Janet,

there may be some misunderstanding - it was pumpernickel dough!
Hydration 70 % with very coarse, partially cracked 100 % rye kernel
mixture. There is absolutely nothing keeping it together. Like you have
1/2 very large cup of oatmeal and put in milk so it's just good wet and
then stir with a chopstick. The stick moves right through the mass of
wet oats flakes.

There was absolutely no development, just the necessity to mix the
water, grain stuff, starter and salt well. When the dough hook drew it's
circles in the mass, my jaw fell open - what?

How I actually mixed it, I don't remember, but it was no big deal,
probably some stirring spoon.

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> I'm glad that I read this thread. So what did you do after the hook just
> cut circles? How did you judge the correct amount of kneading by hand. I
> had a new recipe run out of oomph on me the other night. I did the wet hand
> kneading, got what I judged to be correct development and the rise in the
> bowl went well.
> However, the formed loaves rose just enough not to be
> bricks, but not what I was expecting. I've been trying to analyze possible
> problem areas. I'm using a preferment(sour). This recipe works for others,
> I just don't know where my weakness is and I'm not very good at analyzing
> rye. Suggestions?

If I would know more that mixture of grains you are talking about,
maybe?

If you are talking pure rye, it needs a certain amount of sourness to
defeat some enzymatic activity or it gets into brick territory.

Samartha

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