Last week I bbq'ed two boneless pork butts and had great smoke penetration
and flavor 1/2"+ smoke ring. This week I did two more butts and had almost
no smoke ring and very little smoky flavor 1/8"- smoke ring.

They were treated the same with the same rub and handleing. The only
difference was that within the first hour of q'ing the second set of butts
the q'er temperature spiked well into the "to hot " range for a while.
After this temperature spike I kept it at lower temps for the rest of the
cooking time.


I use a modified ECB with the original thermometer and usualy try to keep
the temperature between "low" and "Ideal" and use only apricot wood as fuel.
The mods to the ecb are attatching the legs to the fire pan so the smoker
body lifts off the fire pan so you don't have to unload the entire unit if
you have to have top access to your fire.

I think this early temperature spike sealed the outer surface of the meat
preventing fuller smoke penetration. What do you think?

Dan

"dan" > wrote in message >
> I think this early temperature spike sealed the outer surface of the meat
> preventing fuller smoke penetration. What do you think?
>
> Dan
>
Dan, I think the second set, instead of being sealed, merely got hot too
soon and stopped absorbing the smoke. As I understand things, the smoke
ring is caused by chemicals in the smoke condensing onto the surface of the
meat and reacting with meat components. That's why a lot of people try to
increase their smoke rings by putting the meat on the smoker right out of
the reefer, instead of letting it warm up to room temp. I have heard that
meat stops absorbing any smokey components after it reaches about 140.

Your second batch went over 140 much quicker than the first batch and,
hence, had much less time to absorb the goodies that make the smoke ring.

John in Austin

>
> Your second batch went over 140 much quicker than the first batch and,
> hence, had much less time to absorb the goodies that make the smoke ring.
>
> John in Austin

Ok
That makes sense. It was starting to sizzle a little. But still to much heat
to soon.
The one thing that I wonder is why some people recomend allowing their meat
to warm up out side the refriderator before q'in it if it causes the outside
to heat up faster, limiting smoke penetration.

Dan

> The one thing that I wonder is why some people recomend allowing their
meat
> to warm up out side the refriderator before q'in it if it causes the
outside
> to heat up faster, limiting smoke penetration.
>
> Dan
>

I think it's a holdover from steak grilling. You get a much nicer steak if
you let it come up to room temp before grilling. Same thing with chicken,
tho you need to be careful, obviously. Most of us were veteran grillers
before we ever got into the low and slow game.

Also, putting the meat on cold is a rather recent revelation to some of us
here. I know it is to me. The empirical results are pretty convincing,
however.

John in Austin

I thought it was because creosote condenses out on cold surfaces? Yeechy!

"JakBQuik" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > The one thing that I wonder is why some people recomend allowing their
> meat
> > to warm up out side the refriderator before q'in it if it causes the
> outside
> > to heat up faster, limiting smoke penetration.
> >
> > Dan
> >
>
> I think it's a holdover from steak grilling. You get a much nicer steak
if
> you let it come up to room temp before grilling. Same thing with chicken,
> tho you need to be careful, obviously. Most of us were veteran grillers
> before we ever got into the low and slow game.
>
> Also, putting the meat on cold is a rather recent revelation to some of us
> here. I know it is to me. The empirical results are pretty convincing,
> however.
>
> John in Austin
>
>

I thought it was because creosote condenses out on cold surfaces? Yeechy!

"JakBQuik" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > The one thing that I wonder is why some people recomend allowing their
> meat
> > to warm up out side the refriderator before q'in it if it causes the
> outside
> > to heat up faster, limiting smoke penetration.
> >
> > Dan
> >
>
> I think it's a holdover from steak grilling. You get a much nicer steak
if
> you let it come up to room temp before grilling. Same thing with chicken,
> tho you need to be careful, obviously. Most of us were veteran grillers
> before we ever got into the low and slow game.
>
> Also, putting the meat on cold is a rather recent revelation to some of us
> here. I know it is to me. The empirical results are pretty convincing,
> however.
>
> John in Austin
>
>

dan wrote:

> Last week I bbq'ed two boneless pork butts and had great smoke penetration
> and flavor 1/2"+ smoke ring. This week I did two more butts and had almost
> no smoke ring and very little smoky flavor 1/8"- smoke ring.
>
> They were treated the same with the same rub and handleing. The only
> difference was that within the first hour of q'ing the second set of butts
> the q'er temperature spiked well into the "to hot " range for a while.

Bingo. I was talking Q with a distant cousin in Mississippi
a few weeks ago, and he observed that the proteins "close up"
as they start to heat up, so it's important to maintain a
relatively low heat at first, after I'd mentioned that meat
doesn't seem to take much smoke after an hour or two.

I can't help but wonder if this isn't a key element of HiQ -
a slow start followed by the higher cooking temperatures.

Cheers,
Dana

dan wrote:

> Last week I bbq'ed two boneless pork butts and had great smoke penetration
> and flavor 1/2"+ smoke ring. This week I did two more butts and had almost
> no smoke ring and very little smoky flavor 1/8"- smoke ring.
>
> They were treated the same with the same rub and handleing. The only
> difference was that within the first hour of q'ing the second set of butts
> the q'er temperature spiked well into the "to hot " range for a while.

Bingo. I was talking Q with a distant cousin in Mississippi
a few weeks ago, and he observed that the proteins "close up"
as they start to heat up, so it's important to maintain a
relatively low heat at first, after I'd mentioned that meat
doesn't seem to take much smoke after an hour or two.

I can't help but wonder if this isn't a key element of HiQ -
a slow start followed by the higher cooking temperatures.

Cheers,
Dana

dan wrote:

> The one thing that I wonder is why some people recomend allowing their meat
> to warm up out side the refriderator before q'in it if it causes the outside
> to heat up faster, limiting smoke penetration.

One thing I've read is that smoking meat too-cold can
promote the formation of creosote on the meat itself.

Cheers,
Dana

Dana Myers wrote:

> dan wrote:

> > The one thing that I wonder is why some people recomend allowing their meat
> > to warm up out side the refriderator before q'in it if it causes the outside
> > to heat up faster, limiting smoke penetration.

> One thing I've read is that smoking meat too-cold can
> promote the formation of creosote on the meat itself.

This subject is well covered in the FAQ, with comments by Danny
Gaulden and others. Smoke flavor does indeed penetrate cold meat
better, but there is the attendant risk of creosote deposition on the
meat. If one wants to take advantage of the greater smoke penetration
into cold meat, it demands an exceptionally clean-burning fire,
probably one where the wood has been preburned to coals prior to
adding it to the pit.
--
Andy Williams

Dana Myers wrote:

> dan wrote:

> > The one thing that I wonder is why some people recomend allowing their meat
> > to warm up out side the refriderator before q'in it if it causes the outside
> > to heat up faster, limiting smoke penetration.

> One thing I've read is that smoking meat too-cold can
> promote the formation of creosote on the meat itself.

This subject is well covered in the FAQ, with comments by Danny
Gaulden and others. Smoke flavor does indeed penetrate cold meat
better, but there is the attendant risk of creosote deposition on the
meat. If one wants to take advantage of the greater smoke penetration
into cold meat, it demands an exceptionally clean-burning fire,
probably one where the wood has been preburned to coals prior to
adding it to the pit.
--
Andy Williams

Andy Williams wrote:


> This subject is well covered in the FAQ, with comments by Danny
> Gaulden and others. Smoke flavor does indeed penetrate cold meat
> better, but there is the attendant risk of creosote deposition on the
> meat. If one wants to take advantage of the greater smoke penetration
> into cold meat, it demands an exceptionally clean-burning fire,
> probably one where the wood has been preburned to coals prior to
> adding it to the pit.

I could not agree more.

Cheers,
Dana

On 14-Jul-2004, "JakBQuik" > wrote:

> "dan" > wrote in message >
> > I think this early temperature spike sealed the outer surface of the meat
> > preventing fuller smoke penetration. What do you think?
> >
> > Dan
> >
> Dan, I think the second set, instead of being sealed, merely got hot too
> soon and stopped absorbing the smoke. As I understand things, the smoke
> ring is caused by chemicals in the smoke condensing onto the surface of the
> meat and reacting with meat components. That's why a lot of people try to
> increase their smoke rings by putting the meat on the smoker right out of
> the reefer, instead of letting it warm up to room temp. I have heard that
> meat stops absorbing any smokey components after it reaches about 140.
>
> Your second batch went over 140 much quicker than the first batch and,
> hence, had much less time to absorb the goodies that make the smoke ring.
>
> John in Austin

I'm baffled as to why Dan's meat took on such a minimal smoke ring. I generally
cook at temps much higher then are generally accepted here, except from a
few like TFM®, Big Jim and lately Jack Curry who may (or may not be) a recent
convert. My posts to ABF showed some brisket cooked at 275° to 325° for six
hours for the tip and seven for the flat. (The flat was in a cooler zone then the tip)
brick142, 'Brisket Tip), and brick145, 'Brisket Flat'. I can repost of you need to see
them.

About the only thing I can add about the temperature thing is that the temp at
the meat can be very deceiving unless you have a probe right at the meat location.
My dome temp rather then being hotter then the grate level is actually much cooler
by as much as 50° depending on the position on the cooking grate.
--
M&M ("When You're Over The Hill You Pick Up Speed")

M&M wrote:
> I'm baffled as to why Dan's meat took on such a minimal smoke ring.
I
> generally cook at temps much higher then are generally accepted
here,
> except from a few like TFM®, Big Jim and lately Jack Curry who may
> (or may not be) a recent convert. My posts to ABF showed some
brisket
> cooked at 275° to 325° for six hours for the tip and seven for the
> flat.

I'm wonderin too since I still get a nice smoke ring when my barrel is
runnin hot (+325°F).
--
-frohe
Life is too short to be in a hurry

M&M wrote:
> I'm baffled as to why Dan's meat took on such a minimal smoke ring.
I
> generally cook at temps much higher then are generally accepted
here,
> except from a few like TFM®, Big Jim and lately Jack Curry who may
> (or may not be) a recent convert. My posts to ABF showed some
brisket
> cooked at 275° to 325° for six hours for the tip and seven for the
> flat.

I'm wonderin too since I still get a nice smoke ring when my barrel is
runnin hot (+325°F).
--
-frohe
Life is too short to be in a hurry

> M&M wrote:
> > I'm baffled as to why Dan's meat took on such a minimal smoke ring.
> I
> > generally cook at temps much higher then are generally accepted
> here,
> > except from a few like TFM®, Big Jim and lately Jack Curry who may
> > (or may not be) a recent convert. My posts to ABF showed some
> brisket
> > cooked at 275° to 325° for six hours for the tip and seven for the
> > flat.
>
> I'm wonderin too since I still get a nice smoke ring when my barrel is
> runnin hot (+325°F).
> --
> -frohe


It's not just the smoke ring that baffles me. They had very little classic
bbq smoke flavor too. As far as actual temperature, it's hard for me to know
because like I said I'm using an ecb with the old "too Cold-ideal-too hot"
gauge, although it was almost pegged....we all make mistakes now and then...
Dan

I don't pretend to know much of the technique required to
produce successfule 'Q'. Check out ABF for brick147.jpg.
That was the last brisket I cooked. It was a 12# packer
cut from Wally World. The tip took 6 hrs and
the flat took 7 hrs. The pic is of the sliced flat with a very
prominent smoke ring. I also added brick149 which is
a pulled brisket sandwich topped with vinegar slaw and
ranch beans on the side.

--
M&M ("When You're Over The Hill You Pick Up Speed")

On 15-Jul-2004, "dan" > wrote:

> > > M&M wrote:
> > > I'm baffled as to why Dan's meat took on such a minimal smoke ring.
> > > I generally cook at temps much higher then are generally accepted
> > > here, except from a few like TFM®, Big Jim and lately Jack Curry who may
> > > (or may not be) a recent convert. My posts to ABF showed some
> > > brisket cooked at 275° to 325° for six hours for the tip and seven for the
> > > flat.
> >
> > I'm wonderin too since I still get a nice smoke ring when my barrel is
> > runnin hot (+325°F).
> > --
> > -frohe
>
>
> It's not just the smoke ring that baffles me. They had very little classic
> bbq smoke flavor too. As far as actual temperature, it's hard for me to know
> because like I said I'm using an ecb with the old "too Cold-ideal-too hot"
> gauge, although it was almost pegged....we all make mistakes now and then...
> Dan

Dan needs some help here. Obviously neither I nor frohe has figured it out.
Somebody weigh in here with some insightful comment

--
M&M ("When You're Over The Hill You Pick Up Speed")

M&M wrote:

> Dan needs some help here. Obviously neither I nor frohe has figured
> it out. Somebody weigh in here with some insightful comment

One word: Gremlins.

Dave Bugg wrote:

> M&M wrote:
>
>
>>Dan needs some help here. Obviously neither I nor frohe has figured
>>it out. Somebody weigh in here with some insightful comment

> One word: Gremlins.

I was thinking more along the lines of too hot, too soon.

Dana

dan wrote:
> It's not just the smoke ring that baffles me. They had very little
> classic bbq smoke flavor too. As far as actual temperature, it's
hard
> for me to know because like I said I'm using an ecb with the old
"too
> Cold-ideal-too hot" gauge, although it was almost pegged....we all
> make mistakes now and then... Dan

Well, ya may have learned one lesson from this - fire control. And
that's a tough one to learn because of weather conditions. I would
scrap usin the ECB's therm though; a single probe unit runs about $15
and is worth the $$$$. The other thing I'd suggest is gettin a small
shovel or trowel to scoop coals out of the ECB if it's runnin too hot.
--
-frohe
Life is too short to be in a hurry

dan wrote:
> It's not just the smoke ring that baffles me. They had very little
> classic bbq smoke flavor too. As far as actual temperature, it's
hard
> for me to know because like I said I'm using an ecb with the old
"too
> Cold-ideal-too hot" gauge, although it was almost pegged....we all
> make mistakes now and then... Dan

Well, ya may have learned one lesson from this - fire control. And
that's a tough one to learn because of weather conditions. I would
scrap usin the ECB's therm though; a single probe unit runs about $15
and is worth the $$$$. The other thing I'd suggest is gettin a small
shovel or trowel to scoop coals out of the ECB if it's runnin too hot.
--
-frohe
Life is too short to be in a hurry

"dan" > wrote in message
news:OraJc.72068$JR4.18633@attbi_s54...
> Last week I bbq'ed two boneless pork butts and had great smoke penetration
> and flavor 1/2"+ smoke ring. This week I did two more butts and had almost
> no smoke ring and very little smoky flavor 1/8"- smoke ring.


Were you the only one to notice the lack of smoke flavor? I notice that
there are times my q tastes soso but others rave about it. Ultimately I
discovered that times when I tend the fire more often and smell the smoke
for long periods, the q isn't as flavorful. Next day it tasted great!

Now the lack of smoke ring with high temps, that is very understandable
however you still should have had smoke flavor (as they aren't dependant on
each other). The reality is smoke flavor is only a surface phenomenon that
only can make it thru the meat given a very long time. You trim off a half
inch of bark around a tenderloin or brisket while being careful to clean the
knife after each cut (to avoid smearing the smoke flavor on the newly
exposed meat) and see this. There will be very little if any smoke flavor.
Remember that smoke flavor is in reality no different from LS. If you over
smoke the meat (I.E. apply too much smoke too fast) you will have a result
that tastes like you put a bunch of liquid smoke on it. Now the longer you
cook it, the greater chance of the natural convection flow of the juices in
the meat will cause an equal distribution of the smoke particulate. This is
the advantage of a longer cook time, greater mixing of flavor and juices.
However, there is normally enough smoke on the outside that you really won't
miss a lack of smoke flavor in the center of the meat given the mechanics of
how we taste and the fact that the surface of the meat touches our tongue
first



Now just to cause a little trouble he

If you wish to simulate bbq in the oven do this. Prepare the meat as usual
(rub and all). Cook in the oven at 250deg on a grid elevated over a roasting
pan until done. Now every so often spray a dilute mixture of water, vinegar,
Morton's quick tender or curing salt and liquid smoke. The idea is to apply
the smoke/cure slowly so as to allow a homogenous distribution of the smoke.
You will get a natural smoke flavor and a smoke ring. If you don't over do
it with the liquid smoke, you will be amazed.


-CAL

"dan" > wrote in message
news:OraJc.72068$JR4.18633@attbi_s54...
> Last week I bbq'ed two boneless pork butts and had great smoke penetration
> and flavor 1/2"+ smoke ring. This week I did two more butts and had almost
> no smoke ring and very little smoky flavor 1/8"- smoke ring.


Were you the only one to notice the lack of smoke flavor? I notice that
there are times my q tastes soso but others rave about it. Ultimately I
discovered that times when I tend the fire more often and smell the smoke
for long periods, the q isn't as flavorful. Next day it tasted great!

Now the lack of smoke ring with high temps, that is very understandable
however you still should have had smoke flavor (as they aren't dependant on
each other). The reality is smoke flavor is only a surface phenomenon that
only can make it thru the meat given a very long time. You trim off a half
inch of bark around a tenderloin or brisket while being careful to clean the
knife after each cut (to avoid smearing the smoke flavor on the newly
exposed meat) and see this. There will be very little if any smoke flavor.
Remember that smoke flavor is in reality no different from LS. If you over
smoke the meat (I.E. apply too much smoke too fast) you will have a result
that tastes like you put a bunch of liquid smoke on it. Now the longer you
cook it, the greater chance of the natural convection flow of the juices in
the meat will cause an equal distribution of the smoke particulate. This is
the advantage of a longer cook time, greater mixing of flavor and juices.
However, there is normally enough smoke on the outside that you really won't
miss a lack of smoke flavor in the center of the meat given the mechanics of
how we taste and the fact that the surface of the meat touches our tongue
first



Now just to cause a little trouble he

If you wish to simulate bbq in the oven do this. Prepare the meat as usual
(rub and all). Cook in the oven at 250deg on a grid elevated over a roasting
pan until done. Now every so often spray a dilute mixture of water, vinegar,
Morton's quick tender or curing salt and liquid smoke. The idea is to apply
the smoke/cure slowly so as to allow a homogenous distribution of the smoke.
You will get a natural smoke flavor and a smoke ring. If you don't over do
it with the liquid smoke, you will be amazed.


-CAL

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:20:36 GMT, "JD" >
wrote:

>
>"Dana Myers" > wrote in message
. com...
>> Dave Bugg wrote:
>>
>> > M&M wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Dan needs some help here. Obviously neither I nor frohe has figured
>> >>it out. Somebody weigh in here with some insightful comment
>>
>> > One word: Gremlins.
>>
>> I was thinking more along the lines of too hot, too soon.
>>
>> Dana
>
>Sounds like my sex life when I was 16
>
>JD
>

Oh

My

God!

(snicker)


Rick Simms

--
A pessimist believes all women are bad.

An optimist hopes they are.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:20:36 GMT, "JD" >
wrote:

>
>"Dana Myers" > wrote in message
. com...
>> Dave Bugg wrote:
>>
>> > M&M wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Dan needs some help here. Obviously neither I nor frohe has figured
>> >>it out. Somebody weigh in here with some insightful comment
>>
>> > One word: Gremlins.
>>
>> I was thinking more along the lines of too hot, too soon.
>>
>> Dana
>
>Sounds like my sex life when I was 16
>
>JD
>

Oh

My

God!

(snicker)


Rick Simms

--
A pessimist believes all women are bad.

An optimist hopes they are.

"Dana Myers" > wrote in message
om...
> Dave Bugg wrote:
>
> > M&M wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Dan needs some help here. Obviously neither I nor frohe has figured
> >>it out. Somebody weigh in here with some insightful comment
>
> > One word: Gremlins.
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of too hot, too soon.
>
> Dana

I dunno. It takes a good deal of time or very hot temps to get a hunk o meat up
to 140 (the legendary no more smoke temp). I don't know if 1 hr. would do it.

Unfortunately, I can't offer a solution.


Tyler

"Dana Myers" > wrote in message
om...
> Dave Bugg wrote:
>
> > M&M wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Dan needs some help here. Obviously neither I nor frohe has figured
> >>it out. Somebody weigh in here with some insightful comment
>
> > One word: Gremlins.
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of too hot, too soon.
>
> Dana

I dunno. It takes a good deal of time or very hot temps to get a hunk o meat up
to 140 (the legendary no more smoke temp). I don't know if 1 hr. would do it.

Unfortunately, I can't offer a solution.


Tyler

Tyler Hopper wrote:

> I dunno. It takes a good deal of time or very hot temps to get a hunk o meat up
> to 140 (the legendary no more smoke temp). I don't know if 1 hr. would do it.
>
> Unfortunately, I can't offer a solution.

My guess is...

The whole hunk of meat doesn't need to be at 140 - just the
outside of it, and probably a pretty shallow layer at that.

This might be a decent application of Occam's Razor...

Cheers,
Dana

Tyler Hopper wrote:

> I dunno. It takes a good deal of time or very hot temps to get a hunk o meat up
> to 140 (the legendary no more smoke temp). I don't know if 1 hr. would do it.
>
> Unfortunately, I can't offer a solution.

My guess is...

The whole hunk of meat doesn't need to be at 140 - just the
outside of it, and probably a pretty shallow layer at that.

This might be a decent application of Occam's Razor...

Cheers,
Dana

"cl" > wrote in message
>
>
> Were you the only one to notice the lack of smoke flavor? I notice that
> there are times my q tastes soso but others rave about it. Ultimately I
> discovered that times when I tend the fire more often and smell the smoke
> for long periods, the q isn't as flavorful. Next day it tasted great!
>

That can be fixed. Tending the fire your nasal passages get overpowered and
no longer have the same sensitivity.

Finish cooking the meat, change clothing, take a shower and blow your nose
clean. Rinse your mouth.

"cl" > wrote in message
>
>
> Were you the only one to notice the lack of smoke flavor? I notice that
> there are times my q tastes soso but others rave about it. Ultimately I
> discovered that times when I tend the fire more often and smell the smoke
> for long periods, the q isn't as flavorful. Next day it tasted great!
>

That can be fixed. Tending the fire your nasal passages get overpowered and
no longer have the same sensitivity.

Finish cooking the meat, change clothing, take a shower and blow your nose
clean. Rinse your mouth.

>
> Were you the only one to notice the lack of smoke flavor? I notice that
> there are times my q tastes soso but others rave about it. Ultimately I
> discovered that times when I tend the fire more often and smell the smoke
> for long periods, the q isn't as flavorful. Next day it tasted great!
>

> -CAL


No It wasn't just me and the leftovers were short on flavor also. Now don't
get me wrong, it wasn't horrible... just not as superb as the weekend
before. I'm just trying to improve my technique so as to have the best
possible que every time.


Thanks for all the input, I guess I'll just have to keep trying and
trying.... oh well life is hard. Going to be hard having to eat all those
"practice que's", but I'll suffer through ;-).


As far as your LS smoke comment....I don't want to go there...lol


Dan

>
> Were you the only one to notice the lack of smoke flavor? I notice that
> there are times my q tastes soso but others rave about it. Ultimately I
> discovered that times when I tend the fire more often and smell the smoke
> for long periods, the q isn't as flavorful. Next day it tasted great!
>

> -CAL


No It wasn't just me and the leftovers were short on flavor also. Now don't
get me wrong, it wasn't horrible... just not as superb as the weekend
before. I'm just trying to improve my technique so as to have the best
possible que every time.


Thanks for all the input, I guess I'll just have to keep trying and
trying.... oh well life is hard. Going to be hard having to eat all those
"practice que's", but I'll suffer through ;-).


As far as your LS smoke comment....I don't want to go there...lol


Dan

>
> One word: Gremlins.
>
>
About how long do gremlins take and to what internal temp should I cook
them.

Also does anyone know of a good local supply for gremlins, my butcher is
unable to procure any for me.

Thanks
Dan

>
> One word: Gremlins.
>
>
About how long do gremlins take and to what internal temp should I cook
them.

Also does anyone know of a good local supply for gremlins, my butcher is
unable to procure any for me.

Thanks
Dan