"Waldo" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Brian Huntley wrote:
>> (Cross-postings removed)
>
> Cross-postings restored - there may be parties who are interested in
> seeing this Snopes article answered.
>
>> Waldo wrote:
>> > Kosher Certification means ONE thing: That the product conforms
>> > to
>> > Jewish Religious Superstition - or as in the case of bleach
>> > above, that
>> > the Jewish Kash-R-Us agencies are unscrupulous con artists that
>> > are
>> > busily doing what Jews have always done best - separating
>> > gullible
>> > Gentiles from their money.
>>
>> I doubt I can change your mind, but for the edification of others,
>> here's the Snopes page about this:
>> http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/kosher.htm
>
>
> Thanks for not attacking me with insults and epithets, Brian. As you
> were kind enough to post the Snopes article, would you indulge my
> commentary on the article and Barbara Mikkelson's analysis?
>
> My comments will appear in [brackets].
>
> Begin Snopes article:
>
> <quote>
>
> _______________________________________
>
> Claim: Certain symbols displayed on the packaging of a variety of
> grocery items signify that their manufacturers have paid a secret
> tax
> to the Jews.
>
> [First, Mikkelson is starting with a false premise: That the fees
> paid
> to the Kashrus (Kosher Certification) agencies, and the costs
> incurred
> by the companies in fulfilling the demands placed on them by the
> Kashrus agencies is a "tax". It is true that many ignorant and/or
> overzealous persons have incorrectly used the word "tax" to
> describe this financial burden, which is ultimately born by *all*
> consumers of the affected products, but the term is inaccurate, and
> defenders of the Kosher Kabal try valiantly to use this error to
> pooh-pooh the entire scheme]

In fact calling Kosher certification a tax is exactly what Jew haters
like Waldo do. Its prejudicial and inaccurate usage is emblematic of
all the arguments people like Waldope use, when the only motivation
they truly have is their Jew hatred. Waldope himself once tried to
defend using the term "tax" by citing a minor dictionary definition
for the word.

Since it is so widely used by these fringe types, it is perfectly
understandable and proper that it should be addressed first in
rebutting their nonsense.

> Status: False.
>
> [Remove the word "tax" form the false premise, and you can replace
> Mikkelson's "false" with "true".]

This is what passes for serious argument in Waldope's world.

On the other hand, simply removing the word "tax" renders the sentence
meaningless.

> Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]
>
> [It should be noted that Mikkelson was obviously careful to select
> an
> article that was written by persons who are ignorant on the subject,
> and have no credibility. Aztlan? Oh please!]

Waldope likes to think his ignorance on the subject is special!
>
> [<begin article that Mikkelson intends to "debunk">]
>
>
> The "Kosher Nostra Scam" on the American Consumer
>
> By Ernesto Cienfuegos
> La Voz de Aztlan
>
> Los Angeles, Alta California - (ACN) La Voz de Aztlan receives
> quite a few "news tips" per week from our many subscribers and
> readers.
> Some we dismiss immediately but a very few catch our attention. Last
> week we receive an e-mail asking us if we knew the significance of
> the
> small encircled letter "U" or letter "K" that can be found printed
> on
> many food cans, food packages and on other kitchen products. The
> message gave us some clues and suggested that we do some research
> into
> the subject. What we found certainly was "news" to us and it both
> shocked and angered us.
>
> On arriving at my residence, I immediately went to the pantry to
> verify that what I had just learned was actually true. Sure enough,
> most of the packaged and canned foods from major companies, like
> Proctor & Gamble and others, did have the (U), the (K) or other
> similar
> markings. The Arrowhead water bottle, the instant Folgers Coffee,
> the
> Kelloggs box, the Jiff Peanut Butter, the Pepper container, the
> Trader
> Joe's tea box and even the Glads plastic sandwich bags carton had
> the
> (U) or (K) mark on them.
>
> [All true]

Gee, no kidding!

> We needed a little more verification so we called two major
> companies to asked some questions. We chose Proctor & Gamble that
> markets the Folgers Coffee and the Clorox Company that manufactures
> the
> Glads plastic zip lock sandwich bags. Each of the two companies, as
> well as most others, have 1-800 telephone numbers printed on their
> packages for consumers to call in case they have any questions about
> their products. When we asked the Proctor & Gamble representative
> what
> the (U) meant on their Folgers Coffee container, she asked us to
> wait
> until she consulted with her supervisor. She came back and informed
> us
> that the mark meant that the coffee was " certified kosher". We than
> asked her how and who certified the coffee to be "kosher" and
> whether
> it cost any money to do so. She refused to answer these and other
> questions. She suggested that we write to their Corporate Public
> Affairs Department. We than called the Clorox Corporation to ask
> what
> the (U) meant on the package of their Glads plastic sandwich bags
> and
> she also said that the (U) meant that the plastic bags were "kosher"
> but refused to answer questions concerning payments the Clorox
> Corporation has to make in order to be able to print the (U) on
> their
> products.
>
> [Of course I can't verify the phone conversations, but all of the
> above appears to be factual. Indeed, companies are *very* tight
> lipped
> when it comes to their Kosher certification processes. ]

No more so than they are about a myriad of fees they pay to many other
companies for services rendered.

>I suspect that
> this is because of non-disclosure agreements they were required to
> sign
> when they entered contractual agreements with the Kashrus agencies.]

Many of them are also well aware of the fringe nutjobs and their Jew
hating agendas. They have better things to do than waste time on them.

> What we learned next, pretty much floored me personally. I
> learned
> that major food companies throughout America actually pay a Jewish
> Tax
> amounting to hundreds of million of dollars per year in order to
> receive protection.
>
> [While I take exception to the words "tax" and "protection",
> the above statement is fairly accurate, though I have never found a
> reliable source citing the dollar amounts involved.]

So the number is wrong, it isn't a tax and protection is not part of
the arrangement, but otherwise Waldope thinks the statement is
accurate!!

Such is the delusional nature of Jew hating conspiracists.

> This hidden tax gets passed, of course, to all non-Jewish consumers
> of
> the products.

> [Actually, the "tax" gets passed on to *all* consumers of the
> products, but as non-Jews outnumber Jews at a ratio of 49 to 1, you
> can
> guess who bears the bulk of the cost.]

All costs get passed to consumers and Waldope knows quite well that
Jews are not the only purchasers of Kosher food.

> The scam is to coerce the companies to pay up or suffer the
> consequences of a Jewish boycott.

> [I have seen no evidence to support the above statement, ]

Of course there is no evidence to support Waldope's claims either, but
then he is protective of his own falsehoods.

[and believe
> that it is false. However, Jews are by far the most powerful wealthy
> and minority in the US, and there is no doubt that the captains of
> the
> foods industries are well aware of the power and influence Jews have
> in
> the areas of finance, advertising, media, etc. In other words, they
> would not need a "boycott' to make big trouble for any one of these
> companies if they so desired.]

Businesses do not share Waldope's paranoia about Jews and seek Kosher
certification because they believe it will help their business.

> Jewish consumers have learned not to buy any kitchen product that
> does
> not have the (U) the (K) and other similar markings.
>
> [This is true, although only a tiny fraction of the Jewish
> population
> (less than one million in the US) actually "Keeps Kosher",
> eschewing all non-Kosher products.]

Therefore, it is not true.

> Another shocker was learning who is actually behind these
> sophisticated "Kosher Nostra Scams." It turns out that the
> perpetrators
> of these elaborate extortion schemes are actually Rabbinical
> Councils
> that are set up, not just in the U.S. but in other western countries
> as
> well. For example, the largest payola operation in the U.S. is run
> by
> those who license the (U) symbol. The (U) symbol provides protection
> for many products sold here in Aztlan and in the United States. This
> symbol is managed by the The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations
> with headquarters at 333 Seventh Avenue in New York City.

> [Quibbling over their choice of words aside, all of the above is
> true]

In other words, Waldope doesn't differ too much from these nutjobs!

> The scam works like a well oiled machine and is now generating
> vast
> amounts of funds, some of which are being utilized by the Union of
> Orthodox Rabbis to support the Ariel Sharon Zionist government in
> Israel. The website of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations is
> full of pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian propaganda.

> [Again, all true.]

Then Waldope will have no trouble telling us what these vast amounts
are.

> The "Kosher Nostra" protection racket starts when an Orthodox
> Rabbi
> approaches a company to warn the owners that unless their product is
> certified as kosher, or "fit for a Jew to eat", they will face a
> boycott by every Jew in America.
>
> [I doubt the above. ]

Gee, but Waldope's not sure!

[Rather, I believe that the Kashrus agencies rely on
> their ability to misrepresent the potential increase in market share
> that "going Kosher" will afford the prospective "client". ]

But Waldope has no evidence they misrepresent anything.

[There
> is ample evidence to support this.]

Sure there is!

[Also, as Jews are the worlds most
> famous (and potentially dangerous) "Victim Class", they have a
> great advantage in the form of "guilt leverage". On can imagine
> that any manufacturer who resists the advances of the Kashrus
> agencies
> is met with "What's the matter? Do you have something against
> Jews?" The fear of being accused of "anti-Semitism" is not
> unfounded, is it?]

Of course. More of the fact based argument which so distinguishes
Waldope's conspiracy theory from the other conspiracy nuts he calls
"ignorant".

> Most, if not all of the food companies, succumb to the blackmail
> because of fear of the Jewish dominated media and a boycott that may
> eventually culminate in bankruptcy.
>
> [This may be exaggerated, but is it that far-fetched? Worldwide
> Jewry
> led an international boycott against the nation of Germany that
> began
> in 1933. The boycott hurt German industry and its people greatly,
> and
> was largely responsible for the tensions that set the stage for
> WWII.]

There was no worldwide Jewish boycott, nor even a unanamous Jewish
support for a boycott. This is historically ignorant, but it fits with
Waldope's nutty world view.

> Also, the food companies know that the cost can be passed on to the
> consumer anyway.

> [They certainly can - and they are. And +- 98% of all of these costs
> are born by non-Jewish consumers - the vast majority of which have
> *no*
> interest in Kosher, or are even aware that the scheme exists.]

But since Jews are not the only people who buy Kosher products, this
piece of data is irrelevant. Futhermore, consumers pay lots of costs
which they might not like to pay for simply because the manufacturer
wants to incur the costs. The only difference with the small costs of
Kosher certification is that Jew haters want to have something to
bitch about.

> The food companies have kept secret from the general consumer the
> meaning of the (U) and the amount of money they have to pay the
> Jewish
> Rabbis.

> [As I mentioned earlier, the companies are so tight-lipped WRT
> Kosher,
> that one must assume that the secrecy is enforceable via contractual
> agreement between the companies and the Kashrus agencies. ]

They are so secret about it they put a well known symbol on their
packaging!

[Also, the
> fees paid directly to the Kashrus agencies are likely relatively
> minor
> when compared to the peripheral expenses that companies must endure
> in
> order to comply with the demands placed on them by the Kashrus
> agencies, which may include changing suppliers of raw materials,
> hiring
> additional staff/ overtime, acquiring additional equipment or
> building
> new facilities, implementing Kosher mandated downtime, redundant
> procedures based solely on Jewish superstitions, or paying for the
> full-time presence of one or more employees of the Kashrus agencies
> to
> oversee the operations. ]

Just words. There is no substantial cost with virtually any of these
for the vast majority of products. And what costs are involved are
unknown to Waldope, but known in detail by the companies who assess
the advantages they might gain by Kosher certification. And unlike
Waldope, these professional business people, thousands of them in
hundreds of companies, are quite well able to judge the benefits of
all costs they incur.

>[A few million here, a few million there, and
> pretty soon, you're talking about a serious amount of cash.]

But Waldope doesn't have a clue how much he's talking about. What does
that tell you about his argument?

> It is estimated that the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations,
> which manages the (U) symbol protection racket, controls about 85%
> of
> the "Kosher Nostra "certification business. They now employ about
> 1200
> Rabbi agents that are spread through out the U.S. Food companies
> must
> first pay an exorbitant application fee and than a large annual fee
> for
> the use of the (U) copyright symbol.

> [A separate fee for each item, or barcode. $$$$]

How much?

> Secondly, the companies must pay separate fees each time a team
> of
> Rabbis shows up to "inspect" the company's operations. Certain food
> companies are required to hire Rabbis full time at very lucrative
> salaries.

> [All true]

A tiny fraction require full time inspectors, and most products are
easily certified. True, perhaps, but not accurate.

> The amount of money that the non-Jewish consumer has paid the
> food
> companies to make up for the hidden Jewish Tax is unknown, but it is
> estimated to be in the billions since the scam first started.
>
> [I have researched this topic in-depth, and considering that some
> 85%
> of ALL packaged consumer products now bear a Kosher Seal, I estimate
> the costs (fees plus expenses) to be billions of dollars
> *annually*,
> especially when mark-ups are figured to the retail level]

In other words, the Jew hater doesn't have a clue how much it costs,
for even one company, let alone the entire food industry.

> The Orthodox Jewish Councils as well as the food companies keep
> the
> amount of the fees very secret.The Jewish owned Wall Street Journal
> wrote about the problem many years ago, but they have stopped
> writing
> about it now.
>
> Only public awareness concerning the "Kosher Nostra Scam" will
> eventually help stop this swindle of the American consumer.

> [I agree whoeheartedly]

Of course the Wall Street Journal is not Jewish owned. And none of the
dozens of industries or thousands of companies who provide services to
other companies publically discuss their fees. This only becomes
sinister when we're talking about Jew haters and Kosher certification.

> Public education of the scam may lead to an eventual non-Jewish
> boycott of all products with the (U), (K) or other Jewish protection
> symbols. I certainly do not need to pay extra for "kosher water",
> "kosher coffee" or "kosher plastic sandwich bags".
>
> [Indeed, the products mentioned above are by their very nature
> EXEMPT
> from Kosher. They have a neutral status, and the fact that these
> types
> of products ARE routinely found to be certified is a testament to
> the
> greed, graft and corruption of the Kashrus (Kash-R-Us) industry.]

They require certification if the manufacturer wants to sell Kosher
products. And if the products are "exempt", the cost to certify would
be practically nothing. In any event, it's the manufacturer's
decision.

> In fact, I demand my money back for all the money I had to pay
> over
> the years for the hidden and illegal Jewish Tax. Are there any
> bright
> attorneys out there that could bring a class action suit against the
> Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations on behalf of the citizens of
> Aztlan and other non-Jewish people?
>
> [I have as much use for Aztlan as I do for the Kash-R-Us industry.
> Both
> are fakes and frauds, and contrary to the best interests of the
> citizens of the United States of America.]

Just about how normal people feel about Waldope.

__________________________________
>
> [<end article that Mikkelson intends to "debunk">]
>
> [<Begin Mikkelson's pathetic attempt at "debunking" the previous
> article>]
>
> Origins: Folks search for proofs of their darkest imaginings
> everywhere, including on the shelves of grocery stores. Packages
> bearing marks whose meanings aren't readily apparent to the average
> shopper have been interpreted by those always on the sniff for a
> Jewish
> conspiracy as signs that Big Business is in league with the Jews.
>
> [As the Kosher system is administered solely by Jews, and as it
> works
> solely for the *interests* of Jews (including the Kashrus agencies)
> it
> is true that "Big Business is in league with the Jews", isn't it?
> As to sniffing for a "Jewish conspiracy", it appears that this
> qualifies, doesn't it?]

Obviously it doesn't work soley in the interests of Jews, but works in
the interests of food manufacturers. That's why they seek the
certification. The only thing Waldope smells is his own BO.

More of Waldope's "less ignorant" argument.

> The rumor that the presence of those mysterious markings signifies
> that
> the manufacturers of those products have paid a secret tax to the
> Jews
> of America has been afoot for decades;
>
> [Again, discounting the word "tax", this rumor is absolutely true,
> isn't it?]

Removing the key word of course renders the statement meaningless.

> the e-mail quoted above is merely a recent manifestation of this
> age-old canard.
>
> ["Age-old"? CANARD???]
>
> The claim is wholly false, and we wonder at the twisted minds that
> would advance such a slander. There is no "Jewish Secret Tax" and
> never
> has been.
>
> [The claim is NOT "wholly false", as she herself will acknowledge
> below. Here Mikkelson uses the word "tax" in a pathetic semantic
> attempt to pooh-pooh the entire Kashrus scheme, which has pervaded
> the
> entire US foods industry like a fungus. Mikkelson is being
> dishonest,
> and she KNOWS it.]

Nothing she said is dishonest, as Waldope's inability to point to what
was clearly demonstrates.

> The markings pointed to in the rumor are real; however, their
> purpose
> is entirely different from the one asserted by the rumormongers.
>
> [Is it?]
>
> They do not signal that a secret tax has been paid or that
> corporations
> have succumbed to blackmail;
>
> [No, they signal that secretive *fees* have been paid, and that the
> corporation have either been duped or pressured into playing along
> with
> the Kash-R-Us scam, 98% of the costs of which will be born by
> unwitting
> non-Jewish consumers.]

No, they indicate that the product is Kosher.

Notice how the halfwit above called the whole thing secret and now
wants to claim the symbol signals "fees". How does it do that if it is
secret?

> [they are there to indicate to members of a particular faith that
> such
> items have been vetted as having met the strictures their religion
> imposes. ]

No they are there to indicate to those who wish Kosher food, the
purchasers of which happen to be more non Jewish, that the product in
question is Kosher.

>If the notion of a religion imposing dietary requirements
> upon its followers sounds like an outlandish proposition, keep in
> mind
> that only in recent times have Catholics taken to eating meat on
> Fridays, and that Muslims still eschew pork.)
>
> [This would all be good and well if the members of that "particular
> faith" (Jews) were footing the bill for their OWN queer eating
> habits, but they're not, non-Jews are, and the Kash-R-Us agencies
> are
> reaping fortunes in the process. No one subsidized the Catholic's
> abstention from meat on Fridays, and no one subsidizes the Muslims
> abstention from pork, do they?]

Again, it is the manufacturers who decide who foots what bills, and
what charges it wishes to incur in making its products. I don't know
anyone who wouldn't like less sodium in their canned goods, but
manufacturers believe they are better off filling their products with
unhealthy ingredients.

> As to what those markings mean:
>
> * The letter "K" simply means "Kosher." Kosher, in Hebrew, means
> fit or proper, and is generally used to describe foods that are
> prepared in accordance with special Jewish dietary laws. These laws
> are
> stringent and almost incomprehensible to those not versed in them.
>
> [I am well versed in these "laws", and they are nothing more than
> primitive religious superstitions. ]

We've seen how "well versed" Waldope is.

What they signify to the consumer varies, and what they signify to the
manufacturers is a benefit to their businesses. What Jew haters like
Waldope think of the religious aspects of Kosher foods is entirely
irrelevant.

I don't think you need to read much more to see that all Waldope has
is what every Jew hater has: his hatred.

He knows nothing about the costs of Kosher certification, and he
pretends that businessmen who are paid to make money are too stupid to
not be hoodwinked, while little ole Waldope has some special insight
into the nefarious and devious methods of Jews.

If that sounds like a kook to you, it is.

--
Philip Mathews