Amazing what gobs of makeup can do, eh?




"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Oh yes. Stunning. Unfortunately, she put on a LOT of weight before her
> "reality" show and looks like a bloated cow, but when she was young and
> pretty.... yes... stunning.

In article >, notbob > wrote:
>On 2007-02-08, elaine > wrote:
>> Partially to blame, I think.
>
>Nonsense. I think it quite sad ANS came to such a tragic end, but
>people's perceptions of her had nothing to do with it. She was a
>troubled soul long before she became a celebrity figure.

Huh? "Celebrity figure"? Never heard of the dame till now.
Did she cook?

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

**~~**~~** wrote:
>
> Amazing what gobs of makeup can do, eh?



Mraaeewwww!!!

Gregory Morrow wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> Puester wrote:
>>>
>>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>>> Margaret Suran wrote:
>>>>> Dora, Neither Marcel nor I ever heard of her. Should we have
>>>>> recognized her name? On CNN, there is such fuss made over her
>>>>> untimely death. I am sorry that someone so young, with a new baby
>>>>> died, but I still have no idea who she is. RIP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You must live in a vacuum. She
>>>> was stunningly beautiful
>>>
>>> Are we thinking of the same Anna Nicole? She certainly had a body
>>> that wouldn't quit, but stunningly beautiful? Nah.
>>
>> Oh yes. Stunning. Unfortunately, she put on a LOT of weight before
>> her "reality" show and looks like a bloated cow, but when she was
>> young and pretty.... yes... stunning.
>
>
> She reminds me a little bit of Jayne Mansfield. Jayne was stunning
> when young (and also fairly talented, unlike Anna) but then later on
> Jayne eventually lost it and became something of a joke. Jayne met
> her untimely demise in a gruesome car crash in 1967. The way she was
> going, it was almost a relief, she was truly on the skids...as her ex
> - husband husband Mickey Hargitay said on an A&E "Biography" devoted
> to her, "In the end, only Jayne could have helped herself...".
>
I have a photo of John's father being sung to in a club by Jayne Mansfield!
Probably a rare shot. Anna Nicole was no Jayne Mansfield.

Jill

"Mitch" <Mitch@...> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:45:19 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>Dang. I am going to have to find some new fantasy material.
>>Pity. She was only 39.
>
> I'm surprised she made it that long. She was a train wreck.

She had her problems, but most people have folks close to them, either
friends or family with the kinds of problems Anna Nicole had. The two that
come first to mind: a predilection to substance abuse and the desperate
craving for attention that lots of women who grow up without a father
display. (And no, I am not one of these women--my dad was there, and was
great with me--but I sure have known a few.)

Her chosen look, and her chosen approach to life had a lot to do with both
of these things. I rarely let people's looks get in the way when I am trying
to see *them.*

I was surprised that her death saddened me, but it sure did sadden me.

**~~**~~** wrote:
>
> Amazing what gobs of makeup can do, eh?

Er, not always. Recall Ms. Baker *shudder*...

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:01:49 GMT, (Phred)
wrote:

>In article >, notbob > wrote:
>>On 2007-02-08, elaine > wrote:
>>> Partially to blame, I think.
>>
>>Nonsense. I think it quite sad ANS came to such a tragic end, but
>>people's perceptions of her had nothing to do with it. She was a
>>troubled soul long before she became a celebrity figure.
>
>Huh? "Celebrity figure"? Never heard of the dame till now.
>Did she cook?
>
>Cheers, Phred.

I think that she was a celebrity, but why was there more then a
mention, on news programs. The amount of time spent on her death is
unwarranted, except for maybe Entertainment tonight.

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:54:50 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:


>I was surprised that her death saddened me, but it sure did sadden me.

Death usually is sad unless you're heartless. 2 weeks ago I went to a
funeral for a 40 year old man who took a "nap" in a running car in the
garage. I only met him a few times but it was very sad and bothered
me for days.

Lou

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:40:05 -0600, notbob > wrote:

>On 2007-02-09, Carol Garbo > wrote:
>>
>> flawed soul and I think that the media hounded her to pieces. Does the
>
>* stripper
>* Marilyn Monroe clone
>* model
>* Playmate of the month
>* Playmate of the year
>* actress
>* gold digger
>* TV host
>* Promotional shill
>* talk show regular
>* awards show regular
>* lush
>* druggie
>* all around media slut and publicity whore
>
>But, it wasn't her fault.

LOL. Well said.

Lou

"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mitch" <Mitch@...> wrote in message
> ...
>> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:45:19 -0500, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Dang. I am going to have to find some new fantasy material.
>>>Pity. She was only 39.
>>
>> I'm surprised she made it that long. She was a train wreck.
>
> She had her problems, but most people have folks close to them, either
> friends or family with the kinds of problems Anna Nicole had. The two that
> come first to mind: a predilection to substance abuse and the desperate
> craving for attention that lots of women who grow up without a father
> display. (And no, I am not one of these women--my dad was there, and was
> great with me--but I sure have known a few.)
>
> Her chosen look, and her chosen approach to life had a lot to do with both
> of these things. I rarely let people's looks get in the way when I am
> trying to see *them.*
>
> I was surprised that her death saddened me, but it sure did sadden me.
>

A waste is what her death was. When you saw her leaving the court after
dealing with the deceased husband's children, she actually looked liked a
beautiful young woman, without all the added pounds of pancake make up and
hair extensions. This was only a year ago. Then the heir who sued her
died, her son died, and now her....in the end I think Howard got his
revenge, no one got his money.

She was more like her idol, Marilyn, than Jayne Mansfield. Mansfield was by
all accounts a genius who made poor choices in her final years, but her
legacy as an actress and mother will stand up. Marilyn was not the
brightest cookie and was used and used up by her hangers on and their like
for what they could get out of her. Like her, I'm sure no one will ever
know if Anna did herself in intentionally or accidentally.

What saddens me is the ghouls who are circling her corpse....the sister she
hadn't seen or spoken to in 10 years, the mother who by her own admission,
disowned her, all want their little 'piece of the pie' they think she left.
The out of work photog only wants claim to the baby because he thinks there
are millions attached to her, not unlike Thierry Roussoult (remember him, he
married, impregnated and left Christina Onassis, and by all accounts was a
rotten father because the Onassis will kept his hands of Athena's money). I
hope they find the baby's father is some Bahamanian fisherman with a big
heart for a little lost child. Then maybe the baby will have a normal
existence.
-ginny

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:11:03 -0600, "jmcquown" >
wrote:

>I have a photo of John's father being sung to in a club by Jayne Mansfield!
>Probably a rare shot. Anna Nicole was no Jayne Mansfield.

Yeah....Anna Nicole got to leave the party with her head still
attached.

"Virginia Tadrzynski" > wrote
>
> A waste is what her death was. When you saw her leaving the court after
> dealing with the deceased husband's children, she actually looked liked a
> beautiful young woman, without all the added pounds of pancake make up and
> hair extensions. This was only a year ago.

I could always see the beauty underneath the garish cosmetics, implants,
etc.


>Then the heir who sued her died, her son died, and now her....in the end I
>think Howard got his revenge, no one got his money.

Is there any reason to believe that Howard did not want Anna Nicole
to have his money?


> She was more like her idol, Marilyn, than Jayne Mansfield. Mansfield was
> by all accounts a genius who made poor choices in her final years, but her
> legacy as an actress and mother will stand up. Marilyn was not the
> brightest cookie and was used and used up by her hangers on and their like
> for what they could get out of her.

One of MM's biographers differs from this "dim bulb" view of her intellect.
I recall stories about her reading material and other indications that she
was
actually quite bright.

> Like her, I'm sure no one will ever know if Anna did herself in
> intentionally or accidentally.

When someone has done prescription drugs for so long, and is so
dependent that she cannot even manage to do interviews while not
visibly wasted, the line is way too thin. The added things, most
notably the death of her son, the birth of her daughter and the fact
that her daughter's paternity was about to come out, plus the fever
of 105 she is said to have had the day before she died, almost
certainly contributed.

>
> What saddens me is the ghouls who are circling her corpse....the sister
> she hadn't seen or spoken to in 10 years, the mother who by her own
> admission, disowned her, all want their little 'piece of the pie' they
> think she left.

That's just human nature. People behave the worst whenever there is money
involved, and especially when people die. This led me to back off when both
my parents died a few years apart, and just let my sisters have whatever
there
was. I thought I honored my parents best by behaving as they had raised me
to.


> The out of work photog only wants claim to the baby because he thinks
> there are millions attached to her, not unlike Thierry Roussoult (remember
> him, he married, impregnated and left Christina Onassis, and by all
> accounts was a rotten father because the Onassis will kept his hands of
> Athena's money). I hope they find the baby's father is some Bahamanian
> fisherman with a big heart for a little lost child. Then maybe the baby
> will have a normal existence.

Now it seems Zsa Zsa Gabor's 59-year-old husband has entered the
Paternity Contest. While her death saddens me, I have to say, the hooha
over the paternity of her daughter is amusing. With so much attention,
I'm sure the baby will be well cared for. At least I hope so.

OB food--a major slab of broiled salmon, spinach and garlic penne,
a very nice pinot grigio are on the menu for dinner. Mmm mmm.

Ward Abbott wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:11:03 -0600, "jmcquown" >
> wrote:
>
>> I have a photo of John's father being sung to in a club by Jayne Mansfield!
>> Probably a rare shot. Anna Nicole was no Jayne Mansfield.
>
> Yeah....Anna Nicole got to leave the party with her head still
> attached.

So did Jayne Mansfield. She was not decapitated in the accident.

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:13:19 -0700, Pennyaline
> wrote:

> not decapitated in the accident.

I don't think so....made her real dead in a very unflattering pose. It
was a closed casket...thank Gawd.


According to the police report on the accident, "the upper portion of
this white female's head was severed." Her death certificate notes a
"crushed skull with avulsion (forcible separation or detachment) of
cranium and brain." One thinks of a beheading as the neck's being
sliced through, causing the head to be separated from the body, but
that is clearly not what happened here. Scalping is perhaps a closer
description of Mansfield's fate, but even that word does not
accurately reflect the cranial trauma she suffered, because scalping
victims at least retain an intact skull. The Angel of Death did not
afford Mansfield this luxury: Her skull was cracked or sliced open,
and a sizeable piece of it was carried away.


snopes.com

Ward Abbott wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:13:19 -0700, Pennyaline
> > wrote:
>
>> not decapitated in the accident.
>
> I don't think so....made her real dead in a very unflattering pose. It
> was a closed casket...thank Gawd.
>
>
> According to the police report on the accident, "the upper portion of
> this white female's head was severed." Her death certificate notes a
> "crushed skull with avulsion (forcible separation or detachment) of
> cranium and brain." One thinks of a beheading as the neck's being
> sliced through, causing the head to be separated from the body, but
> that is clearly not what happened here. Scalping is perhaps a closer
> description of Mansfield's fate, but even that word does not
> accurately reflect the cranial trauma she suffered, because scalping
> victims at least retain an intact skull. The Angel of Death did not
> afford Mansfield this luxury: Her skull was cracked or sliced open,
> and a sizeable piece of it was carried away.
>
>
> snopes.com

In short, her head was, in your own words, still attached.

<albeit not intact>

Ward Abbott wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:13:19 -0700, Pennyaline
> > wrote:
>
> > not decapitated in the accident.
>
> I don't think so....made her real dead in a very unflattering pose. It
> was a closed casket...thank Gawd.
>
>
> According to the police report on the accident, "the upper portion of
> this white female's head was severed." Her death certificate notes a
> "crushed skull with avulsion (forcible separation or detachment) of
> cranium and brain." One thinks of a beheading as the neck's being
> sliced through, causing the head to be separated from the body, but
> that is clearly not what happened here. Scalping is perhaps a closer
> description of Mansfield's fate, but even that word does not
> accurately reflect the cranial trauma she suffered, because scalping
> victims at least retain an intact skull. The Angel of Death did not
> afford Mansfield this luxury: Her skull was cracked or sliced open,
> and a sizeable piece of it was carried away.
>
>
> snopes.com


She was indeed scalped and part of the skull detached...

The famous accident pic from _Hollywood Babylon_ which supposedly showed her
decaptitated head on the windshield of the car in actuality shows Jayne's
wig, at that point in her life she was constantly wearing hairpieces...

More on the gruesome crash, including accident scene photos (not for those
of you who are easily oogied out):

http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/m..._mansfield.htm

--
Best
Greg

If she made the Playboy centerfold she certainly was stunningly
beautiful with a body I'd only throw out of bed because there's more
room on the floor... so not only are you low IQ illogical you also have
ALL your taste in your ass. Any man who wouldn't think they've died and
gone to heaven riding in Anna Nicole Smith's saddle has to be another
one of Margaret Suran's eunochs.
What a terrible loss of a human being.
Sheldon
======================================
I thank, applaud, and bow to you for what you have said Sheldon.

Yes, like all of us, she was a human being, a very beautiful one, both
inside, and out.

None of us are without flaws, and all of us have made mistakes in life.

I pray she is with God in Heaven this day.
I will never forget her, Mark

"I tend to think that Smith's death is the only hope the baby has."
======================================
I truly pray that this Child will recieve the love in her life that her
maternal mother, Anna Nicole would've bestowed upon her. Mark

Mark D wrote:
> "I tend to think that Smith's death is the only hope the baby has."
> ======================================
> I truly pray that this Child will recieve the love in her life that
> her maternal mother, Anna Nicole would've bestowed upon her. Mark

Right. After all, she did so well with her first child.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
...
> Mark D wrote:
>> "I tend to think that Smith's death is the only hope the baby has."
>> ======================================
>> I truly pray that this Child will recieve the love in her life that
>> her maternal mother, Anna Nicole would've bestowed upon her. Mark
>
> Right. After all, she did so well with her first child.
>

Who are you to judge? I hope people are as kind when you kick.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
> A waste is what her death was. When you saw her leaving the court after
> dealing with the deceased husband's children, she actually looked liked a
> beautiful young woman, without all the added pounds of pancake make up and
> hair extensions. This was only a year ago. Then the heir who sued her
> died, her son died, and now her....in the end I think Howard got his
> revenge, no one got his money.
>
> She was more like her idol, Marilyn, than Jayne Mansfield. Mansfield was by
> all accounts a genius who made poor choices in her final years, but her
> legacy as an actress and mother will stand up. Marilyn was not the
> brightest cookie and was used and used up by her hangers on and their like
> for what they could get out of her. Like her, I'm sure no one will ever
> know if Anna did herself in intentionally or accidentally.

A friend of mine was Anna Nicole's roomate at the Betty Ford Clinic.
She said Anna was genuinely sweet and talked about her son as if the
sun rose because of him. What people forget is the media chooses what
they show, and none of us really knew Anna Nicole, other than her
media image.


>
> What saddens me is the ghouls who are circling her corpse....the sister she
> hadn't seen or spoken to in 10 years, the mother who by her own admission,
> disowned her, all want their little 'piece of the pie' they think she left.
> The out of work photog only wants claim to the baby because he thinks there
> are millions attached to her, not unlike Thierry Roussoult (remember him, he
> married, impregnated and left Christina Onassis, and by all accounts was a
> rotten father because the Onassis will kept his hands of Athena's money). I
> hope they find the baby's father is some Bahamanian fisherman with a big
> heart for a little lost child. Then maybe the baby will have a normal
> existence.
> -ginny

Couldn't have said it better myself. AN's best friend was on TV today
and said she thinks Anna simply died of a broken heart. She was still
devastated by Danny's death and wasn't coping well, at all. While
Anna Nicole wasn't a role model by any means, she was one of the first
contemporary plus-sized models and sex-symbol, and that's no small
accomplishment in this world where Kate Moss is held up as a standard
of beauty. She was only 39 - and her death was a tragedy. I only
hope that her child can have a semblence of a normal life, out of the
media's eye.

-L.

cybercat wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Mark D wrote:
>>> "I tend to think that Smith's death is the only hope the baby has."
>>> ======================================
>>> I truly pray that this Child will recieve the love in her life that
>>> her maternal mother, Anna Nicole would've bestowed upon her. Mark
>>
>> Right. After all, she did so well with her first child.
>>
>
> Who are you to judge? I hope people are as kind when you kick.

What, are you judging me? LOL!!!

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
...
> cybercat wrote:
>> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Mark D wrote:
>>>> "I tend to think that Smith's death is the only hope the baby has."
>>>> ======================================
>>>> I truly pray that this Child will recieve the love in her life that
>>>> her maternal mother, Anna Nicole would've bestowed upon her. Mark
>>>
>>> Right. After all, she did so well with her first child.
>>>
>>
>> Who are you to judge? I hope people are as kind when you kick.
>
> What, are you judging me? LOL!!!
>

Point taken, but still. Although she was a teenager when her first child was
born, she loved him a great deal and did the best she could. It is at best
unbecoming to be this unkind.

cybercat wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
> ...
>> cybercat wrote:
>>> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Mark D wrote:
>>>>> "I tend to think that Smith's death is the only hope the baby
>>>>> has." ======================================
>>>>> I truly pray that this Child will recieve the love in her life
>>>>> that her maternal mother, Anna Nicole would've bestowed upon her. Mark
>>>>
>>>> Right. After all, she did so well with her first child.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Who are you to judge? I hope people are as kind when you kick.
>>
>> What, are you judging me? LOL!!!
>>
>
> Point taken, but still. Although she was a teenager when her first
> child was born, she loved him a great deal and did the best she
> could. It is at best unbecoming to be this unkind.

IMO, her choices in life were poor, and for the most part she had full
control of those choices. Her love was not sufficient to make healthy
choices for the sake of her son, or to keep her son off of a
self-destructive and tragic path. And her new baby hadn't even lost the
stump of its cord when it was fully baptized into the cesspool of ANS's
life. I never applauded the death of this woman, nor did I hope for its
occurance. But I certainly don't feel badly that the new baby may have a
better shot at a healthy and positive upbringing without her mother than
with her.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:59:18 -0700, Pennyaline
> wrote:

>In short, her head was, in your own words, still attached.

but could you comb her hair?......

"-L." wrote:
>
> Couldn't have said it better myself. AN's best friend was on TV today
> and said she thinks Anna simply died of a broken heart. She was still
> devastated by Danny's death and wasn't coping well, at all. While
> Anna Nicole wasn't a role model by any means, she was one of the first
> contemporary plus-sized models and sex-symbol, and that's no small
> accomplishment in this world where Kate Moss is held up as a standard
> of beauty.


First of all...... plus size??????????/ Only her chest. She did get
chunky for a while.... really chunky, but she lost that and back that
lucious figure.

Second.... Kate Moss..... let's not get into that thing about women being
forced into starvation to fit men's images if the perfect body. That is a
distorted female image. On behalf of the men of the world I want to plead
to women. If you want to have a body to appeal to men, don't starve
yourselves to look like Kate Moss. Aim for something like Anna Nicole was
packing.

Dave Smith wrote:
> "-L." wrote:
>>
>
> Second.... Kate Moss..... let's not get into that thing about women
> being forced into starvation to fit men's images if the perfect body.
> That is a distorted female image. On behalf of the men of the world
> I want to plead to women. If you want to have a body to appeal to
> men, don't starve yourselves to look like Kate Moss. Aim for
> something like Anna Nicole was packing.

Wow, for once a man with taste! I'm not overweight, but I'm not a stick,
either. Even my husband says he likes a woman with FLESH on her. I'm 5'7"
and weigh (variably) between 150 - 155. Heck, I'm 40 years old and I'm
happy with that. Why do women up-to 6 feet tall feel they need to weigh 100
pounds? Um, that's not normal.

kili <------- once again stepping off her soapbox
--
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/kilikini

kilikini wrote:
>
>
> > Second.... Kate Moss..... let's not get into that thing about women
> > being forced into starvation to fit men's images if the perfect body.
> > That is a distorted female image. On behalf of the men of the world
> > I want to plead to women. If you want to have a body to appeal to
> > men, don't starve yourselves to look like Kate Moss. Aim for
> > something like Anna Nicole was packing.
>
> Wow, for once a man with taste! I'm not overweight, but I'm not a stick,
> either. Even my husband says he likes a woman with FLESH on her. I'm 5'7"
> and weigh (variably) between 150 - 155. Heck, I'm 40 years old and I'm
> happy with that. Why do women up-to 6 feet tall feel they need to weigh 100
> pounds? Um, that's not normal.

Not for once kilikini. I think that my tastes reflect those of most men. We
keep hearing about these skin and bone ideas being forced on women by men
and wonder where they get that idea. Most men want to see some curves and
have something to hold on to. When we look at a woman's chest, we want to
see boobs, not bony ribs.

On 2007-02-10, Dave Smith > wrote:

> forced into starvation to fit men's images if the perfect body. That is a
> distorted female image. On behalf of the men of the world I want to plead
> to women. If you want to have a body to appeal to men, don't starve
> yourselves to look like Kate Moss. Aim for something like Anna Nicole was
> packing.

Agreed, Dave. All these skeletor chicks are downright repulsive and
are an image women have imposed upon themselves. Granted, it's with
the coercion of the stupid fashion industry that parades out skeletors
on the runway and generates billboard/magazine ads by the score.
Someone should prosecute The Gap for child abuse with those perverse
ads. But you people continue to go to Lindsey Lohan movies and buy
mags and tabloids with the cadaver pack on the cover. Bottom line:
you buy it, they'll sell it.

nb

Ward Abbott > wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:59:18 -0700, Pennyaline
> wrote:
>
>>In short, her head was, in your own words, still attached.
>
>but could you comb her hair?......

Sure. Twenty yards up the road.

--Blair

"kilikini" > wrote :
>
> Wow, for once a man with taste! I'm not overweight, but I'm not a stick,
> either. Even my husband says he likes a woman with FLESH on her. I'm
> 5'7"
> and weigh (variably) between 150 - 155. Heck, I'm 40 years old and I'm
> happy with that. Why do women up-to 6 feet tall feel they need to weigh
> 100
> pounds? Um, that's not normal.

On the other hand, naturally slender women (not boney, just slim-hipped,
small breasted, naturally streamlined) should not feel they need to have
breast and ass implants to be sexy. I felt that pressure in my 20s, but
learned
to accept myself as I am later in life.

"Ward Abbott" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:59:18 -0700, Pennyaline
> > wrote:
>
>>In short, her head was, in your own words, still attached.
>
> but could you comb her hair?......

You are really creepy. She has living descendants you ass. Ever had anyone
close to you die in a gruesome accident?

"Dave Bugg" > wrote
>
> IMO, her choices in life were poor, and for the most part she had full
> control of those choices.

That's overly simplistic. I am not a "blame the parents" apologist,
but there are powerful circumstances that severely limit, if not
one's choices, at least one's ability to see the full range of them.

A powerful one is to either not have a father or mother in your
life or to have an abusive one or both.

Another is to be born with a propensity to substance abuse.

I've seen it too many times, and up close. And I still think it is ugly
of you to callously comment on things you really have no idea about
that the tabloids did not put in your head.

Have you actually seen her mother interviewed about her? She
clearly hated her and was envious of her even when she was
just a child.

"cybercat" > wrote in message
>
> Have you actually seen her mother interviewed about her? She
> clearly hated her and was envious of her even when she was
> just a child.
..
And ANS wanted it that way. As a child, she said she wanted to become
famous so she could make her parents look at her all the time. Thee is a
lot to the story that goes back to her parent's divorce.

cybercat wrote:

> "Dave Bugg" > wrote
>>
>> IMO, her choices in life were poor, and for the most part she had
>> full control of those choices.
>
> That's overly simplistic.

I see it as a summation of her life's choices. Now, we could list all of
those choices and debate whether she had "control" or was "forced" to live
as she did; and whether a good parent would make such choices when
responsible for the care and nurturing of a child. I prefer to cut to the
bottom line and say that her choices (and yes, these *were* choices) as a
parent were poor. And her continued lifestyle and choices were not conducive
to properly parenting a new baby.

> I am not a "blame the parents" apologist,
> but there are powerful circumstances that severely limit, if not
> one's choices, at least one's ability to see the full range of them.

That would only apply if she were living in a societal vacuum.

> A powerful one is to either not have a father or mother in your
> life or to have an abusive one or both.

And yet so many people, living under such circumstances, manage to go on to
lead happy, healthy and productive lives.

> Another is to be born with a propensity to substance abuse.

Propensity to substance abuse is an arguable concept. But what is not
arguable is that there is still a choice of whether to partake, or not.

> I've seen it too many times, and up close. And I still think it is
> ugly of you to callously comment on things you really have no idea
> about that the tabloids did not put in your head.

I'm sorry, but can you name what tabloids I read, 'cause I haven't been
getting my subscription. As far as seeing lives gone bad up close and
personal, I would guess that a lot of us have seen this. Some of us may have
even worked with such folk professionally.

> Have you actually seen her mother interviewed about her? She
> clearly hated her and was envious of her even when she was
> just a child.

Sure. And I've seen many adults who have survived far worse, with far less
resources, turn their meager scraps of a life into lives that are a model of
goodness. They are raising kids that are healthy and happy, and will likely
pass on a legacy of positive contributions to society.

I have argued about the best interests of a child. Instead of arguing that
ANS was a good parent whose lifestyle choices were a positive thing for a
child, you have instead outlined issues about ANS that are supportive of my
initial statement. To wit: the death of ANS will probably give the new baby
the best chance at a normal and healthy life.

I could care less about the choices ANS made and how she decided to live her
life. My argument was about her life as a damaging and destructive influence
on her children.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote
> And ANS wanted it that way. As a child, she said she wanted to become
> famous so she could make her parents look at her all the time.

Hmm, I had never heard that.

>Thee is a lot to the story that goes back to her parent's divorce.
It was my understanding that she never knew her father.

Ob food: fried up two lovely plump eggs and just before I turned them to
over-easy perfection, discovered we had no bread for toast!

What could I do but whip up a big fat fluffy corn cake and have it beside
them with butter and maple syrup?
It was one of those cornbread mixes in the packet. Mmm.

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:07:38 -0500, Dave Smith >
wrote:

>>
>Not for once kilikini. I think that my tastes reflect those of most men. We
>keep hearing about these skin and bone ideas being forced on women by men
>and wonder where they get that idea. Most men want to see some curves and
>have something to hold on to. When we look at a woman's chest, we want to
>see boobs, not bony ribs.

I'm reminded of the old Polish measure of beauty;

"If necessary, good woman should be able to pull plow"


<rj>

On the day of ANS death, a national news announcer commented;

"Tho ANS died today, we'd rather you remember Jane Doe (?).
She swam, jogged, and served her country..
Jane was killed in IRAQ today..... she was 20 years old."

I don't remember the name,
but I can't get the moment out of my mind.


<rj>

"Dave Bugg" > wrote
>>
>> That's overly simplistic.
>
> I see it as a summation of her life's choices.

It is incredibly arrogant of you to think you can sum up *anyone's* life
choices.

Now, we could list all of
> those choices and debate whether she had "control" or was "forced" to live
> as she did; and whether a good parent would make such choices when
> responsible for the care and nurturing of a child. I prefer to cut to the
> bottom line and say that her choices (and yes, these *were* choices) as a
> parent were poor. And her continued lifestyle and choices were not
> conducive to properly parenting a new baby.

I can see that you feel very comfortable making this judgment. I would not
be.
Whatever you can live with.

>
>> I am not a "blame the parents" apologist,
>> but there are powerful circumstances that severely limit, if not
>> one's choices, at least one's ability to see the full range of them.
>
> That would only apply if she were living in a societal vacuum.
>
>> A powerful one is to either not have a father or mother in your
>> life or to have an abusive one or both.
>
> And yet so many people, living under such circumstances, manage to go on
> to lead happy, healthy and productive lives.

And yet so many people, living under such circumstances, do not, and in fact
do much worse than take their clothes off for a pile of money and have tacky
taste in clothes and makeup.

>
>> Another is to be born with a propensity to substance abuse.
>
> Propensity to substance abuse is an arguable concept. But what is not
> arguable is that there is still a choice of whether to partake, or not.

Nearly every concept is "arguable." Current studies on serotonin and
other brain chemicals strongly support a hereditary disposition toward
getting wasted due to an imbalance of these natural tranquilizers.

>
>> I've seen it too many times, and up close. And I still think it is
>> ugly of you to callously comment on things you really have no idea
>> about that the tabloids did not put in your head.
>
> I'm sorry, but can you name what tabloids I read, 'cause I haven't been
> getting my subscription. As far as seeing lives gone bad up close and
> personal, I would guess that a lot of us have seen this. Some of us may
> have even worked with such folk professionally.

Again, you are simply not qualified to pronounce judgement on this woman
whose life you only know via the media--tabloids or otherwise. It is a
simple
point. Others of us see what we are being fed and wonder about the rest of
the story.

>
>> Have you actually seen her mother interviewed about her? She
>> clearly hated her and was envious of her even when she was
>> just a child.
>
> Sure. And I've seen many adults who have survived far worse, with far less
> resources, turn their meager scraps of a life into lives that are a model
> of goodness. They are raising kids that are healthy and happy, and will
> likely pass on a legacy of positive contributions to society.

"Models of goodness." I see. So, Vickie Hogan is suddenly a "model of
badness?"
And these "models of goodness" pop out children that are "healthy and happy,
and
will likely pass on a legacy of positive contributions to society," eh?
*Snort*
You seem to enjoy a tremendously simplistic, two-dimensional world. And you
*do* seem to blame/credit parents entirely for how children turn out.

>
> I have argued about the best interests of a child.

So your comments about this woman's choice in life were intended
to build the argument that her child is better off with her dead? Well,
there really is not much to say in response to that.

>Instead of arguing that ANS was a good parent whose lifestyle choices were
>a positive thing for a child,

Why would I argue that? I am not countering your absurd claim, I am
saying that you are not qualified to judge a woman you do not know.

>you have instead outlined issues about ANS that are supportive of my
>initial statement. To wit: the death of ANS will probably give the new baby
>the best chance at a normal and healthy life.

Of course I didn't. I said that there were many circumstances in her life
that complicated matters, and that you are not qualified to pronounce her
an unfit mother, or someone whose child is better off now that she is dead.
I don't even have to "argue" that, it is so damned obvious to everyone but
you.

From all accounts, she had a close and loving relationship with her son.
Many teenaged mothers do not develop this type of relationship with
their children. Some abuse them, some never develop maternal feelings
for them.

And some mothers who appear to be, oh let's see, how did you put it?
"models of goodness?" are very cold and unloving toward their children.
Proper in appearance, but unsupportive, and destructive to them.

Love is not all it takes, but it is a big part of it. Better a big blowsy
weird
wasted nude-posing, pole-dancing who adores you than a tight-assed little
Women's Club "model of goodness" who keeps her clothes on and her
heart empty of everything but what others think.


> I could care less about the choices ANS made and how she decided to live
> her life. My argument was about her life as a damaging and destructive
> influence on her children.
> --
> Dave

Your argument says a lot about you.

cybercat wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" > wrote
>>>
>>> That's overly simplistic.
>>
>> I see it as a summation of her life's choices.
>
> It is incredibly arrogant of you to think you can sum up *anyone's*
> life choices.

And it is incredibly apologetic of you to overlook those same choices.

>> Now, we could list all of
>> those choices and debate whether she had "control" or was "forced"
>> to live as she did; and whether a good parent would make such
>> choices when responsible for the care and nurturing of a child. I
>> prefer to cut to the bottom line and say that her choices (and yes,
>> these *were* choices) as a parent were poor. And her continued
>> lifestyle and choices were not conducive to properly parenting a new
>> baby.
>
> I can see that you feel very comfortable making this judgment. I
> would not be.
> Whatever you can live with.

Judgements are a part of life. It is not my judgement, but ANS's sad lack of
judgement that created her mess.

>>> I am not a "blame the parents" apologist,
>>> but there are powerful circumstances that severely limit, if not
>>> one's choices, at least one's ability to see the full range of them.
>>
>> That would only apply if she were living in a societal vacuum.
>>
>>> A powerful one is to either not have a father or mother in your
>>> life or to have an abusive one or both.
>>
>> And yet so many people, living under such circumstances, manage to
>> go on to lead happy, healthy and productive lives.
>
> And yet so many people, living under such circumstances, do not, and
> in fact do much worse than take their clothes off for a pile of money
> and have tacky taste in clothes and makeup.

Hmmm, is that a judgemental comment on her appearance?

>>> Another is to be born with a propensity to substance abuse.
>>
>> Propensity to substance abuse is an arguable concept. But what is not
>> arguable is that there is still a choice of whether to partake, or
>> not.
>
> Nearly every concept is "arguable." Current studies on serotonin and
> other brain chemicals strongly support a hereditary disposition toward
> getting wasted due to an imbalance of these natural tranquilizers.

And there are other studies which contradict those conclusions. In any
event, no study demonstrates a lack of the ability to choose.

>>> I've seen it too many times, and up close. And I still think it is
>>> ugly of you to callously comment on things you really have no idea
>>> about that the tabloids did not put in your head.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but can you name what tabloids I read, 'cause I haven't
>> been getting my subscription. As far as seeing lives gone bad up
>> close and personal, I would guess that a lot of us have seen this.
>> Some of us may have even worked with such folk professionally.
>
> Again, you are simply not qualified to pronounce judgement on this
> woman whose life you only know via the media--tabloids or otherwise.

If that is the case, then the converse is true: you are simply not qualified
to pronounce a judgement that her life had no effect on her child, and then
baby. There are facts that are well known about her life, and from those
facts one can easily discern whether those things have the potential to harm
a child or not.

> It is a simple
> point. Others of us see what we are being fed and wonder about the
> rest of the story.

And yet that is not what you are arguing for. I wonder what the whole story
is, too. But all I need is one taste of spoiled milk to determine if it's
yucky; I don't need to drink the whole carton of milk.

>>> Have you actually seen her mother interviewed about her? She
>>> clearly hated her and was envious of her even when she was
>>> just a child.
>>
>> Sure. And I've seen many adults who have survived far worse, with
>> far less resources, turn their meager scraps of a life into lives
>> that are a model of goodness. They are raising kids that are healthy
>> and happy, and will likely pass on a legacy of positive
>> contributions to society.
>
> "Models of goodness." I see. So, Vickie Hogan is suddenly a "model of
> badness?"

Sure. If you see otherwise, I guess that explains a lot about your mindset
in this thread.

> And these "models of goodness" pop out children that are "healthy and
> happy, and
> will likely pass on a legacy of positive contributions to society,"
> eh? *Snort*

My observation stands.

> You seem to enjoy a tremendously simplistic, two-dimensional world.

Why; because I refuse to accept self-destructive behavior as a role model
for children? It's my turn to snort.

> And you *do* seem to blame/credit parents entirely for how children
> turn out.

No. But you seem willing to give a pass on parent's behavior if it requires
being 'judgemental'.

>> I have argued about the best interests of a child.
>
> So your comments about this woman's choice in life were intended
> to build the argument that her child is better off with her dead?

No, that would imply that ANS's death should have been actively sought. My
argument is that since Smith *is* dead, that perhaps a positive outcome will
be a child growing up with a healthier lifestyle and a more normal
childhood.

> Well, there really is not much to say in response to that.
>
>> Instead of arguing that ANS was a good parent whose lifestyle
>> choices were a positive thing for a child,
>
> Why would I argue that? I am not countering your absurd claim, I am
> saying that you are not qualified to judge a woman you do not know.

But I am qualified, as any reasonably intelligent person is, to judge her
actions. Actions which can harm a child.

>> you have instead outlined issues about ANS that are supportive of my
>> initial statement. To wit: the death of ANS will probably give the
>> new baby the best chance at a normal and healthy life.
>
> Of course I didn't.

Sure you did. Go back and re-read.

> I said that there were many circumstances in her
> life that complicated matters,

And your list of those "complicated matters", as they impacted Smith, are
things which could absolutely impact her child.

> and that you are not qualified to
> pronounce her an unfit mother, or someone whose child is better off
> now that she is dead. I don't even have to "argue" that, it is so
> damned obvious to everyone but you.

Don't argue it. It doesn't matter one wit.

> From all accounts, she had a close and loving relationship with her
> son.

"From all accounts".... Gee, is it just me, or does this not sound
hypocritical? You can rely on the "from all accounts" information to press
your argument, but I'm not allowed to do the same?

> Many teenaged mothers do not develop this type of relationship
> with their children. Some abuse them, some never develop maternal feelings
> for them.

It seems that you are saying that teenage mothers should become topless
waitressess, as that will make you a loving mother?!!

> And some mothers who appear to be, oh let's see, how did you put it?
> "models of goodness?" are very cold and unloving toward their
> children. Proper in appearance, but unsupportive, and destructive to
> them.

But then they wouldn't really be models of goodness now would they? It's
never the "appearence" of goodness, but the actual character of the parent
that determines goodness.
>
> Love is not all it takes, but it is a big part of it. Better a big
> blowsy weird
> wasted nude-posing, pole-dancing who adores you than a tight-assed
> little Women's Club "model of goodness" who keeps her clothes on and
> her heart empty of everything but what others think.

Neither one is healthy. And that is not the choice. I never argued for poor
parents who fake "goodness" for appearence sake. That is your construct, not
mine.

>> I could care less about the choices ANS made and how she decided to
>> live her life. My argument was about her life as a damaging and
>> destructive influence on her children.

> Your argument says a lot about you.

And your argument sure says a lot about you.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com