Dave wrote:

>
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Dave wrote:
>> >>>>Do you apply the same standards to other industries, or even other
>> >>>>forms of agriculture? For instance, do you refuse to drive vehicles
>> >>>>that were built on assembly lines? Do you refuse clothing made with
>> >>>>materials derived from industrial processing -- whether synthetics
>> >>>>refined from petroleum or natural fibers grown and woven
>> >>>>"industrially"?
>> >>>
>> >>>Nope although where there is a choice I give preference to what I
>> >>>perceive to be the more ethical option.
>> >>
>> >>Upon what standard is your sense of ethics based?
>>
>> Answer the question.
>
> It isn't a set of easily identified black and white values, more an
> idea
> that when buying a product I like to consider not just the quality and
> the cost of a product but the effect the manufacture of that product
> had on humans, animals and the environment.

Do you drink coffee or consume chocolate?

>> >>>>What is it about modern methods of farming that makes it different
>> >>>>from any other economic activity?
>> >>>
>> >>>These other forms of economic activity don't involve raising animals
>> >>>in what I consider to be unacceptable conditions.
>> >>
>> >>What's unacceptable about it?
>> >
>> > The welfare needs of the animals are treated as trivial compared
>> > with their economic potential.
>>
>> According to whom? Have you stopped to consider that farmers get more
>> for their goods when they're in top-notch condition
>
> Sure. Have you stopped to consider the extra costs required to achieve
> top-notch condition for all their "goods".

The "extra costs" are marginal (when considering the scale) and superceded
by the increased profitability of running a "clean" operation. What part of
"more profitable" do you not comprehend? Fortunately, farmers get it even
if disinformed consumers like you don't.

>>and that animals
>> raised in clean environs tend to be healthier and thrive, growing faster
>> and fatter in shorter amounts of time? For once I wish you vegan nitwits
>> would pull your heads out your asses and visit a farm to see just how
>> close to the norm all your propaganda videos of abuse really are.
>
> I do not pay attention to animal rights propaganda videos. My
> judgements
> have been formed mainly from sources that you probably wouldn't accept
> (eg Animal welfare advocacy organisations)

I.e., propaganda videos and literature from AR groups. I rest my case.

> Visiting a farm and seeing what
> the owners of that farm decide to show you would not reveal all the
> welfare issues mentioned in the sources.

Why the hell not? Your eyes, ears, and nose won't lie. AR morons -- with
their radical agenda -- do.

> It would be a good idea though. I should do it sometime.

Especially if you're going to base your diet and nutrition on the claims of
radical ARAs.

>> Are veal calves kept in crates?
>> Far from the four-sided "crate" portrayed by some activist
>> groups, modern veal stalls are designed to partition the animals
>> only up to the shoulder level, ensuring calves visual and
>> physical interaction with their neighbors. Individual housing
>> allows animals to receive their own feed, individual care and
>> attention. Most importantly, individual housing stalls have been
>> shown to help prevent the spread of disease by minimizing
>> calf-to-calf contact. Calves can comfortably lay in a natural
>> position, stand up and groom themselves.
>> http://www.vealusa.com/info/faq.html
>
> Industry sources like the above suffer from the same problem as
> animal rights organisations. They're kind of biased.

They also have their own pics to show farm conditions. You can look at their
recent pics, or look at the same old black and white ones your AR groups
have been showing for the last 30-40 years.

>> Etc., etc., etc.
>>
>> >>>>Humans have always sought to maximize
>> >>>>yields from the least amount of inputs -- and farming is one of the
>> >>>>industries which was first to do it (farming reduced nomadicism and
>> >>>>hunting/gathering).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>I willingly endure the inconvinience of having to
>> >>>>>avoid
>> >>>>>certain products but I have never seen the point of inconviniencing
>> >>>>>myself
>> >>>>>further by refusing to eat salad sandwiches from Subway just because
>> >>>>>the
>> >>>>>people serving them have recently handled meat. I might feel
>> >>>>>differently
>> >>>>>if I had spritual motivations but I don't think most veggies do.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>So-called vegans are misanthropic rather than spiritual in their
>> >>>>motivations. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >