> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> rick wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > Dave wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>>
>>
>> snip...
>>
>>
>> >> Modern methods of crop cultivation require significant
>> >> chemical imputs in the form of synthetic fertilizers
>> >> and *cides, which can harm the environment as a
>> >> result of their production, transportation and usage.
>> >> In order to maintain soil fertility and keep pests under
>> >> control in traditional organic systems crop rotations
>> >> are normally used. I don't know if there are crop
>> >> rotations available that produce human consumable
>> >> crops on all of the land all the time but in practise
>> >> grass-clover leys seem to feature rather prominently.
>> >> It surely makes sense to have cattle grazing on such
>> >> a ley, and producing milk at the same time and veal
>> >> and beef are then natural byproducts of this.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the
>> > cattle for
>> > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually
>> > reducing
>> > the number of animal deaths by doing this.
>> =========================
>> Quite easy to do when compared to your tofu meat substitutes.
>
> Do it, then.
=======================
I see you ignored the sites I posted. Not surprising. Look at
any mono-culture crop production and the corispnding product
processing required and then compare it to a nice grass-fed cow
that lives, dies, and is eaten all withing a few miles. But,
that aside, since you're the vegan that has declered that being
vegan is always better, it is up to you to provide that proof. I
just gave you one exapmple to start with.
>
>> And, if we don't have the 'right' to kill cattle for the food
>> we
>> eat, why do we have the 'right' to kill field animals for the
>> food we eat?
>>
>
> We don't have the right to kill animals unnecessarily.
========================
Really? Then again, why are you here on usenet. there are no
*real* vegans on usenet, hypocrite.
Probably we
> don't have the right to kill as many animals in crop production
> as we
> do. I would support efforts to reform crop production.
========================
Yet you do nothing to bring about any of those changes. If you
even tried to find out which foods you eat cause more/less death
and suffering you'd have a starting place. But you don't. You
haven't even thought about doing that because you have your
simple rule for your simple mind. As long as you have that,
you're smug and content to continue your bloody trek though life
spewing about meats.
>
>>
>> >
>> >> Animals can also benefit organic agriculture in
>> >> various other ways. For example, manure is
>> >> recognized as a good fertilizer, ducks like
>> >> eating slugs and pigs can dig over a patch to
>> >> remove weeds prior to planting.
>> >>
>> >> >From a least harm point of view, using any
>> >> reasonable criteria, I feel sure that
>> >> supermarket/resturant grains, legumes,
>> >> vegetables and nuts compare favourably
>> >> with supermarket/resturant meat, eggs
>> >> and dairy products but I think the best
>> >> option of all is to source both plant and
>> >> animal products from local organic farms
>> >> that you can trust, fish from handline
>> >> fisheries and nuts and wild plants from
>> >> local woodlands.
>> >
>> > I'm not altogether convinced about the animal products from
>> > organic
>> > farms. I think in most cases these would probably lead to
>> > more
>> > collateral deaths overall because of the extra land use.
>> ==============================
>> Why? You suggesting that regular animals of the fields can't
>> live in pastures with cattle? Replacing mono-culture crop
>> fields
>> with pastures to graze cattle would *reduce* CDs. There is no
>> way that you can say that more animals are going to die from
>> pasture grazing that mono-culture food production.
>>
>
> Davis estimates that 7.5 animals/ha die in ruminant-pasture
> food
> production.
=====================
The problem I see with that is that no where does he consider the
animals that are left with no food or cover after all the crops
are harvested. The ones under discussion are the ones that get
get sliced, diced, shredded, poisoned and dis-membered. The
problem is that there can be many many more that are left to die
from starvation and predation. The surrounding areas cannot
support the excess numbers because they will already be at their
carry capacity. Fields can have up to thousands of voles per
acre in some years. That's per acre, not per the whole field.
>
>>
>> The fish is an
>> > interesting suggestion. I'm not sure about that one. It
>> > would
>> > be nice
>> > to see some research done on this topic to determine what
>> > really causes
>> > the least harm.
>> =====================
>> It isn't the veggies you eat...
>>
>
> Show me some evidence.
=================
What? the ones you already ignored?
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>
>>
>> >
>