Mydnight wrote:
> .
> >
> >
> > The Kejia language is far
> > > too diverse to actually be classified as a dialect of anything.
> >
> > Wrong, Hakka is a distinct dialect of Chinese, albeit a fairly diverse
> > one. There is of course the old debate over whether the different
> > branches of Chinese should be called dialects or languages, but I'm not
> > getting into that here.
>
> Your definition of Chinese is what, Putonghua? Don't tell me that I am
> wrong simply because you found some website online. The Kejia language
> has become eroded over about a thousand years and each place has it's
> own distinct accent and special words that they use. Just around my
> friend's hometown, each small place speaks a different version of
> it...you don't call that diverse?

Sentence one there is proof that we are talking past one another. I'm
talking about Hanyu. I'm telling you that you're wrong because this is
something that I know a lot about. I did say that Hakka is diverse.

> > It's
> > > origins come from as far North as Henan and most "original" kejia words
> > > have been eroded over the years by the prevailing languages that it has
> > > come in contact with. For instance, here in Southeastern Guangdong,
> > > the Kejia dialects have some aspects of Cantonese while in the Northern
> > > areas of Guangdong, it sounds older and more original and resembles
> > > some of the language that is spoken in Jiangxi. My best friend speaks
> > > a language that only about 3000 people can speak and some of it's finer
> > > points are competely different from Mandarian, Cantonese, or any other
> > > language dialect in Southern China. It more resembles the Zhuang
> > > minority language of Guangxi than anything.
> >
> > I don't think you'll find support for that anywhere, unless your friend
> > is a Zhuang-speaking Hakka or is confused about what he speaks, which
> > is pretty common in China.
>
> I find support in person. I have learned some of their language by
> talking to them face-to-face on a daily basis. I have asked some of my
> students that are Zhuang people about their language and there are some
> very interesting similarities. For instance, the numbers 1-10 sound
> very similar phonetically. My student in Guangxi and my best friend's
> hometowns are nearly a thousand kilometers apart...that's too far apart
> to be just coincidence.
>
> My friend is a Kejia...they can trace their family history back to the
> North.

Zhuang and Hakka are totally different languages. Zhuang is similar to
Thai and Hakka is Chinese (not putonghua, Chinese). Very few people
still speak Zhuang, and my best guess based on what you have told me is
that either a) you are attributing a false similarity to two distinct
languages or b) your Zhuang friend is in fact speaking not Zhuang but a
dialect of Chinese.

>
>
> > Chaozhou was settled by people from around what is now Xiamen during I
> > believe the Tang dynasty. 'Chaoshan' is the term for the dialect of
> > Minnan that is spoken in Chaozhou, Shantou and the surrounding area.
> > It is accurate (not to mention commonplace) to say that Chaoshan is a
> > 'dialect' of Minnan, because the homeland of Minnan is in southern
> > Fujian, hence the name Minnan, and because it was brought to Chaozhou
> > by emigrants from that area. This is exactly analogous to saying that
> > American is a dialect of English, but that English is not a dialect of
> > American.
>
> Chaoshan refers to the geographical area that encompasses Chaozhou,
> Jieyang, Shantou, and the areas around there; it is not the name of any
> specific language. The Chaozhou and Shantou languages both share
> similarities but are not exactly the same as that website states. The
> site didn't mention the countless variations that each area has, and it
> is simply countless. In China, one could take a lifetime to study the
> languages within a 30 mile radius. There are no absolutes; you should
> know that.
>
> It is not commonplace to mention that Chaozhou language is a dialect of
> Minnanhua. Come down to Chaozhou sometime and ask the locals there,
> and see what they tell you.

Sorry, it is commonplace among the informed to state that Chaozhou is a
dialect of Minnan. I know that people in Chaozhou or Singapore are not
necessarily aware of this.

> > > As for Hainan language, it resembles nothing to either of the languages
> > > we've talked about so far. Most people in Hainan speak one minority
> > > language or another, usually Li, just like the people on the mainland
> > > coastal city of Zhanjiang here in Guangdong.
> >
> > You are correct that many languages are spoken in Hainan. However, Han
> > Chinese people (as opposed to minority groups) who live on the coast of
> > Hainan Island are also descendants of Fujianese seafarers, and speak a
> > dialect of Minnan. This speech is referred to as 'Hainanese'.
>
> Have you been to Zhanjiang, Maoming, Yangjiang, or perhaps Jiangmen?
> Each of those towns are in the place that you mentioned, around the
> coast of Hainan and I have never heard them refer to their language as
> "hainanhua". The people in Zhanjiang speak Li, just like most of the
> local people on Hainan island. There are many Northerners that live in
> Hainan now that speak Putonghua. I have spent a considerable amount of
> time in Hainan as well as the areas around the coast on Guangdong, and
> I can tell you from firsthand experience that they do not speak
> anything that even resembles Minnanhua.

....

> > Wenzhou language is also
> > > something completely different than what we've talked about before.
> >
> > Wenzhou dialect is a dialect of Minnan that is close enough to what is
> > spoken in Taiwan that I can understand it fairly well. See below.
>
> The Wenzhou language and some of the other languages in Zhejiang share
> very little with Minnanhua...there could be a small population of
> people that speak it, but I am unaware of them. I have little
> experience with the peoples in Zhejiang, but they don't think they
> speak a dialect of Minnanhua.

I'm sorry, you're wrong. In northern Zhejiang people speak Wu dialects
like Shanghainese and Suzhouhua, and in Wenzhou they speak a variant of
Minnan. You can do little experiments yourself to convince yourself of
this, since you seem to have access to people from Wenzhou and Minnan;
just get each of them to count to ten and say a couple simple
sentences.

> > > Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information.
> >
> > They get it from linguistics professors in PhD programs at major
> > universities. I get it from a BA in linguistics and anthropology and
> > from living and travelling in China, Taiwan and SE Asia and from
> > constantly pestering my Chinese friends about the dialects they speak
> > with their grandparents.
>
> That is to say that my BA in lingustics isn't as good as your BA in
> lingustics? ;p I also currently live in China and can speak some of
> several dialects and am learning more the longer I stay here. I just
> cannot agree with you assertions on the lingustic power and how
> widespread Minnanhua is. I have been to and spent much time in the
> places that you mentioned, and there is little that you can do, or
> those lingustic PhDs, to convince me that all of those languages are
> that similar to Minnan language. When I get a PhD behind my name in
> the future, maybe I will be able to convince you.
>
> > You
> > > take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
> > > Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
> > > shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
> > > area).
> >
> > I've spoken to someone from Wenzhou in Taiwanese and she understood me
> > perfectly well, and as I mentioned earlier my Taiwanese is miserably
> > bad, so you're wrong there (although, I did get some sidelong glances).
> > Haven't tried it with anyone from Hainan but I hope to have the chance
> > someday. I got a Hainanese-American friend to count to ten and say
> > 'hello' and 'eat rice' in Hainanese, and it was obviously a variant of
> > Minnan.
>
> I have several students and people in my company from Wenzhou and they
> strongly disagree with what you have just said. I have also asked my
> Taiwanese student and he is not exactly sure why you are saying the
> things you are saying.

That was remarkably fast considering our two posts were one hour apart
and it's eleven o'clock at night in China.

The Minnnan language is simply not as
> widespread as you think it is. The prevailing language that is spoken
> in Hainan is Li hua; a minority language. Even the Han that live there
> speak it; especially around the Southern areas like in Sanya city.
>
> Look, I am not here to bicker with you about languages. I am here in
> China and I can use my limited BA skills to study the languages from my
> first-hand experiences though my close friends, students, business
> associates, and peoples local to the places we have mentioned. It is
> natural to have disagreements, but I think you should visit the places
> that you are talking about before you try to form hardened ideas in
> your mind about the languages spoken there.
>
> Your telling me that I am "wrong" simply because I don't agree with you
> isn't exactly that polite, is it?

It's funny that your general distrust of anything Chinese doesn't
extend to offhand comments made about languages by non-specialists.
The problem seems to be that it is very difficult to convince you of
anything. I don't feel like spending a lot of time explaining what a
dialect is and proving all my other assertions, and I suspect that,
even if I did, you wouldn't believe me, so I suggest you spend a while
reading up on this and then we can discuss it later, if you still want
to. If you can't get Ramsey in China then I would start with Hanyu
Fangyan Gaiyao by Yuan Jiahua, which is a very good overview and shows
how the methodology works.