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Old 05-09-2006, 05:36 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:54:22 +0100, "pearl" wrote:

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On 2 Sep 2006 11:54:16 -0700, "pearl" wrote:

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On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:36:17 +0100, "pearl" wrote:

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On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother wrote:

wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:


This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay

It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.

"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.

The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.

Those who can't survive the dried environment would already
be dead,

Why would any amphibians that might be in the fields stick around
as the fields dry, and not go with or follow the water when drained?

I feel confident the main reason is also a reason why humans
get caught in floods: Because they don't know what's happening.
Also frogs who are on land and tree frogs who are on rice stalks
when the water goes out, obviously can't go with it. Even you
should have been able to figure that one out. Then there are
the creatures who are in deep parts of the water when the
draining occurs, so they are trapped in puddles and pools
afterward. And there're no doubt some who move along with the
water when it begins to recede even though they have no clue
what's going on, but get stopped by rocks, sticks, rice stalks,
mounds of mud etc so they don't go all the way with it. Those
are SOME of the reasons, and undoubtedly there are more.

That is all really absolute nonsense. Frogs are as mobile as the
next creature. Any there could easily move on as the fields dry.

How would they know what was happening? How would they
know where the water went? How far would they have to travel
in order to get to it? What would keep them from getting killed
by predators IF they hopped along trying to get there? What
would keep them from dehydrating even IF they did know where
to go, tried to get there, and didn't get killed by predators?

Hypothetical frogs are capable of anything, doncha know.


Not long ago you acted like you understood there are
frogs in rice fields, even commenting on them trying to get
people to believe that: "Any there could easily move on as the
fields dry." Back when you understood that there are frogs in
rice fields, can you remember how you thought they got there?


A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.


LOL. I mean: Why would they be in "the field margins", and how
would they get there?

yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
along.

Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
slaughtered year in, year out?

diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,

I bet! - you're a ready sucker,

LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
damn funny.

I've plenty of reason to believe that.


Like what?


I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.


I don't believe you, but would like to see you try.

You dis-believe without reason.


I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
people in general would have learned about it because research
teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
public like they do with other things of interest.


That has happened.


You're the only person I've ever known of to think so. Do you
always believe that btw, or do you sometimes think they don't
exist like you sometimes think there are no frogs in rice fields?

You and others like you ridicule everything.


Not everything, but that's more than you can comprehend
obviously or you wouldn't have made the claim.

and an unabashed propagandist.

and that was a question I asked him about. He said the water
they use to flood the fields comes from rivers and/or creeks
which have frogs etc living in them already. So they come from
upstream.

Why would they move from their established habitat? Some frogs
live near rivers or creeks, but they don't actually live -in- the water
of moving rivers and creeks, nor do they spawn in moving water.
Why don't you do a little research?

I'll just ask you what you asked me: where do they come from?
IF you think they don't get killed when the fields dry, but still think
they "easily move on as the fields dry", they're still GONE. So again,
where do you think they come from?

I don't think that 'they' are there!


But you did last week. Why did you think so last week but not
this week, have you any idea?


I said that some might be there.


You emphatically stated that you "don't think that 'they' are there!"
Now you're amusingly trying to pretend differently.

Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.


How many? How could you possibly have any clue? Present some
info from a reliable source to back up your absurd sounding claim.

You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
and sulk away from it.

You haven't answered the question.


Which one?


How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.


The only thing to suggest that diderot lied is YOU, and you're insane.
YOU need to explain why frogs and tadpoles could not get into rice
fields when they are flooded with water from rives and/or creeks.

And if his claims were true, a
seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.

Who would document it? Why?

Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..


So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?


Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.


So you're saying that people should give no thought to cds involved
with any type of crop production? How about wood and paper production?
Construction of roads and building? Mining operations? Production of
electricity?

If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
deaths caused by rice production.

diderot told wholesale porkies in order to try to blur the line
between deaths in crop production and in the livestock industry.

diderot told people about cds that you "aras" obviously
could not care less about, and in fact do NOT want people
to be aware of. Disgusting!!!

diderot told people lies about cds. And you swallowed it whole.

Animals are killed in rice production, and you disgustingly want
people to believe otherwise.

You claim they are, and without any evidence to substantiate those
outlandish claims, you disgustingly want people to believe it's fact.


As I said, I have seen grasshoppers etc hopping all over the
bush hog I've mowed with. If there were frogs as well they would
be doing the same. Rice harvesters being of different design
would allow for less hopping on the equipmet and make for more
going through it. I have presented pictures of frogs in rice fields:

http://tinyurl.com/z5fky


"rice visitor" - one frog.

http://tinyurl.com/gkdzo


one frog. looks like the field's been cropped..

http://tinyurl.com/zxf82


two frogs - could be anywhere.

http://tinyurl.com/goh3f


"Frog in the Rice". - one frog.

This animal is even called a Rice Frog:

http://tinyurl.com/jcr2v


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and he's sitting on a low branch.

so is this one:

http://tinyurl.com/hzl4v


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and that's certainly not a rice field.

and this one:

http://tinyurl.com/gh7cn


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and he's sitting on a massive rock.

This one is called a Rice Paddy Frog:

http://tinyurl.com/h49cy


I don't see where it's called a "rice paddy frog",
and that's certainly not a rice field either.


You probably won't be able to see it here either since
you only see and believe what you want to, but it's here
none the less in case more honest people have any
interest in the subject:

http://images.google.com/images?q=ri...=Search+Images

yet you absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
now claim that there are no frogs in rice production.


No. You absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
post pictures of individual frogs- most of which are clearly not
in rice fields, in attempted support of # hundreds of thousands.

__________________________________________________ _______
Fish, frogs, snails, insects, and other aquatic organisms that thrive in
conjunction with rice are a source of animal protein and essential fatty
acids. In addition, various kinds of livestock are supported by rice-based
systems. Ducks feed on small fish, other aquatic organisms, and weeds
within the paddy fields, while buffaloes, cattle, sheep and goats graze on
rice straw as their main food source in rice-producing areas.

http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/67607.html
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
__________________________________________________ _______
Thousands of frogs which keep BPH under check were caught from
paddy fields

http://www.indianspices.com/html/prodev_ipm.htm
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
__________________________________________________ _______
As I type, I am listening to the din of the thousands of frogs that inhabit the
rice field right next to my home

http://www.cosmicbuddha.com/adam/archives/000559.html
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
__________________________________________________ _______
at night we were eaten alive by the millions of mosquitoes that bred in the
paddy fields directly opposite and all around the camp. At night too there
was a deafening orchestra of thousands upon thousands of frogs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4221226.shtml
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
__________________________________________________ _______
when we opened the window at night, we heard thousands of frogs croaking
their spring song from the rice fields nearby.

http://www.webscapades.com/cust-feedback.htm
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
__________________________________________________ _______
During the late summer, you had to be careful where you stepped. Thousands
of frogs hopped around on the ground, a product of the monsoon season, and
the rice paddies that were everywhere. Patty hated to step on them, but
sometimes it just happened. The corridor and ready room floors were always a
mess due to frog guts from their boots.

http://ed-thelen.org/gatto_40-44.html
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ