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wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>> Knead more by hand.
>
> I've kneaded by hand; I don't have time for it.

Then, as kindly as I can say it, don't try to make bread. Bread takes
its own time to be right. It can't be rushed and still get the quality
of result. My suggestion for you to knead was for you to slow down and
get a feel for the dough. Your hands can tell you more about the dough
than your eyes. You seem intent on making it an automatic thing and I'm
afraid it doesn't work that way.

> Large bakeries have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They
> don't take it out and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to
> this that someone is capable of verbalizing.

Large bakeries are using very different ingredients, equipment, recipes
and techniques than you are.

You're trying to make it too much of an intellectual, abstract situation
and my sense is that baking can't be thought of that way. Once again,
I'll say that different doughs have very different characteristics. You
can't extrapolate a single set of criteria for them all.

>> Check out those books I mentioned in my earlier post - libraries
>> are good for that.
>
> Well my library has only one of them ...will get it next time. Also
> they have a good video that I've seen once and need to see again;
> "La Rosas [art of fine bread]"(or something). Also I recently got
> from our library Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's apprentice" That's a
> good one isn't it?

Yes, it is. And there are lots of good online sites about baking. And
some bad ones. After reading a dozen or so, you'll begin to see which
are authoritative and which are blowing smoke. But there's no substitute
for greater knowledge and more hands-on experience when considering bread.

Pastorio