Felix Kraften says,

>I am aware that there are baking enthusiasts who are able to derive
>therapeutic benefits from _feeling_ a sticky mess turn into an elastic

>dough. Regrettably, I do not have what it takes. So I have to make
>do with a dough hook and appearances.
>Also, I am suspicious of advice based on experience with manipulating
>large quantities of dough (and its predecessors)

Suspicions are in the mindset of bakers( hobbyist and even
tradesman) that lack practical experience... and are narrow minded
and (even lazy) to make correlations from the effects of different
levels of production scales.
IMO If there is anybody whom I perceive to be more knowledgeable than
me in a particular field or work situation, If in theory his
concepts are valid, I still enthusiastically listen to him and never
scoff at his ideas that is contrary to my experience and training.

>The material handling
>problems of large quantities of dough are irrelevant in a kitchen and
>the needed temperature controls are different.

I do not think so.... When ever I create and develop a new dough
recipe I start in small scale batches using the Hobart 10 quart dough
mixer with just 500- 1 kilogram of flour in a test kitchen. Then I
gradually scale it up to larger batches using a larger similar mixer
that can accommodate 5-10 kg of flour in the bakery bench.
Then I also try that with other types of mixers available such as
spiral mixer, reciprocating arm mixer, vertical cutter mixer, other
mixing equipment etc and to see if the results are the same.
The ingredients ratios are the same but the mixing times and speeds
may vary to accommodate the different level of mixing efficiency with
different machines; but the bottom line is to obtain dough with
consistent dough development level from the smallest to the bigger
mixing equipment
If the product is really interesting and a potential sales getter
....it can be scaled up in production scale to hundreds of kilograms
basis.And it can be easily scaled down again in the smallest batch
possible with ordinary kichen equipment but taking into consideration
the peculiarity of the equippment at different scales and other
processing factors:The product can still come out the same.
That will confirm that the recipe is indeed robust.
Indeed in normal food production process there are scaling issues that
are to be considered as the large scales batches had different
requirements if compared to smaller batches but that is not absolutely
true with dough preparation.
This means that scaling up and scaling down are relative to each other.
If I can see a problem at the small scale trials; that can also happen
in larger scale if not taken into consideration and also conversely:

>So I start to sit up when I read of:


>That information would be even more interesting if it related to a
>Kenwood Chef and not a Kitchen Aid mixer - since I own one of the
>former and the latter is probably not available in Australia.

I am not particular fan of the kitchen aid mixer but it do works in
small quantities of dough but its robustness is not on par with the
similar institutional machines such as the Hobart N-50, C-100. etc..
> For a varied explanation but dedicated to artsanal baking using a
> specimen of a french bread 'The Taste of Bread by Raymond Calvel.
Here
> calvel have a different idea how a bread dough should be mixed . He
is
> partial that the dough should be only be mixed nearly half developed
> and no more.
>

>I suspect that I have already been following his advice routinely.

>And not from choice. I may have taken too seriously the possibility of

>irreversible degradation of the dough caused by over mixing.

Over mixing can happen occasionally if you are negligent with your
mixing schedules or were pre occupied with other things that you forget
about it. But if it do happen, and the level of over mixing is not
extreme. I just allow the dough to relax for some time before
subsequent manipulation and it will recover its desired quality and
come out satisfactory when baked.
Now regarding your previous question that you posted earlier about how
to determine if the dough is half or two- thirds mixed can be simply
gauged by the total mixing time you exert in the dough. Bakers do the
same thing with larger machines. If the mixing machines has a timer
its very easy to do.
Just like for making Danish pastry and croissant dough whether prepared
in small quantities or larger batches with practice you can easily
discern if it needs more mixing or it had enough. It follows the same
principles that the dough should be only partially developed to give
allowance for strenuous dough manipulation effort it has to undergo
later in the production process.


Roy

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:39:18 -0800, Roy wrote:

> Felix Kraften says,
>
>
>>The material handling problems of large quantities of dough are
>>irrelevant in a kitchen and the needed temperature controls are
>>different.
>
> I do not think so.... When ever I create and develop a new dough
> recipe I start in small scale batches using the Hobart 10 quart dough
> mixer with just 500- 1 kilogram of flour in a test kitchen.
>
SNIP

>
>>That information would be even more interesting if it related to a
>>Kenwood Chef and not a Kitchen Aid mixer - since I own one of the
>>former and the latter is probably not available in Australia.
>
> I am not particular fan of the kitchen aid mixer but it do works in
> small quantities of dough but its robustness is not on par with the
> similar institutional machines such as the Hobart N-50, C-100. etc..

Needless to say, this is news to me (and possibly to others that do
not enjoy hand-kneading). I too have great reservations about the
robustness of what I use. But beggars cannot be choosers. This is the
first reference that I have encountered to mixers that were built for
dough mixing. It remains to be seen if these mixers are available here
and will fit into a kitchen and a home budget.

Product development from lab-bench through pilot-plant to production is
a familiar model. My suspicions grow when the lab bench is located in a
microbiology laboratory.

Thank you for taking the time and the trouble to respond.

Felix Karpfen


--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:39:18 -0800, Roy wrote:

> Felix Kraften says,
>
>
>>The material handling problems of large quantities of dough are
>>irrelevant in a kitchen and the needed temperature controls are
>>different.
>
> I do not think so.... When ever I create and develop a new dough
> recipe I start in small scale batches using the Hobart 10 quart dough
> mixer with just 500- 1 kilogram of flour in a test kitchen.
>
SNIP

>
>>That information would be even more interesting if it related to a
>>Kenwood Chef and not a Kitchen Aid mixer - since I own one of the
>>former and the latter is probably not available in Australia.
>
> I am not particular fan of the kitchen aid mixer but it do works in
> small quantities of dough but its robustness is not on par with the
> similar institutional machines such as the Hobart N-50, C-100. etc..

Needless to say, this is news to me (and possibly to others that do
not enjoy hand-kneading). I too have great reservations about the
robustness of what I use. But beggars cannot be choosers. This is the
first reference that I have encountered to mixers that were built for
dough mixing. It remains to be seen if these mixers are available here
and will fit into a kitchen and a home budget.

Product development from lab-bench through pilot-plant to production is
a familiar model. My suspicions grow when the lab bench is located in a
microbiology laboratory.

Thank you for taking the time and the trouble to respond.

Felix Karpfen


--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)