Here I stand, hat in hand, looking for help again!

I am not sure what I am doing wrong, but I am having a terrible time
controlling the temp in my shiny new WSM. This is my 3rd cook with it,
and although the food has been good (read acceptable) I have not figured
it out yet. My turkey turned out good, because it was cooked at a much
higher temp (with the breast up, damn it).

My first brisket is in now. I filled the burn rack with RO lump and then
lit 20 kingsford bricks and put them on top of the lump, along with
smoking wood. The standard "Minion Method", right? Got the water pan
full of sand, covered with foil. I hope we can all agree that it is
acceptable to do this, right? Assembled the WSM with all Vents fully
open. When the temp at the grate got to about 150 F. I closed the 3
bottom vents to about 50%. When the temp got to 250 I set all 3 bottom
vents to 25%. when the temp got to 280 I closed one vent. Now here I sit
at 288 F. with 2 vents closed and the 3rd one at about 15% open and the
temp will not come down. I think that if I close it up any more the fire
will go out like it did on my first cook.

I think what is snowing me is that the temp seems to maintain in the
cooker even when the fire is dieing. I have 2 temperature indicators and
they both read the same so I know that it is not a case of a faulty
thermometer.

Give me some thoughts, please.
--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

Dave T. wrote:

> Here I stand, hat in hand, looking for help again!
>
> I am not sure what I am doing wrong, but I am having a terrible time
> controlling the temp in my shiny new WSM. This is my 3rd cook with it,
> and although the food has been good (read acceptable) I have not figured
> it out yet. My turkey turned out good, because it was cooked at a much
> higher temp (with the breast up, damn it).
>
> My first brisket is in now. I filled the burn rack with RO lump and then
> lit 20 kingsford bricks and put them on top of the lump, along with
> smoking wood. The standard "Minion Method", right? Got the water pan
> full of sand, covered with foil. I hope we can all agree that it is
> acceptable to do this, right? Assembled the WSM with all Vents fully
> open. When the temp at the grate got to about 150 F. I closed the 3
> bottom vents to about 50%. When the temp got to 250 I set all 3 bottom
> vents to 25%. when the temp got to 280 I closed one vent. Now here I sit
> at 288 F. with 2 vents closed and the 3rd one at about 15% open and the
> temp will not come down. I think that if I close it up any more the fire
> will go out like it did on my first cook.
>
> I think what is snowing me is that the temp seems to maintain in the
> cooker even when the fire is dieing. I have 2 temperature indicators and
> they both read the same so I know that it is not a case of a faulty
> thermometer.
>
> Give me some thoughts, please.

Maybe I missed something, but is your concern that your pit
temp is 288 F?

For most stuff that wouldn't bother me a bit. There are a few
items where I want a lower temp (certain types of seafood, homemade
sausage etc), but for standard Q anywhere around that temp is just
fine.

Also, sand in the pan is definitely the way to go.

--
Reg

Dave T. wrote:
> Here I stand, hat in hand, looking for help again!
>
> I am not sure what I am doing wrong, but I am having a terrible time
> controlling the temp in my shiny new WSM. This is my 3rd cook with it,
> and although the food has been good (read acceptable) I have not figured
> it out yet. My turkey turned out good, because it was cooked at a much
> higher temp (with the breast up, damn it).
>
> My first brisket is in now. I filled the burn rack with RO lump and then
> lit 20 kingsford bricks and put them on top of the lump, along with
> smoking wood. The standard "Minion Method", right? Got the water pan
> full of sand, covered with foil. I hope we can all agree that it is
> acceptable to do this, right? Assembled the WSM with all Vents fully
> open. When the temp at the grate got to about 150 F. I closed the 3
> bottom vents to about 50%. When the temp got to 250 I set all 3 bottom
> vents to 25%. when the temp got to 280 I closed one vent. Now here I sit
> at 288 F. with 2 vents closed and the 3rd one at about 15% open and the
> temp will not come down. I think that if I close it up any more the fire
> will go out like it did on my first cook.
>
> I think what is snowing me is that the temp seems to maintain in the
> cooker even when the fire is dieing. I have 2 temperature indicators and
> they both read the same so I know that it is not a case of a faulty
> thermometer.
>
> Give me some thoughts, please.

Try shutting down the vents sooner. I agree that 288 isn't the end of
the world for good Q, but if you close vents sooner, the fire won't get
ahead of you. Be patient. One vent at 15% is where I often ran mine
before I got a Stoker.

/d

Reg wrote:
> Dave T. wrote:
>
>> Here I stand, hat in hand, looking for help again!
>>
>> I am not sure what I am doing wrong, but I am having a terrible time
>> controlling the temp in my shiny new WSM. This is my 3rd cook with it,
>> and although the food has been good (read acceptable) I have not
>> figured it out yet. My turkey turned out good, because it was cooked
>> at a much higher temp (with the breast up, damn it).
>>
>> My first brisket is in now. I filled the burn rack with RO lump and
>> then lit 20 kingsford bricks and put them on top of the lump, along
>> with smoking wood. The standard "Minion Method", right? Got the water
>> pan full of sand, covered with foil. I hope we can all agree that it
>> is acceptable to do this, right? Assembled the WSM with all Vents
>> fully open. When the temp at the grate got to about 150 F. I closed
>> the 3 bottom vents to about 50%. When the temp got to 250 I set all 3
>> bottom vents to 25%. when the temp got to 280 I closed one vent. Now
>> here I sit at 288 F. with 2 vents closed and the 3rd one at about 15%
>> open and the temp will not come down. I think that if I close it up
>> any more the fire will go out like it did on my first cook.
>>
>> I think what is snowing me is that the temp seems to maintain in the
>> cooker even when the fire is dieing. I have 2 temperature indicators
>> and they both read the same so I know that it is not a case of a
>> faulty thermometer.
>>
>> Give me some thoughts, please.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but is your concern that your pit
> temp is 288 F?
>
> For most stuff that wouldn't bother me a bit. There are a few
> items where I want a lower temp (certain types of seafood, homemade
> sausage etc), but for standard Q anywhere around that temp is just
> fine.
>
> Also, sand in the pan is definitely the way to go.
>
Hi Reg,

Thanks. maybe I'm being too anal. When I decided to go rattlesnake
hunting for the first time in my life, I went and bought a book on
rattlesnakes. Same thing with the WSM. the book (the bullet website)
says to cook a brisket at 225 F. I guess I'm worried about drying it out
at 288.

At any rate, I am still going to have to learn how to control the temp
better than I am right now.

--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

Dave wrote:
> Dave T. wrote:
<snip>

Now
>> here I sit at 288 F. with 2 vents closed and the 3rd one at about 15%
>> open and the temp will not come down. I think that if I close it up
>> any more the fire will go out like it did on my first cook.
<snip>
> Try shutting down the vents sooner. I agree that 288 isn't the end of
> the world for good Q, but if you close vents sooner, the fire won't get
> ahead of you. Be patient. One vent at 15% is where I often ran mine
> before I got a Stoker.

First off, as for the "breast up" statement, although I
didn't chime in on the other thread, I'm with you. ;-)

As for the temp on the WSM: I run mine with foil covered
sand in the bowl as well.

I don't use any briquettes though. I don't know if that
could cause a problem or not.

I just use hardwood lump. Depending on what I'm doing, I may
put a bed of unstarted lump in first if I need a long cook,
then I load up a Weber chimney and fire that up. When that's
going, I dump it in the WSM and assemble it, all vents wide
open.

When the thermometer that I have at the bottom rack level
gets to around 150 or so I shut all three bottom vents down
to maybe 10% and take it from there. The top vent should
remain 100% open.

From there I just see what temp it gets to and adjust
accordingly.

I know what the books say, but I usually target my temp at
250dF and we've been very happy with the results for Que.


--
Steve

Steve Calvin wrote:

> I know what the books say, but I usually target my temp at 250dF and
> we've been very happy with the results for Que.
>
>

I'd be happy too if I could get 250dF. d> With 2 vents closed and the
3rd at 15% it has crept up to 295 now at hour 4. But I won't let my
heart be troubled. So far since I started doing this early this year, I
have found that even when something doesn't turn out right it is still
enjoyable eating. Just a matter of degrees, and it will all come with
experience. I have to keep telling myself that the most important thing
is not to get excited.
--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

"Dave T." > wrote:

> Thanks. maybe I'm being too anal. When I decided to go rattlesnake
> hunting for the first time in my life, I went and bought a book on
> rattlesnakes. Same thing with the WSM. the book (the bullet website)
> says to cook a brisket at 225 F. I guess I'm worried about drying it out
> at 288.
>
> At any rate, I am still going to have to learn how to control the temp
> better than I am right now.

It's all part of a learning curve,Dave. I have a Kamado and sometimes I
still have temp control issues.
Don't think I'm being flip when I say that you sometimes hafta let the
cooker run where IT wants to run on a given day.
I'd also call 225F the lower end of the scale for cooking a brisket in a
vertical unit like a WSM.
Drying out isn't really an issue until way later in the cook,when the
internal temp of the meat is over 180F.

monroe(don't worry until the temp spikes over 350F)

Dave T. wrote:
> Steve Calvin wrote:
>
>> I know what the books say, but I usually target my temp at 250dF and
>> we've been very happy with the results for Que.
>>
>>
>
> I'd be happy too if I could get 250dF. d> With 2 vents closed and the
> 3rd at 15% it has crept up to 295 now at hour 4. But I won't let my
> heart be troubled. So far since I started doing this early this year, I
> have found that even when something doesn't turn out right it is still
> enjoyable eating. Just a matter of degrees, and it will all come with
> experience. I have to keep telling myself that the most important thing
> is not to get excited.

This is gonna sound stupid, but try opening the bottom three
vents but only to about 5% and see what happens.


--
Steve

Dave T. wrote:

> My first brisket is in now. I filled the burn rack with RO lump and then
> lit 20 kingsford bricks and put them on top of the lump, along with
> smoking wood. The standard "Minion Method", right? Got the water pan
> full of sand, covered with foil. I hope we can all agree that it is
> acceptable to do this, right? Assembled the WSM with all Vents fully
> open. When the temp at the grate got to about 150 F. I closed the 3
> bottom vents to about 50%. When the temp got to 250 I set all 3 bottom
> vents to 25%. when the temp got to 280 I closed one vent. Now here I sit
> at 288 F. with 2 vents closed and the 3rd one at about 15% open and the
> temp will not come down. I think that if I close it up any more the fire
> will go out like it did on my first cook.

There's a lag between changing the vents and the temperature,
and, if the fire is running hotter than you want, it can take
a while to bring it down.

Before I started using a pit controller, I operated my WSM
by closing two of the bottom vents always, and using the remaining
vent to control the fire.

You basically got your fire going where it'll run the pit at 290F.
The only way to get that temperature down is to get the fire to die
down a bit; I wouldn't totally close the vent, but 5-10% will get
what you want - then you may need to open it up again when the
temperature is close to what you want. Just change the vent a
little at a time, don't make huge changes in it, and, others
have advised, don't sweat the spikes, they're really no big
deal.

The other thing to consider is how much leakage you have around
the side-door; I probably could get Weber to send me a new one,
but my door didn't make a really good seal at all, so I spent some
time with pliers gently tweaking the edge of the door to make it
seal better. That helped immensely.

Dana

Steve Calvin wrote:
> Dave T. wrote:
>> Steve Calvin wrote:
>>
>>> I know what the books say, but I usually target my temp at 250dF and
>>> we've been very happy with the results for Que.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'd be happy too if I could get 250dF. d> With 2 vents closed and
>> the 3rd at 15% it has crept up to 295 now at hour 4. But I won't let
>> my heart be troubled. So far since I started doing this early this
>> year, I have found that even when something doesn't turn out right it
>> is still enjoyable eating. Just a matter of degrees, and it will all
>> come with experience. I have to keep telling myself that the most
>> important thing is not to get excited.
>
> This is gonna sound stupid, but try opening the bottom three vents but
> only to about 5% and see what happens.

Or close two of the bottom vents and open the third one only
10% for a while, basically what Steve said with less vents to
worry about.

Dana

Dana Myers wrote:



> Before I started using a pit controller, I operated my WSM
> by closing two of the bottom vents always, and using the remaining
> vent to control the fire.

This is where I was at. 2 of them closed and the 3rd one at maybe 15% open.
(snip)

> The other thing to consider is how much leakage you have around
> the side-door; I probably could get Weber to send me a new one,
> but my door didn't make a really good seal at all, so I spent some
> time with pliers gently tweaking the edge of the door to make it
> seal better. That helped immensely.
>
> Dana

My side door seems to fit OK, judging by the smoke that was leaking out.
Basically, no smoke coming out of the door, but quite a lot of smoke
leaking from about 1/4 of the circumference of the lid. I am certain
that this was caused by the probe wires holding the lid up. Will have to
think about what to do about that.

Could be that the directions I went by (from the weber site) were made
up specifically for the use of Kingsford briquet's and that might make
some difference in temperature control, but regardless of what the temp
was the timing was about right at 1 1/4 hrs/lb.

At any rate, the cook is done, the brisket is resting in the cooler
waiting for the rest of dinner to finish. The BW is making spuds aug
rotten d;> and corn bread. If it tastes like it smells and looks, I did OK.
--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

Steve Calvin wrote:

>
> This is gonna sound stupid, but try opening the bottom three vents but
> only to about 5% and see what happens.

Too late, cooks done. Next time I cook I'm gonna close everything down
the instant I get assembled, and see what happens.

--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

Dave T. wrote:
> Steve Calvin wrote:
>
>>
>> This is gonna sound stupid, but try opening the bottom three vents but
>> only to about 5% and see what happens.
>
> Too late, cooks done. Next time I cook I'm gonna close everything down
> the instant I get assembled, and see what happens.
>
Worth a shot I s'pose, but I don't think I'd shut it down
completely. A fire needs air.

One thing that would bother me would be the statement from
another of your posts saying:
"quite a lot of smoke leaking from about 1/4 of the
circumference of the lid."

You really don't want "quite a lot" of smoke.

Coming out of the circumference of the lid would trigger me
that something was wrong. It should only come out of the top
vent and should be much, if you can even see it.

I'd recommend losing the briquettes, going with lump only,
and try the vents as either I, or Dana suggested but cut the
air down well before you get to your target temp. Fires take
a while to adjust to the air supply.

In any event, I hope that your cook came out well.

--
Steve

Steve Calvin wrote:

> In any event, I hope that your cook came out well.

It came out very well indeed. Just got up from the table and the whole
fam damily voted me hero! The thinnest part on one edge got just a
little dry, but was still very edible. Tender, nice smoke, very
flavorful. The fat didn't render out as much as I had hoped that it
would, so the BW had to trim hers a little. I love the fat though, and
gobbled it.

I learned something today though. I spent the day sweatin' the details
for no reason. All in all, I'm happy with my first brisket.

The smoke leakage I spoke of only lasts a couple of minutes. I was at
the bottom of the sack of the hickory I was using, so the pieces were
kinda small. when I throw them in they would smoke heavily for a minute
because the fire was a little hot I guess. I'm gonna go back to soaking
the wood first. It didn't smoke as much when I did that, and the wet
wood would probably have helped in the fire control.

My thanks to everyone who pitched in to keep me in line. I appreciate it.

--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

"Dave T." > wrote:
> Steve Calvin wrote:
>
> > In any event, I hope that your cook came out well.
>
> [ . . . ]I'm gonna go back to soaking the wood first. []

Dave, I would strongly recommend against soaking the wood! Wrap it in foil.
Poke a few holes in the foil packet. That will prevent it from burning and
give you a more even smoke flow.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!
I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They
are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not
forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

Dave T. wrote:

> I learned something today though. I spent the day sweatin' the details
> for no reason. All in all, I'm happy with my first brisket.

Welcome to BBQ. It's some of the tastiest food you'll ever eat
and making it should be one of the most *relaxing* things in your
life. It achieves this by either ignoring (if you're lucky) or
punishing (more often than not) you for "trying too hard". It's a
Zen thing, really.

You've had a crash-course in that today :-)

Glad to hear the brisket was a hit. There will come a day
when you fire up the pit, prep the meat and throw it in,
and it'll be less work than watering the lawn to get food
that still amazes *you*, not to mention friends and family.

Good work -
Dana

Nick Cramer wrote:

> Dave, I would strongly recommend against soaking the wood! Wrap it in foil.
> Poke a few holes in the foil packet. That will prevent it from burning and
> give you a more even smoke flow.
>

That sounds like an even better idea! Thanks.
--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

Dana Myers wrote:
> Dave T. wrote:
>
>> I learned something today though. I spent the day sweatin' the details
>> for no reason. All in all, I'm happy with my first brisket.
>
> Welcome to BBQ. It's some of the tastiest food you'll ever eat
> and making it should be one of the most *relaxing* things in your
> life. It achieves this by either ignoring

Bingo. I start it, toss the meat on, cover it up and don't
f' with it until the remote goes off telling me that it's at
the temperature I set it for.

No muss, no fuss, and moste ot the time yields rave reviews.

Congrats Dave.


--
Steve

Dave T. wrote:
> Nick Cramer wrote:
>
>> Dave, I would strongly recommend against soaking the wood! Wrap it in
>> foil.
>> Poke a few holes in the foil packet. That will prevent it from burning
>> and
>> give you a more even smoke flow.
>>
>
> That sounds like an even better idea! Thanks.

After doing this, you can retrieve the wood chunk, unwrap
it, and find that it's now a piece of lump charcoal - and
toss it into the fire.

Anything less is wasteful :-)

Dana

"Dave T." > wrote in message t...
> Here I stand, hat in hand, looking for help again!
>
> I am not sure what I am doing wrong, but I am having a terrible time controlling the temp in my shiny new WSM. This is my 3rd cook
> with it, and although the food has been good (read acceptable) I have not figured it out yet. My turkey turned out good, because
> it was cooked at a much higher temp (with the breast up, damn it).
>
> My first brisket is in now. I filled the burn rack with RO lump and then lit 20 kingsford bricks and put them on top of the lump,
> along with smoking wood. The standard "Minion Method", right? Got the water pan full of sand, covered with foil. I hope we can all
> agree that it is acceptable to do this, right? Assembled the WSM with all Vents fully open. When the temp at the grate got to
> about 150 F. I closed the 3 bottom vents to about 50%. When the temp got to 250 I set all 3 bottom vents to 25%. when the temp got
> to 280 I closed one vent. Now here I sit at 288 F. with 2 vents closed and the 3rd one at about 15% open and the temp will not
> come down. I think that if I close it up any more the fire will go out like it did on my first cook.
>
> I think what is snowing me is that the temp seems to maintain in the cooker even when the fire is dieing. I have 2 temperature
> indicators and they both read the same so I know that it is not a case of a faulty thermometer.
>
> Give me some thoughts, please.
> --
> Dave T.
>
> Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
> Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

In my experiences, it's better to start out with a low themo and work your way up as opposed to starting hot and trying to lower
the temp.

B~

B~ wrote:
> In my experiences, it's better to start out with a low themo and work your way up as opposed to starting hot and trying to lower
> the temp.
>
Not having a WSM, my comment/question may not be appropriate... but on
my offset smoker when the smoking chamber got too hot, I'd open the
lid. The smoke and heat would pour out, the temperature would drop.
Then I'd adjust the intake vents and get the silly thing under control.
Not as good as keeping the fire under control, but it worked.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Recently Seen On A Bumper Sticker Near Your Home:
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Sqwertz wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:39:13 -0500, Steve Calvin wrote:
>
>> First off, as for the "breast up" statement, although I
>> didn't chime in on the other thread, I'm with you. ;-)
>
> Why? If you're that concerned about looks, then whatever. But
> most of us agree that putting brisket, picnic or shoulder fat
> side up. Why not to the same with a turkey or chicken?
>
> Losers!
>
> -sw

my loss, I suspect you'll get over it. You say tomato.....

--
Steve

Sqwertz wrote:

>> my loss, I suspect you'll get over it. You say tomato.....
>
> Ignorant is the person who refuses to listen to reason or try
> anything new, "Just Because".
>
> -sw

Stupidity is doing what someone else says you should do.

Example: Say you like your steak well done. You come to my
home for dinner and I'm making steaks. Should I refuse to
grill your steak well done because I think anything past
medium-rare is ruined? No freekin way - you want it that
way because that's how *you* like it. You're eating it so
why the hell should I care?

You may try and force your opinion on me all you would like,
just don't plan on succeeding.

--
Steve

Mike Avery wrote:
> B~ wrote:
>> In my experiences, it's better to start out with a low themo and work
>> your way up as opposed to starting hot and trying to lower the temp.
>>
> Not having a WSM, my comment/question may not be appropriate... but on
> my offset smoker when the smoking chamber got too hot, I'd open the
> lid. The smoke and heat would pour out, the temperature would drop.
> Then I'd adjust the intake vents and get the silly thing under control.
> Not as good as keeping the fire under control, but it worked.

I used to do that; it worked to get the temperature down fast,
but it actually increases the airflow to the fire so the fire is
likely to burn hotter immediately afterwards - so you really have to
close-down the vents.

The equivalent scheme with a WSM is to pull the side-door
off, and it has the same caution - it's likely to make
the fire burn hotter for a while, so you really have to
close it down.

Eventually, I learned not to sweat the temperature spikes,
so I do neither now, but, as luck would have it, once I learned
to relax about temperature spikes, I don't seem to get them.
The Zen of BBQ again :-).

Dana

On Nov 26, 11:02 am, Dana Myers > wrote:
>
> I used to do that; it worked to get the temperature down fast,
> but it actually increases the airflow to the fire so the fire is
> likely to burn hotter immediately afterwards - so you really have to
> close-down the vents.

Want to hear a counter intuitive thing I learned about my Klose at the
end of cooking season #2?

No?

Too bad, gonna tell you anyway. ;-)

My cooker's got two large ( 8 inches across) exhaust vents on the top
of the cooking chamber lid with your standard swivel/sliding dampers.
Grilling chicken both dampers full open of course with lower main
chamber intake open.
Now you'd think for BBQing you don't want to lose so much air and
smoke so I've been fully closing one exhaust and closing the other to
about 1/2 open and controlling the fire with the firebox damper. This
exhaust opening was still larger in diameter than you see on most
firebox rigs so figured this would work. This worked all right but
temps stayed pretty low and sometimes had a hard time getting over
225. Not so great.
Well I finally had extra time after a cook and had a good load of lump
burning and the cooker was heated up ( all 1,100 lbs. ) chugging along
so tried both exhaust stacks full open.

Yep, damn thing heated up in a hurry, going from 230 to over 300.

I'm still kinda scratching my head over it, but *shrug* can't ignore
results. Guess the thing was starved for air.

Nunya Bidnits wrote:

> How's the weather? I've found that my outdoor cookers, grills and smokers
> alike, are hard to control when directly in a stiff wind. If its cold and
> windy, the fire is naturally hotter already because the ambient temperature
> is lower, and that makes the problem worse. Then when you get the vents
> closed far enough to lower the temp, as you said, the fire goes out.
>
> Just a guess based on my impression that something is accelerating your
> fire.
>
> Also, how did you start your charcoal?
>
> MartyB in KC

I lit it up with the classic Minion Method, but in retrospect I am
confident that I just waited too long to close down the dampers. Too
much fuel had been ignited by the time I pinched everything down. I
suppose that gasoline I put in there didn't help much either.

The weather was beautiful...60's and still. It turned out not to
matter because the finished product was very good. This is a simple case
of a newbie over reacting, but I certainly do appreciate the help and
advice I've gotten from everybody.

--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

On Nov 26, 7:39 pm, "Dave T." > wrote:

> The weather was beautiful...60's and still. It turned out not to
> matter because the finished product was very good. This is a >simple case
> of a newbie over reacting, but I certainly do appreciate the help >and advice I've gotten from everybody.

Dave - once you get the Weber figured out, you'll love it. I just got
mine a few months ago, and I'm sorry I didn't jump sooner. All I
could think about when I saw it was a really overpriced Brinkmann.
Not so. It is a really nice piece of equipment to have in your
arsenal.

You can find all you will ever want to know about the WSM he

http://virtualweberbullet.com

I can now routinely get at will +/- 10 hour cooks with no added fuel,
no temp fall off, and no spikes. I have now done this several times
for shoulders and my favorite, brisket. Here's how:

Fill the charcoal basket about halfway with charcoal. I use the Royal
Oak all hardwood. (When researching this cooker, I ran into an
interview with a Weber company rep that was several years old, and he
said this cooker was designed on the late 70s, when charcoal was
king. It is made to be used with charcoal, not lump.) Then I put in
three or four fist sized pieces of my really dry smoking wood, and
fill the basket the rest of the way, leaving a small depression in the
middle. I make sure I have the end of the wood pieces exposed so they
will start to smoke immediately.

I use about 15 - 18 coals started in my chimney, and pour them around
in the depression, scattering them evenly across the top (Minion
style). I assemble the cooker and let it burn with all vents open for
about 15 minutes. Then I put the lid on, and let it heat up the sand
and the cooker for about another 20.

After that, I always leave the top vent open, but I close all three
vents down to about the thickenss of a 6 penny nail. The temp of the
cooker will still climb, and it will make 225 - 250 pretty quickly.
Apply the meat. Note the time. Go do something else.

I walk by about every 30 minutes for the first hour and a half, then
after that, I go for an hour or so without checking. After an hour
and a half if the weather is stable and it is night, I go to bed. The
most temp I ever lost was 15 degrees after a great 7 1/2 hour nap and
a chilly morning.

If you are cooking brisket, you really don't need to worry too much
about the temp spikes. On the WSM I cook it fat side down so it could
take a temp spike or two, and allow the meat to form a bark. Brisket
is pretty tolerant of temperature, and while I know the common
reasoning around here is 225, low and slow, I cook my bigger ones at
300 - 350 (have for 30 years), and the meat will still cut slices with
a dull knife and squirt juice. I like to cook 15 - 18 pound packers,
and at 225 I wouldn't be able to do anything else BUT smoke for the
weekend.

Don't worry about the temp spikes. Just because your thermo went up
50 degrees rapidly sure doesn't mean a good brisket did. Cut down the
air on the bottom vents and wait about 20 minutes and it will behave.

Good luck! Enjoy your WSM.

Robert

Sqwertz wrote:

> Duh. Isn't that what this, and plenty of other Usenet groups
> group is all about, for the most part?

No, it's for seeking OPINIONS. But that doesn't mean blindly
following them
>
> I was making a suggestion. You provided nothing to contradict
> what I was suggesting other than "Screw That".

I provided that WE like it the other way. That's enough for me.

>
> So, screw you.

How sophisticated, but then I shoulda known...


Now what's that old saying... "never argue with a fool....."

--
Steve

wrote:


> You can find all you will ever want to know about the WSM he
>
> http://virtualweberbullet.com


Sometimes you have to wonder about the information on this website. It
is so opposite of what I read on this NG. According to explicit
instructions for cooking a brisket (at the virtual bullet) the lower
vents are never closed below 50%.

> Fill the charcoal basket about halfway with charcoal. I use the Royal
> Oak all hardwood. (When researching this cooker, I ran into an
> interview with a Weber company rep that was several years old, and he
> said this cooker was designed on the late 70s, when charcoal was
> king. It is made to be used with charcoal, not lump.) Then I put in
> three or four fist sized pieces of my really dry smoking wood, and
> fill the basket the rest of the way, leaving a small depression in the
> middle. I make sure I have the end of the wood pieces exposed so they
> will start to smoke immediately.
>
> I use about 15 - 18 coals started in my chimney, and pour them around
> in the depression, scattering them evenly across the top (Minion
> style). I assemble the cooker and let it burn with all vents open for
> about 15 minutes. Then I put the lid on, and let it heat up the sand
> and the cooker for about another 20.
>
> After that, I always leave the top vent open, but I close all three
> vents down to about the thickenss of a 6 penny nail. The temp of the
> cooker will still climb, and it will make 225 - 250 pretty quickly.
> Apply the meat. Note the time. Go do something else.

All of the above is "Precisely" what I did, right down to using the same
fuel, except for the vents. I did what was recommended at the virtual
bullet by leaving the vents open 50% and ended up with a runaway fire.

> I walk by about every 30 minutes for the first hour and a half, then
> after that, I go for an hour or so without checking. After an hour
> and a half if the weather is stable and it is night, I go to bed. The
> most temp I ever lost was 15 degrees after a great 7 1/2 hour nap and
> a chilly morning.
>
> If you are cooking brisket, you really don't need to worry too much
> about the temp spikes. On the WSM I cook it fat side down so it could
> take a temp spike or two, and allow the meat to form a bark. Brisket
> is pretty tolerant of temperature, and while I know the common
> reasoning around here is 225, low and slow, I cook my bigger ones at
> 300 - 350 (have for 30 years), and the meat will still cut slices with
> a dull knife and squirt juice. I like to cook 15 - 18 pound packers,
> and at 225 I wouldn't be able to do anything else BUT smoke for the
> weekend.

I wasn't able to find a packer cut, all I could find was a flat at Sam's
club. It was about 6 lbs.

-Cut to the Chase-

It turned out great! I posted my OP while the cook was still going on,
and it turned out that;

A. I got nervous and over reacted, and

B. I reaped a wealth of info from folks such as yourself.

The main thing that I know is that I WILL get there. I love to eat good
food too much not to.



--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

On Nov 27, 8:14 pm, "Dave T." > wrote:

SNIP

> -Cut to the Chase-
>
> It turned out great! I posted my OP while the cook was >still going on,

Isn't that really all that matters? If it turned out well, write it
down and do it again the same way next time. Success!

> and it turned out that;
>
> A. I got nervous and over reacted, and
>
> B. I reaped a wealth of info from folks such as yourself.

I hope you continue to post and ask questions here, no matter what the
answers you get may be. Discount the profane, one way answers...
there are too many ways to get to the end when you cook. There are
probably a lot of individuals that have questions that don't post here
due to the bullying that goes on here from time to time.

Post away.

I don't think you should take anyone's point of view on something so
subjective as cooking processes and tastes to heart. Especially when
all you have to go on is what is said on the net. Try out any methods
or recipes you think sound interesting, then decide which ones you
like. Then the fun begins when you modify the recipes and methods to
suit yourself and make them your own.

Remember all the variables that go into writing some of the things (I
am thinking of the virtual weber site in particular, but it also works
for smokingmeatforums, barbecuebible, thesmokering, etc.) that work
for other folks and remember that they are only writing what works for
them. Just temper any advice or instruction you read with your own
experiences and you will do great.

As for me, I have to bite my tongue when I see these pop up:

- mopping makes your brisket more tender
- basting makes your bird more tender
- a water bowl in the cooker makes meat more moist
- the only way to cook brisket is low and slow
- mesquite is too strong flavored to cook with
- "true" barbecue can only be done on an offset cooker
or bullet

Yet, these are widely held beliefs, almost cherished by some.

So hammer away over there, and let everyone know how you are doing.
If you care to search, there is an old post back there a few weeks ago
when I posted my trial run with sand instead of water in the pan.
Outside of mounting a grill level thermo on the unit, this was the
easiest, cheapest and best upgrade I could have done.

Robert

In article >,
says...
>
> Sometimes you have to wonder about the information on this website. It
> is so opposite of what I read on this NG. According to explicit
> instructions for cooking a brisket (at the virtual bullet) the lower
> vents are never closed below 50%.

I'm a relative newbie myself, having bought a wsm a few months ago and
having done about a dozen smokes with it.

I've found the virtual bullet to be a great site, but as with most of
these things I find it be a a good guide but not to be taken as rules
etched in stone.

One small thing that I at least *think* I've observed: RO lump burns
hotter than Kingsford briquettes. And, as far as I can tell, the recipes
on the virtual bullet site all call for the briquettes.

Maybe I'm wrong about that but it seems to me that once I switched to
lump my temps were higher unless I stopped the vents down more.

Another thing that I seem to be observing (though this will take more
experimentation to be sure): it seems to me that messing with the top
vent creates a larger response in temperature than I get with the bottom
vents. Oh, and as somebody else mentioned, there is quite a delay in
temperature response, too, so it's easy to "over correct".

Next, I think all the recipes at the virtual bullet call for water in
the pan - using sand instead you'll defninitely get higher temps unless
you stop the vents down more than recommended on that site.

otoh, I have to say that I'm worrying about temp spikes less and less
since everything seems to come out great, including my first briskett
(which I did over night a while back).

--
Bill

Dave T. wrote:

> wrote:
>
>
> > You can find all you will ever want to know about the WSM he
> >
> > http://virtualweberbullet.com
>
>
> Sometimes you have to wonder about the information on this website.
> It is so opposite of what I read on this NG. According to explicit
> instructions for cooking a brisket (at the virtual bullet) the lower
> vents are never closed below 50%.

If you're refering to the "Midnight Cook", I see that they're using
water (although initially boiling) in the pan. My experience has been
that you need more "fire" when you're using water. I don't recall what
you used.




Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Default User wrote:


> If you're refering to the "Midnight Cook", I see that they're using
> water (although initially boiling) in the pan. My experience has been
> that you need more "fire" when you're using water. I don't recall what
> you used.

Yes, the midnight cook is the one I read. I think that using water will
carry away a lot of the heat. The main reason I don't want to use water
is that it makes a real mess. Here is the problem with that; What to do
with the oily greasy water when done cooking? I have no place in the
yard I can dump or bury it, and if the BW catches me carrying it into
the toilet I might as well flush myself along with the grease. It's
settled. Sand is better.

I laugh at myself now over my concern with that temperature. Everything
I've cooked has been great, IMHO. Maybe I just used it as an excuse to
post. Good enough reason for me.

Doing ribs on the grill tonite.

--
Dave T.

Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time,
Because then you won't have a leg to stand on.

Denny Wheeler wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 04:29:06 GMT, Sqwertz >
> wrote:
>
>>> I provided that WE like it the other way. That's enough for me.
>> Yet you're going to great lengths to evade the fact that you have
>> never tried it right-side down.
>
> A. One doesn't evade facts.
>
> B. On what basis do you make the claim he's never cooked turkey breast
> side down?
>
> C. Both of you might consider growing up. Neither of you is KSW,
> after all.
>
> -denny-

kf'd squirtz a couple of days ago. I don't know why you're
telling me to grow up for defending my position of I like
what I like and won't be belittled for it. Attack me for
liking what I like, and we're gonna have a problem.



--
Steve

In article >,
LID says...

> Certainly easier and cheaper than adding a thermo. I've yet to do
> that. Dunno quite why--I've got drills, hole saws, and HD is all of
> 1/2 mile away.

I've just gone the simple route and put a candy thermo through a cork
which I fit in one of the top vents. If I want all top vents closed I
plug them all with cork.

The one downside is that I can't have all the top vents open with the
thermo in there, but that's not been an issue so far.

--
Bill

Nunya Bidnits wrote:

> I like the idea of using sand. Has anyone tried starting it with damp
> sand to get some initial moisture? I find a water pan at the
> beginning of the cook helps the seasonings penetrate before the bark
> forms and seals the meat.

How would that occur? Mositure in a pit is one of those things which belies
logic and science.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Dave Bugg wrote:
> Nunya Bidnits wrote:
>
>> I like the idea of using sand. Has anyone tried starting it with damp
>> sand to get some initial moisture? I find a water pan at the
>> beginning of the cook helps the seasonings penetrate before the bark
>> forms and seals the meat.
>
> How would that occur? Mositure in a pit is one of those things which belies
> logic and science.
>

Not really, the water is there to help avoid temperature spikes. When
it evaporates, it cools the pit. Therefore when the temperature starts
to spike, more water evaporates and more cooling happens. If you want
to understand the science part, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_vaporization

- dave

On Nov 29, 3:35 pm, Dave > wrote:

> Not really, the water is there to help avoid temperature >spikes. When it evaporates, it cools the pit.

The water is in the cooker as a heat sink to help keep the temperature
up. Personal experience with a water bowl will tell you the lower the
water gets, the more susceptible to temp spikes the cooker is while in
use. We know since the same surface area is exposed for evaporation
whether the water bowl is completely full, or 1/8 full yields
completely different (opposite) results, you can see that the actual
evaporation has little to do with function of the water in the bowl as
a coolant.

In fact, using your model, the lower the bowl is in water the more
aggresively it would boil or convert to vapor since the btu intake
would be significantly reduced as the mass of the water reduces.
Again in this model, increased vaporization would lead to a _colder_
smoker, not a hotter one prone to termperature spikes. Field
experience tell us the opposite of this to be true.

>Therefore when the temperature starts to spike, more >water evaporates and more cooling happens. If you want
> to understand the science part,

While the science of the webpage is completely sound, I think the
model is applied incorrectly in this instance. If the water in the
bowl turns to vapor (steam) in a closed environment under constant
temp and pressure, it cannot cool since it will remain a gas. If it
cannot return to a liquid state, (say for instance inside a hot
cooker) there will be no cooling effect as the two key variables
(again, look at your model) heat and pressure are unchanged.

Soo.... unless you have seen your cooker sweat inside, no cooling is
taking place.

Given the constant temp of a pit, a closed vessel maintaining a
constant pressure in which the water was heated, I see no cooling
benefit whatsoever. The water simply converts to vapor (steam) and
goes out the vents.

The intent of the water is to help manage heat. Sand, bricks, or even
cement same thing in your water bowl.

Robert

On Nov 29, 12:54 pm, "Nunya Bidnits" > wrote:

SNIP

> I like the idea of using sand. Has anyone tried starting it >with damp sand to get some initial moisture?

You cannot infuse the meat with water in an open cooker. If you want
to infuse your meat with water on a cooker, put the meat in foil and
let it steam.

I put wet play sand in my WSM when I tried switching to sand, and that
was a really wild thing to see. The water did its job, pulling in a
lot of heat and maintaining temps well. HOWEVER.....

The water turned to steam and released all its energy when it boiled
and went out the vent. And the water can only hold so many BTUs
before it vaporizes. The sand on the other hand has almost an
infinite capacity to hold heat. Once the water was gone and the sand
was all that was left, the temps zoomed up to almost 400 in short
order. That sand held that temp for about 20 minutes before the
thermo even moved, with the bottom vents closed.

It took an hour or better to get back down to smoking temps.

Using the same setup with _dry_ sand, it is steady as a rock, and much
more temp stable than with water.

Robert

wrote:
> On Nov 29, 3:35 pm, Dave > wrote:
>
>> Not really, the water is there to help avoid temperature >spikes. When it evaporates, it cools the pit.
>
> The water is in the cooker as a heat sink to help keep the temperature
> up. Personal experience with a water bowl will tell you the lower the
> water gets, the more susceptible to temp spikes the cooker is while in
> use. We know since the same surface area is exposed for evaporation
> whether the water bowl is completely full, or 1/8 full yields
> completely different (opposite) results, you can see that the actual
> evaporation has little to do with function of the water in the bowl as
> a coolant.
>

Yes, the lower the water, the less cooling effect and therefore more
spikes. The water isn't much of a heat sink since the highest temp it
can possibly maintain is 212F. Also, it would seem that the surface
area isn't constant as you stated, but decreases as the water level
decreases.

The key here is that the cooling is a result of the phase change from
liquid to gas. The rate of evaporation then determines the amount of
cooling. Smaller surface area mean less evaporation.

> In fact, using your model, the lower the bowl is in water the more
> aggresively it would boil or convert to vapor since the btu intake
> would be significantly reduced as the mass of the water reduces.
> Again in this model, increased vaporization would lead to a _colder_
> smoker, not a hotter one prone to termperature spikes. Field
> experience tell us the opposite of this to be true.
>
>> Therefore when the temperature starts to spike, more >water evaporates and more cooling happens. If you want
>> to understand the science part,
>
> While the science of the webpage is completely sound, I think the
> model is applied incorrectly in this instance. If the water in the
> bowl turns to vapor (steam) in a closed environment under constant
> temp and pressure, it cannot cool since it will remain a gas. If it
> cannot return to a liquid state, (say for instance inside a hot
> cooker) there will be no cooling effect as the two key variables
> (again, look at your model) heat and pressure are unchanged.

Well, I doubt your smoker is a constant temp and pressure chamber.
Heck, most smokers are open to the atmosphere.
>
> Soo.... unless you have seen your cooker sweat inside, no cooling is
> taking place.
>
> Given the constant temp of a pit, a closed vessel maintaining a
> constant pressure in which the water was heated, I see no cooling
> benefit whatsoever. The water simply converts to vapor (steam) and
> goes out the vents.

Again, it would have to be a closed system to maintain constant pressure.
>
> The intent of the water is to help manage heat. Sand, bricks, or even
> cement same thing in your water bowl.
>
> Robert
>

There are many ways to manage heat. Bricks, sand, etc. act like a
flywheel. Water has the same heat storage ability, but can cool as well
due to evaporation. There is a difference.

Dave