Hi all,

In observance of Rosh Hashana in addition to my normal Friday night /
Saturday absence I'll be offline until probably Sunday. I apologize for not
answering any posts already made to me since my last visit, I'm a bit behind
on my preparations. I'll try to catch up when I return.

My New Year's wish to everyone here is for good health in all aspects.

all the best,

Ellen

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...

> In observance of Rosh Hashana in addition to my normal Friday night /
> Saturday absence I'll be offline until probably Sunday.

Happy New Year. I hope you will find something that works for you during
this important celebration. Enjoy your vacation from asd
Gys

May the New Year bring you peace

May it bring you joy

May it bring you love

Shalom

--
C.L. "Budd" Cochran
Pray for the Obama administration: Psalm 109:8
http://truefree1776.blogdrive.com/



"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
> In observance of Rosh Hashana in addition to my normal Friday night /
> Saturday absence I'll be offline until probably Sunday. I apologize for
> not answering any posts already made to me since my last visit, I'm a bit
> behind on my preparations. I'll try to catch up when I return.
>
> My New Year's wish to everyone here is for good health in all aspects.
>
>
> all the best,
>
> Ellen

On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 12:27:25 -0700, "Ellen K."
> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>In observance of Rosh Hashana in addition to my normal Friday night /
>Saturday absence I'll be offline until probably Sunday. I apologize for not
>answering any posts already made to me since my last visit, I'm a bit behind
>on my preparations. I'll try to catch up when I return.
>
>My New Year's wish to everyone here is for good health in all aspects.

Thankyou, Ellen. Hope the observance goes smoothly for you.

Happy New Year to everyone who celebrates it now!

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

"GysdeJongh" > wrote in message
...
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> In observance of Rosh Hashana in addition to my normal Friday night /
>> Saturday absence I'll be offline until probably Sunday.
>
> Happy New Year. I hope you will find something that works for you during
> this important celebration. Enjoy your vacation from asd
> Gys
>

Thanks.

The vacation from being online was very good. A recent NYT article
described a trip some researchers made where they were unplugged for about
four days and said afterwards that the experience was very beneficial for
their ability to think clearly etc.

As for managing my diabetes over the holiday, it was ok although not ideal,
but considering this was my first holiday since diagnosis I think I
shouldn't expect more than a learning experience. I completely skipped
dinner the second night, I just wasn't up for it. I'm starting to
understand a little more about what adjustments I have to make, one of which
is that I think I have to eat less overall at each holiday meal to keep the
meals around the same size as non-holiday ones, which means smaller portions
if I want to eat all the dishes. One interesting point was that while I
happily did *not* get any giant spike after the half-matzo-containing meals
(this time I slathered them with margarine and after the first meal I also
included a hardboiled egg with the first [fish] course) I did have higher
FBGs. The change of schedule as I mentioned elsewhere may be a complicating
etiological factor, also I seem to have some contact dermatitis on my right
hand, possibly from all the food preparation, which may have been driving up
my overall levels.

"C.L. "Budd" Cochran" > wrote in message
...
> May the New Year bring you peace
>
> May it bring you joy
>
> May it bring you love
>
> Shalom
>
> --
> C.L. "Budd" Cochran
> Pray for the Obama administration: Psalm 109:8
> http://truefree1776.blogdrive.com/
>

Thanks.


>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In observance of Rosh Hashana in addition to my normal Friday night /
>> Saturday absence I'll be offline until probably Sunday. I apologize for
>> not answering any posts already made to me since my last visit, I'm a bit
>> behind on my preparations. I'll try to catch up when I return.
>>
>> My New Year's wish to everyone here is for good health in all aspects.
>>
>> all the best,
>>
>> Ellen
>
>

"Nicky" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 12:27:25 -0700, "Ellen K."
> > wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>In observance of Rosh Hashana in addition to my normal Friday night /
>>Saturday absence I'll be offline until probably Sunday. I apologize for
>>not
>>answering any posts already made to me since my last visit, I'm a bit
>>behind
>>on my preparations. I'll try to catch up when I return.
>>
>>My New Year's wish to everyone here is for good health in all aspects.
>>
>
> Thankyou, Ellen. Hope the observance goes smoothly for you.
>

Thanks, Nicky.

I posted a little about it in my response to Gys.


> Happy New Year to everyone who celebrates it now!
>
> Nicky.
> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
> D&E, 150ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

Ellen K. wrote:
> I did have
> higher FBGs. The change of schedule as I mentioned elsewhere may be
> a complicating etiological factor, also I seem to have some contact
> dermatitis on my right hand, possibly from all the food preparation,
> which may have been driving up my overall levels.

Over the first 6 months of DX I found that I would occasionally throw a day
or two of higher overall levels for no apparent reason. Eating the same
range of foods, keeping pretty much the same schedule, same exercise, etc.
Frustrating, but it would then return to "normal"--also for no apparent
reason! <G>

As long as the trend is in the right direction, I think you have to figure
that your body is simply adjusting to weight loss, less stimulation of the
insulin-producing mechanism, etc.

On 9/13/2010 7:24 AM, Janet wrote:
> Ellen K. wrote:
>> I did have
>> higher FBGs. The change of schedule as I mentioned elsewhere may be
>> a complicating etiological factor, also I seem to have some contact
>> dermatitis on my right hand, possibly from all the food preparation,
>> which may have been driving up my overall levels.
>
> Over the first 6 months of DX I found that I would occasionally throw a day
> or two of higher overall levels for no apparent reason. Eating the same
> range of foods, keeping pretty much the same schedule, same exercise, etc.
> Frustrating, but it would then return to "normal"--also for no apparent
> reason!<G>
>
> As long as the trend is in the right direction, I think you have to figure
> that your body is simply adjusting to weight loss, less stimulation of the
> insulin-producing mechanism, etc.

We have no control over stress and other hormone variations. While
we may think they're a similar day, they're never quite the same
on many levels.

Ellen K. wrote:

> As for managing my diabetes over the holiday, it was ok although not
> ideal, but considering this was my first holiday since diagnosis I
> think I shouldn't expect more than a learning experience. I
> completely skipped dinner the second night, I just wasn't up for it.
> I'm starting to understand a little more about what adjustments I
> have to make, one of which is that I think I have to eat less overall
> at each holiday meal to keep the meals around the same size as
> non-holiday ones, which means smaller portions if I want to eat all
> the dishes.

Big success than, congratulations.
Very nice that you found a few tweaks that makes living with your condition
more acceptable

I do remember that I got scared a lot after my dx. I had never been
seriously ill in my life uptill then. But, after a while I found ways to
continue my life with very little unacceptable restrictions.

> One interesting point was that while I happily did *not*
> get any giant spike after the half-matzo-containing meals (this time
> I slathered them with margarine and after the first meal I also
> included a hardboiled egg with the first [fish] course) I did have
> higher FBGs.

Imo the FBG can only be used as a diagnostic tool under the ideal conditions
of fasting from about 23:00, a good night sleep of about 8h and taking a
value right after getting up. If I don't sleep well or very short because
I'm exited about what I'm going to do that day then my FBG might be a bit
off.

A lot of saturated fat like margarine does not cause a spike in post
prandial blood glucose but it does cause a spike in : 1) the post prandial
serum fatty acids, 2) the postprandial metabolic load and 3) in the
endothelial function 4) the oxidant status. These things will cause Insulin
resistance to rise. This is my view which (as you know by now, I guess) is
not shared by a lot of people in Asd.

> The change of schedule as I mentioned elsewhere may be
> a complicating etiological factor, also I seem to have some contact
> dermatitis on my right hand, possibly from all the food preparation,
> which may have been driving up my overall levels.

I hope you get it under control. If you go to the docter tell him that you
want to control your bg. He might prescribe a corticosteriod for the
dermatitis which might drive your bg up a bit

Gys

"GysdeJongh" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>
>> As for managing my diabetes over the holiday, it was ok although not
>> ideal, but considering this was my first holiday since diagnosis I
>> think I shouldn't expect more than a learning experience. I
>> completely skipped dinner the second night, I just wasn't up for it.
>> I'm starting to understand a little more about what adjustments I
>> have to make, one of which is that I think I have to eat less overall
>> at each holiday meal to keep the meals around the same size as
>> non-holiday ones, which means smaller portions if I want to eat all
>> the dishes.
>
> Big success than, congratulations.
> Very nice that you found a few tweaks that makes living with your
> condition more acceptable
>

Well, I'm way not there yet. I'm trying to keep my perfectionistic
tendencies in check though.

> I do remember that I got scared a lot after my dx. I had never been
> seriously ill in my life uptill then. But, after a while I found ways to
> continue my life with very little unacceptable restrictions.
>

I'm ok with how it currently goes during the week, but would like to have
better control on the sabbath and holidays. Also I have no idea what things
are going to be like with the next change in my work situation.

>> One interesting point was that while I happily did *not*
>> get any giant spike after the half-matzo-containing meals (this time
>> I slathered them with margarine and after the first meal I also
>> included a hardboiled egg with the first [fish] course) I did have
>> higher FBGs.
>
> Imo the FBG can only be used as a diagnostic tool under the ideal
> conditions of fasting from about 23:00, a good night sleep of about 8h and
> taking a value right after getting up. If I don't sleep well or very short
> because I'm exited about what I'm going to do that day then my FBG might
> be a bit off.
>

My FBG is lower the shorter the sleep time, however with the overall
improvement I am now sleeping so soundly that I rarely have a short night
any more. Plusses and minuses!

> A lot of saturated fat like margarine does not cause a spike in post
> prandial blood glucose but it does cause a spike in : 1) the post prandial
> serum fatty acids, 2) the postprandial metabolic load and 3) in the
> endothelial function 4) the oxidant status. These things will cause
> Insulin resistance to rise. This is my view which (as you know by now, I
> guess) is not shared by a lot of people in Asd.
>

The margarine I eat is supposedly designed to improve the lipids profile, 1
tbsp has 1.5 gm saturated fat, 0 trans fat, 0 hydrogenated or
partially-hydrogenated fat, 2 gm polyunsaturated fat, and 1.5 gm
monounsaturated fat, and contains 320 mg Omega-3 ALA. The oil blend base
is palm fruit oil, soybean oil, flaxseed oil, canola oil and olive oil.

I do get I guess a lot of saturated fat from my morning cheese and from the
eggs I also eat, but I also eat fish pretty much every day, nuts ditto,
avocado several times a week, and the only oil I use is olive oil. I almost
never eat red meat, I'm pretty sure the grassfed roast I made for Rosh
Hashana is the first red meat I bought in over a year.

Lipids as of July we
total cholesterol 157
triglycerides 149
HDL 43
LDL 84
HDL/LDL 51.2%
total chol / HDL 3.7
triglycerides to HDL 3.5


What do you mean above by "metabolic load", "the endothelial function" and
"the oxidant status"?

>> The change of schedule as I mentioned elsewhere may be
>> a complicating etiological factor, also I seem to have some contact
>> dermatitis on my right hand, possibly from all the food preparation,
>> which may have been driving up my overall levels.
>
> I hope you get it under control. If you go to the docter tell him that you
> want to control your bg. He might prescribe a corticosteriod for the
> dermatitis which might drive your bg up a bit
>

I would NEVER take an *oral* steroid for something like dermatitis. Do you
happen to know whether *topical* steroids (such as the OTC creams available
for such conditions) affect BG?

> Gys
>

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>> Lipids as of July we
>> total cholesterol 157
>> triglycerides 149
>> HDL 43
>> LDL 84
>> HDL/LDL 51.2%
>> total chol / HDL 3.7
>> triglycerides to HDL 3.5
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, those are considered to be excellent figures.
>
>

Those look like good numbers to me too. I would be very interested to see
her next lipid panel after low carbing.

Ellen, Please post your next lipid panel with this one for comparison. I
would make a very good example for everyone. Please do so even if your
numbers get worse. We need to know.

Michael

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>> Lipids as of July we
>> total cholesterol 157
>> triglycerides 149
>> HDL 43
>> LDL 84
>> HDL/LDL 51.2%
>> total chol / HDL 3.7
>> triglycerides to HDL 3.5
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, those are considered to be excellent figures.
>

It's the best overall reading I've ever had. Not sure how much to credit
the simvastatin. This represents what I was eating on the food exchange
diet, I am very interested to see the November numbers which will represent
the results of low-carbing.

As for being "excellent", well, the triglycerides are only 1 point below the
supposed "good" cutoff, HDL for women is recommended to be at least 50 (a
number I have never, ever reached, regardless of the rest of the numbers),
and someone here posted that triglycerides to HDL is recommended to be <
3... so while I am thrilled and thankful that these numbers were my personal
best, I think on an absolute basis they could still be improved.

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Janet" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ellen K. wrote:
>>> Lipids as of July we
>>> total cholesterol 157
>>> triglycerides 149
>>> HDL 43
>>> LDL 84
>>> HDL/LDL 51.2%
>>> total chol / HDL 3.7
>>> triglycerides to HDL 3.5
>>
>> Unless I'm mistaken, those are considered to be excellent figures.
>>
>>
>
> Those look like good numbers to me too. I would be very interested to see
> her next lipid panel after low carbing.
>
> Ellen, Please post your next lipid panel with this one for comparison. I
> would make a very good example for everyone. Please do so even if your
> numbers get worse. We need to know.
>
> Michael

I will plan to do that. Glad you find it useful.

Huh. I was evaluating my latest numbers based on the "comparison" figures
listed on my report. My latest figures aren't anywhere near as good as
yours, but they are within the acceptable range according to that. I should
dig it up....one thing I recall is that it was supposed to be desirable to
have an HDL above 40--no mention of 50 that I recall.

Anyway, although not as good as yours, my lipids were enormously improved
after 3 mos of low carbing combined with increased exercise and an effort to
increase Omega 3s.

Alan S wrote:
> I can hunt up a cite if you need it, but the usual recommendations are
>> 40 for a male and >50 for a female. I've forgotten why there is a
> gender difference.

Ack. Well, at least I am moving in the right direction. <G>

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Huh. I was evaluating my latest numbers based on the "comparison" figures
> listed on my report. My latest figures aren't anywhere near as good as
> yours, but they are within the acceptable range according to that. I
> should dig it up....one thing I recall is that it was supposed to be
> desirable to have an HDL above 40--no mention of 50 that I recall.
>

The 50 is for women. The 40 is for men.

> Anyway, although not as good as yours, my lipids were enormously improved
> after 3 mos of low carbing combined with increased exercise and an effort
> to increase Omega 3s.
>
>

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:00:03 +1000, Alan S
> wrote:

>I can hunt up a cite if you need it, but the usual recommendations are
>>40 for a male and >50 for a female. I've forgotten why there is a
>gender difference.

Because we're special :P

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

Ellen K. wrote:
> "GysdeJongh wrote

Hi Ellen,

> The margarine I eat is supposedly designed to improve the lipids
> profile, 1 tbsp has 1.5 gm saturated fat, 0 trans fat, 0 hydrogenated
> or partially-hydrogenated fat, 2 gm polyunsaturated fat, and 1.5 gm
> monounsaturated fat, and contains 320 mg Omega-3 ALA. The oil blend
> base is palm fruit oil, soybean oil, flaxseed oil, canola oil and
> olive oil.

Sounds very good, are there any added phytosterols ? In some margarines
phytosterols are added to improve lipids .

> I do get I guess a lot of saturated fat from my morning cheese and
> from the eggs I also eat, but I also eat fish pretty much every day,
> nuts ditto, avocado several times a week, and the only oil I use is
> olive oil. I almost never eat red meat, I'm pretty sure the grassfed
> roast I made for Rosh Hashana is the first red meat I bought in over
> a year.
>
> Lipids as of July we
> total cholesterol 157
> triglycerides 149
> HDL 43
> LDL 84
> HDL/LDL 51.2%
> total chol / HDL 3.7
> triglycerides to HDL 3.5

Thumbs up, you are a brand new girl ...

> What do you mean above by "metabolic load", "the endothelial
> function" and "the oxidant status"?

the metabolic load is the amount of calories per second that must be
processed by the mitochondria. If the metabolic load is too high the
mitochondria will produce so much free radicals that the scavenger system
cannot cope with it (oxidant status). The free radicals will damage the
lining of bloodvessels : the endothelium (inside, as opposed to epithelium
outside)

>>> The change of schedule as I mentioned elsewhere may be
>>> a complicating etiological factor, also I seem to have some contact
>>> dermatitis on my right hand, possibly from all the food preparation,
>>> which may have been driving up my overall levels.
>>
>> I hope you get it under control. If you go to the docter tell him
>> that you want to control your bg. He might prescribe a
>> corticosteriod for the dermatitis which might drive your bg up a bit
>>
>>
>
> I would NEVER take an *oral* steroid for something like dermatitis.
> Do you happen to know whether *topical* steroids (such as the OTC
> creams available for such conditions) affect BG?

for that kind of problem topical steroids might be prescribed. If the doctor
gives you a heavy one than it might have systemic effects. For all security
you might ask for something a bit less hightech. In Holland we don't have
OTC corticosteroids.

I hope your new job will be kind to your bg
Gys

"Nicky" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:00:03 +1000, Alan S
> > wrote:
>
>>I can hunt up a cite if you need it, but the usual recommendations are
>>>40 for a male and >50 for a female. I've forgotten why there is a
>>gender difference.
>
> Because we're special :P
>

<g>


> Nicky.
> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
> D&E, 150ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

"GysdeJongh" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>> "GysdeJongh wrote
>
> Hi Ellen,
>
>> The margarine I eat is supposedly designed to improve the lipids
>> profile, 1 tbsp has 1.5 gm saturated fat, 0 trans fat, 0 hydrogenated
>> or partially-hydrogenated fat, 2 gm polyunsaturated fat, and 1.5 gm
>> monounsaturated fat, and contains 320 mg Omega-3 ALA. The oil blend
>> base is palm fruit oil, soybean oil, flaxseed oil, canola oil and
>> olive oil.
>
> Sounds very good, are there any added phytosterols ? In some margarines
> phytosterols are added to improve lipids .
>

Here is the ingredient list. Note that in the US the ingredients are
required to be listed in order of their relative percentage of the whole.
(The reason water is the first ingredient is that I use the "light"
version.)

Water, natural oil blend (palm fruit, soybean, flaxseed, canola, and olive
oils), contains less than 2% of salt, natural and artificial flavor,
vegetable monoglycerides and sorbitan ester of fatty acids (emulsifiers),
soy lecithin, dl-a-tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), vitamin A palmitate,
lactic acid, beta-carotene color, and potassium sorbate, TBHQ and calcium
disoldium EDTA (to preserve freshness).

I don't eat it during the week usually.

>> I do get I guess a lot of saturated fat from my morning cheese and
>> from the eggs I also eat, but I also eat fish pretty much every day,
>> nuts ditto, avocado several times a week, and the only oil I use is
>> olive oil. I almost never eat red meat, I'm pretty sure the grassfed
>> roast I made for Rosh Hashana is the first red meat I bought in over
>> a year.
>>
>> Lipids as of July we
>> total cholesterol 157
>> triglycerides 149
>> HDL 43
>> LDL 84
>> HDL/LDL 51.2%
>> total chol / HDL 3.7
>> triglycerides to HDL 3.5
>
> Thumbs up, you are a brand new girl ...
>
>> What do you mean above by "metabolic load", "the endothelial
>> function" and "the oxidant status"?
>
> the metabolic load is the amount of calories per second that must be
> processed by the mitochondria. If the metabolic load is too high the
> mitochondria will produce so much free radicals that the scavenger system
> cannot cope with it (oxidant status). The free radicals will damage the
> lining of bloodvessels : the endothelium (inside, as opposed to epithelium
> outside)
>

Why wouldn't including fat in a meal cause the calories to be absorbed more
slowly and therefore DECREASE the metabolic load?

>>>> The change of schedule as I mentioned elsewhere may be
>>>> a complicating etiological factor, also I seem to have some contact
>>>> dermatitis on my right hand, possibly from all the food preparation,
>>>> which may have been driving up my overall levels.
>>>
>>> I hope you get it under control. If you go to the docter tell him
>>> that you want to control your bg. He might prescribe a
>>> corticosteriod for the dermatitis which might drive your bg up a bit
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I would NEVER take an *oral* steroid for something like dermatitis.
>> Do you happen to know whether *topical* steroids (such as the OTC
>> creams available for such conditions) affect BG?
>
> for that kind of problem topical steroids might be prescribed. If the
> doctor gives you a heavy one than it might have systemic effects. For all
> security you might ask for something a bit less hightech. In Holland we
> don't have OTC corticosteroids.
>

The OTC products that contain steroids are itch creams and are only allowed
to contain a very small amount, I think maybe half a percent or something.

IAC the area of the rash is thankfully much improved.

> I hope your new job will be kind to your bg

Thanks. I first have to *find* new work, the consulting project
I've been working on for the past ~year and a half is winding down. I'm
planning to start looking after the rest of the holidays are over. (We have
more coming up over the rest of September.)

> Gys
>

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:21:17 +0100, Nicky wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:00:03 +1000, Alan S
> > wrote:
>
>>I can hunt up a cite if you need it, but the usual recommendations are
>>>40 for a male and >50 for a female. I've forgotten why there is a
>>gender difference.
>
> Because we're special :P

Vive la différance :-)

> Nicky.
> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
> D&E, 150ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Alan S" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:45:01 -0700, "Ellen K."
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Here is the ingredient list. Note that in the US the ingredients are
>>>required to be listed in order of their relative percentage of the
>>>whole.
>>>(The reason water is the first ingredient is that I use the "light"
>>>version.)
>>>
>>>Water, natural oil blend (palm fruit, soybean, flaxseed, canola, and
>>>olive
>>>oils), contains less than 2% of salt, natural and artificial flavor,
>>>vegetable monoglycerides and sorbitan ester of fatty acids
>>>(emulsifiers),
>>>soy lecithin, dl-a-tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), vitamin A
>>>palmitate,
>>>lactic acid, beta-carotene color, and potassium sorbate, TBHQ and
>>>calcium
>>>disoldium EDTA (to preserve freshness).
>>
>> Here is the ingredients list for my similar spreadable oil-of-choice:
>> Cream, water, salt.
>>
>> The label on the front says: Butter.
>>
>
> Unfortunately I can't use butter at a meat meal.

May I ask why?

In alt.support.diabetes Ozgirl > wrote:


: "Ellen K." > wrote in message
: ...
: >
: > "Alan S" > wrote in message
: > ...
: >> On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:45:01 -0700, "Ellen K."
: >> > wrote:
: >>
: >>>Here is the ingredient list. Note that in the US the ingredients are
: >>>required to be listed in order of their relative percentage of the
: >>>whole.
: >>>(The reason water is the first ingredient is that I use the "light"
: >>>version.)
: >>>
: >>>Water, natural oil blend (palm fruit, soybean, flaxseed, canola, and
: >>>olive
: >>>oils), contains less than 2% of salt, natural and artificial flavor,
: >>>vegetable monoglycerides and sorbitan ester of fatty acids
: >>>(emulsifiers),
: >>>soy lecithin, dl-a-tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), vitamin A
: >>>palmitate,
: >>>lactic acid, beta-carotene color, and potassium sorbate, TBHQ and
: >>>calcium
: >>>disoldium EDTA (to preserve freshness).
: >>
: >> Here is the ingredients list for my similar spreadable oil-of-choice:
: >> Cream, water, salt.
: >>
: >> The label on the front says: Butter.
: >>
: >
: > Unfortunately I can't use butter at a meat meal.

: May I ask why?
:

We do not mix meat and milk either in the same dishor meal and there are
also various restrictions on how soon one can eat milk products fter
eating meat. These times vary by the customs of the vaarious communities
of Jews and the countries of their originie, Eastern europe, Holland,
Germany, Middle eaast, etc. The rule goes back to the phrase in the bible
"do not seethe the kid in its mother's milk. this is repeated three
times in the Torah( 5 books of Moses) so is taken qute seriously. As a
result, observant Jews do not eat cheeseburgers, creamed chipped beef,
buttery cake with a meat meal, etc.

This matter is taken so seriously that observant Jews will have separate
dishes, silverware and pots , one for meat dishes and one for dairy, as
well as many other details strmming from that.

Wendy

Ellen K. wrote:
> GysdeJongh wrote

> Water, natural oil blend (palm fruit, soybean, flaxseed, canola, and
> olive oils), contains less than 2% of salt, natural and artificial
> flavor, vegetable monoglycerides and sorbitan ester of fatty acids
> (emulsifiers), soy lecithin, dl-a-tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E),
> vitamin A palmitate, lactic acid, beta-carotene color, and potassium
> sorbate, TBHQ and calcium disoldium EDTA (to preserve freshness).

good stuff, but no phytosterols. There now is what Quentin used to call the
yuppy margarine with added phytosterols. I'm not implying that it is healthy
but here is an abstract :

Metabolism. 2002 Feb;51(2):189-94.
Effects of phytosterol ester-enriched margarine on plasma lipoproteins in
mild to moderate hypercholesterolemia are related to basal cholesterol and
fat intake.
Dietary phytosterols have been reported to lower total and low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. The improvements of LDL, HDL, total
cholesterol, apolipoprotein B concentrations, and LDL/HDL cholesterol ratio
during the daily consumption of a phytosterol ester-enriched margarine were
most marked in those subjects with a high dietary intake of cholesterol,
energy, total fat, and saturated fatty acids and with high baseline
cholesterol absorption.
PMID: 11833047

> Why wouldn't including fat in a meal cause the calories to be
> absorbed more slowly and therefore DECREASE the metabolic load?

there is more than 1 peak : glucose, fat, insulin, calories etc. We only
measure the first. If we include fat the glucose peak might be later, but
there still is a fat peak (which we don't see). The fat peak will be smaller
if we include less fat in our meal. All theory

Gys

"GysdeJongh" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>> GysdeJongh wrote
>
>> Water, natural oil blend (palm fruit, soybean, flaxseed, canola, and
>> olive oils), contains less than 2% of salt, natural and artificial
>> flavor, vegetable monoglycerides and sorbitan ester of fatty acids
>> (emulsifiers), soy lecithin, dl-a-tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E),
>> vitamin A palmitate, lactic acid, beta-carotene color, and potassium
>> sorbate, TBHQ and calcium disoldium EDTA (to preserve freshness).
>
> good stuff, but no phytosterols. There now is what Quentin used to call
> the yuppy margarine with added phytosterols. I'm not implying that it is
> healthy but here is an abstract :
>
> Metabolism. 2002 Feb;51(2):189-94.
> Effects of phytosterol ester-enriched margarine on plasma lipoproteins in
> mild to moderate hypercholesterolemia are related to basal cholesterol and
> fat intake.
> Dietary phytosterols have been reported to lower total and low-density
> lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. The improvements of LDL, HDL, total
> cholesterol, apolipoprotein B concentrations, and LDL/HDL cholesterol
> ratio during the daily consumption of a phytosterol ester-enriched
> margarine were most marked in those subjects with a high dietary intake of
> cholesterol, energy, total fat, and saturated fatty acids and with high
> baseline cholesterol absorption.
> PMID: 11833047
>

The abstract says its conclusions apply to daily consumption. Do you think
this is important enough to switch if I'm only eating two servings a week?

>> Why wouldn't including fat in a meal cause the calories to be
>> absorbed more slowly and therefore DECREASE the metabolic load?
>
> there is more than 1 peak : glucose, fat, insulin, calories etc. We only
> measure the first. If we include fat the glucose peak might be later, but
> there still is a fat peak (which we don't see). The fat peak will be
> smaller if we include less fat in our meal. All theory
>

This is getting to be too many things to worry about.

> Gys
>

In alt.support.diabetes GysdeJongh > wrote:
> Ellen K. wrote:

>> Why wouldn't including fat in a meal cause the calories to be
>> absorbed more slowly and therefore DECREASE the metabolic load?

> there is more than 1 peak : glucose, fat, insulin, calories etc. We only
> measure the first. If we include fat the glucose peak might be later, but
> there still is a fat peak (which we don't see). The fat peak will be smaller
> if we include less fat in our meal. All theory

According to my understanding of the theory too the second peak in the
pizza effect will always be smaller (in non-insulin-using T2s) who
aren't eating peculiarly large amounts of fat, but it's an imprecise
qualitative theory with plenty of room for improvement. In my own case
when doing a full graph of my BG response to my standard meals and
snacks I've never seen a secondary peak come within 20 points of the
first peak. So in general when doing minimal testing it would be safe
to control for the first peak and ignore the second, providing I
didn't assume there it wasn't there and added a small snack or late
dessert on top of it.

I have however seen some people report pizza effects in which the
second peak was larger. If larger second peaks form part of any
non-insulin-using T2's experience here I'd be interested in the
details.

--
Chris Malcolm

Ellen K. wrote:
> GysdeJongh wrote

> The abstract says its conclusions apply to daily consumption. Do you
> think this is important enough to switch if I'm only eating two
> servings a week?

don't think so, bit expensive too

> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.

+1

Chris Malcolm wrote

> GysdeJongh wrote

> According to my understanding of the theory too the second peak in the
> pizza effect will always be smaller

mental block ???

this is about the _Fat_ peak

_Not_ about the glucose peak

which you don't measure but still exists

Ellen K. wrote:

> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.

By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long ago!
<G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are made of
sterner stuff than I. <G>

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>
>> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.
>
> By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long ago!
> <G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are made of
> sterner stuff than I. <G>
>

It's just the nature of the beast. I've basically worked with data most of
my adult life. After 20 years in accounting and finance I transitioned into
software development and related work.

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Janet" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ellen K. wrote:
>>
>>> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.
>>
>> By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long ago!
>> <G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are made of
>> sterner stuff than I. <G>
>>
>
> It's just the nature of the beast. I've basically worked with data most
> of my adult life. After 20 years in accounting and finance I transitioned
> into software development and related work.

Ellen, I see you have worked in software. I wrote applications in C++ as
part of my job in engineering. What language did you use?

Michael
>

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Ellen K. wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.
>>>
>>> By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long ago!
>>> <G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are made of
>>> sterner stuff than I. <G>
>>>
>>
>> It's just the nature of the beast. I've basically worked with data most
>> of my adult life. After 20 years in accounting and finance I
>> transitioned into software development and related work.
>
> Ellen, I see you have worked in software. I wrote applications in C++ as
> part of my job in engineering. What language did you use?
>
> Michael
>>

SQL is my strong suit. Unlike procedural or object-oriented languages it
works with data setwise as opposed to with one instance of a data object at
a time. This is a very different way of thinking, and extremely powerful
when used as designed. Front-end programmers who write SQL tend to use it
to still only work with one instance of an object at a time, then they
wonder why the performance of the application leaves so much to be desired.

C was the first language I learned, then C++, but I never used either of
them in a production environment. I liked C because it was so economical
and because it gave the programmer full control. The front-end programming
I have done in a production environment was all VB.

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Ellen K. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.
>>>>
>>>> By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long
>>>> ago! <G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are made
>>>> of sterner stuff than I. <G>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's just the nature of the beast. I've basically worked with data
>>> most of my adult life. After 20 years in accounting and finance I
>>> transitioned into software development and related work.
>>
>> Ellen, I see you have worked in software. I wrote applications in C++ as
>> part of my job in engineering. What language did you use?
>>
>> Michael
>>>
>
> SQL is my strong suit. Unlike procedural or object-oriented languages it
> works with data setwise as opposed to with one instance of a data object
> at a time. This is a very different way of thinking, and extremely
> powerful when used as designed. Front-end programmers who write SQL tend
> to use it to still only work with one instance of an object at a time,
> then they wonder why the performance of the application leaves so much to
> be desired.
>
> C was the first language I learned, then C++, but I never used either of
> them in a production environment. I liked C because it was so economical
> and because it gave the programmer full control. The front-end
> programming I have done in a production environment was all VB.

Well, you know a lot more about programming than myself. My first experience
was in the 60s with fortran used in the program for setting up the ballistic
track for the missiles launched from subs. I only did one thing. Just the
guidance programming.

I hated that work and moved on to electronics design. I realized in the 80s
that I was not going to be much of an engineer unless I could do
programming. So I taught myself the easiest one, C++. I did not write
anything really large at all. Most were small little things for specific
jobs at the medical school. I think the largest one I ever wrote had about 5
thousand lines of source code.

Michael
>

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Boomer" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Ellen K. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.
>>>>>
>>>>> By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long
>>>>> ago! <G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are
>>>>> made of sterner stuff than I. <G>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's just the nature of the beast. I've basically worked with data
>>>> most of my adult life. After 20 years in accounting and finance I
>>>> transitioned into software development and related work.
>>>
>>> Ellen, I see you have worked in software. I wrote applications in C++ as
>>> part of my job in engineering. What language did you use?
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>>
>>
>> SQL is my strong suit. Unlike procedural or object-oriented languages it
>> works with data setwise as opposed to with one instance of a data object
>> at a time. This is a very different way of thinking, and extremely
>> powerful when used as designed. Front-end programmers who write SQL
>> tend to use it to still only work with one instance of an object at a
>> time, then they wonder why the performance of the application leaves so
>> much to be desired.
>>
>> C was the first language I learned, then C++, but I never used either of
>> them in a production environment. I liked C because it was so
>> economical and because it gave the programmer full control. The
>> front-end programming I have done in a production environment was all VB.
>
> Well, you know a lot more about programming than myself.

I dunno how you figure that!

> My first experience was in the 60s with fortran used in the program for
> setting up the ballistic track for the missiles launched from subs. I only
> did one thing. Just the guidance programming.
>

That's a very big deal!

> I hated that work and moved on to electronics design. I realized in the
> 80s that I was not going to be much of an engineer unless I could do
> programming. So I taught myself the easiest one, C++.

I'd love to hear why you thought C++ was the easiest, in many circles it's
considered the only language "real" programmers use.

> I did not write anything really large at all. Most were small little
> things for specific jobs at the medical school. I think the largest one I
> ever wrote had about 5 thousand lines of source code.
>

My big project for my last employer was over 100,000 lines, it was a suite
of analytical reports that were generated once a week. The company's data
resided at that time in an antiquated data store that could not be addressed
with any SQL beyond the most simple queries (there was a tool that sat on
top of it to enable SQL to be used *at all*), so I had to write a lot of the
logic in VB... the reports were delivered as multi-sheet Excel workbooks so
a lot of that code was just using the Excel object model. IOW maybe more
code than actual logic. <g but serious>

> Michael
>>

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
news
>
> "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Boomer" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Ellen K. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long
>>>>>> ago! <G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are
>>>>>> made of sterner stuff than I. <G>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just the nature of the beast. I've basically worked with data
>>>>> most of my adult life. After 20 years in accounting and finance I
>>>>> transitioned into software development and related work.
>>>>
>>>> Ellen, I see you have worked in software. I wrote applications in C++
>>>> as part of my job in engineering. What language did you use?
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>
>>> SQL is my strong suit. Unlike procedural or object-oriented languages
>>> it works with data setwise as opposed to with one instance of a data
>>> object at a time. This is a very different way of thinking, and
>>> extremely powerful when used as designed. Front-end programmers who
>>> write SQL tend to use it to still only work with one instance of an
>>> object at a time, then they wonder why the performance of the
>>> application leaves so much to be desired.
>>>
>>> C was the first language I learned, then C++, but I never used either of
>>> them in a production environment. I liked C because it was so
>>> economical and because it gave the programmer full control. The
>>> front-end programming I have done in a production environment was all
>>> VB.
>>
>> Well, you know a lot more about programming than myself.
>
> I dunno how you figure that!

Because of all the experience you have had. Most of my programming with C++
was done as a side issue to insure equipment worked easily for everyone.

>
>> My first experience was in the 60s with fortran used in the program for
>> setting up the ballistic track for the missiles launched from subs. I
>> only did one thing. Just the guidance programming.
>>
>
> That's a very big deal!

Well it might have been a big deal for some but for me it was a form of
agony. I was only chosen because of my security clearance. They give you
massive complicated charts to write code for certain targets. It was
incredibly painstaking work. Back then it had to be done right on the boat.
We did not take a floppy drive or something and then install it later after
doing it leasurely in an office. At that time there was an extreme shortage
of programmers. I had to work 6 days a week 12 hours per day. There was no
one to check my work. I figured that if I made a mistake, no one would come
look for me after the war. I realize that was rather callous but I knew it
was the bottom line.

All it had to do really was not show a fault when we went out for sea trials
and went all the way to push the last button. If the autopilot went smoothly
and no fault showed from the bird, all was well.

>
>> I hated that work and moved on to electronics design. I realized in the
>> 80s that I was not going to be much of an engineer unless I could do
>> programming. So I taught myself the easiest one, C++.
>
> I'd love to hear why you thought C++ was the easiest, in many circles it's
> considered the only language "real" programmers use.

Also, if you program in a vacuum like I did, you assume every other
programmer is better and faster than yourself.


I read that it was considered easier to do than C. I looked at it and it
made sense to me. However, I was the only programmer at the university. When
things did not work, I had to figure it out myself. I really wanted someone
to work with. No such budget existed. I suppose that C++ looked so much
easier than Fortran too. Basically besides the hardware hooks, it is just a
bunch of "if then else" stuff. My problem was often getting too many nested
"if thens". I would disappear into a black hole way past the event horizon.
>
>> I did not write anything really large at all. Most were small little
>> things for specific jobs at the medical school. I think the largest one I
>> ever wrote had about 5 thousand lines of source code.

The game writers are the real geniuses. I could never do that. A typical
project for me was to integrate all the equipment in a surgical suite. That
just meant bringing in all the serial control lines to a central computer
and putting the information up on a touch panel. The surgical team could
push touch panel buttons to make things happen. I also wrote little
algorithms that the surgeons would give me. Like the warm up time for a
heart patient coming out of being chilled. This would automate their work
and insure that it was done as they wanted it done. This was always a moving
target so these algorithms would be constantly changed. It was actually
fairly simple. Sometimes it was tricky getting the serial lines talking.
Setting buffers and parsing the incoming sometimes made me a little crazy.
>>
>
> My big project for my last employer was over 100,000 lines, it was a suite
> of analytical reports that were generated once a week. The company's data
> resided at that time in an antiquated data store that could not be
> addressed with any SQL beyond the most simple queries (there was a tool
> that sat on top of it to enable SQL to be used *at all*), so I had to
> write a lot of the logic in VB... the reports were delivered as
> multi-sheet Excel workbooks so a lot of that code was just using the Excel
> object model. IOW maybe more code than actual logic. <g but serious>


Oh God, I can't imagine sitting down to write a 100 thousand lines of code.
>
>> Michael
>>>
>

In alt.support.diabetes GysdeJongh > wrote:
> Chris Malcolm wrote
>> GysdeJongh wrote

I had to restore the context you snipped in order to understand your
response.

>>> Ellen K. wrote:

>>> Why wouldn't including fat in a meal cause the calories to be
>>> absorbed more slowly and therefore DECREASE the metabolic load?

>> there is more than 1 peak : glucose, fat, insulin, calories etc. We only
>> measure the first. If we include fat the glucose peak might be later, but
>> there still is a fat peak (which we don't see). The fat peak will be smaller
>> if we include less fat in our meal. All theory

> According to my understanding of the theory too the second peak in the
> pizza effect will always be smaller (in non-insulin-using T2s) who
> aren't eating peculiarly large amounts of fat, but it's an imprecise
> qualitative theory with plenty of room for improvement. In my own case
> when doing a full graph of my BG response to my standard meals and
> snacks I've never seen a secondary peak come within 20 points of the
> first peak. So in general when doing minimal testing it would be safe
> to control for the first peak and ignore the second, providing I
> didn't assume there it wasn't there and added a small snack or late
> dessert on top of it.

> mental block ???

> this is about the _Fat_ peak

OK, not a mental block, just a misunderstanding. I have always assumed
the pizza effect to refer to a second later BG peak as I think most
here also do. I hadn't realised you had changed the subject.

> _Not_ about the glucose peak

> which you don't measure but still exists

--
Chris Malcolm

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> GysdeJongh wrote:

> I had to restore the context you snipped in
> order to understand your response

Hi Chris,
thank you for restoring the context and my appologies that I did not do so
myself.
Gys

Ellen K. wrote:

> I'd love to hear why you thought C++ was the easiest, in many circles
> it's considered the only language "real" programmers use.

Hah. "Real" programmers use assembler. <G>

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> news
>>
>> "Boomer" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "Boomer" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Ellen K. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is getting to be too many things to worry about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By doG, I thought you'd never get to that point. (I reached it long
>>>>>>> ago! <G>) Seriously, your attention to detail has awed me. You are
>>>>>>> made of sterner stuff than I. <G>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just the nature of the beast. I've basically worked with data
>>>>>> most of my adult life. After 20 years in accounting and finance I
>>>>>> transitioned into software development and related work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ellen, I see you have worked in software. I wrote applications in C++
>>>>> as part of my job in engineering. What language did you use?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SQL is my strong suit. Unlike procedural or object-oriented languages
>>>> it works with data setwise as opposed to with one instance of a data
>>>> object at a time. This is a very different way of thinking, and
>>>> extremely powerful when used as designed. Front-end programmers who
>>>> write SQL tend to use it to still only work with one instance of an
>>>> object at a time, then they wonder why the performance of the
>>>> application leaves so much to be desired.
>>>>
>>>> C was the first language I learned, then C++, but I never used either
>>>> of them in a production environment. I liked C because it was so
>>>> economical and because it gave the programmer full control. The
>>>> front-end programming I have done in a production environment was all
>>>> VB.
>>>
>>> Well, you know a lot more about programming than myself.
>>
>> I dunno how you figure that!
>
> Because of all the experience you have had. Most of my programming with
> C++ was done as a side issue to insure equipment worked easily for
> everyone.
>
>>
>>> My first experience was in the 60s with fortran used in the program for
>>> setting up the ballistic track for the missiles launched from subs. I
>>> only did one thing. Just the guidance programming.
>>>
>>
>> That's a very big deal!
>
> Well it might have been a big deal for some but for me it was a form of
> agony. I was only chosen because of my security clearance. They give you
> massive complicated charts to write code for certain targets. It was
> incredibly painstaking work. Back then it had to be done right on the
> boat. We did not take a floppy drive or something and then install it
> later after doing it leasurely in an office. At that time there was an
> extreme shortage of programmers. I had to work 6 days a week 12 hours per
> day. There was no one to check my work. I figured that if I made a
> mistake, no one would come look for me after the war. I realize that was
> rather callous but I knew it was the bottom line.
>
> All it had to do really was not show a fault when we went out for sea
> trials and went all the way to push the last button. If the autopilot went
> smoothly and no fault showed from the bird, all was well.
>

The work I recently finished up included data quality analysis from which it
was painfully obvious that the "testing" performed on the homegrown
applications consisted of a) do the users see what they expect in the GUI;
and b) does anything crash, and as long as the answer to a) was yes and b)
was no, the app was accepted. Being a dinosaur, I really think
"information" is the important word in "information technology".

>>
>>> I hated that work and moved on to electronics design. I realized in the
>>> 80s that I was not going to be much of an engineer unless I could do
>>> programming. So I taught myself the easiest one, C++.
>>
>> I'd love to hear why you thought C++ was the easiest, in many circles
>> it's considered the only language "real" programmers use.
>
> Also, if you program in a vacuum like I did, you assume every other
> programmer is better and faster than yourself.
>
>
> I read that it was considered easier to do than C. I looked at it and it
> made sense to me. However, I was the only programmer at the university.
> When things did not work, I had to figure it out myself. I really wanted
> someone to work with. No such budget existed. I suppose that C++ looked so
> much easier than Fortran too. Basically besides the hardware hooks, it is
> just a bunch of "if then else" stuff. My problem was often getting too
> many nested "if thens". I would disappear into a black hole way past the
> event horizon.

Heh, a case could be made that most programming in ANY language is a "bunch
of if then else stuff".

>>
>>> I did not write anything really large at all. Most were small little
>>> things for specific jobs at the medical school. I think the largest one
>>> I ever wrote had about 5 thousand lines of source code.
>
> The game writers are the real geniuses.

They certainly have a lot more GUI stuff to manage.

> I could never do that. A typical project for me was to integrate all the
> equipment in a surgical suite. That just meant bringing in all the serial
> control lines to a central computer and putting the information up on a
> touch panel. The surgical team could push touch panel buttons to make
> things happen. I also wrote little algorithms that the surgeons would give
> me. Like the warm up time for a heart patient coming out of being chilled.
> This would automate their work and insure that it was done as they wanted
> it done. This was always a moving target so these algorithms would be
> constantly changed. It was actually fairly simple. Sometimes it was tricky
> getting the serial lines talking. Setting buffers and parsing the incoming
> sometimes made me a little crazy.
>>>
>>
>> My big project for my last employer was over 100,000 lines, it was a
>> suite of analytical reports that were generated once a week. The
>> company's data resided at that time in an antiquated data store that
>> could not be addressed with any SQL beyond the most simple queries (there
>> was a tool that sat on top of it to enable SQL to be used *at all*), so I
>> had to write a lot of the logic in VB... the reports were delivered as
>> multi-sheet Excel workbooks so a lot of that code was just using the
>> Excel object model. IOW maybe more code than actual logic. <g but
>> serious>
>
>
> Oh God, I can't imagine sitting down to write a 100 thousand lines of
> code.


Well, I didn't sit down to write 100K lines of code, I sat down to create
the reports the directors wanted, the amount of code was just how much it
took to accomplish that goal.
>>
>>> Michael
>>>>
>>