My wife age 48 has a passion for baking and pastry making. She
would like to enroll in a 18 month culinary school.

1. What is the standard wage including benefits working
in a hotel or restaurant in your city?

2. Is your passion for baking lost once in out of school
and in the real world?

3. Is the baking industry going mass production based more
on quanity instead of quality? Such as bakery products
being sold at Costco, supermarkets etc.

4. If wages are low being an employee will owning your own
bakery very profitable? Is owning your own bakery a 80
hour job?

Please spend a few minutes to answer these important
questions. As you could guess my wife wants to eventually
own here own bakery. I, her huband has owned my own business
since 1978 and it is very difficult to explain to my wife
that with retail leases, workmens comp, employee problems
equipment purchase,80 work week etc. she should keep her
baking as a hobby instead of a profession. Unless she could
make a good salary as an employee I feel culinary school would
be a waste of time?

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Mike

If your wife has a passion for baking, and wishes to enroll in culinary
school, you should support her in her endeavor, reguardless of her potential
for income-producing or future professional prospects. While in school, she
will find more resources to help her decide if professional baking is suited
for her goals and desires.

Nothing is a waste of time if it engages the spirit and feeds the soul.

(delurking to get on a soap box)

--
Wendy
http://griffinsflight.com/Quilting/quilt1.htm
de-fang email address to reply


"Mike Faraday" > wrote in message
om...
> My wife age 48 has a passion for baking and pastry making. She
> would like to enroll in a 18 month culinary school.
>
> 1. What is the standard wage including benefits working
> in a hotel or restaurant in your city?
>
> 2. Is your passion for baking lost once in out of school
> and in the real world?
>
> 3. Is the baking industry going mass production based more
> on quanity instead of quality? Such as bakery products
> being sold at Costco, supermarkets etc.
>
> 4. If wages are low being an employee will owning your own
> bakery very profitable? Is owning your own bakery a 80
> hour job?
>
> Please spend a few minutes to answer these important
> questions. As you could guess my wife wants to eventually
> own here own bakery. I, her huband has owned my own business
> since 1978 and it is very difficult to explain to my wife
> that with retail leases, workmens comp, employee problems
> equipment purchase,80 work week etc. she should keep her
> baking as a hobby instead of a profession. Unless she could
> make a good salary as an employee I feel culinary school would
> be a waste of time?
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful response.
>
> Mike

(Mike Faraday) writes:

>From: (Mike Faraday)
>Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
>Subject: Please help settle a husband-wife argument !!
>Date: 18 Apr 2004 20:00:25 -0700
>
> My wife age 48 has a passion for baking and pastry making. She
> would like to enroll in a 18 month culinary school.
.. . .


The Boston Globe just did a food feature story on culinary schools
and the demand for their graduates.

It's still available online at:
http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articl...t_to_be_a_chef

There is also a companion story which ran the same day and is about
high school kids who are preparing to go on to college-level culinary
programs:
http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articl..._students_at_t
he_stove/

(You may have to cut-and-paste to get this long links onto one line in
your web browser.)

Unfortunately, the tabular comparison of several culinary programs is not
available from the Globe's online site. If MrsBear has not tossed it out,
I'll try to locate it and post the information. It compared tuition
costs, length of program, average graduate salary, percent of students
placed in jobs, etc.

Cheers,
The Old Bear

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 20:00:25 -0700, Mike Faraday wrote:

> My wife age 48 has a passion for baking and pastry making. She
> would like to enroll in a 18 month culinary school.

I did that when I was 53.. pretty good school. Curriculum mirrored CIA
(except shorter of course). Could easily have switched over to a 2
year degreed course.

I would advise her to go to a school that specializes in pastry. That line has
the better salaries. My culinary courses spent a very little time on a lot of
subjects. The baking instructor gained his Master's Baker status during this
time. There were also 2 semesters devoted to baking. Still it wasn't time
enough to really learn things BECAUSE .... Becoming good at baking and pastry
is much about doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over...
I mean years and years.. same thing. You make *a lot* of good looking product.
That's what makes a professional not how good tasting your cakes, pies and
breads are. A home baker can make incredibly good stuff but will they get up
at 1AM and make 300 of them in an hour???

SPEED is very important.. real quick.. place rolls on a hotel pan perfectly
spaced and staggered picking up four at a time.

Bread makeup... very quick. Lots of muscle trauma. Heavy lifting.

Hours... bye bye happy couple. LOL... almost just kidding. Hours are horrible.

Advise... have her go hang out at a local bakery for a month or so. People do
this all the time. Find an small independent bakery that seems interesting.
Offer to help out for free. Whatever, the most important things about becoming
a professional baker you won't learn in school, believe me, unless you've been
baking for a couple years, that's when going to school really helps.

(Mike Faraday) wrote in message . com>...
> My wife age 48 has a passion for baking and pastry making. She
> would like to enroll in a 18 month culinary school.
>
> 1. What is the standard wage including benefits working
> in a hotel or restaurant in your city?
Do not be concerned with wages, once your wife will be graduating
from the culinary school she will need some time to practice those
learned skills.
Worrying about wages is the last thing you will do if you really had a
true passion for the baking craft.
> 2. Is your passion for baking lost once in out of school
> and in the real world?
Passion for such activity will not wane because as your knowledge
increase your fervor for your hobby will intensify.In fact It will
be spiritually uplifting experience to some people.
> 3. Is the baking industry going mass production based more
> on quanity instead of quality? Such as bakery products
> being sold at Costco, supermarkets etc.
If you are a graduate of such baking school and had such luck in
attaining a level of wisdon in a short time; the more you will care
less about the difference between mass produced bread as you do with
artisanal products. But you will understand it more and will cease to
be discriminating, and stop thinking that what is made by plant
bakery is crap and what is made by small bakery as the good item.
They are just different version of baked products as there are
different types of races.....it has its own features.
Indeed in business everything should be mass produced for optimum
profitabiity.
But Quality and quantity are not relative in most cases. As there are
niche items that are highly profitable as well.You may need to produce
less of unique items (but is sold at higher price) to maintain the
desired craftmanship level which will impress your customer, inspire
other clients as well as maintain their loyalty. But you must
specialize on certain things that you believe has an edge in your
enterprise vicinity ,as that will mean more success for your business
, than than being a mere copycat.
> 4. If wages are low being an employee will owning your own
> bakery very profitable? Is owning your own bakery a 80
> hour job?
Any food manufacturing concern is considered a low margin enterprise
and that includes bakery business. In addition bakery jobs are not
high paying as other non food professionals also.If you intention of
running a bakery business as highly profitable then think of
something else.
You find baking an interesting enterprise then go for it but do not
think about that you are earning much money like othes such as for
example the IT business people .
If one of your intention of studying the course is to gain practical
ideas (before you start your own bakery business)you are partly right
as most baking schools try to emphasize the commercial side of the
baking craft.There are business management subjects that are part of
curriculum.In some pastry courses there is even a subject such as how
to open and run your pastry or coffeeshop.
But to be a succesful businesperson in this line, its preferable to
gain first hand experience as a bakery employee )before you run the
business yourself.So that you will have a solid idea about the ins
and out of the real bakery business.
Having laid the groundwork through formal study you will learn the
rope faster( than the unschooled bakery workers hence you will
progress faster . BE reminded also that Bakery work as well as
running a bakery business is a full time job.It is hard work.I have
seen many bakery owners who wake up daily 3 am in the morning and
sleep at 12 PM at night.
In many bakeries the job ia 10-12 hour job specially if you are doing
artisanal baking, but usually an 8 hour job if your are an employee
in plant baking.

Once your wife has finished the course she will have an idea what
particular line of bakery product is she deeply interested and that
will be the basis for the product line she will run later.
People who are fresh from school are so idealistic that lose the sense
of the reality what the bakery business is all about in the long run.
I have seen culinary gradualtes who are cocky and had enough funds
to open their own business after they graduated but getting bankrupt
in a short time. And in the same way I had seen a lot of former
employed bakers( who had not even attended a baking school who became
very succesful in running their own bakery business.
I think the bottom line in running a business is acumen not baking
skill.But you will be very successful if you combine both.
> Please spend a few minutes to answer these important
> questions. As you could guess my wife wants to eventually
> own here own bakery. I, her huband has owned my own business
> since 1978 and it is very difficult to explain to my wife
> that with retail leases, workmens comp, employee problems
> equipment purchase,80 work week etc. she should keep her
> baking as a hobby instead of a profession. Unless she could
> make a good salary as an employee I feel culinary school would
> be a waste of time?
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful response.
>
> Mike
Indeed the business word is complex and has many pitfalls for any
enterpreneur minded invidual. And you are cautioning your wife (based
from your experience).
But is not good to douse the avid interest of your better half.
What your wife need is an encouraging husband who will help nurture
the interest of his beloved .
You are his partner then you should never be pessimistic with her
interest rather try to motivate here at most....I have a feeling and
think,that the real reason for your lack of interest in this line
is....
that you just feel insecure if your wife will find herself and
independent businesswoman later on.You will lose her respect
especially if she will become overly succesful than you are later.
On the other hand if....
If she want to know more about her hobby from a professinal setting
then its good for her. You should be pleased with your wife's
interests.
From that study she will improve her baking skills and can provide
your family with a more delectable products which become the envy of
your friends and neighbors. AS based on experience ,It is likely that
soon somebody will start noticing yor wife baking expertise and will
begin ordering those bakery goods from your wife and that could
become the springboard for his bakery business whether she planned it
or not. Indeed Professional Culinary study offers many opportuniities
than just practicing a hobby that is devoid of vocational training.
Therefore the enlightenment that result from culinary study has its
benefits to her hobby and will in likelihood end in a productive and
profitable endeavor in the long run.
On the other hand.....
However if the root of your quarrel is beyond baking,....then there
might be other reasons.

If after all those years you are becoming insecure with your marriage
and your love for its other is already waning then consult a marriage
counselor or a divorce lawyer not a baker.
Roy

(The Old Bear) writes:

>Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
>From: The Old Bear
>Subject: Please help settle a husband-wife argument !!
>Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 00:05:35 -0500
>
(Mike Faraday) writes:
>>
>> My wife age 48 has a passion for baking and pastry making. She
>> would like to enroll in a 18 month culinary school.
>. . .
>
>
>The Boston Globe just did a food feature story on culinary schools
>and the demand for their graduates.
>
>It's still available online at:
>http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articl...t_to_be_a_chef
>
>Unfortunately, the tabular comparison of several culinary programs is not
>available from the Globe's online site. If MrsBear has not tossed it out,
>I'll try to locate it and post the information.


I was in luck and MrsBear was still in the process of clipping out the
interesting recipes -- and had not cut up the comparison table beyond
recognition as yet.

Best viewed with a monospace type face like Courier or Corporate Mono:

================================================== ====================

MAIN COURSES
------------
Snapshots of some prominent cooking schools, nationally and
in New England.


ATLANTIC CAMBRIDGE CULINARY
CULINARY SCHOOL OF INSTITUTE
ACADEMY CULINARY ARTS OF AMERICA
Dover, NH Cambridge, MA Hyde Park, NY
----------------- ----------------- -----------------

STUDENTS 250 An average of 2,300 in
200 students degree programs
annually

STUDENT/ 15:1 About 9:1 18:1
TEACHER
RATIO


COST $35,000 for $19,500 for $18,260 annually
15-month for 10-month
program professional's
program

PLACEMENT 98 percent 77 percent According to an
RATE alumni survey
in '01-'02,
98 percent were
employed within
6 months

================================================== ====================

cont'd

FRENCH CULINARY NEWBURY COLLEGE NEW ENGLAND
INSTITUTE CULINARY ARTS CULINARY INSTITUTE
new York City Brookline, MA Three Vermont
locations plus
British Virgin
Islands satellite
----------------- ----------------- -----------------

STUDENTS About 1,200 160, of which About 700
graduate about 120 annually
annually are full time

STUDENT/ 11:1 About 15:1 7:1
TEACHER
RATIO

COST About $30,000 $15,500 annually About $21,000
for professional for full-time annually
certificate students
(6 or 9 months)

PLACEMENT Two to three 98 percent Well over
RATE job offers per 95 percent
per graduate placed immediately;
grads leave with
two or three job
offers each


SOURCES: School Representatives

================================================== ====================


I hope this is helpful.

Cheers,
The Old Bear

(Mike Faraday) wrote in message . com>...
> My wife age 48 has a passion for baking and pastry making. She
> would like to enroll in a 18 month culinary school.
>
> 1. What is the standard wage including benefits working
> in a hotel or restaurant in your city?
>
> 2. Is your passion for baking lost once in out of school
> and in the real world?
>
> 3. Is the baking industry going mass production based more
> on quanity instead of quality? Such as bakery products
> being sold at Costco, supermarkets etc.
>
> 4. If wages are low being an employee will owning your own
> bakery very profitable? Is owning your own bakery a 80
> hour job?
>
> Please spend a few minutes to answer these important
> questions. As you could guess my wife wants to eventually
> own here own bakery. I, her huband has owned my own business
> since 1978 and it is very difficult to explain to my wife
> that with retail leases, workmens comp, employee problems
> equipment purchase,80 work week etc. she should keep her
> baking as a hobby instead of a profession. Unless she could
> make a good salary as an employee I feel culinary school would
> be a waste of time?

I can't answer specific questions about wages, likelihood of
employment, etc. but I think your wife owes it to herself to try.
Let's say she has 15-20 years of working ahead of her...might as well
be something she enjoys and feels passionate about. Everyone wants
that, few actually do it. I hope she doesn't feel dissuaded by her age
either. I know a woman who went to law school at the age of 50.

Even if you win this battle, think about whether you'll win the war
too - my dad talked my mother out of going to graduate school because
he was retiring and he wanted to travel and have fun. My mother had a
mind of her own, of course, but agreed to put grad school aside. Years
later, she regretted it - and don't think that she didn't resent my
dad on some level too. So that's something to think about, whether
your wife is going to feel as though you've put the kibosh on her
dream or not.

I don't know much about the catering business, but is it possible for
her to try her hand at this before committing to opening her own
bakery? Get an idea of demand, build contacts, etc.

It sounds like you're really concerned about the financial
implications of this; is there a way you can sit down with your wife
and sketch a business plan for a future bakery? If you're "too close"
to the issue, is there an impartial third person who can talk with her
about the logistics of financing, etc.?

Wendy has a good answer on one level; here's another take on the question.

> > 1. What is the standard wage including benefits working
> > in a hotel or restaurant in your city?
> >
Remember, baking is an hourly-wage job, and may necessitate union
membeership.

> > 2. Is your passion for baking lost once in out of school
> > and in the real world?
> >

Think of how many people graduate culinary school and are still in the
industry 10 years later. I have no data, but given the failure rate of
food-related businesses -- restaurants, bakeries, etc. -- I don't think it's
anything to write home about. The other question should be, "Will you spoil
a hobby by making it a business?" That's a real danger and more than
anecdote. The woods are full of stories of people who loved to cook and
opened a restaurant. Typically they fail within a year. Admittedly, this
is anecdotal evidence, but where there's smoke there's fire.

> > 3. Is the baking industry going mass production based more
> > on quanity instead of quality? Such as bakery products
> > being sold at Costco, supermarkets etc.
> >

I think the process has just started. However, I take a more sanguine view
on this phenomenon. I think that while the parbaked goods will push out the
inefficient and "me-too" bakers, it will give the public a taste of and for
good bread. The next level is Mr and Mrs J Q Public searching for
different, maybe local varieties from local bakers. Offer good product,
something that represents value and is a bit different, and you stand a
chance.

> > 4. If wages are low being an employee will owning your own
> > bakery very profitable? Is owning your own bakery a 80
> > hour job?
> >
Isn't owning your own business always a more-than-full-time job?

In the final analysis, the best thing to do is talk to a bunch of people in
the business. Find a good local bakery and ask for a job there for a few
months. Get an idea of what a typical day is like and what goes on. I
admit this isn't the course of action that she is planning, but baking isn't
rocket science and doesn't require a lot of education to get started in the
industry. She will find out whether her dream can stand the cold 4AM starts
and the 120 degree kitchens. After she's worked there for six months, she
will be better able to decide what she wants to do and what the prospects
are in the industry.

Barry

> > Please spend a few minutes to answer these important
> > questions. As you could guess my wife wants to eventually
> > own here own bakery. I, her huband has owned my own business
> > since 1978 and it is very difficult to explain to my wife
> > that with retail leases, workmens comp, employee problems
> > equipment purchase,80 work week etc. she should keep her
> > baking as a hobby instead of a profession. Unless she could
> > make a good salary as an employee I feel culinary school would
> > be a waste of time?

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:10:53 GMT
"barry" > wrote:

> Wendy has a good answer on one level; here's another take on the
> question.
>
> > > 1. What is the standard wage including benefits working
> > > in a hotel or restaurant in your city?
> > >
> Remember, baking is an hourly-wage job, and may necessitate union
> membeership.
>
> > > 2. Is your passion for baking lost once in out of school
> > > and in the real world?
> > >
>
> Think of how many people graduate culinary school and are still in the
> industry 10 years later. I have no data, but given the failure rate
> of food-related businesses -- restaurants, bakeries, etc. -- I don't
> think it's anything to write home about. The other question should


Yeah, my mother wanted me to enroll in the culinary arts program at
Utah Valley State College when i got laid off from my software job and
couldn't find another.

She's was under this impression that i could jump right from their
two-year program to a life long career with no speed bumps, because her
friend's son jumped right from their (admittedly well respected) CA
program to the head chef at a country club. Never mind that I've
eaten at said club and don't recommend it. Doesn't understand that this
sort of job probably happens to maybe the top 2% of any graduating
class, and the vast majority of graduates probably spend the first year
or so doing vegetable prep for less than you'd make at a gas station.

Of course, my mother grew up during a labor shortage in Oakland
and literally got all of her early jobs by walking around the business
district and looking for "help wanted" signs.

My father is equally warped - but in an entirely different way.
Wrangled for a summer job at a sheet rock factory when he was a
teenager, showed up, joined the union, had a day of training, and then
lived on strike wages for the whole summer because there was a rail
strike and he was at the tail end of a 70 mile rail way at the gypsum
mine and couldn't get home. Read the completed works of Shakespeare all
summer, decided he wanted to be an english major. Became an english
major, got a doctorate, got tenure, fast forward 30 years. Yeah.

My parents didn't understand what exactly the job market has been for
the last two-plus years until they decided to have some work done on
their roof, and had six estimates within two hours of posting an ad that
they were seeking bids. More than 20 estimates within 24 hours. Suddenly
realized, "Hmm, people seem to be hard-up for work." and became very
sympathetic.


> be, "Will you spoil a hobby by making it a business?" That's a real
> danger and more than anecdote. The woods are full of stories of
> people who loved to cook and opened a restaurant. Typically they fail
> within a year. Admittedly, this is anecdotal evidence, but where
> there's smoke there's fire.


Most new businesses fail within a year, there are mountains of
empiric evidence supporting this statement. Sit-down restaurants are a
particularly difficult business, often with razor-thin profit margins.
It's anecdotal, but it's said that if you have $40,000-$200,000 that you
need to shove down the dispose-all, by all means open a restaurant.

Bakeries obviously are different, but not entirely different.