Dutch wrote:
> "Martin Willett" > wrote
>> Can you really see a difference between "laws of nature" which Bentham is
>> against, and "Real natural laws (and rights)"?
>>
>> The quote clearly shows that he thinks the entire concept of laws of
>> nature a.k.a. natural laws is wrong-headed, that no such things exist
>> until laws are created. Laws create rights, they don't reveal them.
>
> I think this is somewhat simplistic. Yes there are "legal rights" which only
> exist based on laws, but before thare are laws there are principles like
> fairness or 'natural justice' which cause us to see for example that the
> brutal murder of a child is wrong, or the subjugation and exploitation of
> women. In my view this sense of natural justice evolves from our nature as
> highly intelligent, empathic social animals.
>
>

So you seem to be saying that rights don't exist until laws create
them and that we create laws because we feel obligations. Animals don't
have rights that we deny, we think we owe them some obligations,
although we often differ on the details. What exists before laws create
rights exist not in the agent who gets the rights but in the minds of
those who would create the law.

For an animal to have rights before a law exists would require some
authority to insert them and something to contain them. That is
superstitious nonsense. (On stilts).

Rights begin as a sense of duty in the minds of beings capable of
negotiating agreements, co-operating and recognizing breaches of
agreements. Duties come first. The decision to accept a duty, a decision
that accepting such a duty is reasonable and should be agreed by all is
the second step. Framing a law follows. The final step is implementing
the law. At no time before the final step does a right exist. Laws
create rights, they don't reveal them.

Bentham was against those who proclaimed rights that people did not
recognize and I think he was right to do so. A right which is not
recognized is like the sound of no hands clapping. To create a right you
have to get people to accept a duty, bleating on about rights that won't
exist until you have won the debate is futile or counter-productive. And
if people will not accept the duty then the right will not exist.
--

Martin Willett


http://mwillett.org/