Isabeau wrote
--
Wealth is in the imagination,
riches are in the heart and
magic resides in the soul.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Dave wrote:
> > usual suspect wrote:
> >
> >>Dave wrote:
> >>
> >>>usual suspect wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Dave wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Anon wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Dave wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Lady Muck wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>rick wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>"Fred" > wrote in message
> ternet.com...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Well, I wasn't trying to prove anything except that a non-vegan
> >>>>>>>>>>recipe
> >>>>>>>>>>is Off Topic on a group called alt.food.*vegan*.
> >>>>>>>>>>How about some posts about vegan food!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>=======================
> >>>>>>>>>That's my point. There are no real vegan foods when they come
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>from massive mono-culture crop operations and/or are imported
> >>>>>>>>>from all around the world. They are all tainted with massive
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>amounts of animals death and suffering. Why is it that vegans
> >>>>>>>>>have no problem killing animals and leaving them to rot, but spew
> >>>>>>>>>their hatred of those that at least put dead animals to good use?
> >>>>>>>>>And, to top it off, posting them to usenet contributes to the
> >>>>>>>>>death and suffering of many more animals.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>In article
> rthlink.net>,
> says...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for again proving that causing less suffering to
> >>>>>>>>>>>animals
> >>>>>>>>>>>is not a vegan concern. All they follow is a simple rule for
> >>>>>>>>>>>their simple minds, 'eat no meat,' regardless of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>consequences..
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Rick - sweetie. I haven't posted to you for a LONG time.Oh well,
your
> >>>>>>>>luck is IN today!
> >>>>>>>>I would be more concerned that the servers wear those dreadful
gloves
> >>>>>>>>and put their hands all over meat products then grab and shove the
> >>>>>>>>vegetarian products with the SAME gloves. Even if I ask for a
change of
> >>>>>>>>gloves it's TOO LATE, the veggie grub has been contaminated
already.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>One thing I have never understood is why veggies make such a big
deal
> >>>>>>>of things like this. The microscopic traces of meat that may
> >>>>>>>contaminate your
> >>>>>>>veggie food is not going to make the blindest bit of difference to
your
> >>>>>>>health
> >>>>>>>and you are not condoning or financially supporting the meat
industry
> >>>>>>>in any way by accepting the product. Apart from inconviniencing the
> >>>>>>>staff
> >>>>>>>and making vegetarians appear petty what do you hope to achieve by
> >>>>>>>objecting to it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Not that I'd mind grabbing YOUR little bit of meat, gloves or no
gloves.
> >>>>>>>>X
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>Dave,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>It's easier to understand once you go veggie. Your perception of
meat
> >>>>>>begins to change and after a while, even the idea of eating meat is
> >>>>>>unappetizing. For me, the reasons go beyond that. I have spiritual
> >>>>>>reasons for not eating meat which I've elaborated on in the past.
> >>>>>>Basically animals, even the ones that we eat, are God's children. I
> >>>>>>offer all of my food to God before i eat it and I would not want to
> >>>>>>offer God anything that contained even the slightest trace of the
body
> >>>>>>of his other children. it would be disrespectful. I will not even
eat
> >>>>>>cheese made with animal rennet even though the rennet is a product
only
> >>>>>>derived from animals.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>It may be hard to understand this if you could care less whether or
not
> >>>>>>animal products or flesh were in your food, but to someone who on a
> >>>>>>daily basis must inconveience him or herself to live a life style
that
> >>>>>>they feel is a moral or spiritual must, the idea of even a little
bit of
> >>>>>>meat is disturbing. I, and many other veggies, don't even like to
smell
> >>>>>>meat.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Although not strict veggie as such I'd hardly describe myself as
> >>>>>someone
> >>>>>who couldn't care less what is in my food. I abhor modern methods of
> >>>>>factory farming and try to avoid any products that offer financial
> >>>>>support
> >>>>>to such methods.
> >>>>
> >>>>Do you apply the same standards to other industries, or even other
forms
> >>>>of agriculture? For instance, do you refuse to drive vehicles that
were
> >>>>built on assembly lines? Do you refuse clothing made with materials
> >>>>derived from industrial processing -- whether synthetics refined from
> >>>>petroleum or natural fibers grown and woven "industrially"?
> >>>
> >>>Nope although where there is a choice I give preference to what I
> >>>perceive to be the more ethical option.
> >>
> >>Upon what standard is your sense of ethics based?
>
> Answer the question.
>
> >>>>What is it about modern methods of farming that makes it different
from
> >>>>any other economic activity?
> >>>
> >>>These other forms of economic activity don't involve raising animals
> >>>in what I consider to be unacceptable conditions.
> >>
> >>What's unacceptable about it?
> >
> > The welfare needs of the animals are treated as trivial compared
> > with their economic potential.
>
> According to whom? Have you stopped to consider that farmers get more
> for their goods when they're in top-notch condition and that animals
> raised in clean environs tend to be healthier and thrive, growing faster
> and fatter in shorter amounts of time? For once I wish you vegan nitwits
> would pull your heads out your asses and visit a farm to see just how
> close to the norm all your propaganda videos of abuse really are.
>
> Are veal calves kept in crates?
> Far from the four-sided "crate" portrayed by some activist
> groups, modern veal stalls are designed to partition the animals
> only up to the shoulder level, ensuring calves visual and
> physical interaction with their neighbors. Individual housing
> allows animals to receive their own feed, individual care and
> attention. Most importantly, individual housing stalls have been
> shown to help prevent the spread of disease by minimizing
> calf-to-calf contact. Calves can comfortably lay in a natural
> position, stand up and groom themselves.
> http://www.vealusa.com/info/faq.html


The last veal barn I visited did not exactly portray the type of environment
that you quote above and would have your readers believe. This particular
barn had 350 calves in it each individually caged with pipe to the length
and width of the calf only. They cannot interact with their neighbors for if
they are allowed to they may get sick from sucking or licking on their
neighbors and it will also distract them from their bottles or buckets of
milk. Each calf had a chain around it's neck that kept it facing towards the
center isle, the chain was just long enough to allow the calf to lie down
but not long enough to allow it to actually put it's head on the ground.
Each calf can stand, shift it's feet or partially lie down but only in the
one direction, they are unable to walk, jump, groom themselves or even turn
around, they are able to lie down but never in any comfort. Constantly fed,
their climate controlled environment. They are never fed anything but milk
or milk substitutes as anything else will make the meat dark and veal meat
must be light in color. When a few months of age they are whisked off to the
packing house where they are butchered. Veal is after all baby beef. Those
that are sick and not likely to get well quickly are dumped into a truck and
some while still alive stuffed into rendering barrels to await the rendering
truck at the packing house. Sick calves don't grow and they take up space
and time that healthy calves need. It's all about the buck. It's all about
the money. Do not believe for a minute that it's anything else. I myself do
not particularly like veal........it doesn't have very much flavor.


>
> Etc., etc., etc.
>
> >>>>Humans have always sought to maximize
> >>>>yields from the least amount of inputs -- and farming is one of the
> >>>>industries which was first to do it (farming reduced nomadicism and
> >>>>hunting/gathering).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I willingly endure the inconvinience of having to
> >>>>>avoid
> >>>>>certain products but I have never seen the point of inconviniencing
> >>>>>myself
> >>>>>further by refusing to eat salad sandwiches from Subway just because
> >>>>>the
> >>>>>people serving them have recently handled meat. I might feel
> >>>>>differently
> >>>>>if I had spritual motivations but I don't think most veggies do.
> >>>>
> >>>>So-called vegans are misanthropic rather than spiritual in their
> >>>>motivations. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt.
> >>>
> >>>
> >