I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with diet
alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost his
excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health. The
research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make their
own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think Eskimos
and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
bagels, cereals, corn etc.

The questions a

Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
need LESS insulin?
Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
needed?

Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.

Thank you for your time.......

"L. Conrad" > wrote in message
...
: I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
: diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with
diet
: alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost
his
: excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
: under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
: will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
: are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health.
The
: research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make
their
: own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think
Eskimos
: and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
: They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
: bagels, cereals, corn etc.
:
: The questions a
:
: Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
: adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?

That very much depends on the diabetic. Anyone who says otherwise is
very wrong. I'm case in point. As a T1, I NEED the carbs to keep my liver
stored with glucose for when I inject and perhaps don't eat enough or go
for a longer walk after and head towards a low. Stored glucose in my liver
will stop the low for me.

There is no such thing of a "near no carb diet" Everything has carbs in it
except
water and yes, carbs are needed for proper health and nutrition. Eating 20
big
macs a day isn't healthy. But fresh peas and corn is very healthy and
packed
full of needed vitamins.

: Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
: need LESS insulin?

Again depends on the diabetic. There are some that can eat a low carb diet
and still need higher then average insulin. Depends on the persons
metabolism.
If they're eating 300gm a day and needing 100u a day of insulin, then yes,
reducing
carbs will decrease insulin.

: Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?

Depends again on the diabetic. If they are IDDM (someone that has NO
natural
insulin production) not just someone taking Insulin (there is a difference)
Then no,
less insulin would be eventually deadly for them! This is why, while it's
great you
want to help your family and friends you aren't their doctor and have no
idea of
their overall medical situation and suggesting to a IDDM they take less
Insulin would
land them in DKA, coma or death if you're wrong.

For someone like Julie Bove, a regular poster here who makes plenty of their
own
insulin, then going on Insulin can be two-fold. 1) it could make her own
pancreas
stop producing insulin and she'd rely solely on injected to control her
glucose. or
2) she could continue to produce her own insulin and then stack more insulin
on
top of that by injection which would cause further trouble with control.

Too much insulin isn't healthy for the heart period. that's why T2's are
more proned
to heart problems because T2 is a problem with TOO MUCH insulin, NOT a lack
like
a T1's problem.

: Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
: needed?

Yes. Can it be done safely? Depends, the person should work closely with
their doctor
if they've never done it before or been counceled on it by a medical
professional.

:
: Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
:
: Thank you for your time.......
:

--
Reisa, T1
dx-5/00 asd-7/00
Animas IR1250 pumper
Daily CHO: 150-200gm
TDD: 36-38u
Last A1C: 6.1 (1/12/07)

In alt.support.diabetes L. Conrad > wrote:
: I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
: diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with diet
: alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost his
: excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
: under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
: will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
: are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health. The
: research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make their
: own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think Eskimos
: and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
: They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
: bagels, cereals, corn etc.

: The questions a

: Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
: adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
: Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
: need LESS insulin?
: Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
: Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
: needed?

: Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.

: Thank you for your time.......

Yu don't have to go very low or no(which is pretty much impossible) diet
to control diabetes. Controlled carbs is what I call it. I eat between
60-100 a day, spaced out, with few in the morning and it works for me.

I would suggest that your friends first see a dietician so they can learn
about co****ing carbs, portin control, reading nutrition labels and get
started on a diet. If the diet doesn't work they may have to make
adjustments, but they need knowledge first.

Exercise is also very important, even just brisk walking will help. The
comination of diet and exercise can go a long way to sontrolling diabetes,
but meds, orals ror insulin may also be needed.

This is a pretty rough intordction, but shoudlget you started with them.
Bewre, as they may well not choose to listen to you.

Wendy

"L. Conrad" > wrote in message
...
> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
> diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with
> diet alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also
> lost his excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight,
> staying under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from
> 50 to 75 will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize
> what foods are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for
> health. The research I've done so far says that is not true since humans
> can make their own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some
> such (think Eskimos and far north peoples). I learned no one ever
> suffered a carb deficiency. They are unwilling to give up the foods they
> love such as potatoes, peas, bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>
> The questions a
>
> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
> need LESS insulin?
> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
> needed?
>
> Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>
> Thank you for your time.......

the most important thing for a diabetic to do is find a life style that will
work best for that individual. it is one of the reasons i dont believe in
those 1 size fits all books that say dont eat over a certain amount of
carbs, protien or fat.
it is why working with a dietitian is the best way to start.
if you find the diet that is first given to you does not work, it might be
because they are not active enough, not timing the carbs right, and many
other things can effect blood sugar levels.
Any diet that you will find more than a few doctors agree with that includes
exercise will be much better than any diet that does not include exercise.
Your friends need to work with doctors more than anything else.

Tom

"L. Conrad" > wrote in message ...
> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
> diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with diet
> alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost his
> excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
> under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
> will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
> are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health. The
> research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make their
> own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think Eskimos
> and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
> They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
> bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>
> The questions a
>
> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
> need LESS insulin?
> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
> needed?
>
> Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>
> Thank you for your time.......
>


yes

L. Conrad wrote:
> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
> diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with diet
> alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost his
> excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
> under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
> will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
> are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health. The
> research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make their
> own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think Eskimos
> and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
> They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
> bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>
> The questions a
>
> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
> need LESS insulin?
> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
> needed?

rk, Tom, and Wendy already gave you some good advice, so let me just
say ditto to what they told you. Everyone is different and basing
their care on what you've read online and advice you solicit from
strangers is not in their best interest.

> Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.

Not a good idea. What you should do is research the doctors in their
area that specialize in diabetes care (preferably an endocrinologist)
and encourage them to set up an appointment ASAP. Diabetes is a not
something that should be treated by hearsay and amateurs. And it
certainly isn't just about carbs.

Good luck.

Kurt


>
> Thank you for your time.......

L. Conrad wrote:
> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a
brother in law
> with diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls
his
> diabetes with diet alone. He's on a really low carb diet
and is doing
> great. He also lost his excess weight. No, his
cholesterol levels
> are not out of sight, staying under 200. He is in his
mid 70s now.
> But my friends, ages from 50 to 75 will not eat a low carb
diet, one
> doesn't even seem to realize what foods are high in carbs
or sugars.
> One says carbs are necessary for health. The research
I've done so
> far says that is not true since humans can make their own
carbs from
> protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think
Eskimos and far
> north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb
deficiency.
> They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as
potatoes,
> peas, bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>
> The questions a
>
> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their
blood-sugar better by
> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their
blood values
> and need LESS insulin?
> Would the need for less insulin be better for their
general health?
> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if
less insulin
> is needed?
>
> Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming
weekend.
>
> Thank you for your time.......

Any carb modification is better than none. Along with their
meds and regular exercise, carb lowering is an ideal way to
gain good control. Just cutting out carbs though without
checking that proper nutrition is maintained is not a good
idea. A knowledge of basic nutrition won't go astray. Weight
loss helps enormously with control, it is one of the best
insulin resistance remedies going.

[Default] On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, "L. Conrad"
> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
>diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with diet
>alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost his
>excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
>under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
>will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
>are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health. The
>research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make their
>own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think Eskimos
>and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
>They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
>bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>
>The questions a
>
>Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
>adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
>Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
>need LESS insulin?
>Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
>Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
>needed?
>
>Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>
>Thank you for your time.......


type 1 diabetes is due to a lack of insulin production. Every human
needs a certain amount of insulin in their system. This background or
basal insulin maintains BG levels between meals and prevents DKA a
potentially fatal condition.

A type 1 does not need to go low carb. and in some cases due to
individual characteristics in that one person, it could be very
dangerous. and make them more prone to severe hypos. Frequent hypos
leads to increased hypo unawareness. This is a very dangerous problem
for those prone to hypos (low blood sugars). They can frequently not
notice an oncoming hypo until they pass out and wake up, if they are
lucky, in the ER.


there are simply too many variables involved to give suggestions
through a third party.

Bring the individual here.

--
Mck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

Ma¢k wrote:
> [Default] On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, "L. Conrad"
> > Giggled into the madness of usenet:
>
>>I'm asking this because I have several friends and a
brother in law
>>with diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls
his
>>diabetes with diet alone. He's on a really low carb diet
and is doing
>>great. He also lost his excess weight. No, his
cholesterol levels
>>are not out of sight, staying under 200. He is in his
mid 70s now.
>>But my friends, ages from 50 to 75 will not eat a low carb
diet, one
>>doesn't even seem to realize what foods are high in carbs
or sugars.
>>One says carbs are necessary for health. The research
I've done so
>>far says that is not true since humans can make their own
carbs from
>>protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think
Eskimos and far
>>north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb
deficiency.
>>They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as
potatoes,
>>peas, bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>>
>>The questions a
>>
>>Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their
blood-sugar better by
>>adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
>>Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their
blood values
>>and need LESS insulin?
>>Would the need for less insulin be better for their
general health?
>>Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if
less insulin
>>is needed?
>>
>>Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming
weekend.
>>
>>Thank you for your time.......
>
>
> type 1 diabetes is due to a lack of insulin production.
Every human
> needs a certain amount of insulin in their system. This
background or
> basal insulin maintains BG levels between meals and
prevents DKA a
> potentially fatal condition.
>
> A type 1 does not need to go low carb. and in some cases
due to
> individual characteristics in that one person, it could be
very
> dangerous. and make them more prone to severe hypos.
Frequent hypos
> leads to increased hypo unawareness. This is a very
dangerous problem
> for those prone to hypos (low blood sugars). They can
frequently not
> notice an oncoming hypo until they pass out and wake up,
if they are
> lucky, in the ER.
>
>
> there are simply too many variables involved to give
suggestions
> through a third party.
>
> Bring the individual here.

The line of questioning from the OP is suggestive of his
friends being type 2. I hope he will clarify this.

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...

<respectful brevity snips>

> The line of questioning from the OP is suggestive of his
> friends being type 2. I hope he will clarify this.


I am printing up all your replies. I know little about Diabetes since I do
not have the condition. These people all have "adult onset" diabetes. I
believe that it's known as Type #2.

One of these friends, a male age 62 lives on a high carbohydrate diet and
drinks at least one six-pack of beer a night. He does not exercise due to
the pain and swelling in his feet. Encouraging him to get on a better diet
with less "sugars" has done no good. His feet are discolored and he was
told he may lose one or both.

He checks his blood once or twice a day and has been on indictable insulin
for 6 years now.

L. Conrad wrote:

> He checks his blood once or twice a day and has been on
indictable
> insulin

Did you spellchecker have a mind of its own here?

In alt.support.diabetes Ozgirl > wrote:
: L. Conrad wrote:

: > He checks his blood once or twice a day and has been on
: indictable
: > insulin

: Did you spellchecker have a mind of its own here?

Yeah, what's the offence of that poor insulin?

Wendy-The group's crackerjack (or should I say crackpot) typist

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
> L. Conrad wrote:
>
>> He checks his blood once or twice a day and has been on
> indictable
>> insulin
>
> Did you spellchecker have a mind of its own here?
>

Yes it did. <G>

L. Conrad wrote:

> One of these friends, a male age 62 lives on a high carbohydrate diet
> and drinks at least one six-pack of beer a night. He does not exercise
> due to the pain and swelling in his feet. Encouraging him to get on a
> better diet with less "sugars" has done no good. His feet are
> discolored and he was told he may lose one or both.

It's unlikely data will help. I have multiple diabetics in my family
and the majority of them are completly uninterested in changing their
diets.

My MIL can sit and explain to me how much her feet hurt at length, but
any hint that eating chocolate cake is probably not helpful just ****es
her off.

People have to decide for themselves.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, L. Conrad wrote:

> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
> diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with diet
> alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost his
> excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
> under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
> will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
> are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health. The
> research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make their
> own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think Eskimos
> and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
> They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
> bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>
> The questions a
>
> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
> need LESS insulin?
> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
> needed?

I would refer you to Dr. Richard Bernstein's "Diabetes Solution". He has
been a type 1 diabetic for nearly 60 years and is in excellent health. His
answer to your queries would be 'yes'. He advocates a diet of 30 grams of
cabohydrates daily for insulin users. Please note I am not affiliated with
Dr. B. - I have a copy of his book which I reread from time to time. I
credit his basic approach to helping me gain control.

One point he makes - there are certainly essential proteins; there are
also certain essential fats; there are no essential carbohydrates.

Good luck.


>
> Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>
> Thank you for your time.......

[Default] On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:31:46 -0700, ray >
Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, L. Conrad wrote:
>
>> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
>> diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with diet
>> alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost his
>> excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
>> under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to 75
>> will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
>> are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health. The
>> research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make their
>> own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think Eskimos
>> and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb deficiency.
>> They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
>> bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>>
>> The questions a
>>
>> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
>> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
>> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
>> need LESS insulin?
>> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
>> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
>> needed?
>
>I would refer you to Dr. Richard Bernstein's "Diabetes Solution". He has
>been a type 1 diabetic for nearly 60 years and is in excellent health. His
>answer to your queries would be 'yes'. He advocates a diet of 30 grams of
>cabohydrates daily for insulin users. Please note I am not affiliated with
>Dr. B. - I have a copy of his book which I reread from time to time. I
>credit his basic approach to helping me gain control.
>
>One point he makes - there are certainly essential proteins; there are
>also certain essential fats; there are no essential carbohydrates.
>
>Good luck.
>
>
>>
>> Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>>
>> Thank you for your time.......


ray forgot to mention that he has no experience using insulin.

the line "there are no essential carbohydrates" is misleading. Just
because there are no specific sources of carbs that are essential does
not equate to carbs are not essential.

a type 1 should follow their own doctor's advice based on their
personal case history.

--
Mck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

ray" > wrote in message
news : On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, L. Conrad wrote:
:
: > I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
: > diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with
diet
: > alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost
his
: > excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
: > under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to
75
: > will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what
foods
: > are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health.
The
: > research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make
their
: > own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think
Eskimos
: > and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb
deficiency.
: > They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes,
peas,
: > bagels, cereals, corn etc.
: >
: > The questions a
: >
: > Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
: > adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
: > Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
: > need LESS insulin?
: > Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
: > Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
: > needed?
:
: I would refer you to Dr. Richard Bernstein's "Diabetes Solution". He has
: been a type 1 diabetic for nearly 60 years and is in excellent health. His
: answer to your queries would be 'yes'. He advocates a diet of 30 grams of
: cabohydrates daily for insulin users. Please note I am not affiliated with
: Dr. B. - I have a copy of his book which I reread from time to time. I
: credit his basic approach to helping me gain control.
:
: One point he makes - there are certainly essential proteins; there are
: also certain essential fats; there are no essential carbohydrates.
:
: Good luck.
:

Well here goes Ray again in his cheer for bernsquack!!! The OP should be
adviced that Ray doesn't have any personal FIRST hand experience with
Insulin only what he has read from someone that MANY T1's find to be a Quack
with a personal agenda of ONLY selling his book.

Find me a crowd of 100, T1's and I'll show you maybe IF you're lucky to find
1 that follows the Quacks advice. Any T1 eating 30gms a day is looking for
problems being a diabetic. This isnt' advocated by any other reputable Endo
(which the quack isn't)

The OP should tell his friend to seek qualified medical help.

"rk" > wrote in message
news:u_OdnW71qOa4oSXYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...

<respectful brevity snips>
>
> Well here goes Ray again in his cheer for bernsquack!!! The OP should be
> adviced that Ray doesn't have any personal FIRST hand experience with
> Insulin only what he has read from someone that MANY T1's find to be a
> Quack
> with a personal agenda of ONLY selling his book.
>
> Find me a crowd of 100, T1's and I'll show you maybe IF you're lucky to
> find
> 1 that follows the Quacks advice. Any T1 eating 30gms a day is looking
> for
> problems being a diabetic. This isnt' advocated by any other reputable
> Endo
> (which the quack isn't)
>
> The OP should tell his friend to seek qualified medical help.
>

They all do see their Drs but from what I can see do not follow the diets
they were given. I am hoping to convince them of the importance of diet as
one friend has already passed away from complications of diabetes. She had
adult onset. I don't want to lose another friend to this disease. I gasp
when we go out to eat and I see one of them eat a large portion of macaroni
with bread on the side. I also know one who may eat a normal meal but then
have a sugar laden slice of pie or a donut for dessert. One friend has no
idea what foods contain carbs and how many. She appears to have no interest
in learning either. It's frustrating for those of us who care for people
with this condition to see these things knowing they're surely harming
themselves.

"L. Conrad" > wrote in message
...
:
: "rk" > wrote in message
: news:u_OdnW71qOa4oSXYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
:
: <respectful brevity snips>
: >
: > Well here goes Ray again in his cheer for bernsquack!!! The OP should be
: > adviced that Ray doesn't have any personal FIRST hand experience with
: > Insulin only what he has read from someone that MANY T1's find to be a
: > Quack
: > with a personal agenda of ONLY selling his book.
: >
: > Find me a crowd of 100, T1's and I'll show you maybe IF you're lucky to
: > find
: > 1 that follows the Quacks advice. Any T1 eating 30gms a day is looking
: > for
: > problems being a diabetic. This isnt' advocated by any other reputable
: > Endo
: > (which the quack isn't)
: >
: > The OP should tell his friend to seek qualified medical help.
: >
:
: They all do see their Drs but from what I can see do not follow the diets
: they were given. I am hoping to convince them of the importance of diet as
: one friend has already passed away from complications of diabetes. She
had
: adult onset. I don't want to lose another friend to this disease. I gasp
: when we go out to eat and I see one of them eat a large portion of
macaroni
: with bread on the side. I also know one who may eat a normal meal but
then
: have a sugar laden slice of pie or a donut for dessert. One friend has no
: idea what foods contain carbs and how many. She appears to have no
interest
: in learning either. It's frustrating for those of us who care for people
: with this condition to see these things knowing they're surely harming
: themselves.
:

I'm sure it is hard to sit back and watch... but unfortunately, you can't
make
them change or learn unless they want. Depression is a very real possibly
when dealing with someone with diabetes. Not to say they need medication
but talking to other diabetics locally might be one trick.

Best of luck.

"ray" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, L. Conrad wrote:
>
>> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
>> diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with
>> diet
>> alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also lost
>> his
>> excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight, staying
>> under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from 50 to
>> 75
>> will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize what foods
>> are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for health.
>> The
>> research I've done so far says that is not true since humans can make
>> their
>> own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some such (think
>> Eskimos
>> and far north peoples). I learned no one ever suffered a carb
>> deficiency.
>> They are unwilling to give up the foods they love such as potatoes, peas,
>> bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>>
>> The questions a
>>
>> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
>> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
>> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
>> need LESS insulin?
>> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
>> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
>> needed?
>
> I would refer you to Dr. Richard Bernstein's "Diabetes Solution". He has
> been a type 1 diabetic for nearly 60 years and is in excellent health. His
> answer to your queries would be 'yes'. He advocates a diet of 30 grams of
> cabohydrates daily for insulin users. Please note I am not affiliated with
> Dr. B. - I have a copy of his book which I reread from time to time. I
> credit his basic approach to helping me gain control.
>
> One point he makes - there are certainly essential proteins; there are
> also certain essential fats; there are no essential carbohydrates.
>
> Good luck.

Thank you for all for your replies. I believe many diabetics would not be
willing to give up the foods they love to keep to a 30g carb a day diet.
That is essentially the problem with my friends. They wont give up what the
love to help themselves. None are really active or into physical activity
of any type beyond the usual shopping or house cleaning. Only my BIL is
willing to do this, plus walk 2 miles most days, and has remained in good
health for years. He said if he went off the strict diet he would eventually
need to go the injectable route and wants to avoid that possibility.

They will see the recommendation of the book above.

"L. Conrad" > wrote in message
...
> I'm asking this because I have several friends and a brother in law with
> diabetes. My BIL doesn't need insulin as he controls his diabetes with
> diet alone. He's on a really low carb diet and is doing great. He also
> lost his excess weight. No, his cholesterol levels are not out of sight,
> staying under 200. He is in his mid 70s now. But my friends, ages from
> 50 to 75 will not eat a low carb diet, one doesn't even seem to realize
> what foods are high in carbs or sugars. One says carbs are necessary for
> health. The research I've done so far says that is not true since humans
> can make their own carbs from protein by splitting off one atom or some
> such (think Eskimos and far north peoples). I learned no one ever
> suffered a carb deficiency. They are unwilling to give up the foods they
> love such as potatoes, peas, bagels, cereals, corn etc.
>
> The questions a
>
> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?
> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
> need LESS insulin?
> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?
> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
> needed?
>
> Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>
> Thank you for your time.......

Low carb diets work for some people but not all. And some people (like me)
do not feel at all well on it. I certainly do not eat all carb laden foods,
nor did I eat them all prior to diabetes. I do limit my portions. In fact
when I did try low carbing, my BG shot up even higher than it would have on
my limited carb diet.

I've never used insulin so I don't know a lot about it. I do know that a
person who has type 1 (meaning they produce no insulin whatever) can
sometimes have more leeway with their diet than a type 2 who uses insulin.
There are just so many variables.

You seem to be convinced that low carb is the only way to go. And you don't
seem to understand much about diabetes. There are over 300 types of
diabetes but we are generally lumped together as type 1, type 2, or
gestational. I'm a type 2 who produced a ton of natural insulin but I have
insulin resistance. The fact that a person does not use insulin does not
mean in some way that they are better than a person who does not. People
use it because they have to use it.

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
news:ZZXth.31132$gS1.22393@trndny01...
>
<brevity snips>

> Low carb diets work for some people but not all. And some people (like
> me) do not feel at all well on it. I certainly do not eat all carb laden
> foods, nor did I eat them all prior to diabetes. I do limit my portions.
> In fact when I did try low carbing, my BG shot up even higher than it
> would have on my limited carb diet.

Can that be explained somehow? I was under the impression that fats and
protein do not raise the GB to abnormal levels.

> I've never used insulin so I don't know a lot about it. I do know that a
> person who has type 1 (meaning they produce no insulin whatever) can
> sometimes have more leeway with their diet than a type 2 who uses insulin.
> There are just so many variables.

Yes, I can see that as I read all your replies.

> You seem to be convinced that low carb is the only way to go. And you
> don't seem to understand much about diabetes.

That's why I am asking for information from the horse's mouths so to speak.
I was impressed by my BIL's continued good health on a low carb diet for all
these many years. He was the one who peaked my interest in looking into diet
and diabetes where my other friends from church with the disease were
concerned.

There are over 300 types of
> diabetes but we are generally lumped together as type 1, type 2, or
> gestational. I'm a type 2 who produced a ton of natural insulin but I
> have insulin resistance. The fact that a person does not use insulin does
> not mean in some way that they are better than a person who does not.
> People use it because they have to use it.

Thank you.

"L. Conrad" > wrote in message
...
:
: "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
: news:ZZXth.31132$gS1.22393@trndny01...
: >
: <brevity snips>
:
: > Low carb diets work for some people but not all. And some people (like
: > me) do not feel at all well on it. I certainly do not eat all carb
laden
: > foods, nor did I eat them all prior to diabetes. I do limit my
portions.
: > In fact when I did try low carbing, my BG shot up even higher than it
: > would have on my limited carb diet.
:
: Can that be explained somehow? I was under the impression that fats and
: protein do not raise the GB to abnormal levels.

fats do not, but protein will convert into glucose about 5-6hrs after you
eat it
and it will cause a rise. some might show none, because they have enough
insulin to cover it, others might show some, others might see quite a bit of
a
rise. If I eat a 7oz steak and go to bed with a glucose of 90, unless I
combo
bolus on my pump, I'll see 200+ easy the next morning from the rise from the
converted protein.

"rk" > wrote in message
news:G_OdnU5yrM86sSTYnZ2dnUVZ_rCsnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> "L. Conrad" > wrote in message
> ...
> : Can that be explained somehow? I was under the impression that fats and
> : protein do not raise the GB to abnormal levels.
>
> fats do not, but protein will convert into glucose about 5-6hrs after you
> eat it
> and it will cause a rise. some might show none, because they have enough
> insulin to cover it, others might show some, others might see quite a bit
> of
> a
> rise. If I eat a 7oz steak and go to bed with a glucose of 90, unless I
> combo
> bolus on my pump, I'll see 200+ easy the next morning from the rise from
> the
> converted protein.


Thank you, I understand now. I was under the impression glucose was only
converted from protein if there was almost no carbs in the diet. My
mistake.

L. Conrad wrote:

> Thank you, I understand now. I was under the impression glucose was only
> converted from protein if there was almost no carbs in the diet. My
> mistake.

There's not an easy answer to this question.

It's extremely easy to make blanket statements like 50% of protein
converts to glucose, but it really depends. That is how much *can* be
converted, but the body has a lot of issues going on, how much it needs
glucose, what other needs for protein there are, the overall balance of
the diet, etc.

I have personally found I need to dose insulin in such a way that 1 g
carb = 2 g protein with the diet I eat, which is relatively low-carb
(around 50g net carb/day).

However, many others do just fine controlling their bg just accounting
for carb and ignoring protein entirely. It seems to me most T2s who are
not on insulin do not get a spike from protein & fat meals at all and
those T2s on insulin mostly do not have to account for protein the way I do.

Protein seems to be a *potential* source of glucose, but whether it
actually is so in any specific case seems very difficult to predict
short of testing.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

In alt.support.diabetes L. Conrad > wrote:

: That's why I am asking for information from the horse's mouths so to speak.
: I was impressed by my BIL's continued good health on a low carb diet for all
: these many years. He was the one who peaked my interest in looking into diet
: and diabetes where my other friends from church with the disease were
: concerned.


I woudl be interested to know just how low a carb diet your BIL eats.
Many of us here find that moderate carbs, in the vicinity of less than 12-
or less than 100 a day works for us. Very few, indeed, look at a 30 carb
gram a day diet as our preference or very desireable as a life-long way of
eating. Some seem to have more trouble dealing with carbs than others and
some dont' like taking meds to such a degree that they may well try this
kind of very low carb diet.

Certainly, in dealing with your friends, this kind of suggestion would not
be welcome, as it is a very restrictive regemin that would be very hard to
follow for most of us here for more than 2 weeks or so and particularly
for people who are not used to limiting themselves. Probably, your best
bet with people who are that resistnt to advice as your friends seem to
be(not fllowing doctors' advice, etc) might be finding some real scary
statistics on diabetes complications like blindness, amupation, heart
attack and stroke and total kidney failure. Then you can talk about th
possibility of avoiding these by diet adn exercise,. just getting these
folks to avoid the white starches, bread, pasta, rice, etc, would be a
good start. I don't have a great deal of hope that they will listen to
you or even our responses, but it is very nice for you to want to be a
good friend and try.

Wendy

"W. Baker" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.support.diabetes L. Conrad > wrote:
>
> : That's why I am asking for information from the horse's mouths so to
> speak.
> : I was impressed by my BIL's continued good health on a low carb diet for
> all
> : these many years. He was the one who peaked my interest in looking into
> diet
> : and diabetes where my other friends from church with the disease were
> : concerned.
>
>
> I woudl be interested to know just how low a carb diet your BIL eats.
> Many of us here find that moderate carbs, in the vicinity of less than 12-
> or less than 100 a day works for us. Very few, indeed, look at a 30 carb
> gram a day diet as our preference or very desireable as a life-long way of
> eating. Some seem to have more trouble dealing with carbs than others and
> some dont' like taking meds to such a degree that they may well try this
> kind of very low carb diet.

He is on between 40 and 60g carbs a day. Those being from vegetables and
fruit only. Occasionally he will cheat as he says and have a dinner roll or
perhaps a small piece of pie during the holidays. It may not be the most
desirable diet one can be on but he does want to remain as healthy as
possible until the Grim Reaper comes for him (as he puts it).

> Certainly, in dealing with your friends, this kind of suggestion would not
> be welcome, as it is a very restrictive regemin that would be very hard to
> follow for most of us here for more than 2 weeks or so and particularly
> for people who are not used to limiting themselves.

This is believe is part of the problem even with heart patients. At my age
you start to see many friends developing serious health problems. Some of
those with heart disease will not follow the diets given them either. No
one wants to sacrifice for their health. One non diabetic friend who has
already had a heart attack is taking cholesterol lowering drugs because she
refuses to give up her Big Macs, fatty spare ribs, T-bone steaks, French
fries (trans fats) etc. She told me, "My insurance company is paying for
the drugs so why should I give up the foods I love?" I had no reply for
her. She recently suffered another serious bout of chest pain. I can see
another by-pass in her future. Why the heck are people so unwilling to
change their eating habits?

Probably, your best
> bet with people who are that resistnt to advice as your friends seem to
> be(not fllowing doctors' advice, etc) might be finding some real scary
> statistics on diabetes complications like blindness, amupation, heart
> attack and stroke and total kidney failure.
Then you can talk about th
> possibility of avoiding these by diet adn exercise,. just getting these
> folks to avoid the white starches, bread, pasta, rice, etc, would be a
> good start. I don't have a great deal of hope that they will listen to
> you or even our responses, but it is very nice for you to want to be a
> good friend and try.

Thank you. If I can only persuade one or two of them to take more
responsibility for their own health I will be happy.

>
> Wendy
>

Julie Bove wrote:

> The fact that a person does not use insulin does not
> mean in some way that they are better than a person who does not. People
> use it because they have to use it.

I completly agree, but would also add that reducing insulin usage is a
good thing for T2s. It is irrelevant whether the insulin being reduced
is the homegrown stuff or the injected stuff - reducing insulin is a
healthy choice regardless.


--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, "L. Conrad" >
wrote:

>Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.

For the record, I'm doing the same thing as your BIL, and feel great.
But I think you're more likely to lose friends than change minds by
trying to get people to change their diet...

How about working on the exercise part of the equation instead? A walk
an hour after eating can make a big difference to blood glucose
levels. So could a bowling game, or a swim, or a trip to the gym...

Nicky.
T2 DX 05/2004
A1c 5.5% BMI 25 D&E
100ug Thyroxine

"Nicky" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, "L. Conrad" >
> wrote:
>
>>Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>
> For the record, I'm doing the same thing as your BIL, and feel great.
> But I think you're more likely to lose friends than change minds by
> trying to get people to change their diet...

Fear not, I will not cram the issue down their throats. We had a discussion
at one meeting concerning diseases like diabetes and heart disease and how
they're related to diet and exercise. I told them I would ask on the "the
net" and report back to them. I come from a small town area where many
people my age lack interest in learning how to use a computer. Using
computers is another thing I am trying to get them interested in. <G>

> How about working on the exercise part of the equation instead? A walk
> an hour after eating can make a big difference to blood glucose
> levels. So could a bowling game, or a swim, or a trip to the gym...

That will also be covered this weekend. It appears that many older folks are
no more interested in starting an exercise program then they are in changing
their eating habits.

>
> Nicky.
> T2 DX 05/2004
> A1c 5.5% BMI 25 D&E
> 100ug Thyroxine

In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:51:01 -0600 in Msg.#
>, "L. Conrad" > wrote:

> That will also be covered this weekend. It appears that many older folks are
> no more interested in starting an exercise program then they are in changing
> their eating habits.

Some people are simply resigned that this is the kind of thing that happens
to you when you get old. When thinking you're old in itself, that attitude,
can be playing a part in their overall health.

There are numerous 'tests' on the web - and some doctor's offices have them
as software - where you calculate your age by your health risks. And, many
of them show you how many years you could get back from that estimate by
doing 'x' thing, whether that be diet, exercise, stopping smoking, ...
whatever. That kind of thing might be illustrative to them.

--
DonnaB 09-11-06 hbA1C 5.0
06-07-06 Diagnosis T2 hbA1C 8.1, D&E & Metformin 500mg.
09-11-06 hbA1C 5.0

"DonnaB shallotpeel" > wrote in message
...
> There are numerous 'tests' on the web - and some doctor's offices have
> them
> as software - where you calculate your age by your health risks. And, many
> of them show you how many years you could get back from that estimate by
> doing 'x' thing, whether that be diet, exercise, stopping smoking, ...
> whatever. That kind of thing might be illustrative to them.

That's a good idea. I'll try and borrow someone's laptop.........

In alt.support.diabetes L. Conrad > wrote:

> "Nicky" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:48:11 -0600, "L. Conrad" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Your replies will be printed and given to them this coming weekend.
>>
>> For the record, I'm doing the same thing as your BIL, and feel great.
>> But I think you're more likely to lose friends than change minds by
>> trying to get people to change their diet...

> Fear not, I will not cram the issue down their throats. We had a discussion
> at one meeting concerning diseases like diabetes and heart disease and how
> they're related to diet and exercise. I told them I would ask on the "the
> net" and report back to them. I come from a small town area where many
> people my age lack interest in learning how to use a computer. Using
> computers is another thing I am trying to get them interested in. <G>

>> How about working on the exercise part of the equation instead? A walk
>> an hour after eating can make a big difference to blood glucose
>> levels. So could a bowling game, or a swim, or a trip to the gym...

> That will also be covered this weekend. It appears that many older folks are
> no more interested in starting an exercise program then they are in changing
> their eating habits.

I'm 63 and all my life have always found it terribly hard to keep up
an exercise programme. I've joined a gym twice, and never went more
than four times.

So I get my exercise by taking advantage of opportunities in my
life. I do my food shopping by bicycle. I never take elevators. I
often run up & down stairs. I mow my lawns with a push mower. I mostly
avoid the use of power tools. And so on.

I recall when my mother was living in a retirement home. She lived up
one flight of stairs, but always took the elevator. After a few years
she was completely unable to get up that one flight. My sister wanted
to take her on a cruise, but couldn't afford cabins without stair only
access. So we persuaded Mum to start trying to go up the stairs. She
was to walk up as far as she could manage, sit down for a rest, then
walk back down & take the elevator up.

It took both of days to persuade her to try this. She was convinced
she was too old and it would just be a lot of miserable painful
struggling for nothing. I think she started just to stop us nagging
her :-) But once she started doing it she noticed that every few days
she'd manage to get up another step or two. After some weeks she began
to realise it was really going to be possible to work up to doing the
entire flight, and became really enthusiastic.

She went on the cruise, and managed the steep cabin staircases fine.

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

L. Conrad wrote:

> Can a diabetic, already on insulin control their blood-sugar better by
> adopting a very low carb, or near no carb diet?

Yes. Large doses of carb require large doses of insulin to cover them;
the larger the doses, the more room for error. It's much easier to
avoid both hyperglycemia and hypoglycemia with the smallest possible
doses of both carbs and insulin. Tight control of blood glucose greatly
reduces the chances of diabetic complicaitons such as kidney damage,
heart disease, impotence, blindness and amputation.


> Can a diabetic who adopts a low carb diet improve their blood values and
> need LESS insulin?

Yes. Absolutely. Sugar raises blood triglycerides and LDL and lowers
HDL. Further, high bg causes blood proteins to become glycoslyated,
greatly increasing the risk of heart disease much moreso than cholesterol.


> Would the need for less insulin be better for their general health?

Yes. High serum levels of insulin have been implicated in a number of
serious diseases. There is no evidence that the injected stuff is any
healthier than the homemade kind. Reducing insulin usage is a good thing.


> Can a diabetic slowly lower their carb levels to see if less insulin is
> needed?

The diabetic would either need to understand insulin dosing themselves
to do this or need to work with a knowledgable doctor to do this safeky.
But with that caveat, the answer is most definitly yes.

I am a T2 diabetic and when I began on insulin this year, I was taking a
total of over 80 units of total basal and bolus insulin daily. Within a
few months with tight diet control and optimizing my blood glucose
control, I got that cut down to well under 60 units. I've recently
begun on Symlin and cut my doses down even further, to under 45 units.

Less insulin is good, presuming blood glucose control is tightly managed
on the lesser dose.

Really, it depends on what someone wants. I personally consider
skipping pasta and potatoes to be more than worthwhile to avoid another
heart attack. I have family members who do not consider it nearly as
worthwhile though.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/