We've just moved into a new house and will be renovating the
kitchen, This means that I have the opportunity to get a new
gas stove.

The gas stove at our old place was a Magic Chef which had all kinds
of design problems such as an oven vent which discolored the
back splash (or whatever you call that on a stove) the first
time the self-cleaning feature was used. The stove top had
sealed gas burners which were set in depressions in the enamel
top to contain spills and to make cleaning nearly impossible.

However, the oven was a dream. It had an electronic control
system which allowed setting the oven temp in 5-degree digital
intervals and would beep when the oven was up to temperature.
It did a beautiful job of maintaining temperature and did a
good job in keeping the top and bottom oven racks at about the
same temperature.

Although I'm not excited about the price tags, my spouse is
looking at the Viking and Wolfe product lines. While I like
some of their features, these pseudo-commercial ranges lack
many of the convenience features of higher end consumer ranges
by GE and others.

I bake bread twice per week on average and both my spouse and
myself are avid cooks who enjoy working in the kitchen.

The trendy thing appears to be "dual fuel" ranges with gas
cooktops and electric ovens. In my experience, electric ovens
produce a drier baking environment that gas ovens (in which
combustion yields water vapor and carbon dioxide.) Bread baking
seems to favor humidity.

This is a major purchase decision and I would appreciate input
from the folks in rec.food.baking who actually use stoves
for baking and not just to look impressive in the kitchen.

Regards,
The Old Bear

Hi --

Consumer reports did a thing on ovens and ranges not so long ago, maybe
a couple of years? It might be worth looking up at your library.

We have two ovens, both inexpensive. Both set the temp digitally (in 1
degree intervals) and beep when the temp has been reached, so perhaps
that is a commonplace feature now.

If I were getting a new range (I keep hoping the old one will die so I
can justify it :-) I would be sure to get HEAVY burner covers. Mine
slide around every time I use a heavier pot on the range. (No sealed
burners; the range is old.) I'd also make sure I could put a SMALL pot
on the burner and not have it tip because of the center hole. Perhaps
sealed burners solve both these problems? I've never laid eyes on
sealed burners so don't know.

One of our ovens is convection. I find a never use the convection
feature. I use the self-clean feature all the time.

I hope these rambling thoughts help,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

Hi --

Consumer reports did a thing on ovens and ranges not so long ago, maybe
a couple of years? It might be worth looking up at your library.

We have two ovens, both inexpensive. Both set the temp digitally (in 1
degree intervals) and beep when the temp has been reached, so perhaps
that is a commonplace feature now.

If I were getting a new range (I keep hoping the old one will die so I
can justify it :-) I would be sure to get HEAVY burner covers. Mine
slide around every time I use a heavier pot on the range. (No sealed
burners; the range is old.) I'd also make sure I could put a SMALL pot
on the burner and not have it tip because of the center hole. Perhaps
sealed burners solve both these problems? I've never laid eyes on
sealed burners so don't know.

One of our ovens is convection. I find a never use the convection
feature. I use the self-clean feature all the time.

I hope these rambling thoughts help,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

One feature that we like on our new stove ( ours is a jenn Air, but lot's of
them have this now), is the grates over the burners form a continuous top
made out of 2 pieces, you can place a small or large pan anyplace and it
sits level. The grates themselves fit into each other and sit on silicone
pads and don't slide at all. For small pots, there is a tiny little
'simmer' burner located right between the other 4, not used often, but it is
there and the tiny gas ring and small hole in the grate suits the size of a
tiny pot quite well. The sealed burners don't affect the placing of pots,
they are below the grates the pots sit on, ours are nice in that spilled
stuff never gets inside the stove so you can wipe it right up, the downside
is that the whole top is somewhat recessed which makes cleaning it a little
annoying, you can't just easily wipe the stuff off onto the floor them
sweep.

--

Mikey S.
http://www.mike721.com


"Beth Kevles" > wrote in message
...
> If I were getting a new range (I keep hoping the old one will die so I
> can justify it :-) I would be sure to get HEAVY burner covers. Mine
> slide around every time I use a heavier pot on the range. (No sealed
> burners; the range is old.) I'd also make sure I could put a SMALL pot
> on the burner and not have it tip because of the center hole. Perhaps
> sealed burners solve both these problems? I've never laid eyes on
> sealed burners so don't know.
>

I'm pretty new to baking and far from an expert but for the last couple of
months I have been baking bread 3 times a week or so and I can't find fault
with my gas oven ( a less than a year old Jenn air stove), the electronic
temp. control seems to be quite accurate and it beeps when it reaches temp
too, the same way your old one did. My wife says this oven is much more
accurate than the old one was, but then again, that one was 30 years old and
a cheap wall mounted oven so that doesn't say much.
About my only gripe about the oven is that the oven controls are on the
rear, and while this saves space and makes for a bigger, less obstructed
cooktop surface ( I think) it does mean occasionally reaching over 5 boiling
pots ( if my wife is cooking while I'm baking) to adjust the oven or cooking
timer. Not a problem if your careful..but you do need to watch what your
doing. See my other comments in this thread about the cooking surface, it
works great but it seems to suffer from the same cleaning issues you
mentioned in your post.
I didn't get the convection option but my brother just bought the same
stove with it and since I installed his only yesterday I haven't really
seen it in action, once I get a chance to bake with it I'll see what I am
missing.

I think you may be right about the gas making for a moister oven, I have
been baking sourdough this last week and while I did add a pan of water to
the bottom just on principles, the oven never seemed to be dry anyway..but
to be honest I have never used electric so I can't really compare them, it
just seems logical.

--

Mikey S.
http://www.mike721.com


"The Old Bear" > wrote in message
news
>
> I bake bread twice per week on average and both my spouse and
> myself are avid cooks who enjoy working in the kitchen.
>
> The trendy thing appears to be "dual fuel" ranges with gas
> cooktops and electric ovens. In my experience, electric ovens
> produce a drier baking environment that gas ovens (in which
> combustion yields water vapor and carbon dioxide.) Bread baking
> seems to favor humidity.
>

IMHO, these pseudo-commercial ranges are seriously over-hyped. I will be
looking for a new range for a new house in September, and I will not be
looking at those, only residential brands.

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

On 5 Mar 2005 15:02:33 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
> wrote:

>IMHO, these pseudo-commercial ranges are seriously over-hyped. I will be
>looking for a new range for a new house in September, and I will not be
>looking at those, only residential brands.

We have a Viking cooktop, not a commercial style but still has that
look with features such as very heavy grates, 6 burners and is
stainless. While I do like that it has varying ranges of BTU's on the
burners, I find that it is very difficult to keep (the grates) clean
and the SS is prone to scratch easily. Both of the above drawbacks
would also be true of any commercial style range, IMO. If I were to
do it again, I would probably opt for (I think it's a Thermador)
cooktop. Our Dacor double convection oven is an outstanding appliance
and I love it.

The OP did not ask about cooktops, but I thought these observations
were noteworthy.

Ginny

If you live in the US, look at and consider
http://www.aga-ranges.com/models/ranges.htm

They have top of the line ranges which are available as gas only or as
gas and electricity. In other parts of the world this brand can be
obtained as coal burning, if memory serves, but you are not likely to
want one of those. There is a dealer locator on this web site for the
US. Note that these stoves are expected to last OVER 100 YEARS!


To quote from their site re the biggest of their ranges as sold in the
US,
=================
The classic 4-oven Aga cooker is the flagship of the Aga line. Based
on a proven design of more than 70 years, the 4-oven Aga provides a
truly unique and rewarding cooking experience. With 4 radiant-heat
ovens, two hotplates, warming plate, and optional gas cook top, this
Aga has unmatched flexibility and cooking capabilities. It's a true
culinary thoroughbred. For those who want to add a conventional gas
cooktop, we have a gas 2-burner option.

Agas are available in a wide range of models and colours, starting
from $5000.

Dimensions: 33 1/2"H × 26 3/4"D × 58 3/4"W
Materials: Durable cast iron covered by three coats of vitreous enamel
in one of 15 colors. Click here for color options.
Estimated Operating Life: 100+ years (excluding burner and
thermocouples).
Maintenance: Yearly on-site "check-up"
Installation: Requires certified Aga fitter for proper installation.

Weight: 1290 lbs - No Point Load
Oven/Burner: 15,000 BTU burner. Simple cleaning of ovens and
cooktops with wire brush.
Venting Options: Power Vent (through floor). Standard Flue
(through roof). Direct Vent (exterior wall vent).
Fuel Options: Natural Gas, Propane
Warranty: 1 year parts and labor
==================
RsH
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:49:11 -0500, (The Old Bear)
wrote:

>I bake bread twice per week on average and both my spouse and
>myself are avid cooks who enjoy working in the kitchen.
>
>The trendy thing appears to be "dual fuel" ranges with gas
>cooktops and electric ovens. In my experience, electric ovens
>produce a drier baking environment that gas ovens (in which
>combustion yields water vapor and carbon dioxide.) Bread baking
>seems to favor humidity.
>
>This is a major purchase decision and I would appreciate input
>from the folks in rec.food.baking who actually use stoves
>for baking and not just to look impressive in the kitchen.
>
>Regards,
>The Old Bear
>

================================================== =====
>
Copyright retained. My opinions - no one else's...
If this is illegal where you are, do not read it!

We have a Viking range and the functionality is great, but the
reliability stinks and the customer service is much worse. They
originally provided knobs that broke in normal use and thought it was
completely reasonable that a knob should only last two years and that I
should happily pay $35 each for replacements. (They finally changed the
design, but no free replacement parts for the suckers who bought the
defective ones.) The igniters for the oven run several hundred bucks a
pop and according to the customer (non)service reps have an expected
service life of 2-3 years. We've had several welds break in the frame
and are just living with it because repairs will run into the thousands.
Viking of course denies that there is any possibility of a manufacturing
issue there. Makes me yearn for my 60 year old Caloric.

Aside from that (how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?) I would
certainly go with a commercial stove again. The big burners and massive
cooktop are a joy, and the oven produces fabulous baked goods.
Convection makes a huge difference.

For me a stove is a tool, not a display item so I expect it to look
well-used, and I don't expect a working kitchen to be pristine. The oven
and grates are hard to clean, but don't need it very often because the
stuff just burns off eventually. These stoves are not for picky
housecleaners--way too many nooks and crannies where dirt can hide and
you will make yourself crazy of you try to keep them polished at all times.

So by all means look at commercial ranges if you are into serious
cooking, but avoid Viking like the plague.

Roger


> Although I'm not excited about the price tags, my spouse is looking
> at the Viking and Wolfe product lines. While I like some of their
> features, these pseudo-commercial ranges lack many of the convenience
> features of higher end consumer ranges by GE and others.
>

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:08:40 -0500, Roger
> wrote:

> These stoves are not for picky
>housecleaners--way too many nooks and crannies where dirt can hide and
>you will make yourself crazy of you try to keep them polished at all times.

Most people don't realize that a "commercial stove" probably isn't
shut off long enough to be "buffed and polished". After all, it IS a
piece of cooking machinery.



The Fine Art of Cooking involves personal choice.
Many preferences, ingredients, and procedures may not
be consistent with what you know to be true.
As with any recipe, you may find your personal
intervention will be necessary. Bon Appetit!

whatever stove you get. consider using a surge protector. Replacement of
electronic controls cost a great deal.

alkem

We remodeled the kitchen last year and chose a Dacor electric oven and
a separate Dacor gas cooktop.

After a year of use I'm satisfied though not ecstatic. I bake bread
twice a week, pizza once a week and maybe a dinner. The oven works
well for bread with even heat and good temp control.

A couple of gripes: be certain to verify that the model oven you're
interested in runs the way you "would expect it to"... as far as fan
operation, temp display, audible beeps, etc. Here's why: Our oven
(model MCS130S) can run in Convection mode if desired; it will also do
a 'delay bake' where you can set the stop time as well as the total
cooking time. It then deduces when to start. HOWEVER, (and I think
this is REALLY STUPID), it wants to run the convection fan during the
entire delay time, regardless of the chosen settings for the bake to
occur! Why, I have no idea. It seems a real waste of both fan bearing
life as well as a little electricity, not to mention the possible
detrimental drying effect on whatever food might be sitting inside
waiting to cook. I think this is a programming bug, but I can't get
any kind of coherent answer from Dacor other than "that's the way the
oven is designed to operate".

Others have also found that Dacor isn't as "customer-centric" as we
customers might hope. Is this the way all giant, important
corporations treat their customers?

I've also found that if you have the temp probe plugged into the oven
and set to run after the delay expires and baking begins, the fan DOES
NOT run during the delay, so it's clearly someone's mistake in code
design which they either won't own up to or actually don't even know
about, which doesn't seem likely.

The only problem we've had with the cooktop is that now, several of the
igniters aren't firing reliably so sometimes it's tricky to get a
burner lit. I think this could be a cleaning issue so I'd have to
defer on this one until we have time to buff out the spark plugs and
see what that does to the problem though. The sealed burners are nice,
and really a breeze to clean though. Our designer cautioned us that
you only want to buy a Viking if you're really "into taking lots of
things apart all the time to clean it". I've also heard of
reliabililty issues with Viking, which you wouldn't expect after
spending the kind of money they want for their stuff.

Wolfe is really nice but damned expensive. They DO however have a
really cool baking stone accessory for their ovens that has it's own
dedicated heating element, and the whole thing just plugs into a socket
in the oven. What a great way to get a really hot stone... but you
need to part with around $3500 to get hooked up with this one.

Also: if you're a serious cook and appreciate high heat on occasion, be
sure you TEST the vent hood you're considering prior to purchase. We
went with advice to get a Broan "Allure", and I'm sorry we did; it does
a lousy job sucking real smoke off the cooktop, even though it makes
enough noise that you'd think it was in fact doing something. Get CFM,
and probably one fan per side is a good idea too; the Broan uses a
single fan on the left side and has a "path" to the other but there's
hardly any air moving on the right... it just doesn't work well at all.

Off subject, but we went with Silestone for the countertops; it never
needs sealing as does Granite, and it looks fantastic. Check it out.

Good luck!

We just received our new GE. It is a replacement for a Whirlpool that
was a lemon.
This range is around $895. I checked the temp and it is right on. Has
a 15000 BTU burner that works wonderfully for stir fries.
I am really happy with the oven after four
years of having one that couldn't warm a pizza in the center. Looks
like this is a good bet.