rick wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > rick wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> > rick wrote:
> >> >> > wrote in message
> >> >> oups.com...
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> snip...
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > No. No he's not.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond
> >> >> >> their
> >> >> >> initial
> >> >> >> refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes
> >> >> > by
> >> >> > buying
> >> >> > grass-fed beef.
> >> >> ==========================
> >> >> Really? tell us your proof. Step right up and demonstrate
> >> >> how
> >> >> just being vegan automatically causes no/less/fewer animals
> >> >> to
> >> >> die and less environmental impact that eating grass-fed
> >> >> meats.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I wasn't really thinking about comparing the amount of harm
> >> > caused by
> >> > the production of grass-fed beef with the production of
> >> > vegan
> >> > food. My
> >> > main thought was that both consumer choices involve
> >> > boycotting
> >> > factory-farmed beef, and the impact of this should be about
> >> > the
> >> > same in
> >> > each case.
> >> =========================
> >> No, it would not be. The vegan has no impact on the industry
> >> at
> >> all.
> >
> > Yes, he or she does, he or she diminishes the demand for the
> > product.
> ==========================
> No, they do not. They are non-participants in the product. Not
> buying a product you don't buy, and never will has no effect on
> the market.

Yes, it does. It reduces the demand.

> I consume no llama wool from the andes, never have
> and never will. The production of llama wool in the andes is not
> in the least affected by my non-participation. And, I especially
> have no impact on how the process is completed.
>
>
>
> > The buyers of grass-fed beef also diminish the demand for the
> > product.
> =====================
> No, they do not. The demand for beef is a demand for beef. The
> difference is the process, not the product.
>

They diminish the demand for factory-farmed beef (as vegans do) and
increase the demand for grass-fed beef (which vegans don't do). How you
individuate products is neither here nor there.

>
> > It is the same impact. The difference is that the buyer of
> > grass-fed
> > beef also contributes to the demand for a different product.
> ========================
> It is NOT a different product. It is BEEF.
>
>
> >
> >> Those that buy grass-fed meats are changing the way
> >> producers are raising cattle. Grass-fed meat is not an
> >> additional amount of beef on the market, it's a replacement to
> >> the industry norm. It is a growing segment of the industry
> >> and
> >> is being caused by those that purchase this alternative, not
> >> by
> >> those that do not participate. Why is this concept so hard to
> >> understand, unless of course vegans have an agenda that must
> >> be
> >> maintained at all costs, regardless of fact.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> But yes, the amount of harm caused by the production of the
> >> > food one substitutes for factory-farmed beef should be
> >> > considered as
> >> > well. I don't have a proof that either one causes less harm
> >> > than the
> >> > other. Gaverick Matheny's calculations carry some weight
> >> > with
> >> > me, but
> >> > they are just back of the envelope stuff and shouldn't be
> >> > taken
> >> > as
> >> > proof. If you have any evidence to offer on the matter, let
> >> > me
> >> > know.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
> >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> >> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
> >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> >> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
> >> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
> >> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
> >> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
> >> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
> >> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
> >> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
> >> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
> >> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
> >> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> >> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
> >>
> >>
> >> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
> >> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that
> >> there
> >> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
> >> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
> >> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
> >> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
> >> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
> >> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
> >> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
> >> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
> >> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
> >> dealing with power and communications.
> >> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> >> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >