
>1.5 accidents per week is what 78 per year works out to. Sounds like a
>drunk to me.

Or bumper cars.

Lou

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "Kswck" > wrote in message
> > Typical example of Unions:
> > Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus
depot.
> > Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then
> > head mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He
now
> > pulls in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation,
penion
> > to die for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
> > Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus
fare
> > raised every few years.
> >
> > I once worked for a bus company. A new driver had 78 accidents in his
bus
> > in one year, one of which involved planting his bus 8 feet into a bridge
> > abuttment. Fire him? No Way-he's a Union Employee!!!! He went out on
full
> > Workers Comp for 9 months with medical injuries and 2 years for
> > 'psychological trauma'.
>
> Second example is the really bad part of unions. You'd think they want to
> keep some ethics and that other members would not want to be tainted. .
>
> In the first example, I'm not so sure. OK, he never went to school, but
is
> he qualified to do the work? Is the 100k a base salary or does it include
> many hours of OT? Good mechanics deserve good pay, but that seems a bit
> high.


You could always hire the bad mechanics, they come pretty cheap I hear...

:-)

Not a public employee, my dad worked in a factory in the 50's - 80's, he
eventually rose to that level of pay 'n perks. Worked a lot of overtime,
made very good money for a blue collar guy with a HS education. That kind
of thing was "par for the course", that's how we went from fairly
hardscrabble "working class" to "middle class". That type of upward
mobility is kinda rare anymore for people with that sort of
background...except for public employees.

--
Best
Greg

Gregory Morrow wrote:

> Not a public employee, my dad worked in a factory in the 50's - 80's, he
> eventually rose to that level of pay 'n perks. Worked a lot of overtime,
> made very good money for a blue collar guy with a HS education. That kind
> of thing was "par for the course", that's how we went from fairly
> hardscrabble "working class" to "middle class". That type of upward
> mobility is kinda rare anymore for people with that sort of
> background...except for public employees.
>

To be a police officer here in Hillbilly, LA, you have to be 21 and have
a valid driver's license. They just increased salaries for new officers
to 50K. That is not much money in the Northeast or in California, but
that is a lot of money here in the south.

Becca

On 2008-08-17, TFM® > wrote:
>
> 1.5 accidents per week is what 78 per year works out to. Sounds like a
> drunk to me.

Sounds like dung to me!

nb

On 2008-08-17, Gregory Morrow > wrote:

> hardscrabble "working class" to "middle class". That type of upward
> mobility is kinda rare anymore for people with that sort of
> background...except for public employees.

Not necessarily. I did it in a hi-tech company. Started out as an
assembler and made it to senior engineering tech before the dot-com crash.
Sure, I put in a lot of time going to night school, but I learned more about
troubleshooting huge electronics systems (which wasn't my field) than any
class I ever took in college. OJT is just as much an education as any
college degree. Construction workers, truck/diesel mechanics, and many
other SKILLED blue-collar workers do not learn their trade in school.

nb

On 2008-08-17, Becca > wrote:

> To be a police officer here in Hillbilly, LA, you have to be 21 and have
> a valid driver's license. They just increased salaries for new officers
> to 50K. That is not much money in the Northeast or in California, but
> that is a lot of money here in the south.

Boy howdy! It's earned, I'm sure. Lotta drug traffic down there. How much
is YOUR life worth?

nb

John Kane > wrote in news:5a0cba7c-a1f5-42f2-9329-
:

> Wal-mart is the largest corporation in the world ( not sure exactly
> what metric, $$ or employees or both) and virulently anti-union. This
> is the first time that Wal-mart in North America has had a union
> sucessfully organize and actually get a contract.

Québec, for all that it is now governed by a liberal government, is
strongly pro-union as union membership and the rights that go with it are
in line with the Québec charter of rights.

As for the Supreme Court case, John, all it takes is a moment to inform
oneself:

Gaétan Plourde v. Wal-Mart Canada Corp. - and - Commission des relations
du travail (Que.) (Civil) (By Leave)

Labour relations - Human rights - Freedom of association - Closure of
business - Complaint alleging dismissal because of union activities -
Whether Wal-Mart’s exercise of right to permanently close establishment
precluded application of provisions of Charter of human rights and
freedoms, R.S.Q., c. C-12, and Labour Code, R.S.Q., c. C-27, protecting
fundamental freedoms, including freedom of association - Scope of
presumption resulting from s. 17 of Labour Code where activities giving
rise to presumption protected by freedom of association - Scope of
employer’s burden of proving “good and sufficient reason” where employer
deemed to have imposed measure in violation of freedom of association.

In September 2004, the United Food and Commercial Workers Union, Local
503, was certified to represent employees of Wal-Mart’s establishment in
Jonquière. After several bargaining sessions, the parties could not
reach an agreement, and the union filed an application under the Labour
Code to refer the dispute to arbitration in order to establish the
provisions of a first collective agreement. On February 9, 2005, the
Minister of Labour referred the dispute to arbitration and notified the
parties of the referral. That same day, Wal-Mart informed the employees
of its decision to close the store. On April 29, 2005, the Applicant’s
employment, along with that of approximately 190 other employees, was
terminated.

The Applicant contested the loss of his employment by filing a complaint
under ss. 15 et seq. of the Labour Code. He contended that he had lost
his employment because of his union activities. Wal-Mart objected to the
claim, relying on the closure of the store. Several other employees
filed the same complaint, but the parties agreed that a certain number of
the complaints would be heard by the Commission des relations du travail
first, without prejudice to the other complainants’ rights. Relying on
City Buick Pontiac (Mtl) Inc. v. Roy, (1981) T.T. 22, and I.A.T.S.E.,
Stage Local 56 v. Société de la Place des Arts de Montréal, [2004] 1
S.C.R. 43, the Commission dismissed Mr. Plourde’s complaint on the basis
that the permanent nature of the closure of the Jonquière Wal-Mart
constituted a “good and sufficient reason” for the loss of employment
within the meaning of s. 17 of the Labour Code. The Commission rejected
the Applicant’s argument that a loss of employment in violation of
freedom of association cannot constitute a loss of employment for another
reason that is good and sufficient.

http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/new...8-01.2a/08-08-
01.2a.html

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:55:47 -0400, Kswck wrote:
>>
>> Typical example of Unions:
>> Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus depot.
>> Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then
>> head
>> mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He now
>> pulls
>> in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation, penion to
>> die
>> for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
>> Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus
>> fare
>> raised every few years.
>>
>
> sorry, but this sounds like complete and utter bullshit. a friend of a
> friend of yours, no doubt? your brother-in-law's cousin's aunt? or is
> this from some radio ranter?
>
> your pal,
> blake

Wrong. People I worked with. I was an office worker. THEY were the union
employees. Would you like a name and address of the the company too?

notbob wrote:
> On 2008-08-17, Becca > wrote:
>
>> To be a police officer here in Hillbilly, LA, you have to be 21 and have
>> a valid driver's license. They just increased salaries for new officers
>> to 50K. That is not much money in the Northeast or in California, but
>> that is a lot of money here in the south.
>
> Boy howdy! It's earned, I'm sure. Lotta drug traffic down there. How much
> is YOUR life worth?
>
> nb

IMO, I am priceless. Other people's opinions may vary.

Becca

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:07:56 -0400, Kswck wrote:

> "blake murphy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:55:47 -0400, Kswck wrote:
>>>
>>> Typical example of Unions:
>>> Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus depot.
>>> Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then
>>> head
>>> mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He now
>>> pulls
>>> in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation, penion to
>>> die
>>> for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
>>> Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus
>>> fare
>>> raised every few years.
>>>
>>
>> sorry, but this sounds like complete and utter bullshit. a friend of a
>> friend of yours, no doubt? your brother-in-law's cousin's aunt? or is
>> this from some radio ranter?
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> Wrong. People I worked with. I was an office worker. THEY were the union
> employees. Would you like a name and address of the the company too?

well, for what it's worth, i still don't believe it. maybe the union
members bitching to you were without flaw themselves, and were outraged at
the injustice of it all, but i doubt it. or the sweeper was the boss's
nephew.

but even if true, this means the union *in that shop* was corrupt, not that
*all* unions are corrupt and evil.

your pal,
blake

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:52:20 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2008-08-17, Gregory Morrow > wrote:
>
>> hardscrabble "working class" to "middle class". That type of upward
>> mobility is kinda rare anymore for people with that sort of
>> background...except for public employees.
>
>Not necessarily. I did it in a hi-tech company. Started out as an
>assembler and made it to senior engineering tech before the dot-com crash.
>Sure, I put in a lot of time going to night school, but I learned more about
>troubleshooting huge electronics systems (which wasn't my field) than any
>class I ever took in college. OJT is just as much an education as any
>college degree. Construction workers, truck/diesel mechanics, and many
>other SKILLED blue-collar workers do not learn their trade in school.

98-+% of most trades is learned on the job. The other 2-+% is
important also. To get a license to run a hot dog cart <--ob food, or
install an electrical panel will require hitting the books and/or some
school.

Lou

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:07:56 -0400, "Kswck" >
wrote:

>
>"blake murphy" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:55:47 -0400, Kswck wrote:
>>>
>>> Typical example of Unions:
>>> Teamsters Union. A 'sweeper'-the guy who sweeps the floor in a bus depot.
>>> Through seniority, he becomes junior mechanic, then full mechanic, then
>>> head
>>> mechanic-w/o ever going to school to work on Detroit Deisels. He now
>>> pulls
>>> in around $100k/yr. He gets regular raises, 6 weeks vacation, penion to
>>> die
>>> for and full healthcare benefits (at not cost to him).
>>> Who gets screwed? The public who gets to pay him by getting their bus
>>> fare
>>> raised every few years.
>>>
>>
>> sorry, but this sounds like complete and utter bullshit. a friend of a
>> friend of yours, no doubt? your brother-in-law's cousin's aunt? or is
>> this from some radio ranter?
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
>Wrong. People I worked with. I was an office worker. THEY were the union
>employees. Would you like a name and address of the the company too?
>

I would.

Thanks.

Lou

Michael "Dog3" wrote:

> I accomplished all of this without using my degree. Anyone could have
> done what I did without a degree. The only problem I can see for
> someone out of high school, without a college degree, is getting the
> foot in the door. The degree got my foot in the door for the first
> job. After that I did a lot of networking and the rest of my jobs I
> got from contacts and friends that I knew working for other
> organizations. I learned it all by hands on experience and some
> classes that helped explain the various systems I had to deal with.

IT is rife with people whose degree was in something else. At
least then it was a way to make good money sooner than climbing
the ladder in other professions. I went to Chubb with all kinds of
people, they had masters in other fields.

nancy

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:36:40 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>well, for what it's worth, i still don't believe it. maybe the union
>members bitching to you were without flaw themselves, and were outraged at
>the injustice of it all, but i doubt it. or the sweeper was the boss's
>nephew.
>
>but even if true, this means the union *in that shop* was corrupt, not that
>*all* unions are corrupt and evil.

People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
corrupt organization. I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
how the US government operates. Most kids snored through all that
boring stuff. Unions are far less corrupt than the US government and
people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
there would be no middle class.

Lou

Lou Decruss wrote:

> People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
> corrupt organization. I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
> how the US government operates. Most kids snored through all that
> boring stuff. Unions are far less corrupt than the US government and
> people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
> there would be no middle class.

I was involved with my union at work. I used to hear people whining
about "the union" all the time and how "the union" wasn't doing this or
that for them. I used to point out that they were part of the union and
if they didn't like something they should get involved, go to a meeting,
run for executive or anything, but don't sit around and bitch about it
without doing anything.

Having worked in union and non union shops I have to say that union
shops are much better. The pay is better, working conditions are better,
safety standards are higher. Whatever I paid in union dues I more than
made up for in wages. And thanks to my union, I got to retire at 53.

Big niece's husband used to work in a non-union shop. He was a courier
driver with a major company. The company was bought out by a bigger
company and it had a union. Pity for him that he didn't have a union to
protect his job like the parent company's employees did. After
reorganization of the company they still had jobs. He didn't.

On 2008-08-19, Michael "Dog3" > wrote:

> I accomplished all of this without using my degree.

Either you are being disingenuous or extremely naive. A degree makes an
enormaous difference. I discovered in my long journey from blue to white
collar that a 4 yr degree was more a membership to an elite fraternity than
any indication of mental prowess.

I ran into more degreed bozos than you can imagine. People who could barely
find their own ass! But, they were pulling down twice as much as I was,
regardless. Plus, the basis of the degree was always irrelevent. Greek
history? ....production engineering! MS in philosophy? ....R&D management!
It matters not what the discipline, only the sheepskin. Like I said, if
you have the paper, you can do no wrong and regardless of the job, if it
calls for a degree, you're in, we'll sweat the details later.

I'm not saying you are a bozo, Andy, just that that degree opened more
higher paying doors than you realize.

nb

notbob wrote:
> On 2008-08-19, Michael "Dog3" > wrote:
>
>> I accomplished all of this without using my degree.
>
> Either you are being disingenuous or extremely naive. A degree makes an
> enormaous difference. I discovered in my long journey from blue to white
> collar that a 4 yr degree was more a membership to an elite fraternity than
> any indication of mental prowess.
>
> I ran into more degreed bozos than you can imagine. People who could barely
> find their own ass! But, they were pulling down twice as much as I was,
> regardless. Plus, the basis of the degree was always irrelevent. Greek
> history? ....production engineering! MS in philosophy? ....R&D management!
> It matters not what the discipline, only the sheepskin. Like I said, if
> you have the paper, you can do no wrong and regardless of the job, if it
> calls for a degree, you're in, we'll sweat the details later.
>
> I'm not saying you are a bozo, Andy, just that that degree opened more
> higher paying doors than you realize.
>
> nb
Amen! My first job after college (graduated at age 36 after being in the
work force for nearly 20 years)was in management. guy that hired me told
me all the degree meant was that I could be trained. He was pretty much
right. Of course I had good job skills in my blue collar job and knew
what work was and what it was for so that also helped.

"Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
> People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
> corrupt organization. I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
> how the US government operates. Most kids snored through all that
> boring stuff. Unions are far less corrupt than the US government and
> people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
> there would be no middle class.
>
> Lou

I don't know what percentage of unions are corrupt, but the one I used to
negotiate with was. All they wanted was the dues and "health and welfare"
contributions. As for the workers, they did not care one bit. We actually
paid more than the contract called for because we had to in order to attract
workers. I can tell you stories about how the contract was "negotiated"
and settled long before we sat down at the bargaining table.

If you go back to the turn of the last century, unions did help the worker
and did gain much for the welfare of society and helped form the middle
class. Unfortunately, many went to far sometime in the 70's or so. Some
are now finding they lost many members and are finally working with
management to train workers in the trades. This is especially true with
some New York construction worker's unions.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
>> People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
>> corrupt organization. I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
>> how the US government operates. Most kids snored through all that
>> boring stuff. Unions are far less corrupt than the US government and
>> people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
>> there would be no middle class.
>>
>> Lou
>
> I don't know what percentage of unions are corrupt, but the one I used to
> negotiate with was. All they wanted was the dues and "health and welfare"
> contributions. As for the workers, they did not care one bit. We actually
> paid more than the contract called for because we had to in order to attract
> workers. I can tell you stories about how the contract was "negotiated"
> and settled long before we sat down at the bargaining table.
>
> If you go back to the turn of the last century, unions did help the worker
> and did gain much for the welfare of society and helped form the middle
> class. Unfortunately, many went to far sometime in the 70's or so. Some
> are now finding they lost many members and are finally working with
> management to train workers in the trades. This is especially true with
> some New York construction worker's unions.
>
>
It seems to be a human thing where we have to slide into one direction
or the other. I have never been a union member but I do understand the
purpose.

I think what a lot of people forget is how they got started. I grew up
in an area noted for coal. One of the things we learned about was the
history of the area. A few coal barons owned everything (and outside the
area a few families owned everything else). People were essentially
owned by the coal barons and worked really long hours in dangerous
conditions for tiny wages that they were paid in scrip so it only be
spent at the high priced company store. The government was corrupt and
owned by the coal barons. In a well documented incident in the early
days when the miners were organizing the local sheriff and his deputies
who were owned by the coal barons stopped a protest by simply shooting
and killing the miners.

Concepts such as a 40 hour work week, pay scales, the creation of the
middle class etc all came about because of unions.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:32:37 -0500, Lou Decruss >
wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:36:40 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:
>
>>well, for what it's worth, i still don't believe it. maybe the union
>>members bitching to you were without flaw themselves, and were outraged at
>>the injustice of it all, but i doubt it. or the sweeper was the boss's
>>nephew.
>>
>>but even if true, this means the union *in that shop* was corrupt, not that
>>*all* unions are corrupt and evil.
>
>People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
>corrupt organization. I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
>how the US government operates. Most kids snored through all that
>boring stuff. Unions are far less corrupt than the US government
BS
Isn't that like comparing Ed Gein to Jeffrey Dahmer? Corrupt is
corrupt.

and
>people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
>there would be no middle class.
If you like living in the past. I work in a segment of an industry
that is predominantly union. The company I work for is non-union. The
others are dropping like fly's while mine is financially in great
shape. BTW I make as more as my union counterparts. The unions were
great in their day but that has long come & gone.
Check this out;
http://www.unionfacts.org/
>
>Lou

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:04:21 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>This is especially true with
>some New York construction worker's unions.

don't judge the rest of the country by NYC. It's all corrupt.


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:32:37 -0500, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:36:40 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>well, for what it's worth, i still don't believe it. maybe the union
>>members bitching to you were without flaw themselves, and were outraged at
>>the injustice of it all, but i doubt it. or the sweeper was the boss's
>>nephew.
>>
>>but even if true, this means the union *in that shop* was corrupt, not that
>>*all* unions are corrupt and evil.
>
> People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
> corrupt organization. I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
> how the US government operates. Most kids snored through all that
> boring stuff. Unions are far less corrupt than the US government and
> people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
> there would be no middle class.
>
> Lou

and no five-day week, eight-hour day, mandatory breaks, paid vacation...a
lot of people had their heads busted to get things we take for granted
today.

it's just not a good idea for the boss to have *all* the power.
unfortunately, that's the way things are sliding today. it used to be one
wage-earner could support a household.

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:40:40 -0500, George Shirley wrote:

> notbob wrote:
>> On 2008-08-19, Michael "Dog3" > wrote:
>>
>>> I accomplished all of this without using my degree.
>>
>> Either you are being disingenuous or extremely naive. A degree makes an
>> enormaous difference. I discovered in my long journey from blue to white
>> collar that a 4 yr degree was more a membership to an elite fraternity than
>> any indication of mental prowess.
>>
>> I ran into more degreed bozos than you can imagine. People who could barely
>> find their own ass! But, they were pulling down twice as much as I was,
>> regardless. Plus, the basis of the degree was always irrelevent. Greek
>> history? ....production engineering! MS in philosophy? ....R&D management!
>> It matters not what the discipline, only the sheepskin. Like I said, if
>> you have the paper, you can do no wrong and regardless of the job, if it
>> calls for a degree, you're in, we'll sweat the details later.
>>
>> I'm not saying you are a bozo, Andy, just that that degree opened more
>> higher paying doors than you realize.
>>
>> nb
> Amen! My first job after college (graduated at age 36 after being in the
> work force for nearly 20 years)was in management. guy that hired me told
> me all the degree meant was that I could be trained. He was pretty much
> right. Of course I had good job skills in my blue collar job and knew
> what work was and what it was for so that also helped.

exactly. a degree (at least used to) guarantee you could read and write
and at least think a little, and, as you say, could learn or be trained.
(though i have heard i.t. old-timers complain about computer sciences grads
who had no idea what accounts receivable were.)

your pal,
blake

On Aug 20, 8:45*am, George > wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
> >> People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
> >> corrupt organization. *I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
> >> how the US government operates. *Most kids snored through all that
> >> boring stuff. *Unions are far less corrupt than the US government and
> >> people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
> >> there would be no middle class.
>
> >> Lou
>
> > I don't know what percentage of unions are corrupt, but the one I used to
> > negotiate with was. *All they wanted was the dues and "health and welfare"
> > contributions. *As for the workers, they did not care one bit. *We actually
> > paid more than the contract called for because we had to in order to attract
> > workers. * I can tell you stories about how the contract was "negotiated"
> > and settled long before we sat down at the bargaining table.
>
> > If you go back to the turn of the last century, unions did help the worker
> > and did gain much for the welfare of society and helped form the middle
> > class. *Unfortunately, many went to far sometime in the 70's or so. *Some
> > are now finding they lost many members and are finally working with
> > management to train workers in the trades. *This is especially true with
> > some New York construction worker's unions.
>
> It seems to be a human thing where we have to slide into one direction
> or the other. I have never been a union member but I do understand the
> purpose.
>
> I think what a lot of people forget is how they got started. I grew up
> in an area noted for coal. One of the things we learned about was the
> history of the area. A few coal barons owned everything (and outside the
> area a few families owned everything else). People were essentially
> owned by the coal barons and worked really long hours in dangerous
> conditions for tiny wages that they were paid in scrip so it only be
> spent at the high priced company store. The government was corrupt and
> owned by the coal barons. In a well documented incident in the early
> days when the miners were organizing the local sheriff and his deputies
> who were owned by the coal barons stopped a protest by simply shooting
> and killing the miners.
>
> Concepts such as a 40 hour work week, pay scales, the creation of the
> middle class etc all came about because of unions

I remember seeing a documentary about the Depression in Canada in the
1930's. General Motors (Canada) declared the third successive year of
record high profits and then declared that its employees were going to
have to take a cut in pay. (Lots of unemployeed out there ).
Strangely enough GM was unionized that year.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

On Aug 20, 10:28*am, sf wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:04:21 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> wrote:
>
> >This is especially true with
> >some New York construction worker's unions.
>
> don't judge the rest of the country by NYC. *It's all corrupt.

Naw how can you say that? I am reminded of a colleague from Ontario
who was making a presentation in NYC on some kind of construction work
he was doing. One of the audience flatly disbelieved his costs. It
took my colleague some time to figure out that he was not believed
because he had not included a slush fund for things like getting the
electricity connected, telephones connected the elevators held for
moving materials etc.[1.]

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

1. List is approximate as it has been several years since I heard the
story.

blake murphy wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:40:40 -0500, George Shirley wrote:
>
>> notbob wrote:
>>> On 2008-08-19, Michael "Dog3" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I accomplished all of this without using my degree.
>>> Either you are being disingenuous or extremely naive. A degree makes an
>>> enormaous difference. I discovered in my long journey from blue to white
>>> collar that a 4 yr degree was more a membership to an elite fraternity than
>>> any indication of mental prowess.
>>>
>>> I ran into more degreed bozos than you can imagine. People who could barely
>>> find their own ass! But, they were pulling down twice as much as I was,
>>> regardless. Plus, the basis of the degree was always irrelevent. Greek
>>> history? ....production engineering! MS in philosophy? ....R&D management!
>>> It matters not what the discipline, only the sheepskin. Like I said, if
>>> you have the paper, you can do no wrong and regardless of the job, if it
>>> calls for a degree, you're in, we'll sweat the details later.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying you are a bozo, Andy, just that that degree opened more
>>> higher paying doors than you realize.
>>>
>>> nb
>> Amen! My first job after college (graduated at age 36 after being in the
>> work force for nearly 20 years)was in management. guy that hired me told
>> me all the degree meant was that I could be trained. He was pretty much
>> right. Of course I had good job skills in my blue collar job and knew
>> what work was and what it was for so that also helped.
>
> exactly. a degree (at least used to) guarantee you could read and write
> and at least think a little, and, as you say, could learn or be trained.
> (though i have heard i.t. old-timers complain about computer sciences grads
> who had no idea what accounts receivable were.)
>
> your pal,
> blake
We used to get young chemical engineers on the job fresh from collitch.
Most of them thought they knew everything there was to know about
hydrocarbon processing, aka the erl bidness. Whatever your degree is in
it takes about five years to break you of thinking you know it all and
then turn you into a good whatever-it-was-we-hired-you-for. I did
recruiting for a couple of major players in the oil and chemical
business and saw a lot of inflated egos on the other side of my desk.

Same goes for blue collar workers, at least in my field of hydrocarbon
processing. Takes five years to turn the person into a valuable employee
and, by then, you've got between $100K and $200K invest in their OJT and
classroom training combined.

When I said to hell with corporate America and broke out as a consultant
I ended up doing a lot of that training myself and made my living for
the next fifteen years that way. Less money than corporate work by
choice and a whole lot less headaches.

On Aug 20, 9:13*am, Roughrider50 > wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:32:37 -0500, Lou Decruss >
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:36:40 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
> >>well, for what it's worth, i still don't believe it. *maybe the union
> >>members bitching to you were without flaw themselves, and were outraged at
> >>the injustice of it all, but i doubt it. *or the sweeper was the boss's
> >>nephew.
>
> >>but even if true, this means the union *in that shop* was corrupt, not that
> >>*all* unions are corrupt and evil.
>
> >People who have never worked in a union job think it's just one big
> >corrupt organization. *I learned about unions in 7th grade along with
> >how the US government operates. *Most kids snored through all that
> >boring stuff. *Unions are far less corrupt than the US government
>
> BS
> Isn't that like comparing Ed Gein to Jeffrey Dahmer? Corrupt is
> corrupt.
>
> and>people who bitch about them should remember that if there wasn't any
> >there would be no middle class. *
>
> If you like living in the past. I work in a segment of an industry
> that is predominantly union. The company I work for is non-union. The
> others are dropping like fly's while mine is financially in great
> shape. BTW I make as more as my union counterparts. The unions were
> great in their day but that has long come & gone.
> Check this out;http://www.unionfacts.org/

Why does that website remind me of Swiftboats?

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

On Aug 17, 8:55*am, "Kswck" > wrote:

>
> I once worked for a bus company. A new driver had 78 accidents in his bus in
> one year, one of which involved planting his bus 8 feet into a bridge
> abuttment. Fire him? No Way-he's a Union Employee!!!! He went out on full
> Workers Comp for 9 months with medical injuries and 2 years for
> 'psychological trauma'.-

How do you have 78 accidents in a year and still have a driver's
licence?

Or does management not care if they have drivers without a driver's
licence.

Next story please!

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

On Aug 17, 6:52*pm, notbob > wrote:
> On 2008-08-17, Gregory Morrow > wrote:
>
> > hardscrabble "working class" to "middle class". * That type of upward
> > mobility is kinda rare anymore for people with that sort of
> > background...except for public employees.
>
> Not necessarily. *I did it in a hi-tech company. *Started out as an
> assembler and made it to senior engineering tech before the dot-com crash..
> Sure, I put in a lot of time going to night school, but I learned more about
> troubleshooting huge electronics systems (which wasn't my field) than any
> class I ever took in college. *OJT is just as much an education as any
> college degree. *Construction workers, truck/diesel mechanics, and many
> other SKILLED blue-collar workers do not learn their trade in school. * *
>
> nb

Most if not all of them here have a fairly well-defined work and study
apprenticeship for the skilled trades.

I'd agree with your not necessarily but I'd bet that you are not the
normal career path. From everything I've read in the last few years
it's getting hard to do what you did, certainly not impossible but a
lot harder.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada