> Sentence one there is proof that we are talking past one another. I'm
> talking about Hanyu. I'm telling you that you're wrong because this is
> something that I know a lot about. I did say that Hakka is diverse.

You assume I know little about Hanyu why, exactly? I can speak it,
write it, and I work using it...I also speak some Hakka.

> Zhuang and Hakka are totally different languages. Zhuang is similar to
> Thai and Hakka is Chinese (not putonghua, Chinese). Very few people
> still speak Zhuang, and my best guess based on what you have told me is
> that either a) you are attributing a false similarity to two distinct
> languages or b) your Zhuang friend is in fact speaking not Zhuang but a
> dialect of Chinese.

It's spoken widely by the Zhuang people in the Guangxi province and a
few different settlements in Yunnan and Guizhou. It is the one
minority language that has been the most widely studied, so it's far
from death. I never said that those two languages were the same, but I
did say that the language my friend speaks has some small similarities.

> > It is not commonplace to mention that Chaozhou language is a dialect of
> > Minnanhua. Come down to Chaozhou sometime and ask the locals there,
> > and see what they tell you.
>
> Sorry, it is commonplace among the informed to state that Chaozhou is a
> dialect of Minnan. I know that people in Chaozhou or Singapore are not
> necessarily aware of this.

Since the local people apparently aren't aware of the language they are
speaking, whom exactly is the "informed" state. It certainly isn't the
Chinese, according to you.

>
> > > Wenzhou language is also
> > > > something completely different than what we've talked about before.
> > >
> > > Wenzhou dialect is a dialect of Minnan that is close enough to what is
> > > spoken in Taiwan that I can understand it fairly well. See below.
> >
> > The Wenzhou language and some of the other languages in Zhejiang share
> > very little with Minnanhua...there could be a small population of
> > people that speak it, but I am unaware of them. I have little
> > experience with the peoples in Zhejiang, but they don't think they
> > speak a dialect of Minnanhua.
>
> I'm sorry, you're wrong. In northern Zhejiang people speak Wu dialects
> like Shanghainese and Suzhouhua, and in Wenzhou they speak a variant of
> Minnan. You can do little experiments yourself to convince yourself of
> this, since you seem to have access to people from Wenzhou and Minnan;
> just get each of them to count to ten and say a couple simple
> sentences.

Suzhou is in Jiangsu.


> > > > Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information.
> > >
> > > They get it from linguistics professors in PhD programs at major
> > > universities. I get it from a BA in linguistics and anthropology and
> > > from living and travelling in China, Taiwan and SE Asia and from
> > > constantly pestering my Chinese friends about the dialects they speak
> > > with their grandparents.
> >
> > That is to say that my BA in lingustics isn't as good as your BA in
> > lingustics? ;p I also currently live in China and can speak some of
> > several dialects and am learning more the longer I stay here. I just
> > cannot agree with you assertions on the lingustic power and how
> > widespread Minnanhua is. I have been to and spent much time in the
> > places that you mentioned, and there is little that you can do, or
> > those lingustic PhDs, to convince me that all of those languages are
> > that similar to Minnan language. When I get a PhD behind my name in
> > the future, maybe I will be able to convince you.
> >
> > > You
> > > > take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
> > > > Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
> > > > shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
> > > > area).
> > >
> > > I've spoken to someone from Wenzhou in Taiwanese and she understood me
> > > perfectly well, and as I mentioned earlier my Taiwanese is miserably
> > > bad, so you're wrong there (although, I did get some sidelong glances).
> > > Haven't tried it with anyone from Hainan but I hope to have the chance
> > > someday. I got a Hainanese-American friend to count to ten and say
> > > 'hello' and 'eat rice' in Hainanese, and it was obviously a variant of
> > > Minnan.
> >
> > I have several students and people in my company from Wenzhou and they
> > strongly disagree with what you have just said. I have also asked my
> > Taiwanese student and he is not exactly sure why you are saying the
> > things you are saying.
>
> That was remarkably fast considering our two posts were one hour apart
> and it's eleven o'clock at night in China.

What are you talking about? I had class at 7:15.
>
> The Minnnan language is simply not as
> > widespread as you think it is. The prevailing language that is spoken
> > in Hainan is Li hua; a minority language. Even the Han that live there
> > speak it; especially around the Southern areas like in Sanya city.
> >
> > Look, I am not here to bicker with you about languages. I am here in
> > China and I can use my limited BA skills to study the languages from my
> > first-hand experiences though my close friends, students, business
> > associates, and peoples local to the places we have mentioned. It is
> > natural to have disagreements, but I think you should visit the places
> > that you are talking about before you try to form hardened ideas in
> > your mind about the languages spoken there.
> >
> > Your telling me that I am "wrong" simply because I don't agree with you
> > isn't exactly that polite, is it?
>
> It's funny that your general distrust of anything Chinese doesn't
> extend to offhand comments made about languages by non-specialists.
> The problem seems to be that it is very difficult to convince you of
> anything. I don't feel like spending a lot of time explaining what a
> dialect is and proving all my other assertions, and I suspect that,
> even if I did, you wouldn't believe me, so I suggest you spend a while
> reading up on this and then we can discuss it later, if you still want
> to. If you can't get Ramsey in China then I would start with Hanyu
> Fangyan Gaiyao by Yuan Jiahua, which is a very good overview and shows
> how the methodology works.

My general distrust of most things Chinese comes from living in China
(Guangdong mostly)and seeing the way they do things. This has little
to do with my ability to understand or study their language. I have
looked at some of the texts you mentioned; are they completely 100
percent free from criticism, I think not.